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Author	Topic
Anas Damona Caldari Splintered Shards of Europe	Posted - 2008.04.13 10:52:00 - [1] Ok, this was suggested before and shot to hell, this is a different idea but still based on the TV show 'Dragons Den.' Five mega-rich tycoons volunteer to be the dragons. Budding entrepreneurs come forward with business plans. Most are told to go back to school, probably in tears. Some get the money they need to try their plans. The cosmic dance of business goes on... So what do I need? 1. Dragons. If you can afford to give 100-500 million ISK to a relative newcomer, and can live with regularly telling people how ridiculous their ideas are, step forward! 2. Entrepreneurs. If you have a business idea, but don't have the funds to start it or the reputation to launch it publicly, get your pencil and legal pad out. 3. An audience. If this is of interest to casual spectators, please say so. If it isn't, feel free to say so too, but please accept others may enjoy this. Don't be one of those people who sits around moaning about how crap 'Big Brother' is! The format will be this: Dragons will volunteer and be introduced to the public. To qualify you need to be a financial heavyweight in EVE. Fame is not a requirement, but it would help! Entrepreneurs send their proposals to each dragon for review. Each dragon then writes their own analysis and offers funding, whatever amount they like at whatever rate of return they like. If several dragons make offers it is up to the entrepreneur to choose one. Ideally the investment will follow a fixed term, at the end of which the proposal, analysis and full details of the business will be made public. Proposals receiving no offers will be made public immediately, assuming to do so is considered entertaining. So why bother? What's to be gained from this? For the dragons, you get to see a bunch of business ideas first, and either invest exclusively, or just rip them off! For entrepreneurs, you can get funding to try out your ideas, and get started in EVE business and these forums. For me, I hope it will be entertaining. And no,I'm not looking for any money here, I'm just the host! Feedback welcome. /flameproof suit on /dragonbreathproof suit on
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.04.13 10:53:00 - [2] I obviously vote for Riethe to be the dragon.
Salisuka Caldari 98.4	Posted - 2008.04.13 15:17:00 - [3] If you choose the right dragons, I believe this can be very profitable for the individuals involved as well as the community as a whole. A voting process might be too long drawn but a simple two day long, "suggest who you think can/should play a dragon" should give you some names to start with. Very interesting idea and I hope you carry it forward.
Ava Santiago Minmatar	Posted - 2008.04.13 17:13:00 - [4] Edited by: Ava Santiago on 13/04/2008 17:15:03 This proposal fails. Dragon's Den is a way to gain extra revenue for venture capitalists engaging in the process of finding new investments (They are paid by the media companies). Without the ability to charge the Eve player base to compensate the Dragon for the chance that the business will fail due to other competitive entries essentially this system would increase the probability of never seeing a return. The advertising that Dragon's Den provides to the Entrepreneur is irrelevant in Eve. Because you can't do branded goods, or even determine who you trade with in advance, the market is largely commodity based. Because no one cares what the "brand" is on a generic good the entrepreneur also takes on additional risk for engaging in a public discussion of their business strategy. Someone could argue that "service" businesses like EBANK, Fury Bank, POS Fuel Delivery, or Chribba's third party activities would be possible models except that these models rarely require significant capital relative to the trust level and history of player running them. In other words, by the time you have built the reputation necessary to run a services/trust based business you probably have the isk to get one started. While potentially amusing, this proposal fails to meet the basic guidelines of a profitable business activity. A. Santiago Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts.
Riethe Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen	Posted - 2008.04.13 17:27:00 - [5] I want to be a dragon under the conditions that it is a competition between which entrepreneur does best and I can put down all the other dragons after mine does better. Also, I won't need to send any ISK to my entrepreneur. All the other dragons have like, office rental fees, supplies, wages, etc. We work on the street. Our net profit is our gross profit. Holla
Anas Damona Caldari Splintered Shards of Europe	Posted - 2008.04.13 23:40:00 - [6] Originally by: Riethe I want to be a dragon under the conditions that it is a competition between which entrepreneur does best and I can put down all the other dragons after mine does better. That would be the main reason to take part as a dragon I think! Originally by: Riethe Also, I won't need to send any ISK to my entrepreneur. Are you saying that you will form a new corp with the entrepreneur? That would actually be a great way to do it. Otherwise how will they receive the ISK?
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company	Posted - 2008.04.14 00:47:00 - [7] Edited by: Selene D''Celeste on 14/04/2008 00:48:27 I fail at posting =(
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company	Posted - 2008.04.14 00:48:00 - [8] Originally by: Anas Damona Originally by: Riethe Also, I won't need to send any ISK to my entrepreneur. Are you saying that you will form a new corp with the entrepreneur? That would actually be a great way to do it. Otherwise how will they receive the ISK? Note: While he may post reasonable opinions some of the time, Riethe is the local publicly-known scammer who rides the fence between having redeeming qualities and being a snide bastard. Please take what he says in context =P (No offense Riethe =D)
Riethe Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen	Posted - 2008.04.14 01:06:00 - [9] Originally by: Anas Damona Are you saying that you will form a new corp with the entrepreneur? That would actually be a great way to do it. Otherwise how will they receive the ISK? I am saying I can send my entrepreneur on their way to a 12 digit wallet balance starting with 0 ISK.
Duncan Bannatyne Machiavellian Intuition	Posted - 2008.04.14 09:25:00 - [10] I support this idea and wish to be involved.

Anas Damona Caldari Splintered Shards of Europe	Posted - 2008.04.14 10:51:00 - [11] Originally by: Riethe I am saying I can send my entrepreneur on their way to a 12 digit wallet balance starting with 0 ISK. Spoken like a true dragon! I suppose victory for a dragon in this would be to get the highest return of all, and from the lowest investment. Originally by: Duncan Bannatyne My only reservation is I would want some sort of security on my investment. As this game has no legally binding contracts, I wouldn't just give money to the people who impress the most. Simply because, this will just invite smart-talking social engineering experts to take advantage of the service. I can't see what guarantees can be made. I'd imagine providing an API key would be a requirement for every applicant, beyond that what else can there be? The very nature of this is to invite players who don't have rich friends who trust them, or the ability to do a public launch. If an entrepreneur has a good business plan that you would consider trying yourself then it's worth investing. If he takes off then you got scammed. One of the requirements for being a dragon is not getting fooled by scammers, and being able to recognise 'smart-talking social engineering experts.' No dragon would be under any obligation to invest in anyone, it would only happen if you are happy with the proposal, and the entrepreneur is happy with your offer. I will provisionally accept Riethe and Duncan as dragons, but I'll keep this open a bit longer and allow more feedback and ideas. Stay tuned!
Tanmoe	Posted - 2008.04.14 12:29:00 - [12] Love the show on telly. Guess it could a nice idea. EvE has what the idea need to succeed. Note that the beeb had an article on EvE a few weeks ago (it did start me on the game). Get the ball rolling here, manage ur PR properly and you could end up generating a whole lot of publicity for yourself (and the game ofc ;) )
DeathGrip Amarr Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.04.14 12:39:00 - [13] I tried this once with my Old PCT. The problem is when you advertise you are giving away isk everyone, and I mean EVERYONE tries to get some, and 95% of it is scams, the other 4% is garbage plans, and the last 1% you will never figure out because you probably denied them for being a scam.
Duncan Bannatyne Machiavellian Intuition	Posted - 2008.04.14 13:01:00 - [14] Originally by: DeathGrip I tried this once with my Old PCT. The problem is when you advertise you are giving away isk everyone, and I mean EVERYONE tries to get some, and 95% of it is scams, the other 4% is garbage plans, and the last 1% you will never figure out because you probably denied them for being a scam. Again, this is why I say just giving away money without security is a bad idea. Whilst we are limiting our potential "clients" asking for security in the way of assets would be the best bet in securing this project. Whilst this sounds suspiciously like a loan system, we would not only be offering the finance, but the obvious business support from our own experiances, to ensure the entrepenour succeeds. Anyways, this is my 2cents and if it was done this way I believe it could succeed.
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.04.14 13:12:00 - [15] Although this idea has merits I think the major problem is, In eve you are not regulated by Laws, legally binding contracts etc. Now if at some point CCP GM's say "Free Form contacts are now legally binding and will be enforced by GM's and CSR's" then and ONLY then will something like this work. Now if only we could convince CCP to make freeform contacts binding.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2008.04.14 13:29:00 - [16] Personally, I find MD IPO launches in general to be pretty close to Dragons Den. Most get torn appart and a few get to walk away with a big bundle of isk from one or more of the MD regulars. It seems that the only difference between normal MD IPO launches and this idea, is that we are assuming that most people comming forward to pitch for this have no security to offer. That's not to say I wouldn't be interested in taking part as an investor, but I'd be doing so in full knowledge that I'd be going for something high risk and therefore I would be looking for high returns to justify it. I don't think anyone offering low % ROI need apply.
Anas Damona Caldari Splintered Shards of Europe	Posted - 2008.04.17 01:07:00 - [17] Ok, so Riethe, Bad Bobby and Duncan Bannatyne are interested in being dragons. The exact details of any investment would be up to the parties involved, so a dragon could ask for whatever security they like. If the entrepreneurs want money, they'll have to take the best deal they are offered. If the dragons want a piece of the action, they'll have to make a good offer. Any other takers? I thought there's be more dragons out there...
Roguehalo Caldari RH Ship Brokers	Posted - 2008.04.17 04:56:00 - [18] Hmm you should do some research on Riethe before you so blithely accept him as a dragon. His association in any shape or form with this project will kill it stone dead before it even starts
Anas Damona Caldari Splintered Shards of Europe	Posted - 2008.04.17 06:55:00 - [19] Originally by: Roguehalo Hmm you should do some research on Riethe before you so blithely accept him as a dragon. His association in any shape or form with this project will kill it stone dead before it even starts I don't do anything blithely, thank you very much! And what's the worst he can do? Rip every applicant to shreds and invest nothing? That's perfect!
Kwint Sommer Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.04.17 07:28:00 - [20] Originally by: Anas Damona Originally by: Roguehalo Hmm you should do some research on Riethe before you so blithely accept him as a dragon. His association in any shape or form with this project will kill it stone dead before it even starts I don't do anything blithely, thank you very much! And what's the worst he can do? Rip every applicant to shreds and invest nothing? That's perfect! Worst Case Scenario: He draws the wrath of everyone he ripped off towards your show. Between that hate and the general shunning of the MD community it would pretty much kill your show. Thus your show would be dead and, fair or not, you'd be tarred with the same brush as him.

Anas Damona Caldari Splintered Shards of Europe	Posted - 2008.04.17 12:46:00 - [21] Originally by: Kwint Sommer Worst Case Scenario: He draws the wrath of everyone he ripped off towards your show. Between that hate and the general shunning of the MD community it would pretty much kill your show. Thus your show would be dead and, fair or not, you'd be tarred with the same brush as him. I knew nothing about Riethe before this thread, but the more I read the more I think he is the 'bad guy' this endeavour needs!
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.04.17 12:55:00 - [22] Originally by: Anas Damona I knew nothing about Riethe before this thread, but the more I read the more I think he is the 'bad guy' this endeavour needs! Critical and hostile is more what you are looking for... which in truth Riethe does bring that to the table. He also brings "criminal" to the table as well. He's abused the trust of the community and constantly flaunts it. So go ahead - demonstrate your good sense by putting this community's equivalent of Charles Manson on your little venture. At this point I'm thinking you've got nothing more to lose. And if you do, Riethe will find a way to take it from you.
Anas Damona Caldari Splintered Shards of Europe	Posted - 2008.04.17 13:37:00 - [23] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Anas Damona I knew nothing about Riethe before this thread, but the more I read the more I think he is the 'bad guy' this endeavour needs! Critical and hostile is more what you are looking for... which in truth Riethe does bring that to the table. He also brings "criminal" to the table as well. He's abused the trust of the community and constantly flaunts it. So go ahead - demonstrate your good sense by putting this community's equivalent of Charles Manson on your little venture. At this point I'm thinking you've got nothing more to lose. And if you do, Riethe will find a way to take it from you. I'm a hard bitten space ***** with nothing left to lose! You make it sound so dramatic, I posted an idea for a bit of fun based on a TV show on the forums of an internet spaceships game and now you're saying this dude is gonna come over and butcher my family? The worst case is this goes nowhere and I do something else. The best case is I have some fun and so do some other players. Either way I'd say the drama factor is manageable.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.04.17 13:49:00 - [24] Nothing dramatic. I've avoided this thread for the most part simply because it interests me very little. I just thought I share with you the simple "don't sell your credibility away so cheaply". Get tagged as a Riethe associate, no one will want to deal with you. No one here, at least, and since this is where you are posting I thought it might matter. /washes hands
jongalt	Posted - 2008.04.17 19:42:00 - [25] im pretty sure riethe doesnt need anybodys approval for anything he does. admitting he scammed is worth loads more than easy moralism in my book. but hey we're all different. too bad he's not running for CSM... -jg.
Riethe Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen	Posted - 2008.04.17 19:46:00 - [26] Look, if you want to freak out about anything, freak out about the fact that there will be little mini-Riethe's as a result of this. All of them ready to ask for collateral on a ferrogel shipment, or offering incredible interest on vague business ideas. Oh, and as much as you insist on denying it, if someone knows the tricks, I guarantee the majority of people are more than willing to participate in theft, especially in anonymous spaceship games.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.04.17 19:56:00 - [27] Originally by: Riethe Oh, and as much as you insist on denying it, if someone knows the tricks, I guarantee the majority of people are more than willing to participate in theft, especially in anonymous spaceship games. Oh I don't deny it in the least. I totally agree with you mate. Of course part of that fact is why I have as much success as I do without having to compromise. And my points regarding you are nothing about insulting you in the least. I'm just telling it like it is and let the chips land where they may. To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Riethe Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:44:00 - [28] Originally by: Shar Tegral Get tagged as a Riethe associate, no one will want to deal with you. Well, I don't think Anas has anything to worry about here. But I suppose whoever gets assigned to me should probably understand the consequences. Which are probably immediate. And dire. And your internet spaceship life will be over as you know it. And people will evemail you constantly and want to talk to you. And you get donations because people think you're "kewl." And you make all these interesting friends who share neat ideas and ask for your input. And all this other stuff that is so miserable and I hate it. Someone halp.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2008.04.18 08:19:00 - [29] Edited by: Bad Bobby on 18/04/2008 08:24:32 Edited by: Bad Bobby on 18/04/2008 08:19:35 Personally, I have no issue with having Riethe on the panel. In fact, I feel the venture would be far less entertaining without him. That's not to say I would trust him as far as I could spit him, or would advise anyone else to. This thread is about having a little fun with some spare isk and nothing more. Although the forum drama exhibited here does give it a few free bumps so, please, continue to freak out as much as you wish. In any case, I would expect Riethe would be superbly qualified to spot a scam... which I expect will be at least 90% of what we see here... so as far as I am concerned his credentials are more than adiquate.

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