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spiderppig
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Posted - 2008.04.09 08:55:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Julia Newmatar
Originally by: FarScape III Edited by: FarScape III on 09/04/2008 08:35:45 No one says remove it completely in the 1st place.
IMO it just needs to makes sense to be more fun though. Like to not be given after your ship got blown up by Concord or something close to that if that does not work out some how.
It has nothing to do with the hi sec ganker blowing anyone up and them being mean, they are fine, let them keep doing it, it is fine. Just the insurance is mind numbingly stupid. And messes up the economy.
This has been discussed a lot in the past, please try not to re-post someone else flawed arguments about insurance, insurance has been proven to take money out of the economy and introduce none, what it does do is mitigate the amount of isk leaving the economy during a ship loss, nothing else.
Your babes can i Haz em?
btw woot!!! to the second page of my first general discussion thread
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Julia Newmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.09 09:00:00 -
[32]
Originally by: spiderppig Id like to thank you all for making my last nite of work this week go by so much faster
I dont mind the idea of voided insurance payouts but there is a few things overly generalized by this change. Bc in Hi-sec you can still gank a hauler in a untanked thorax and die to the gate guns befor concord arrives. Technically u should fall under the voided insurance but no concord on the mail. So CCP would have to include sentry guns on a mail as voided insurance. Which in turn affects low sec piracy with the gate guns with the potential of completly destroying low sec of its only redeeming value as a pvp playground.
comments are much appreciated aswell as sugestions as to what would work to fix this.
I'm just guessing here since I have not seen the actual code, but I would think an illegal action would trigger a Concord response immediately, seeing as the warning pops up when you don't have it disabled. and Concord simply takes their own sweet time depending on sec status to respond.
This being the case, no actual concord involvement would be necessary to deem an illegal action in high sec as such, remember the point here is that any illegal action in high sec nullifies your insurance payout.
Why only in high sec? for role playing purposes here lets assume that what your insurance company doesn't know, wont hurt you, so if concord does not report an illegal action to them, they will not be holding back any payouts.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.04.09 09:02:00 -
[33]
Originally by: spiderppig Lol to the dumb enough to turn off that dialog box
That box causes more issues while pvping in low sec when it gets reset back on. and who really here once they enter hi sec turn that dialog back on?
You may have a good point, there. But two things... first: I haven't turned it off in three years, and haven't had any issues with it. On the rare occasion I have wanted to break the law I just click Yes.
Second: what newbies are PvPing in lowsec? I thought you were looking out for their interests, not the average low-sec pirate. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
spiderppig
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Posted - 2008.04.09 09:06:00 -
[34]
i know 1 solution that will stop about 85% of all suicide whine threads. You ready for the punchline?
remove autopiloting
yeap i said it remove autopiloting
make those pudge digits work my bear freinds its time you learned how to warp to zero.
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spiderppig
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Posted - 2008.04.09 09:09:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: spiderppig Lol to the dumb enough to turn off that dialog box
That box causes more issues while pvping in low sec when it gets reset back on. and who really here once they enter hi sec turn that dialog back on?
You may have a good point, there. But two things... first: I haven't turned it off in three years, and haven't had any issues with it. On the rare occasion I have wanted to break the law I just click Yes.
Second: what newbies are PvPing in lowsec? I thought you were looking out for their interests, not the average low-sec pirate.
Who says i have to play favorites to the noobs i mean seriously the dialog box can kill you or cause you to miss out on a engagement in low sec. newbies in low sec omg its so forbidden u must have 30million skill points to go there and be able to fly a dreadnaught.
Pirates have feelings too you know
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Cpt Branko
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Posted - 2008.04.09 09:09:00 -
[36]
Originally by: spiderppig But how is it actually a isk faucet anyways seems more like someone is repeating someone elses unfounded and bass ackwards thoughts too me.
Originally by: Julia Newmatar
This has been discussed a lot in the past, please try not to re-post someone else flawed arguments about insurance, insurance has been proven to take money out of the economy and introduce none, what it does do is mitigate the amount of isk leaving the economy during a ship loss, nothing else.
You two are both stupid and confusing ISK with assets (they're not the same, nubbins).
Let's say there's 100M ISK in the economy and a Hurricane.
1) initial state: ISK in economy = 100M 2) I buy Hurricane for 33M. ISK in economy = 99,66M (Sale tax goes out of it) 3) I insure Hurricane for 10.9M. ISK in economy = 88.71M 4) I get blown up. ISK in economy = 125.21M
Get it now? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
spiderppig
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Posted - 2008.04.09 09:10:00 -
[37]
now does ccp spawn you huricanes because last i checked it didnt for me
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Julia Newmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.09 09:15:00 -
[38]
Originally by: spiderppig i know 1 solution that will stop about 85% of all suicide whine threads. You ready for the punchline?
remove autopiloting
yeap i said it remove autopiloting
make those pudge digits work my bear friends its time you learned how to warp to zero.
Ok, when you AP through high sec with a billion isk of loot in your hold, you deserve to be suicided, but seriously, as a high sec suicider who's obviously good at it, do you really believe it's impossible or even much harder to suicide a non AP warp to zero pilot?
Yes it requires different tactics, but it's very far from impossible.
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Cpt Branko
Surge. Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.09 09:18:00 -
[39]
Originally by: spiderppig now does ccp spawn you huricanes because last i checked it didnt for me
You have no bloody clue about the distinction between ISK and assets do you now?
When people say 'ISK faucet' they mean 'ISK faucet'.
ISK != Assets.
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spiderppig
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Posted - 2008.04.09 09:25:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Julia Newmatar
Originally by: spiderppig i know 1 solution that will stop about 85% of all suicide whine threads. You ready for the punchline?
remove autopiloting
yeap i said it remove autopiloting
make those pudge digits work my bear friends its time you learned how to warp to zero.
Ok, when you AP through high sec with a billion isk of loot in your hold, you deserve to be suicided, but seriously, as a high sec suicider who's obviously good at it, do you really believe it's impossible or even much harder to suicide a non AP warp to zero pilot?
Yes it requires different tactics, but it's very far from impossible.
its not impossible your right but its about 5-10 times harder to catch and kill them. LOL while waiting on a freighter gank 1 group spotted a hauler WTZ with 300mil in datacores. Other group waitted for the pilots name and insta gibbed him before he could warp off. Also the freighter gank got borked as someone had logged off whithout telling anyone. Freighter lived with 5% structure we had to organize a 4 man brutix squad to get him while pods blocked him in. 1 brutix too pull concord away from the gate other 3 to finish it off. Then someone decided theyd add all the mods to a jet can and our freighter couldnt pick em up.
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spiderppig
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Posted - 2008.04.09 09:28:00 -
[41]
Edited by: spiderppig on 09/04/2008 09:28:54
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: spiderppig now does ccp spawn you huricanes because last i checked it didnt for me
You have no bloody clue about the distinction between ISK and assets do you now?
When people say 'ISK faucet' they mean 'ISK faucet'.
ISK != Assets.
isk and assets are quintasentually one and the same. look at it more this way isk is like minerals and the huricane is.... well like a huricane. 1 is in raw form easily usable while the other is specialized. but u can break the hurican down to both either minerals or into isk buy selling it.
so no extra cash into the economy just conversion of wealth in game
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Julia Newmatar
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2008.04.09 09:28:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: spiderppig But how is it actually a isk faucet anyways seems more like someone is repeating someone elses unfounded and bass ackwards thoughts too me.
Originally by: Julia Newmatar
This has been discussed a lot in the past, please try not to re-post someone else flawed arguments about insurance, insurance has been proven to take money out of the economy and introduce none, what it does do is mitigate the amount of isk leaving the economy during a ship loss, nothing else.
You two are both stupid and confusing ISK with assets (they're not the same, nubbins).
Let's say there's 100M ISK in the economy and a Hurricane.
1) initial state: ISK in economy = 100M 2) I buy Hurricane for 33M. ISK in economy = 99,66M (Sale tax goes out of it) 3) I insure Hurricane for 10.9M. ISK in economy = 88.71M 4) I get blown up. ISK in economy = 125.21M
Get it now?
Wrong.
You can't base economic impact on a single scenario, what about insurance policies that lapse, T2 Insured ships that only receive a small fraction of the value of the ship in insurance payouts etc.
Also the insurance system does not exist in a vacuum, not to mention the fact that economies, including that of eve is not based purely on the cash in circulation but rather on the monetary value of the economy as a whole, in your scenario, the Hurricane would have an economic value 36.5 million isk, when the ship was destroyed the economy was reduced by that much before the isk was injected into it. |
spiderppig
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Posted - 2008.04.09 09:32:00 -
[43]
this just in some of the words im using im not sure if they mean what i think they mean.
but yeah sounds good in my head so ill continue
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Touc hmebits
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.09 09:33:00 -
[44]
TBH, i had a long idea about secure cans, but **** it, if people afk haul, then tough. If something really is worth that much to you, then W20 and be done with it. Space aint safe. leave the game as is.
TMB |
spiderppig
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Posted - 2008.04.09 09:34:00 -
[45]
what was your idea about secure cans?
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Cpt Branko
Surge. Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.09 09:52:00 -
[46]
Originally by: spiderppig
isk and assets are quintasentually one and the same.
No they're not. Duh. If CCP gave everyone 500000 trillion ISK, could buy a Titan + 10 officer fit Machariels?
Originally by: Julia Newmatar
You can't base economic impact on a single scenario, what about insurance policies that lapse,
I've never ever ever had a insurance policy lapse. I don't think anyone who really PvPs (and why would someone who doesn't pay for premium insurance?) has ships which survive that long.
Losing ships is not a matter of if, it's a matter of when and odds are (if you are insuring at all) that you'll lose them before the insurance period expires.
Originally by: Julia Newmatar
T2 Insured ships that only receive a small fraction of the value of the ship in insurance payouts etc.
Doesn't matter. Insuring T2 ships is worth it too (unless they're 10+km/s crows or whatever). You pay less and you get less, but whip out your calculator and you'll figure out you're better off if you insure them.
Originally by: Julia Newmatar
Also the insurance system does not exist in a vacuum, not to mention the fact that economies, including that of eve is not based purely on the cash in circulation but rather on the monetary value of the economy as a whole,
If I print 123231231312364858043589345828493289472894723$ and give them to everyone, did it make us all richer?
Originally by: Julia Newmatar
in your scenario, the Hurricane would have an economic value 36.5 million isk, when the ship was destroyed the economy was reduced by that much before the isk was injected into it.
Omg.
The fact that 36.5M appeared in the economy magically creates a inflatory pressure on the economy (of course, we handily match it with production so it doesn't really show), and so does the fact that 33M of minerals actually dissapeared from the economy.
Most people don't pew-pew, they mission run and build ships and stuff, which prevents us from having a noticeable inflation (as assets are very abundant). |
spiderppig
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Posted - 2008.04.09 09:58:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: spiderppig
isk and assets are quintasentually one and the same.
No they're not. Duh. If CCP gave everyone 500000 trillion ISK, could buy a Titan + 10 officer fit Machariels?
Originally by: Julia Newmatar
You can't base economic impact on a single scenario, what about insurance policies that lapse,
I've never ever ever had a insurance policy lapse. I don't think anyone who really PvPs (and why would someone who doesn't pay for premium insurance?) has ships which survive that long.
Losing ships is not a matter of if, it's a matter of when and odds are (if you are insuring at all) that you'll lose them before the insurance period expires.
Originally by: Julia Newmatar
T2 Insured ships that only receive a small fraction of the value of the ship in insurance payouts etc.
Doesn't matter. Insuring T2 ships is worth it too (unless they're 10+km/s crows or whatever). You pay less and you get less, but whip out your calculator and you'll figure out you're better off if you insure them.
Originally by: Julia Newmatar
Also the insurance system does not exist in a vacuum, not to mention the fact that economies, including that of eve is not based purely on the cash in circulation but rather on the monetary value of the economy as a whole,
If I print 123231231312364858043589345828493289472894723$ and give them to everyone, did it make us all richer?
Originally by: Julia Newmatar
in your scenario, the Hurricane would have an economic value 36.5 million isk, when the ship was destroyed the economy was reduced by that much before the isk was injected into it.
Omg.
The fact that 36.5M appeared in the economy magically creates a inflatory pressure on the economy (of course, we handily match it with production so it doesn't really show), and so does the fact that 33M of minerals actually dissapeared from the economy.
Most people don't pew-pew, they mission run and build ships and stuff, which prevents us from having a noticeable inflation (as assets are very abundant).
As for who pvps and has BS insurance run out that would be me i have lost 2 hyperions and a mega that where insured but they surivied so long the insurance ran out.(BTW ive lost only 8 BS in 17 months so far 3 of em ran out of insurance fairly hi odds that it happens more often then u think)I currently have a raven and a domi about to run out on there insurance if not allrdy have.
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Touc hmebits
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.09 10:08:00 -
[48]
along the lines of
A secure can, only 1 per ship due to (insert lose reason here) hold 3000m2 and does not show the content on a cargo scan, only that the can is there. Now the gankers has an option take the risk that there is more than 1 part of trit in the can, or maybe shiny things :)
Anyways, prob been said b4 but hey.
TMB |
Cpt Branko
Surge. Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.09 10:18:00 -
[49]
Originally by: spiderppig
As for who pvps and has BS insurance run out that would be me i have lost 2 hyperions and a mega that where insured but they surivied so long the insurance ran out.(BTW ive lost only 8 BS in 17 months so far 3 of em ran out of insurance fairly hi odds that it happens more often then u think)I currently have a raven and a domi about to run out on there insurance if not allrdy have.
Well, it takes 3 insurance periods for insurance to become a ISK sink, which is a really really long time for any ship.
I have a habit of insuring only the ships I actually actively fly, and when I fly a ship, I fly it a lot (since PvP is the only thing I do, so eh) - only ship which almost had its insurance expire was a Cynabal (didn't fly it much except when it was really needed, but got drunk this one time and, well, piloting faction ships while drunk is a bad idea).
A ship within its insurance period in my hands is likely to see anything from 200-300 kills and tons of use. Nothing is going to survive even close to that.
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spiderppig
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Posted - 2008.04.09 10:24:00 -
[50]
i had a cynabal i pvped in i didnt bother insuring it at all surived for 6 months 199 kills. CNC 5 months 175 kills no insurance aswell got it for 120mill with 2 polys in it = win of a deal.
when i pvp i have 3-4 ships ready to go depending on the situation. I find RR BS's last well past there insurance periods. |
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Jones Maloy
Minmatar Unified Naval Command
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Posted - 2008.04.09 10:27:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Cpt Branko only ship which almost had its insurance expire was a Cynabal (didn't fly it much except when it was really needed, but got drunk this one time and, well, piloting faction ships while drunk is a bad idea).
win |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.09 10:40:00 -
[52]
Originally by: spiderppig
You have a few flaws in most of your arguements with implementing this.
First off there is no protection for newer players that accidently shot someone in hi-sec. Which if implemented ill predict that the EVE General Discussions forum will be filled whith whines of "CONCORD Ganked me in Hi-sec and i dont know why?!?!".
Well, I feel that the warning "are you really sure you want to do this stupid thing" (pharaprasing) is pretty clear.
If a new player decide to disable it it is his problem
Originally by: spiderppig
Second part of this is the goal of it is to stop suicide gankers buy making them losse money. Current normal gank brutix 21-23 million for the ship + platnium insurance(8-9 million unsure the exact ammount) + mods(7 million at the most) - insurance payout 25 million = about a 12 million isk lose per gank attempt.
With the insurance change 21-23 million for the same brutix + 7 million isk for the mods - zero payout = 30 million isk lose per gank attempt.
Now i ask the carebears is it worth it to cause less then 20 million in extra cost per gank or to have the added protection just in case you CONCORD yourself.
The goal is not to stop them or make them impossible (or at least that is the goal of a restricted minorance of teh carebears). The goal is to get a better balance between the cost for the ganker and the cost for the target.
Currently with a loss of 12 millions for a insured brutix with fittings it is possible to kill a 120 million hulk with 20 million in T2 fitting.
With a little luck or searching for the right target it is very easy to gain for this operation and the only real defence for the miner is to dock as soon as he see a possible attacker, with a serious impact on asteroid mining and a very large loss in ice mining efficency.
With the extra cost the balance point change. Gaining for killing a T2 fitted hulk become almost impossible but faction fitted hulks stay a rewavarding target.
Similarly the point where killing an industrial or transport become a rewardin activity isk wise change.
The guy running around with 1 billion in modules in a untanked industrial will still be a valid target, the relatively new players moving all his stuff to a new base in the same industrial (let's say a cruiser, some T2 module and some other stuff for 30-40 millions, with a probable isk value of the loot of around 20 million) become way less interesting.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.09 10:53:00 -
[53]
Originally by: spiderppig Bc in Hi-sec you can still gank a hauler in a untanked thorax and die to the gate guns befor concord arrives. Technically u should fall under the voided insurance but no concord on the mail. So CCP would have to include sentry guns on a mail as voided insurance. Which in turn affects low sec piracy with the gate guns with the potential of completly destroying low sec of its only redeeming value as a pvp playground.
Valid comment, but probably it can be combined with a sec level flag.
As soon as CONCORD is called the insurance is voided. So you don't need to get CONCORD in teh Kill mail, you only need to activate them.
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Arctur Ceti
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Posted - 2008.04.09 11:00:00 -
[54]
so this thread is about a possible hisec suicide ganker whining we keep insurance because otherwise the poor noob bears would suffer the most how thoughtful of you to keep the poor bears in your bestest of interests |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.09 11:05:00 -
[55]
Originally by: spiderppig
Now ive hered of this isk faucet you are referring to know as insurance. But how is it actually a isk faucet anyways seems more like someone is repeating someone elses unfounded and bass ackwards thoughts too me.
The definition of isk faucet is "something that increae the quantity of isk in the game" (not necessarly in the player wallet).
When you buy a ship the isk go to another player, they don't leave the game, you have only the tax and brokers fees isk leaving the game.
When you insure the ship you remove isk from the gane.
Whe your ship is destroied isk enter the game, for a platinum payout it is about x5 the insurance cost.
Let's make a example with approximate numbers for a 100 millions ship:
Player A buy from player B 100 millions move fron A to B, 1 million leave the game for trade tax.
- 1 million total isk in game
Player A insure ship and pay 20 millions. - 20 millions in game. So far 21 millions have left the game.
Player A fight and the ship is destroyed. Insurance payt 100 millions. +100 milliong in game. At this point 79 millions ave entered the game and the cycle can restart.
If you look the situationas it was before the start Player A has -20 millions in wallet, player B has +99, so player A has lost some isk, but the game as a whole has gained isk.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.09 11:15:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Julia Newmatar
Wrong.
You can't base economic impact on a single scenario, what about insurance policies that lapse, T2 Insured ships that only receive a small fraction of the value of the ship in insurance payouts etc.
Also the insurance system does not exist in a vacuum, not to mention the fact that economies, including that of eve is not based purely on the cash in circulation but rather on the monetary value of the economy as a whole, in your scenario, the Hurricane would have an economic value 36.5 million isk, when the ship was destroyed the economy was reduced by that much before the isk was injected into it.
Playing suicide ganker guarantee that the insurance don't lapse, T2 insured ship still pay more than the insurance value so they inject isk in the game, the wole term ISK faucet is referred to isk injection in game from outside sources, the increase of total assets by player has no relation to the increase of total isk in game, they are 2 different thing with different inflationari/deflationary effect.
The hurricane destruction remove assets and inject isk in game, with a strong inflationary effect.
Mining/producing introduce assets in game witout introducing isk and has a deflationary effect.
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.04.09 11:16:00 -
[57]
Originally by: spiderppig That box causes more issues while pvping in low sec when it gets reset back on. and who really here once they enter hi sec turn that dialog back on?
I missed my 1st pod kill because this had been reset.
Oh yeas I got Ganked by CONCORD in my 1st few weeks because I had it turned off. But it was in a frigate and, being an adult that knows what game he is playing, insurance did not really make or break the situation.
That is my $0.02 worth.
Slade |
Cpt Branko
Surge. Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.09 11:44:00 -
[58]
Originally by: spiderppig i had a cynabal i pvped in i didnt bother insuring it at all surived for 6 months 199 kills. CNC 5 months 175 kills no insurance aswell got it for 120mill with 2 polys in it = win of a deal.
when i pvp i have 3-4 ships ready to go depending on the situation. I find RR BS's last well past there insurance periods.
Yeah, nanoships don't really die that often... so you just don't insure them really (they're still a damn ISK faucet due to default insurance).
As for RR BS, well, they aren't that hard to break in small gangs (ECM does it quite well), and when did you ever hear of a 20-man remote repping pirate gang? You'd never make any sort of ISK that way ;P
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.09 11:52:00 -
[59]
Ah, the old insurance circular arguement, it seems like only days since the last one.
A: Remove insurance for concord kills because it makes suiciding risk free.
B: But there is still some loss if they get no loot, and the suicided ship gets insurance too, so they have lost nothing either.
A: But the victim has lost a millionty billion ISK in cargo and modules.
B: Then the suicider would have profited even without insurance.
A: Ah, but they do it without risk, they can gank anything because insurance covers their losses!
B: Most of their losses .. but if the target has no value then surely their insurance covers their loss too?
A: But, but, but, IT'S NOT FAIR!
B: No, it's Eve.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Gil sArne
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Posted - 2008.04.09 13:15:00 -
[60]
Originally by: spiderppig Edited by: spiderppig on 09/04/2008 03:35:45 You have a few flaws in most of your arguements with implementing this.
First off there is no protection for newer players that accidently shot someone in hi-sec. Which if implemented ill predict that the EVE General Discussions forum will be filled whith whines of "CONCORD Ganked me in Hi-sec and i dont know why?!?!".
Non issue, They get a free ship it will happen.
Originally by: spiderppig Now i ask the carebears is it worth it to cause less then 20 million in extra cost per gank or to have the added protection just in case you CONCORD yourself.
Yes
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