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Author	Topic
Lisento Slaven Amarr The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2008.04.17 00:50:00 - [31] EVE is not fair. Gate camps are a way to gain an advantage. If the corporation you belong to does not have the means to bypass the gate camp either by removing it or going around it, then do the next best thing... Wait till it's gone? You do have options available to you which you can use that require teamwork and the ability to communicate with people around you. Even the map will tell you with "relative accuracy" where the hotspots are. You can always fly in with a shuttle or have someone scout you too which has been considered the traditional way to travel with expensive stuff for a long time. And if you're in low-sec put on a ton of warp core stabs and hope you don't run into a heavy dictor...or use a scout again. I would prefer to see more ships with jump drives in all honesty, on a smaller scale. I do not enjoy chokepoints but that is the system EVE uses. --- Put in space whales!
Efdi Minmatar Research Unlimited	Posted - 2008.04.17 02:04:00 - [32] Hahaha, Eventy got owned but had to resort to petitioning because he's a pansy.
Rogerano Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.04.17 02:26:00 - [33] looool... So gate camping is for the cowardly, inept, and dishonourable? Well gee, I guess those stinging words will inspire at least one hundred and twenty-three (I estimate) pirates to give up their game. Gates are ISK portals, a bit like an ATM. A bright light flares up and whamo! Some ISK pops out in-front of you. Sometimes the ISK gets a bit cranky or has some ISK-buddies hanging around but that's just all part of the fun. :) Time to dismount from your high-horses and / or come down from the moral high-ground (and join the unwashed, dishonourable, inept and cowardly masses). It's just a game.
Commander 598 GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.17 02:52:00 - [34] WTF does war have to do with this? I am 99.99999999999999999999999% certain that this complaint is about lowsec gate camping, 0.0 is a non issue. Lowsec has sentry guns that are harmless in a big enough ship and for some reason you can't anchor bubbles in lowsec. Suggestion: De-nerf sentries and allow bubbles. The phrase "Low Security" means that there should be SOME security, as it currently stands it might as well be unconquerable 0.0.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.17 09:26:00 - [35] Originally by: Mikal Bishop I understand the free form nature of the game is what makes is so great. How ever I don't understand from a gameplay point of view and from a game world logic point of view why gate camping is allowed with no retribution. In a player-driven environment, 'no retribution' is a lie. The advantages gatecamp-busters have over pirates camping the gate is stupendously high... and there are anti-pirates (mostly noob blobbers) and other pirates (yay, competition) who want to kill your gatecamp at times. Generally, if we camp for, say, 2 hours, odds are we're going to have to run away at least once (anyone who's not up to the ball gets to die, happens at times) because someone is trying to gank us. The fact that, unlike our victims, we scout and know the procedures (and therefore rarely lose ships at camps unless we're risking them volountarily to try to gank a hard target under sentries) is a wholly different thing. Originally by: Mikal Bishop I also understand the low security areas add excitement and a risk vs reward aspect to the game. I believe in that. However to have no chance what so ever when jumping into a system is very discouraging. Uhhh, you have. I must've jumped into (hostile) gatecamps with various ships ranging from frigates/AFs to BCs roughly 100 times in my pirating carieer, and when people attack me they don't get gcc or sentry aggro (because I'm -10), meaning they can use inties and all the good stuff. I've only gotten caught once (it was Veto, the bastards, they were on both sides of the gate and had inties and at the time, I didn't have T2 guns on my cane to give the inties a bit of Barrage M loving). It's not like jumping in a low-sec gatecamp is insta-death. Frigs just warpoff, you can't lock em in time. Cruisers burn back to the gate (or away from the camp, generally a better solution) very easily. BCs can burn back to the gate almost always, and sometimes burn away as well (Hurricane burns away from BS camps with ease). Originally by: Mikal Bishop We accept it because we have a chance to play our way out. Gate Camping does not offer such a chance. But, it does. So rather then post whining threads, ask the people who fly their bleeding ships in low-sec all the time and jump in camps regularly on how to avoid them. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Opertone Caldari Simtech Productions	Posted - 2008.04.17 10:26:00 - [36] oh i only don't like the fact that the gate campers prefer to jump though and log when they see and equal opposing fleet if the gate campers accepted all the fight and sat there... no they simply dock up and logg when you try to bust them the same applies to nano fleets in 0.0 ok, we want to bust a red gatecamp... reds jump one system out and sit there, we go home, reds come back, we come again... they leave wartargets camp badgers, we bring a gang... they dock up this is a little too good to be true... you can escape combat at any time, thanks to warp to 0 now also you can logg off which doesn't happen in any other online game, when you log off you loose in eve logging off saves your ship, i want the logg off, jump out and dock up to be nerfed a little bit for example giving an aggression to a player will restrict ninja docking cloaking running and doing dirty stuff you want a fight, you get a fight - that's a better concept... this only will be more entertaining, i hate these badger campers who run away when they see a single crow
Ellaine TashMurkon CBC Interstellar The Unseen Company	Posted - 2008.04.17 10:51:00 - [37] Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 17/04/2008 10:55:50 Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 17/04/2008 10:51:41 If people kill when they have advantage and run for safety if not, thats very good for their FC, it means it plans well, quickly and precisely evaluates tactical situation and chances, has good scouts and is good at not falling to baits. If he's cautious but gets kills, it means you have bad scouts, plan your actions poorly, cannot put effective baits in use and cannot evaluate situation and chances too well. Basically, you loose. At least you can call him a coward on forums ;) Ok, in fact keeping cloaking nano gags safe is much too easy. But thats a very different topic ten gate camps. Also, gate camps and busting gate camps is one of best places to get some nanoships killed. Keeping a gate camp safe is not easy, really. You're in lowsec? Use baits and get sentries for your advantage. You're in 0.0? Use dictors and boubles to catch them runing. I see gate camps busted daily :) Eve pvp tactics is not only about those 20 seconds up to 15 minutes of shooting ships, its also the art of logistics, planning, choosing fleet composition, hunting area, right targets in right places - all to organise whole hours in fleet to get maximum kills, minimum looses, minimum boredom and maximum fun. Some people are good at it, others not. If someone gets a "fair" fight and gets kicked, he's not a cool brave knight, his just bad at the planning game I've described above and not able to get the needed advantage. (for example, my corp is pretty bad at it and we have heavy looses all the time because we often fail to assess enemy gangs strenght right. I'm not really proud of my fleets bravery when we loose a few BSes stupidly. But we're getting better over time :)
Tawrich Tistrya	Posted - 2008.04.17 12:19:00 - [38] I see some error in logic in alot of posts. First the assumption that eve should be fair , it's not , shouldn't be , and hopefully nvr will be. The 2nd thing i'd like to adress is the fact that most anti-gatecamp post come with the msg that when i warp thru a gate and there is a camp there is no chance in a 1 vs 15 situation. Well there still are chances you can escape , heading back to gate , being quick enough with warping out , having stabs and such , it's just hard(er). Also this is a multiplayer game , the whole basis is that you coordinate your actions with others , you know your going thru gates where on the other side there might be a camp , not sure send a scout , are you sure , don't go thru. Offcourse getting gank at a gate is annoying as hell , thats part of the reason for ppl to do it ( i would prolly aswell if i was into pvp more ), but you know this can happen so be prepared. Everyone should already know that in reality your not safe anywhere in eve , even the most extreme carebears prep up to fight off those pesky lil belt rats , why is it then that when people get into a situation by themselves where they get outnumbered they start crying out "unfair" followed by "nerf". Yes it's unfair , no don't nerf. You either beat em or join em. Find you own ways to get past gatecamps , use your brain insteads of your mouth to make it safer for you. As for me , whenever i take corp members thru highsec->lowsec gates i make sure i send thru a cov ops first. Quote: TRINITY + PATCH = EPIC FAIL QFT!
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.17 12:52:00 - [39] Originally by: Opertone oh i only don't like the fact that the gate campers prefer to jump though and log when they see and equal opposing fleet If they jump/log then just probe them out, kill them and pod them at leisure. Originally by: Opertone if the gate campers accepted all the fight and sat there... no they simply dock up and logg when you try to bust them Eh, yeah, we absolutely SHOULD accept the fight while being outblobbed, having sentries on us (which means, more tanked setups across the board, no proper tacklers/etc and you get 350 DPS addition automatically) and being most likely low on cap boosters and such due, to well, sentry tanking. Sure. It's up to you to outsmart us and catch us. Sometimes people do this successfully, sometimes they don't. Originally by: Opertone ok, we want to bust a red gatecamp... reds jump one system out and sit there, we go home, reds come back, we come again... they leave Because you bring a huge blob, people notice it and try to avoid it. If you saw a 50-man pirate gang jump in suddenly, would you stick around till it comes for you? I think not Furthermore, you're doing it wrong... try thinking like a pirate and you'll figure out what you're doing wrong. Originally by: Opertone also you can logg off which doesn't happen in any other online game, when you log off you loose in eve logging off saves your ship, i want the logg off, jump out and dock up to be nerfed a little bit Er, yeah, you just log off while agressed and you save your ship. Riiiight. You can't be that fail. Originally by: Opertone for example giving an aggression to a player will restrict ninja docking cloaking running and doing dirty stuff 15min GCC is bad already. It's a "oh, look, we'll waste 20% of your playtime because you're a pirate" mechanic. Basically, it sucks. Originally by: Opertone you want a fight, you get a fight - that's a better concept... this only will be more entertaining, i hate these badger campers who run away when they see a single crow I hate the sentries and the carebears who blob you, so? We should all go to a instanced dungeon with balanced numbers when you select 'fight' button. Serious. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Eventy One Magellan Exploration and Survey Phoenix Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.17 20:18:00 - [40] Originally by: Efdi Edited by: Efdi on 17/04/2008 02:05:45 Hahaha, Eventy got owned but had to resort to petitioning Dianeces because he's a pansy. Na, I didn't have to petition anyone. The mods find the idiot posts without my help.

Eventy One Magellan Exploration and Survey Phoenix Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.17 20:20:00 - [41] Originally by: Commander 598 WTF does war have to do with this? I am 99.99999999999999999999999% certain that this complaint is about lowsec gate camping, 0.0 is a non issue. Lowsec has sentry guns that are harmless in a big enough ship and for some reason you can't anchor bubbles in lowsec. Suggestion: De-nerf sentries and allow bubbles. The phrase "Low Security" means that there should be SOME security, as it currently stands it might as well be unconquerable 0.0. Commander 598, the sentry gun nerf may have been before my time .. what was the nerf?
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.17 20:36:00 - [42] Originally by: Opertone gate is a spawn point i want to fight on the battleground in one on one - 3 on 3 environment, i don't want 10 people attacking my defenseless badger, spawn point camping equals to spawn point killing or simply killing you blind this is not challenging, other games have equal opportunities, eve become more of 10 on 1 or run away of one from another PVP at gates is lame... i want PVP at asteroid belts, in the fight for the rare resources right now all the gat campers care of is 'hauler spawn' and 'freighter spawns' with casual 'faction BS spawn' gate camps are made to kill you and steal your possesions... you do not fight for influence or resources - how stealing is brave at all? stealing and killing - is all PVP in eve is about, even POS siege is intended to steal your moon and system who cares what you call it, semantical arguments are useless. ok not to flame but you want alot and none of it makes sense, you also have a very backward sense about what this game is all about... its nothing like you want or are writing here, its a cold harsh universe. that statement has been uttered by devs and everyone else. if you are caught with your pants down its not challenging your right, it sucks but thats life in eve, there is no arena there are no fair fights, if you fight fair you dont know what you are doing, doing it wrong, or on some kind of crusade which only the new players care about. its all about killing, your right again, and hopefully will always. gate camping is 1 aspect of pvp, small roaming is another, bring less pilots and get moar fights, dont focus on the failures you have in moving about, think of the failures you could have else where. if you want warp to a belt and people can kill you there.. I am not trying to be mean, but people don't get it or like it with respect to eve, so learn the core essence of the game and it will be fine
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:00:00 - [43] Originally by: Eventy One Originally by: Commander 598 WTF does war have to do with this? I am 99.99999999999999999999999% certain that this complaint is about lowsec gate camping, 0.0 is a non issue. Lowsec has sentry guns that are harmless in a big enough ship and for some reason you can't anchor bubbles in lowsec. Suggestion: De-nerf sentries and allow bubbles. The phrase "Low Security" means that there should be SOME security, as it currently stands it might as well be unconquerable 0.0. Commander 598, the sentry gun nerf may have been before my time .. what was the nerf? The nerf is there werent sentry guns, at all. So be glad they're there in the first place.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:01:00 - [44] Originally by: Hebik Fane Originally by: Opertone my proffession has become annoying the stupid pirates with stabbed viator... when they have a kill, i have the loot... it sucks to be a pirate then but i agree that more viewing options can be fun Honestly I doubt that since a HIC will still trap any viator you claim to be flying. It tells me you have not spent enough time in low sec to really know how it all works. I'd like to see a Hic lock my viator before it warps.
Hebik Fane Havoc Inc	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:51:00 - [45] You have never come across a remote sensor boosted HIC then. --------------------------------------------- Havoc Inc
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.18 05:27:00 - [46] Edited by: Gamesguy on 18/04/2008 05:28:57 Originally by: Hebik Fane You have never come across a remote sensor boosted HIC then. Still won't catch me, module activation lag is a b*tch.
Sabrina Al'Kian	Posted - 2008.04.18 13:37:00 - [47] I will have been a pirate for two years come august. And I've never ice gatecamped. While I understand the necesity of 0.0 camping, low sec camping is stupid and unfair. Not only are camps the primary reason people stay out of low sec these days, it's also not the only way to make a living (believe it or not, belt iracy can be very lucrative). Of course, if people want to camp that's their perogative, but I'd like to point out that there are pirates out there who respect a code of honor. Anyway, just add a third gun to low sec gates and the camping will go down.
Astria Tiphareth Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.21 10:35:00 - [48] Originally by: Hebik Fane I have camped plenty of gates in my time, and if you think it is for the inept or cowardly you have no idea what it takes to run a propper gatecamp. Scouting, fire control, local scanning, situational awareness and keeping good comms dicipline take a lot of time, practice and coordination. Trust me, if you just sit on a gate and shoot anything that comes thru you will soon be separated from your ship. Whilst it's clear that gatecamping done properly takes effort, that doesn't actually help towards the argument over whether it's the right approach or not. I'm not going to argue the morals of it - what interests me is whether the gatecamp as an allowed mechanism of the game is the right end result, or whether the game should be tweaked to promote more genuine PvP. Lets face it - gatecamping, as you say done properly, isn't PvP really, as the below slightly bizarre quote illustrates: Originally by: Rogerano Gates are ISK portals, a bit like an ATM. A bright light flares up and whamo! Some ISK pops out in-front of you. Sometimes the ISK gets a bit cranky or has some ISK-buddies hanging around but that's just all part of the fun. :) I'm not going to argue about how to make combat in EVE 'fair' because it isn't and shouldn't be. As Ellaine TashMurkon pointed out, arranging so that you have more ships in the right place to destroy the enemy without taking heavy losses is called... tactics (actually it's logistics but tactics is the more usual word used). The issue of whether gatecamping is too easy for the results you gain (risk vs reward) is one I'd like to see discussed intelligently. Another one that comes to mind is whether gatecamping or small gangs roaming is the preferred end result. Of course, for too many it's either a massive ISK sink or a massive ISK faucet, so the chances of reasoned debate are small. ___ "If you can't debate using logic & fact, and at least recognise other people's point of view, don't waste time posting on forums. It only makes you look like a teenage idiot."
Aeo IV Amarr	Posted - 2008.04.21 10:41:00 - [49] Perhaps gates should emit a ECM burst with a range of 25 km, and disrupting locks for a few moments. So long as your awake at the wheel you should be able to escape.
Brother Welcome Amarr Icarus' Wings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.04.21 11:15:00 - [50] Originally by: Opertone then this is not PVP... this is rapage//ownage... spawn killing, 10 on 1 PVP is when you both fight, QAUKE 3 arena is challenging PVP game, EVE is not challenging like that in Battlefield 2 you can fight in groups, solo and in large armies in EVE you can log off or be raped by 10 people, every time i see 10 man on 10 man gang, one of them runs, logs and hides stupid PVP aversion and raping (10 on one, spawn killing) is what makes eve combat so bad In games such as Battlefield and Quake you win by finding an advantage and milking it, but I guess you want to point toward the idea of fights in which contenders have materiel and situational parity. In those cases, whoever has had time to train more, or is younger, or fitter, or has less lag, or a faster computer, is going to win nearly all the time. A wonderful thing with modern progressive MMO games is that players with inferior personal abilities can match up to another by pitting more materiel or a situational advantage against their greater skill. It could be said of games that they are about: 1) Observing a situation 2) Conceiving objectives in regard to that situation 3) Making a plan to achieve those objectives 4) Enacting the plan and being excited by what happens 5) Receive encouragements in the form of rewards or new skills or knowledge 6) Back to 1) Step 3) and 4) can obviously entail sub-loops as you prep and enact sub-plans in preparation for your master plan :) So while I really get what you mean here - I love a fair fight - I feel that we should be careful about deconstructing basic gameflow in order to create putatively 'fair' fights. -vk

z0de Gallente The Bastards	Posted - 2008.04.21 11:57:00 - [51] Alls the tears in this thread sustain me.
Bastaardicious Enrave Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:45:00 - [52] It's part of the game, get used to it :) If you're in 0.0, that's one of the things you have to be willing to live with. If you don't, go back to empire. Besides, if you're playing in lowsec you're most likely to be in a corp, and if you have a somewhat valuable cargo you should have corp mates scouting.
ITTigerClawIK Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:00:00 - [53] as someone who has been involved in PvP in EVE for a very long time now i can tell you that gate camping is alot harder than it seems especuly with the warp to 0km feture now implimented as smaller faster ships are almost impossable to catch unless specily fitted to catch them the only way one can catch someone at a gate is them comeing through the gate now. there are many ways to either break through gate camps or better still avoid them, wars have also become alot less interesting as people just dock or jump throuhg and run away from the gate... this is EVE its built around PvP... everything that one does ends up in PvP Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy (Capt_Lee_Adama2000@yahoo.com)
Commander 598 GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:12:00 - [54] Originally by: Eventy One Originally by: Commander 598 WTF does war have to do with this? I am 99.99999999999999999999999% certain that this complaint is about lowsec gate camping, 0.0 is a non issue. Lowsec has sentry guns that are harmless in a big enough ship and for some reason you can't anchor bubbles in lowsec. Suggestion: De-nerf sentries and allow bubbles. The phrase "Low Security" means that there should be SOME security, as it currently stands it might as well be unconquerable 0.0. Commander 598, the sentry gun nerf may have been before my time .. what was the nerf? Shrug All I know is they're pretty weak and can be tanked with an appropriately fitted BS/BC and I'm fairly sure other gate guns are less then tankable.
stinger7 eve tutors inc	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:17:00 - [55] For low sec gate camps fit the T2 cloak (not the cov ops the other one) and a mwd on your ship and learn how to insta/frag warp, if you learn how to do it properly nothing i mean nothing even a gang of sensor boosted tacklers can catch you even if your flying a BS. This technique is a 100% guaranteed get away if you do not screw it up as long as your flying a ship that can fit a T2 cloak and a mwd. For 0.0 gate camps you should be using a scout as they may have a bubble and you will need to wait them out or go around if that is an option.

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