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Fitz VonHeise
The New Order. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.12 23:43:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Fitz VonHeise on 12/04/2008 23:44:09
(I appoligize if someone has already brought this up.. but I've been thinking about this for the past week)
The way the game has progressed is that CCP moves towards all types of T2 ships. The JF is the first of the T2 Cap ships. The market is unable to accomidate building just these ships (with other T2 ships). Imagine now T2 cap ships for every race and type of cap ship.
There isn't enough moon minerals to sustain building these ships. CCP will HAVE to fix this issue before they can allow other T2 cap ships into the game. |
Karanth
Gallente Eve's Brothers of Destiny Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.04.12 23:53:00 -
[2]
How do you propose they fix it? Many of the ways I've seen proposed would make bigger problems, or not wok.
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Tiswas
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Posted - 2008.04.13 01:03:00 -
[3]
Alchemy.
Turning useless moon minerals into useful ones.
Kind of a invention for high end moon minerals.
I don't know just thought I throw that our there.
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Elias Riikonen
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.04.13 01:05:00 -
[4]
So T2 ships and dys/prom would be more valuable then, and there'd be more fighting over good moons. I guess that's one valid way for the universe to work. There are scarce resources in the real world as well.
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Erah
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Posted - 2008.04.13 01:21:00 -
[5]
I really don't see this as an issue. T2 ships will just be rare and expensive as they are supposed to be. |
FastLearner
Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.13 01:44:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Fitz VonHeise Edited by: Fitz VonHeise on 12/04/2008 23:44:09
(I appoligize if someone has already brought this up.. but I've been thinking about this for the past week)
The way the game has progressed is that CCP moves towards all types of T2 ships. The JF is the first of the T2 Cap ships. The market is unable to accomidate building just these ships (with other T2 ships). Imagine now T2 cap ships for every race and type of cap ship.
There isn't enough moon minerals to sustain building these ships. CCP will HAVE to fix this issue before they can allow other T2 cap ships into the game.
I disagree. You appear to be starting from the assumption that T2 should be so common-place and cheap that everyone uses it all the time. If more demand for moon-mins is introduced then the obvious result is rising prices. Those lead to less demand - and a new equilibrium state gets reached - one where T2 costs a bit more and isn't used to the extent it is now.
Dumbing the game down by introducing more resources whenever they become scarce enough to be worth competing for isn't necessarily the way Eve has to evolve.
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Peri Stark
Gallente Blue Labs Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.04.13 01:54:00 -
[7]
We should not depend on CCP to "magicly" produce new resources to match advances in technology. ================================================
Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you! Vote Peri Stark for the CSM. |
IonHammer
Minmatar Black Avatar Lost Sheep Domain
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Posted - 2008.04.13 02:05:00 -
[8]
my empire pos is on a promethium moon, i thought it would be a good choice if the yulia convention on mining was ever changed. Hint hint.
Still there is ample supply just that its all controlled by cartel's so the price stays high.
0.0 warfare is expensive they got to get isk from somewhere to keep all those sov pos's up. |
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2008.04.13 02:16:00 -
[9]
Ferrogel is the lowest I've seen it in ages. Methinks it's still no issue, just a lot of manipulation going on at once. |
Kwint Sommer
Lothian Quay Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.13 05:20:00 -
[10]
Supply and Demand. Add more demand and to a limited supply and you'll see prices go up to compensate. T2 use to cost a lot more and EVE ran just fine. If they introduce T2 capital ships we'll see a return to something near those prices so I don't really see the problem. Substantially higher mineral prices would make ME and thus BPO's matter a lot more which would be a turn for the better. If anything T2 is too cheap and common these days....
Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals |
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Robacz
Essence Trade Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.04.13 07:36:00 -
[11]
I agree with others, it would be only good if price of moon materials and releated T2 products went up.
CCP should not mess with the economy this way... maybe introduce some expensive POS upgrades to increase moon output by few %s, but adding moons or changing other moons is just silly. These moons are strategic resource, they should not magically spawn around everytime price of material X exceeds price Y. |
Cergorach
Amarr The Helix Foundation
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Posted - 2008.04.13 08:01:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Robacz
CCP should not mess with the economy this way... maybe introduce some expensive POS upgrades to increase moon output by few %s, but adding moons or changing other moons is just silly. These moons are strategic resource, they should not magically spawn around everytime price of material X exceeds price Y.
While I agree that it shouldn't be linked to the price, I think it should be linked to active population (be that accounts or characters). If you have a resource in game that produces a maximum of x per hour and there are only y places in the universe your supply becomes limited with no possibility of expansion to cater to a larger population. The question becomes, when does the population of Eve become large enough to warrant such a resource expansion.
I don't think that changing moons is a good idea, adding moons I prefer (call them newly discovered celestial phenomena (new planet at the edge of a system with a few moons). I think it would be an even better idea if a whole new region was found. It might draw some more people to 0.0...
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Marcus Tedric
Gallente Tedric Enterprises The Star League
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Posted - 2008.04.13 08:12:00 -
[13]
Relatively soon you'll be able to Moon Mine in 0.4
That will effectively be adding more moons.
There will be more supply. I build Anshars just fine - T2 Component prices just affect the price I have to charge is all. |
Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.04.13 08:20:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Marcus Tedric Relatively soon you'll be able to Moon Mine in 0.4
Linkage to this? |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.13 12:14:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Peri Stark We should not depend on CCP to "magicly" produce new resources to match advances in technology.
Well. in EVE we can't develop alternate technologies to those in game.
In RL when a resource is too costly or unavailable we can search for an alternate production technique, alternate materials. Sometime the resulting item is not so good, sometime it is even better. In eve we are limited at what the Developer allow us to use and to the techniques the game allow.
So we depend on the Dev to allow alternate production methods (for example changing some reactions to use the other, less used, rarity 64 moon materials).
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zacuis
Great Big Research
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Posted - 2008.04.13 14:46:00 -
[16]
actually the t2 cap ships use quiet small amounts of the dysro/ prom complex reactions they tend to use huge amounts of carbides and the low end stuff so i think the op it totally wrong on this score.
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Fitz VonHeise
The New Order. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.13 17:25:00 -
[17]
Originally by: zacuis actually the t2 cap ships use quiet small amounts of the dysro/ prom complex reactions ...
There are ship builders here who have handy spreadsheets that calcuate the amount of materials used for various ships. Perchance they might use the JF's as an example of how much a cap ship might use and then extrapolate the amounts used for the other types of cap ships. Then mulitply that by the thousands of people that are going to want one.
I really do believe this will be an issue.
I have found just 12 Dys moons in all of low sec. I have paid (and have a standing challange to all if they know of any more) 100m for any Dys moon location in low sec. I have found only 12 moons. I know there are much more in 0.0 but 12 mooons in all of low sec is not a whole lot.
I submit that unless CCP changes the amount of Dys in the game or the amounts needed to make T2 ships in general that the price of Dys could rize well past 200-300k per. What would that do to the price of every T2 ship made?
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Fitz VonHeise
The New Order. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.13 17:35:00 -
[18]
Sorry just looked at the price of Dys. (I haven't recently).
Make that Dys could rise to even 400-500k per.
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Dal Thrax
Multiverse Corporation Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.04.13 20:01:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kwint Sommer Supply and Demand. Add more demand and to a limited supply and you'll see prices go up to compensate. T2 use to cost a lot more and EVE ran just fine. If they introduce T2 capital ships we'll see a return to something near those prices so I don't really see the problem. Substantially higher mineral prices would make ME and thus BPO's matter a lot more which would be a turn for the better. If anything T2 is too cheap and common these days....
Faction also use to cost a lot more. There are competing products now, unlike in the past. |
Melinda Bettin
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Posted - 2008.04.13 20:39:00 -
[20]
Every day when I wake up I ask God to seed more oil fields (especially under my property). There are more and more machines in the world which require oil, but there isn't enough oil to sustain these machines! God will HAVE to fix this issue before he lets any more machines into the world.
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Sarmea Moon
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.14 13:05:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Melinda Bettin Every day when I wake up I ask God to seed more oil fields (especially under my property). There are more and more machines in the world which require oil, but there isn't enough oil to sustain these machines! God will HAVE to fix this issue before he lets any more machines into the world.
Actually, new fields are still being discovered. New ways to pull it up as well. It's now financially viable to process the oil sands in Canada, if not environmentally ideal. One day we will be able to drill deep enough, that there might actually be some under your property 3 miles down. Of course, in most states you don't own what's under your property, just ask the guys in Montana whose property is being destroyed by the gas companies:)
We also have synthetic oil. I use it in my car. We have alternative technologies that don't rely on oil as well....
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleys, coshes 'em, and rummages in their pockets for loose bits of grammar. |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.04.14 13:09:00 -
[22]
Hmmmm... whose logic hammer is stronger... so hard to decide... STOP IT... you make me head hurt!
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
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Lex Alandar
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Posted - 2008.04.14 16:52:00 -
[23]
OK, since this is being dragged off topic, I thought I would contribute in that direction...
Extracting from the oil sands may fit the definition of "financially viable", but that's just deflecting from the fact that ripping oil out of dirt is quite simply a 'last resort'. I can't see why anyone would extract two barrels of oil for the cost of one barrel of oil if there was other options.
As far as the topic goes...the parallels are pretty amazing.
Only the most powerful corporations and alliances hold prom/dys moons, and I have personally witnessed wars fought over the possibility that one side held such a moon. Any form of expansion, whether it be mining array upgrades, new moons, etc. would only further benefit those who are already in control of this market.
The best idea in here so far, is to add reactions that can turn the less useful minerals into useful ones. This would expand the supply, while making it possible for smaller corps and alliances to have their place.
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Cergorach
Amarr The Helix Foundation
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Posted - 2008.04.14 16:56:00 -
[24]
How about a similar mechanic as Invention? Use Moon materials to generate a reaction and based on skills and equipment used the is x% chance that it turns into the desired material. |
Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.14 17:09:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Lex Alandar OK, since this is being dragged off topic, I thought I would contribute in that direction...
Extracting from the oil sands may fit the definition of "financially viable", but that's just deflecting from the fact that ripping oil out of dirt is quite simply a 'last resort'. I can't see why anyone would extract two barrels of oil for the cost of one barrel of oil if there was other options.
I think "first resort" is more accurate since that is the first thing they've actually done with the oil sands. If you're making ample profit, it doesn't really matter how hard it is to do.
Second, my take is that a reasonable approach is to introduce higher tech moon mining equipment and seed moons with resources that can only be mined with the new equipment (just like oil, new techniques means you can get at minerals that you couldn't before). Sure it might benefit more the current cartels, but I don't see a reason to change the status quo.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2008.04.14 17:23:00 -
[26]
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Random Elite
Caldari Immortalis Inc. space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2008.04.14 17:30:00 -
[27]
Ive been thinking about this for a while myself, In my mind haveing resources that can be fought over and cause wars is a good thing, its what eve is all about after all, problem is right now one moon is generating enough isk to buy a fully fitted dread per week at least and i think thats a little to much.
One idea i came up with was to keep the moons as they are where each moon has its available materials that are abundent therefore are mined at the rate of 100 units per hour as they are now, but to add to that, each moon could conatain trace elements of other materials, and to get these as mentioned before you need perhaps a special harvesting array and the amount gathered per cycle can be more random fluctuatiing between say 1 and 25 units per hour.
This way the moons that have dysprosium/promethium or whatever are still valuable assets but the price of the items can be kept more inline whith other materials and not spiral out of control as they are now.
Just my thoughts on the matter anyway
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Lorravan
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Posted - 2008.04.14 18:01:00 -
[28]
This is similar to the system I have been kicking around in my head. I think ideally each moon should have the other minerals present at varying abundance levels from .001-.10. To mine these would require a special module that cannot be active at the same time as a moon harvester. This would result in yields from 1 unit per 10 hours to 10 units per hour depending on abundance.
As the price of dys increased it would then become financially viable to mine lower and lower abundance levels until the price leveled off. This would make it similar to the oil sand situation, as long as the price is high it is worth mining. The extraction costs are then controlled by the cpu and pg requirement to run the module. Thoughts?
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Fitz VonHeise
The New Order. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.14 18:43:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Lorravan I think ideally each moon should have the other minerals present at varying abundance levels from .001-.10. To mine these would require a special module that cannot be active at the same time as a moon harvester. This would result in yields from 1 unit per 10 hours to 10 units per hour depending on abundance.
I like it....
There actually is a thread that I responded to where the Devs actually talked about the fact they were also thinking about this issue and what to do and asked for our input into the change. I will attempt to find that thread. |
Kwint Sommer
Lothian Quay Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.14 19:20:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
That gets my vote, to be quite honest. In the real world, when a resource sees as high a demand as dysprosium is getting you start finding substitutes/ways to produce it synthetically (aka. coal to oil) and you start tapping low yield reserves. Hence, moons should have low abundances of the rarest materials added and CCP should finally introduce T2 moon miners in order to extract them. Between those two things we'll finally have elastic supply.
Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals |
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