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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Rakivic
Galactic Express Frontier Trade League
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Posted - 2008.04.18 01:27:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Rakivic on 18/04/2008 01:31:14 So her is one for the record booksą..now I wont go complaining that a GM took my isk or anything like that because we all know buying isk is wrong but this is what happened to me:
I sold a time code to some guy that bought it using isk that be bought with cash from an isk venderą..so ccp takes the isk he paid me (leaving me with -1.1b) I file a petition and the responding GM tells me basically that it is ōpolicyö. So here is my beef why punish me? I hade no clue where the isk came from all I know is I got the isk for my time codeąą..go after the guy who bought the isk with cash in the first place. Why screw someone over that hasnĘt done anything wrong?
Now IĘm stuck ratting to get my balance up enough to go do market transactions because apparently you canĘt with a negative bank balanceąą..have you ever tried ratting to make 1.1b?? Not easy
To be honest all this is making me consider visiting one of them isk venders just to get my in game account back up to 0 isk ( I wonĘt but the thought crossed my mind)
So what do you all think out there is this fair? Or what is your thoughts on it because IĘd like to hear them
----------------------------------------------- [Image Removed] CCP did not like my signature so I had to replace it with this one |
Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD
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Posted - 2008.04.18 01:31:00 -
[2]
If your transaction through the official and secure GTC stuff is where you got your ISK through, you shouldn't have had it removed. I'd ask to have your petition escalated. -----
Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked.
"Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
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Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.18 01:35:00 -
[3]
Ask for replacement GTCs from the vendor you got them from as obviously they were defective/not honored by CCP. If vendor refuses, contact your credit card company that you purchased the GTCs with (if you didn't use a cc, then too bad) and ask for a charge back. It is actually a fairly easy process.
Don't bother petitioning the GMs; they just don't care, so go straight to the vendor.
And regardless of what any forum troll says that it can't be done, blah, blah, just ignore. The reason you use a credit card online is for the consumer protection against actions like this. You purchased something and it didn't work as it was intended, end of story, get your money back.
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Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD
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Posted - 2008.04.18 01:36:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Lord XSiV Ask for replacement GTCs from the vendor you got them from as obviously they were defective/not honored by CCP. If vendor refuses, contact your credit card company that you purchased the GTCs with (if you didn't use a cc, then too bad) and ask for a charge back. It is actually a fairly easy process.
Don't bother petitioning the GMs; they just don't care, so go straight to the vendor.
And regardless of what any forum troll says that it can't be done, blah, blah, just ignore. The reason you use a credit card online is for the consumer protection against actions like this. You purchased something and it didn't work as it was intended, end of story, get your money back.
I thought the secure system ensured said GTC was supposed to be legitimate at the time of the transaction. There should have been a record of a GTC transaction in your wallet journal too. -----
Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked.
"Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
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Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.04.18 01:37:00 -
[5]
He paid you 1.1 billion isk for a GTC?
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Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.18 01:39:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Shaun Klaroh
Originally by: Lord XSiV Ask for replacement GTCs from the vendor you got them from as obviously they were defective/not honored by CCP. If vendor refuses, contact your credit card company that you purchased the GTCs with (if you didn't use a cc, then too bad) and ask for a charge back. It is actually a fairly easy process.
Don't bother petitioning the GMs; they just don't care, so go straight to the vendor.
And regardless of what any forum troll says that it can't be done, blah, blah, just ignore. The reason you use a credit card online is for the consumer protection against actions like this. You purchased something and it didn't work as it was intended, end of story, get your money back.
I thought the secure system ensured said GTC was supposed to be legitimate at the time of the transaction. There should have been a record of a GTC transaction in your wallet journal too.
You forgot to take into consideration the EULA. CCP can do whatever they want in the game, and well quite frankly you agreed to allow them to. Your only recourse in this case is to ask for a refund from the GTC reseller as for all you know, they sold you something defective.
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Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD
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Posted - 2008.04.18 01:44:00 -
[7]
I understand that part. A "We can do whatever we want clause" is standard in any persistent game.
However, with that said I'd like to know if it is a "We can do whatever we want" issue, or whether or not it is a legitimate bust. I'm curious because I want to ensure that if I were to do a GTC transaction, I don't get given the shaft. |
5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2008.04.18 01:54:00 -
[8]
Sounds to me like he probably didn't use the secure system to sell the timecard with, as it's against the rules to not do so.
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Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:00:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Shaun Klaroh I understand that part. A "We can do whatever we want clause" is standard in any persistent game.
However, with that said I'd like to know if it is a "We can do whatever we want" issue, or whether or not it is a legitimate bust. I'm curious because I want to ensure that if I were to do a GTC transaction, I don't get given the shaft.
Would it even matter?
Not like they let us know. Not like there is any such 'rights' to let us know either. It isn't until you exit the gameworld into the real world before you get any type of 'right'.
The only protection you have is through your credit card company. It does make sense that CCP uses resellers for selling GTCs rather then selling direct to players don't you think?
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Rakivic
Galactic Express Frontier Trade League
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:01:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Rakivic on 18/04/2008 02:02:06 I used the "proper method" on this website to sell them that is why I am so p.i.s.s.e.d because CCP wont give me my isk back
and it was not just for one time code he bought 2X90 day time codes for 550m each which is 1.1b total |
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Lisento Slaven
Amarr The Drekla Consortium
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:02:00 -
[11]
I'd be way mad. Escalate that big time. If I spent $15+ on GTC's, sold them through the forums using the secure transfer (the only way allowed), then got ALL the isk taken away because someone used illegitimate money? Yeah, give me back my GTC's then...
That's what I'd say at least... |
Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:03:00 -
[12]
You do have a record in your Wallet's Journal regarding the GTC sales right? |
charming wanderer
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:04:00 -
[13]
TBH this situation is pretty lame CCP...
The guy who paid for the isk with his RL money buys 6 months worth of game time at some greatly reduced price and continues playing, yet the OP gets stuck with the bill... |
xeneon
Amarr Xen Industries New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:06:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Rakivic and it was not just for one time code he bought 2X90 day time codes for 550m each which is 1.1b total
550m for a 90d GTC?
when did you sell these?
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GM Krymus
Game Masters
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:06:00 -
[15]
We do not reverse secure time code transactions. If someone buys a time code from another player through the secure system, the seller of the time code will not have the ISK removed.
As mentioned by 5pinDizzy, using the secure system is required for time code trading.
If this is not the case and your ISK was somehow removed, please ask for your case to be reviewed further.
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Cutie Chaser
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:08:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Cutie Chaser on 18/04/2008 02:11:26 Did the buyer pay 1.1bil for a single time card?
I ask because that would be a sneaky way to sell ISK, buying horribly overpriced GTCs. Buy pays xxx dollars to the seller through a CC, then pays a $15 'transaction fee' to buy the seller a GTC, getting huge piles of ISK in return. For the price of 30 days of playtime you could transfer your ISK right under CCP's noses :P
Of course it would be horribly easy to track if they ever bothered to look through the logs, a 30day card bought for 5 bil would seem a tad fishy :P
EDIT: on a side note GM Krymus if you guys don't keep on eye on those transactions, it might be worth a look. Not related to the OP of course, but more of a general thing.
*** Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers. |
Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:08:00 -
[17]
Originally by: charming wanderer TBH this situation is pretty lame CCP...
The guy who paid for the isk with his RL money buys 6 months worth of game time at some greatly reduced price and continues playing, yet the OP gets stuck with the bill...
We don't know the full details, it's not fair to blast CCP on this either. -----
Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked.
"Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
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Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:14:00 -
[18]
Originally by: charming wanderer TBH this situation is pretty lame CCP...
The guy who paid for the isk with his RL money buys 6 months worth of game time at some greatly reduced price and continues playing, yet the OP gets stuck with the bill...
It maybe lame, but it is within CCP's rights to do it. In fact, they can do it for whatever reason they want, or for no reason at all. Kind of reminds about one of the old ISS commercials where a guy is deleting a companies files one at a time while shaving in the bathroom after finding out he was getting fired that day from an accidental email....
The only thing that can be done is to talk to the GTC resellers. You want a refund or replacement for a defective product which is a legitimate claim. If they fail to do so, contact your credit card company for a refund - this is no different from being a victim of any other internet based fraud. At that point it will affect the reseller's merchant account and the cc processing fees will go up. Eventually they will stop reselling GTCs and that will affect CCP's bottom line and possibly there maybe a policy change but nothing is guaranteed.
An informed and educated consumer does have some powerful influence. Just the first part needs to be emphasized.
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Rakivic
Galactic Express Frontier Trade League
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:14:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Rakivic on 18/04/2008 02:15:24 Ya i got the market transactions I just added a screen shot of it to the petition and asked to have it reviewed by a seniour GM
the guy was a "friend" with a 6 month character it never croseed my mind that he would actualy buy isk
my thought is he did it before and never got cought....tried it this time and got busted
I beter get my dam isk back this is enugh to seriously make me consider quitting (no wise remarks about "can I have your stuf" eather...never actualy said I was quitting it all depends on the out come of the petition) ----------------------------------------------- [Image Removed] CCP did not like my signature so I had to replace it with this one |
Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:23:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Lord XSiV The only thing that can be done is to talk to the GTC resellers. You want a refund or replacement for a defective product which is a legitimate claim. If they fail to do so, contact your credit card company for a refund - this is no different from being a victim of any other internet based fraud.
The problem here is that the GTC apparently was a valid code! You can't initiate anything on this since the secure system allowed it, the card and subsequently it's code were used in a valid transaction. (According to OP) |
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KISOGOKU
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:26:00 -
[21]
**** the stuff you can keep them ,where is raki ?
Originally by: Rakivic
(no wise remarks about "can I have your stuf" eather...never actualy said I was quitting it all depends on the out come of the petition)
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Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:27:00 -
[22]
Originally by: GM Krymus We do not reverse secure time code transactions. If someone buys a time code from another player through the secure system, the seller of the time code will not have the ISK removed.
As mentioned by 5pinDizzy, using the secure system is required for time code trading.
If this is not the case and your ISK was somehow removed, please ask for your case to be reviewed further.
That is actually kind of scary that you can't confidently state that it isn't possible to have a reversal if you used the secure GTC system. Reason being either:
1. Your GMs aren't following some internal policy 2. The secure GTC system isn't actually a 'secure' method
It really does bring into question credibility; how are consumers expected to trust a system if you can't assure the aforementioned aren't being handled? I guess it ends up being even worse if players do come up with examples of such reversals using the secure GTC system. Maybe the op will post screenshots for us.
Also would make you kind of wonder what CCP does with all our personal information they have on file. Some might further be curious as to whether they actually are PCI compliant as they said claim to be; would be interesting to find out what an audit would find.
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Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:31:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Shaun Klaroh
Originally by: Lord XSiV The only thing that can be done is to talk to the GTC resellers. You want a refund or replacement for a defective product which is a legitimate claim. If they fail to do so, contact your credit card company for a refund - this is no different from being a victim of any other internet based fraud.
The problem here is that the GTC apparently was a valid code! You can't initiate anything on this since the secure system allowed it, the card and subsequently it's code were used in a valid transaction. (According to OP)
No, it would still be deemed defective regardless of who said it was valid or not. Ultimately, the purchaser never recieved the product or service. It is quite simple.
Credit card companies side with the consumer; if the reseller can't prove that the purchaser recieved and is getting x amount of game time for which was purchased then the charge will be reversed.
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sugark
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:35:00 -
[24]
Edited by: sugark on 18/04/2008 02:35:42
Originally by: Lord XSiV
That is actually kind of scary that you can't confidently state that it isn't possible to have a reversal if you used the secure GTC system. Reason being either:
1. Your GMs aren't following some internal policy 2. The secure GTC system isn't actually a 'secure' method
It really does bring into question credibility; how are consumers expected to trust a system if you can't assure the aforementioned aren't being handled? I guess it ends up being even worse if players do come up with examples of such reversals using the secure GTC system. Maybe the op will post screenshots for us.
Also would make you kind of wonder what CCP does with all our personal information they have on file. Some might further be curious as to whether they actually are PCI compliant as they said claim to be; would be interesting to find out what an audit would find.
Every system has the potential of being flawed - regardless of how secure it is. Looking into it when there are complaints is the only professional thing to do IMO and serves only to strengthen trust in it by proving if it worked as intended and fixing if it didn¦t.
edit: with "proving" i don¦t mean go public with it, but internal proof. _______________________________________________
Click pic to get a sig! |
Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:37:00 -
[25]
Number One: Official Reply by a GM, Good.
Originally by: GM Krymus We do not reverse secure time code transactions. If someone buys a time code from another player through the secure system, the seller of the time code will not have the ISK removed.
As mentioned by 5pinDizzy, using the secure system is required for time code trading.
If this is not the case and your ISK was somehow removed, please ask for your case to be reviewed further.
Number two: You followed through.
Originally by: Rakivic ... asked to have it reviewed by a seniour GM...
Number Three: Once the situation is resolved, please make sure and post here, so we can all see that CCP works as intended, and will not punish innocent parties.
This way this thread can be used as a precedent, in the future, if an oversight like this happens.
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Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.18 03:00:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jinx Barker Number One: Official Reply by a GM, Good.
Originally by: GM Krymus We do not reverse secure time code transactions. If someone buys a time code from another player through the secure system, the seller of the time code will not have the ISK removed.
As mentioned by 5pinDizzy, using the secure system is required for time code trading.
If this is not the case and your ISK was somehow removed, please ask for your case to be reviewed further.
Number two: You followed through.
Originally by: Rakivic ... asked to have it reviewed by a seniour GM...
Number Three: Once the situation is resolved, please make sure and post here, so we can all see that CCP works as intended, and will not punish innocent parties.
This way this thread can be used as a precedent, in the future, if an oversight like this happens.
You are wrong. If he did use the GTC system and the isk was reversed then as a player he was punished for having to unecessarily go through a supposedly secure process.
You should clarify Number Three to be dependent on whether the secure GTC system was used or not and whether it is truly a safe system for players to use as promoted by CCP.
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.18 03:17:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lord XSiV
Originally by: GM Krymus We do not reverse secure time code transactions. If someone buys a time code from another player through the secure system, the seller of the time code will not have the ISK removed.
That is actually kind of scary that you can't confidently state that it isn't possible to have a reversal if you used the secure GTC system.
Are you stupid?
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Count Bolton
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Posted - 2008.04.18 03:24:00 -
[28]
Just to clarify, it's CCP's EULA that states they can do whatever they want with their game, because it is their property.
However, when you buy a game card from CCP, that game card is no longer their property, it is your property. That is why you can sell them, trade them, and ultimately transfer ownership of the game card itself. CCP either has to honor the value of their game card, or give you a refund, otherwise they are in violation of many trade regulations of various countries. And when it comes to EULA versus actual laws, the EULA falls flat on its face, as proven countless times in court.
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Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.18 03:32:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Originally by: Lord XSiV
Originally by: GM Krymus We do not reverse secure time code transactions. If someone buys a time code from another player through the secure system, the seller of the time code will not have the ISK removed.
That is actually kind of scary that you can't confidently state that it isn't possible to have a reversal if you used the secure GTC system.
Are you stupid?
Short answer, no. Long answer, I am assuming that you have some trouble with comprehension skills. Please ask your caretaker to explain the statement for which you are havings issues understanding.
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.18 03:35:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Lord XSiV
Short answer, no. Long answer, I am assuming that you have some trouble with comprehension skills. Please ask your caretaker to explain the statement for which you are havings issues understanding.
I'm not the one who acused someone of not being able to confidently state something in reply to a post where he did in fact very confidently state exactly that. I think my comprehension skills are not the ones in question here. |
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Amastat
Caldari Omegatech
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Posted - 2008.04.18 03:50:00 -
[31]
You cannot help but read this entire thread, and listen to all the dramatics and tensions - and think to yourself that this is all over gold farmers.
They are parasites that leech off EVE - as well as a disease that plagues the honest players of the EVE community in too many ways that should be allowed. I truly, utterly get more and more disgusted with these groups every day. I hope they are disposed of very painfully and quickly
*twists knife jutting from the back of a freshly killed ISK farmer*
A lot of the problem of this is not just the ISK farmers - it's the people who lurk int he shadows buying it to; they are just as bad.
Let this post and all the others be a lesson that the ISK farmers shouldn't be tolerated - they are nothing but destructive to the game and the community. Buyers should not be tolerated either IMO, and I think everyone should do their part to make sure your own friends who could be tempted to buy the blood-ISK from doing so in the first place - in the least. I personally would find it hard not to report even a friend for buying ISK. ____________________
"All warfare is based on deception... we must seem unable...seem inactive...and crush him " - Sun Tzu, the |
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Frontier Trade League
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Posted - 2008.04.18 05:33:00 -
[32]
Ouch, I hope you get it back.
Was the codes you sold done before the new system, because I know it takes them months usually to actually catch the isk seller and then remove the isk.
I'd like to know if they killed off the GTC as well for the buyer, if not they should have reveresed it to your account.
PS: I hope it was not someone else in our corp that did this to you :(
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. |
Pennwisedom
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Posted - 2008.04.18 06:28:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Lord XSiV You are wrong. If he did use the GTC system and the isk was reversed then as a player he was punished for having to unecessarily go through a supposedly secure process.
You should clarify Number Three to be dependent on whether the secure GTC system was used or not and whether it is truly a safe system for players to use as promoted by CCP.
Wow, this is by far one of the dumbest things to ever be said on these forums. I can't even fathom the thought process that went into this reply. I can only hope that you're just trolling, and don't actually believe this. |
Constance Noring
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Posted - 2008.04.18 07:13:00 -
[34]
Not removing isk from the seller opens the door for laundering purchased isk using 2 accounts. Perhaps CCP should remove the isk from the seller, remove the game time from the buyer, and provide the seller with a new time code.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Naqam
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Posted - 2008.04.18 07:26:00 -
[35]
Originally by: 5pinDizzy Sounds to me like he probably didn't use the secure system to sell the timecard with, as it's against the rules to not do so.
This.
It's extremely unlikely that CCP would have removed your ISK if you used the secure method.
Sorry . I would still enquire to the GMs about it though - unless you were lying and bought ISK from the farmers. Then you deserve everything you get. |
Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.04.18 08:37:00 -
[36]
It's called a SECURE time code trading system.
It is for your security. Not security from unscrupulous dealers, but security from CCP's policies.
So even if you are dealing with a guy you've known for 20 years, who has never stolen a girlfriend from you, and always fixed your car when he dinged it, use the SECURE system.
It is protection for YOU from the actions of CCP.
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GM Guard
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Posted - 2008.04.18 09:24:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Rakivic Edited by: Rakivic on 18/04/2008 02:02:06 I used the "proper method" on this website to sell them that is why I am so p.i.s.s.e.d because CCP wont give me my isk back
and it was not just for one time code he bought 2X90 day time codes for 550m each which is 1.1b total
Hi.
I have searched our petition system and haven't found any petition from you regarding this matter. If you need to talk to us I suggest you file another one and we will be happy to discuss this matter with you.
A note to everyone else reading this, we NEVER reverse GTC sales that are performed with our secure ETC trading system. Straight donations and other kinds of transactions from ISK sellers are however routinely reversed, even if people claim that GTCs were traded for the ISK and not real money. Selling ETCs outside the secure system is a EULA violation and trading ETCs with ISK sellers insecurely is completely indistinguishable from ISK purchasing. |
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.18 10:42:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Count Bolton Just to clarify, it's CCP's EULA that states they can do whatever they want with their game, because it is their property.
However, when you buy a game card from CCP, that game card is no longer their property, it is your property. That is why you can sell them, trade them, and ultimately transfer ownership of the game card itself. CCP either has to honor the value of their game card, or give you a refund, otherwise they are in violation of many trade regulations of various countries. And when it comes to EULA versus actual laws, the EULA falls flat on its face, as proven countless times in court.
But they didn't take his GTC from him; he sold it to another player.
CCP took ISK from him, and this ISK does belong to them
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.18 10:43:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: 5pinDizzy Sounds to me like he probably didn't use the secure system to sell the timecard with, as it's against the rules to not do so.
This.
It's extremely unlikely that CCP would have removed your ISK if you used the secure method.
Sorry . I would still enquire to the GMs about it though - unless you were lying and bought ISK from the farmers. Then you deserve everything you get.
This. Considering GM Gaurd's post above, this smells more like ISK seller anti-GTC propaganda.
I call shennanigans.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.18 12:56:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Pennwisedom
Originally by: Lord XSiV You are wrong. If he did use the GTC system and the isk was reversed then as a player he was punished for having to unecessarily go through a supposedly secure process.
You should clarify Number Three to be dependent on whether the secure GTC system was used or not and whether it is truly a safe system for players to use as promoted by CCP.
Wow, this is by far one of the dumbest things to ever be said on these forums. I can't even fathom the thought process that went into this reply. I can only hope that you're just trolling, and don't actually believe this.
Just because you don't have the comprehension skills to understand something, it doesn't mean there is no merit.
If civilization only listened to people like yourself, we would all still be livng in caves and throwing rocks at each other. Luckily, ignorance of those of lessor intelligence over the ages has prevailed.
For yourself and those like you who are incapable of understanding anything more complex than 'the dog is brown' the whole point was to bring up whether this so so called system is truly 'secure' and provides the protection from anti-capitalist actions that were done in the past. If you claim something, you must be able to back up said claims and anything that brings those claims into question when dealing with a matter of trust must be addressed.
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.04.18 13:48:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: 5pinDizzy Sounds to me like he probably didn't use the secure system to sell the timecard with, as it's against the rules to not do so.
This.
It's extremely unlikely that CCP would have removed your ISK if you used the secure method.
Sorry . I would still enquire to the GMs about it though - unless you were lying and bought ISK from the farmers. Then you deserve everything you get.
This. Considering GM Gaurd's post above, this smells more like ISK seller anti-GTC propaganda.
I call shennanigans.
Well he could easily verify that he is telling the truth just by downloading his market transactions through the API, not modifying the file, and uploading it to eve-files so we can see for ourselves. If he does that we can know for sure that nothing suspicious happened.
So OP, are you willing do to that to clear your name? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8) |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.18 13:54:00 -
[42]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 18/04/2008 13:55:33
Originally by: GM Guard
Originally by: Rakivic Edited by: Rakivic on 18/04/2008 02:02:06 I used the "proper method" on this website to sell them that is why I am so p.i.s.s.e.d because CCP wont give me my isk back
and it was not just for one time code he bought 2X90 day time codes for 550m each which is 1.1b total
Hi.
I have searched our petition system and haven't found any petition from you regarding this matter. If you need to talk to us I suggest you file another one and we will be happy to discuss this matter with you.
A note to everyone else reading this, we NEVER reverse GTC sales that are performed with our secure ETC trading system. Straight donations and other kinds of transactions from ISK sellers are however routinely reversed, even if people claim that GTCs were traded for the ISK and not real money. Selling ETCs outside the secure system is a EULA violation and trading ETCs with ISK sellers insecurely is completely indistinguishable from ISK purchasing.
Boom-headshot
A direct GM response...in public. I love it. More please .
I officially forgive you guys for not reimbursing the 2 ships I have petitioned in the last 18 months due to "server records indicate bupkus".
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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Luh Windan
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2008.04.18 13:55:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Luh Windan on 18/04/2008 13:55:29 So lets get this straight. Someone bought some isk using their credit card or whatever and then used that isk to pay you 1billion Isk for a GTC.
So
a) why did you not use the secure GTC trade mechanism b) why did you sell the GTC for 1 billion instead of whatever the going rate is c) why did the original buyer just not buy a GTC themselves and c) then let themselves be ripped off with a 1 billion isk GTC
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SoftRevolution
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Posted - 2008.04.18 13:57:00 -
[44]
Waiting for OP response... EVE RELATED CONTENT |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.18 14:17:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Lord XSiV Just because you don't have the comprehension skills to understand something, it doesn't mean there is no merit.
If civilization only listened to people like yourself, we would all still be livng in caves and throwing rocks at each other. Luckily, ignorance of those of lessor intelligence over the ages has prevailed.
For yourself and those like you who are incapable of understanding anything more complex than 'the dog is brown' the whole point was to bring up whether this so so called system is truly 'secure' and provides the protection from anti-capitalist actions that were done in the past. If you claim something, you must be able to back up said claims and anything that brings those claims into question when dealing with a matter of trust must be addressed.
:psyduck:
Wow, just wow.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.04.18 14:27:00 -
[46]
Yarp I think a lot of these posts are nothing more than spin doctoring by ISK famers trying to damage CCP's reputation in response to CCP's actions against them.
If this happened to me I'd be upset, but I'd petition and escalate it further if necessary. I wouldn't spam the forum with it though.
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voogru
Gallente Massive Damage United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.04.18 15:19:00 -
[47]
All these new threads about CCP going after evil doers make me happy in the pants.
I'm lovin it. |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.04.18 15:29:00 -
[48]
Obviously CCP shouldn't (and doesn't seem to) take away your isk from a secure GTC transaction if it turns out the other guy bought the ISK.
Nor should they do it if you buy an account the secure way and it turns out the other guy had bought some ISK.
But this brings up an interesting question - how far up the chain do you go to pursue isk? I think that legitimate market transactions, for example, should *not* be rolled back.
If I sell a Pith X type XL shield booster for 3B or something and then CCP comes along and removes 3B from my wallet because the guy who bought it used bought isk, I would be pretty livid :D (Unless they returned my shield booster to me) |
Simetraz
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Posted - 2008.04.18 15:30:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Simetraz on 18/04/2008 15:30:24 What I find interesting about threads like this is the always state they now have a negative ISK amount. THe exact amount they purchased.
So if you had 0 isk in the bank You get 1.1 Billion CCP removes 1.1 Billion You now are back at 0 ISK
Or So if you had 100 mill isk in the bank You get 1.1 Billion You purchased what ?? a carrier maybe. CCP removes 1.1 Billion You now are at - 800 Million for arguments sake.
But you still have the asset you purchased. I am just wondering why CCP didn't just destroy the assets you must have purchased.
I wonder if you can petition them to just destroy what you purchased and say fair enough let me move on.
It is just odd that the numbers never seem to add up.
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.04.18 15:31:00 -
[50]
So OP, how about those market logs? Or I'm guessing that you aren't going to post in this thread again like all those poor, innocent people that CCP victimized. |
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.04.18 15:34:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Simetraz Edited by: Simetraz on 18/04/2008 15:30:24 What I find interesting about threads like this is the always state they now have a negative ISK amount. THe exact amount they purchased.
So if you had 0 isk in the bank You get 1.1 Billion CCP removes 1.1 Billion You now are back at 0 ISK
Or So if you had 100 mill isk in the bank You get 1.1 Billion You purchased what ?? a carrier maybe. CCP removes 1.1 Billion You now are at - 800 Million for arguments sake.
But you still have the asset you purchased. I am just wondering why CCP didn't just destroy the assets you must have purchased.
I wonder if you can petition them to just destroy what you purchased and say fair enough let me move on.
It is just odd that the numbers never seem to add up.
Removing the ISK counteracts the artificial inflation that farmed ISK introduces into the economy. |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.18 15:36:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Luh Windan
c) why did the original buyer just not buy a GTC themselves
Exactly this.
Sounds a bit odd that someone would buy isk for $, and then use the isk to buy a gtc. |
Arous Drephius
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.04.18 15:51:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Luh Windan
c) why did the original buyer just not buy a GTC themselves
Exactly this.
Sounds a bit odd that someone would buy isk for $, and then use the isk to buy a gtc.
Maybe the ISK he bought illegally was cheaper than buying the GTC's directly.
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Luh Windan
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2008.04.18 18:49:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Luh Windan on 18/04/2008 18:50:35 Edited by: Luh Windan on 18/04/2008 18:49:22
Originally by: Arous Drephius
Maybe the ISK he bought illegally was cheaper than buying the GTC's directly.
But the OP apparently was charging him 1 billion for it - which seems odd that someone who has gone out of their way to save money then having a choice, to either a) buy from the secure market at a reasonable price - or b) go down the road of this allegedly 1 billion isk GTC (the OP stated they had sold a GTC) from someone using an unsecure method, would choose the more expensive option.
Smells fishy to me.
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mishkof
Caldari Dirty Denizens
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Posted - 2008.04.18 19:47:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Rakivic Edited by: Rakivic on 18/04/2008 02:02:06 I used the "proper method" on this website to sell them that is why I am so p.i.s.s.e.d because CCP wont give me my isk back
and it was not just for one time code he bought 2X90 day time codes for 550m each which is 1.1b total
For all of you kiddies who dont read good he said that he sold 2 90 day GTC for 550...not 1 for 1.1 bil. He should have said 1.1 bil worth of time cards.
With that said I will believe the GMs before I believe someone not willing to post the transaction logs...post the transaction logs and that changes.
I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response. []hate me []troll me []smack me |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.04.18 20:47:00 -
[56]
Originally by: mishkof
Originally by: Rakivic Edited by: Rakivic on 18/04/2008 02:02:06 I used the "proper method" on this website to sell them that is why I am so p.i.s.s.e.d because CCP wont give me my isk back
and it was not just for one time code he bought 2X90 day time codes for 550m each which is 1.1b total
For all of you kiddies who dont read good he said that he sold 2 90 day GTC for 550...not 1 for 1.1 bil. He should have said 1.1 bil worth of time cards.
With that said I will believe the GMs before I believe someone not willing to post the transaction logs...post the transaction logs and that changes.
Still does not add up frankly.
1) 550 mil/90 day GTC is way overpriced (generally run from 350 - 400 mil)
2) One account buying two 90 day GTC? Maybe not unheard of but unusual.
3) Why would the guy buying the GTC from the OP use real money to buy ISK and then use the ISK to buy GTC? Would have been cheaper to just buy GTC directly likely or near enough and not worry about breaking the EULA. Not to mention simpler and more straight forward.
4) How does the OP go -1.1 billion? As noted above he'd have needed zero ISK to start, get the 1.1 billion and then buy something for 1.1 billion to put him at zero again (then ISK removal makes it -1.1 billion). And if he bought something for 1.1 billion then he can sell it and get most if not all of it back (perhaps even make a profit depending). So he is not "really" out the 1.1 billion.
I agree if someone sells a GTC via the secure system it is bogus for CCP to remove the ISK since the seller has no way of knowing it was from bought ISK. If CCP must remove the ISK then they should issue a new ETC to the player to go sell again (and cancel the previous ETC or ban that player or whatever).
The OP's issues however just smell wrong.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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KISOGOKU
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Posted - 2008.04.18 20:54:00 -
[57]
Edited by: KISOGOKU on 18/04/2008 20:55:34 I think no need shennanigans for now ,Op might used an alt to petition and GM guard look to any petition from rakivic for this matter probably.Wait and learn Edit:Alt bank characters not uncommon
Originally by: Malcanis
This. Considering GM Gaurd's post above, this smells more like ISK seller anti-GTC propaganda.
I call shennanigans.
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CCP Prism X
C C P
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Posted - 2008.04.18 20:57:00 -
[58]
So common that one might think we might know about it? *Hides his Tinfoil Hat II* |
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.04.18 20:59:00 -
[59]
Ongoing lack of posts by the OP or link to valid API-generated market transaction logs does not lend credibility to the OP's argument. |
Scout McAlt
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Posted - 2008.04.18 21:08:00 -
[60]
Anyone who is caught buying isk is going to claim innocence and say they bought GTC's etc to try and scheme the isk back. Fact is, there is a valid method that is 100% safe to buy GTC's and sell GTC's for isk, and that is via the secure method. All other methods do not protect the buyer and seller from fraud (since each side could defraud the other), or ISK reversals if it turns out that the isk was bought from ebay/whatever.
So basically,
Secure GTC selling Method = 100% safety to all parties.
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Solomunio Kzenig
Amarr SPORADIC MOVEMENT HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.04.18 23:27:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Scout McAlt Anyone who is caught buying isk is going to claim innocence and say they bought GTC's etc to try and scheme the isk back. Fact is, there is a valid method that is 100% safe to buy GTC's and sell GTC's for isk, and that is via the secure method. All other methods do not protect the buyer and seller from fraud (since each side could defraud the other), or ISK reversals if it turns out that the isk was bought from ebay/whatever.
So basically,
Secure GTC selling Method = 100% safety to all parties.
Just to clear this up, If I Bought a GTC and sold it (both times using the secure method) and the person I sold the GCT to had purchased the GTC using fraudulent ISK, would my ISK balance be made negative by the ammount I recieved for the GTC? OFC I would be charging standard market rates for the GTC.
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.04.18 23:28:00 -
[62]
Nope, your ISK would not be remove. The one who bought the GTC would have their ISK removed ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8) |
Dominique Vasilkovsky
HOW Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.19 00:03:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Solomunio Kzenig Just to clear this up, If I Bought a GTC and sold it (both times using the secure method) and the person I sold the GCT to had purchased the GTC using fraudulent ISK, would my ISK balance be made negative by the ammount I recieved for the GTC? OFC I would be charging standard market rates for the GTC.
You can't resell GTCs bought using the secure method as they will become game time on the receiving account of the first transfer.
Signature approved by Eldo |
Eterador
Standing Issues
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Posted - 2008.04.19 00:16:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Dominique Vasilkovsky
You can't resell GTCs bought using the secure method as they will become game time on the receiving account of the first transfer.
bingo
Gotta love all these OMG where has all my ISK gone threads
Eter
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Kvirie
Caldari Children of the Wind
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Posted - 2008.04.19 00:16:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Jinx Barker Number One: Official Reply by a GM, Good.
Originally by: GM Krymus We do not reverse secure time code transactions. If someone buys a time code from another player through the secure system, the seller of the time code will not have the ISK removed.
As mentioned by 5pinDizzy, using the secure system is required for time code trading.
If this is not the case and your ISK was somehow removed, please ask for your case to be reviewed further.
Number two: You followed through.
Originally by: Rakivic ... asked to have it reviewed by a seniour GM...
Number Three: Once the situation is resolved, please make sure and post here, so we can all see that CCP works as intended, and will not punish innocent parties.
This way this thread can be used as a precedent, in the future, if an oversight like this happens.
OP should ask for a public inquiry, he will likely fair better than this guy.
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mishkof
Caldari Dirty Denizens
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Posted - 2008.04.19 01:03:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
1) 550 mil/90 day GTC is way overpriced (generally run from 350 - 400 mil)
Yeah, last time I even looked at time cards they were closer to 480-490. I have heard they have plummeted so I dont know.
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h 2) One account buying two 90 day GTC? Maybe not unheard of but unusual.
I know guys who spend double that on a monthly basis to feed their PVP habit...it is only 90-100 RL dollars. Not to far fetched.
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h 3) Why would the guy buying the GTC from the OP use real money to buy ISK and then use the ISK to buy GTC? Would have been cheaper to just buy GTC directly likely or near enough and not worry about breaking the EULA. Not to mention simpler and more straight forward.
Point one why I never said I believed him.
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h 4) How does the OP go -1.1 billion? As noted above he'd have needed zero ISK to start, get the 1.1 billion and then buy something for 1.1 billion to put him at zero again (then ISK removal makes it -1.1 billion). And if he bought something for 1.1 billion then he can sell it and get most if not all of it back (perhaps even make a profit depending). So he is not "really" out the 1.1 billion.
The two times I have purchsed GTC for ISK the ISK was gone within a half an hour...I didnt buy GTC to look at some pretty ISK. I did it because deals had fell through and I had written checks my butt couldnt cash.
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h The OP's issues however just smell wrong.
I agree, that is why I would like to see the transaction logs. I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response. []hate me []troll me []smack me |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.04.19 01:19:00 -
[67]
Originally by: mishkof Yeah, last time I even looked at time cards they were closer to 480-490. I have heard they have plummeted so I dont know.
Maybe there was a blip in there and admittedly I rarely check but every time I have they are 350-400 mil as they are now if you look. Not to mention he said this was his friend which means if it is all true he ripped off his friend.
Quote: I know guys who spend double that on a monthly basis to feed their PVP habit...it is only 90-100 RL dollars. Not to far fetched.
2x90 Day GTC to one account gives that single account 180 days of time. Again may not be unheard of but you are better off hanging on to the ISK and buying 90 days at a go. You can use it in game and things happen in real life that may make you unable to play awhile in which case you are out that money. By itself not an indication of something goofy but another thing that makes it sound weird.
Quote: The two times I have purchsed GTC for ISK the ISK was gone within a half an hour...I didnt buy GTC to look at some pretty ISK. I did it because deals had fell through and I had written checks my butt couldnt cash.
My point is he needed to be at zero for starters and if he bought 1.1 billion of stuff then he has 1.1 billion of stuff he can sell back to bring him to zero again (unless it was an implant or rig he installed).
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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SoftRevolution
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Posted - 2008.04.19 01:33:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Tarminic Ongoing lack of posts by the OP or link to valid API-generated market transaction logs does not lend credibility to the OP's argument.
The suspense is killing me. EVE RELATED CONTENT |
mishkof
Caldari Dirty Denizens
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Posted - 2008.04.19 01:35:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
2x90 Day GTC to one account gives that single account 180 days of time. Again may not be unheard of but you are better off hanging on to the ISK and buying 90 days at a go. You can use it in game and things happen in real life that may make you unable to play awhile in which case you are out that money. By itself not an indication of something goofy but another thing that makes it sound weird.
I misread what you wrote. An account buying more then 6 months time with ISK is indeed not common. Someone selling mulitple 90 days to multiple people is not.
1.1 bil is roughly what you need for the skills/fittings/fuel/BPOS for the rorqual is all I am saying. It is all to easy to spend 1.1 bill when you are buying/outfitting/skilling up for a capital. That is not a factor for me personaly to not believe him.
I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response. []hate me []troll me []smack me |
OffBeaT
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Posted - 2008.04.19 04:58:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Luh Windan Edited by: Luh Windan on 18/04/2008 13:55:29 So lets get this straight. Someone bought some isk using their credit card or whatever and then used that isk to pay you 1billion Isk for a GTC.
So
a) why did you not use the secure GTC trade mechanism b) why did you sell the GTC for 1 billion instead of whatever the going rate is c) why did the original buyer just not buy a GTC themselves and c) then let themselves be ripped off with a 1 billion isk GTC
yep, me natual born criminal and this seems more like the deal.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Frontier Trade League
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Posted - 2008.04.19 05:22:00 -
[71]
Originally by: mishkof
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
2x90 Day GTC to one account gives that single account 180 days of time. Again may not be unheard of but you are better off hanging on to the ISK and buying 90 days at a go. You can use it in game and things happen in real life that may make you unable to play awhile in which case you are out that money. By itself not an indication of something goofy but another thing that makes it sound weird.
I misread what you wrote. An account buying more then 6 months time with ISK is indeed not common. Someone selling mulitple 90 days to multiple people is not.
1.1 bil is roughly what you need for the skills/fittings/fuel/BPOS for the rorqual is all I am saying. It is all to easy to spend 1.1 bill when you are buying/outfitting/skilling up for a capital. That is not a factor for me personaly to not believe him.
Rakivic doesn't own a Rorqual, as far as I know he doesn't even mine, at least I've never seen him mine. He mostly rats and does missions. So for the same amount you could fit a Caldari Navy Raven.
I think the one thing almost noone has asked or brought up is when did this transfer occur. I ask because if it occured before the old method was done away with, then it would have been a legal transaction at the time. Thus CCP shouldn't have removed Rakivic's isk if that was the case, at least how I feel.
It takes sometimes months for them to reverse isks from isk sellers. At least that's what I've heard, so I'm just wondering, I can't remember for sure when they went to the current time code system.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. |
Clamidia SPreader
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Posted - 2008.04.19 06:00:00 -
[72]
1. 550 for 2x90 gtc when they are 360-390 = 1.1 bil 2. 1 bil + 10% free happens to be 1.1 bil
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Asmosis
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Posted - 2008.04.19 07:43:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Lord XSiV
Originally by: Shaun Klaroh
Originally by: Lord XSiV The only thing that can be done is to talk to the GTC resellers. You want a refund or replacement for a defective product which is a legitimate claim. If they fail to do so, contact your credit card company for a refund - this is no different from being a victim of any other internet based fraud.
The problem here is that the GTC apparently was a valid code! You can't initiate anything on this since the secure system allowed it, the card and subsequently it's code were used in a valid transaction. (According to OP)
No, it would still be deemed defective regardless of who said it was valid or not. Ultimately, the purchaser never recieved the product or service. It is quite simple.
Credit card companies side with the consumer; if the reseller can't prove that the purchaser recieved and is getting x amount of game time for which was purchased then the charge will be reversed.
You can have the transaction reversed whether its valid or not, that doesnt matter. Be prepared for CCP to take account on your account if you do reverse charges though, some online games will ban your account/person(IRL) if that happens.
GTC's work a bit differently though.
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Asmosis
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Posted - 2008.04.19 07:46:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h *snip*
My point is he needed to be at zero for starters and if he bought 1.1 billion of stuff then he has 1.1 billion of stuff he can sell back to bring him to zero again (unless it was an implant or rig he installed).
prices have dropped, some permanent players buy 6 months at a time to take advantage of lower prices.
on the last point, you can't sell stuff if you have negative ISK.
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Terminus adacai
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.19 07:46:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Tarminic So OP, how about those market logs? Or I'm guessing that you aren't going to post in this thread again like all those poor, innocent people that CCP victimized.
Tarm, you know as well as I do that it will never happen. Look at all the trading threads he has posted in about exploits, scams, lag bugs, etc. He knows the game so well..... yet this happens to him.
I am not buying it either...
Who is this "friend" he speaks of?
Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance. |
Count Bolton
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Posted - 2008.04.19 10:10:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Count Bolton on 19/04/2008 10:11:16
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Count Bolton Just to clarify, it's CCP's EULA that states they can do whatever they want with their game, because it is their property.
However, when you buy a game card from CCP, that game card is no longer their property, it is your property. That is why you can sell them, trade them, and ultimately transfer ownership of the game card itself. CCP either has to honor the value of their game card, or give you a refund, otherwise they are in violation of many trade regulations of various countries. And when it comes to EULA versus actual laws, the EULA falls flat on its face, as proven countless times in court.
But they didn't take his GTC from him; he sold it to another player.
CCP took ISK from him, and this ISK does belong to them
Not true. Since CCP officially endorses the value of GTC extending to their ingame currency, they can be held liable for promising equal value in return for that GTC, and then giving him absolutely nothing.
Either they have to give him fair compensation for his GTC, either with ingame currency or gametime, or return his card. And once again, when it comes to actual law versus EULA, the EULA will lose no matter what CCP puts in it.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.19 10:25:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Count Bolton Edited by: Count Bolton on 19/04/2008 10:11:16
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Count Bolton Just to clarify, it's CCP's EULA that states they can do whatever they want with their game, because it is their property.
However, when you buy a game card from CCP, that game card is no longer their property, it is your property. That is why you can sell them, trade them, and ultimately transfer ownership of the game card itself. CCP either has to honor the value of their game card, or give you a refund, otherwise they are in violation of many trade regulations of various countries. And when it comes to EULA versus actual laws, the EULA falls flat on its face, as proven countless times in court.
But they didn't take his GTC from him; he sold it to another player.
CCP took ISK from him, and this ISK does belong to them
Not true. Since CCP officially endorses the value of GTC extending to their ingame currency, they can be held liable for promising equal value in return for that GTC, and then giving him absolutely nothing.
Either they have to give him fair compensation for his GTC, either with ingame currency or gametime, or return his card. And once again, when it comes to actual law versus EULA, the EULA will lose no matter what CCP puts in it.
Since this guy did not use the CCP mandated secure method, and is blatantly working with ISK farmers and/or illicit GTC resellers, CCP don't have to give his EULA-breaking ass the time of day, let alone his money back.
Try going into a night club and then competing with their bar by selling your own booze there. Do you think you'll get your entry charge refunded? |
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.04.19 10:42:00 -
[78]
Hmm... it would seem, as with all of these threads, that the OP has run away... --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Olthel
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Posted - 2008.04.19 12:11:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Olthel on 19/04/2008 12:11:28 Well, buying 1.1bil is about 55$, right? I don't know the exact prices, but the last time I saw an add it was something like this. So, buying 180 of gametime with 55$... let's see, a 30d timecard corts 15$, so 6x15$ is 90$!
So buying ISK and then buying GTCs for it actually makes you play for even less money - so by doing this you play for free, actually... so one could technically get a bunch of bought ISK, buy cards, get a few years of playtime, then trade some GTCs using the secure method and pay the same amount of cash a normal player would for the subscription, while still having leftover ISK. (10 bil bought - 500$ = 1800d of playtime, then you buy another bunch of GTCs and sell them for the lost ISK, or just not use the gamecards, write them down, make a new account, which has 5 years of playtime... wicked!... but just WRONG)
P.S.: No, I do not endorse ISK buying or bot/maacro mining and all the crap, I think it ruins the BUYER'S game experience, not everyone elses'.
edit - typos
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Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.19 12:29:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Count Bolton Edited by: Count Bolton on 19/04/2008 10:11:16
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Count Bolton Just to clarify, it's CCP's EULA that states they can do whatever they want with their game, because it is their property.
However, when you buy a game card from CCP, that game card is no longer their property, it is your property. That is why you can sell them, trade them, and ultimately transfer ownership of the game card itself. CCP either has to honor the value of their game card, or give you a refund, otherwise they are in violation of many trade regulations of various countries. And when it comes to EULA versus actual laws, the EULA falls flat on its face, as proven countless times in court.
But they didn't take his GTC from him; he sold it to another player.
CCP took ISK from him, and this ISK does belong to them
Not true. Since CCP officially endorses the value of GTC extending to their ingame currency, they can be held liable for promising equal value in return for that GTC, and then giving him absolutely nothing.
Either they have to give him fair compensation for his GTC, either with ingame currency or gametime, or return his card. And once again, when it comes to actual law versus EULA, the EULA will lose no matter what CCP puts in it.
Since this guy did not use the CCP mandated secure method, and is blatantly working with ISK farmers and/or illicit GTC resellers, CCP don't have to give his EULA-breaking ass the time of day, let alone his money back.
Try going into a night club and then competing with their bar by selling your own booze there. Do you think you'll get your entry charge refunded?
Wow. It is good that people like you can't run businesses. You can't take money from someone for a product or service and then not provide what was promised. It is often referred to as fraud. Regardless of whether it is considered by some to be a 'legitimate business' that does not change the fact.
In this case it isn't CCP that he goes after for a charge back but the retailer. In the event that CCP bans his accounts, he can then pursue a charge back against CCP for what his subscription if paid for by a credit card.
So, regardless of what you think, the EULA does not supercede consumer protection. The EULA is an effective tool for what CCP has control of which is basically that of in-game however has absolutely no authority in the real world. YOu example about selling booze in someone elses bar is completely non-relevant as the case for isk, CCP creates the isk and the demand for it whereas in the bar, the bar does not create the alcohol or demand. Besides you are most likely break some alcohol control laws.
Until CCP wakes up and creates a true RMT system such as those that other MMOs in the free world have done, they are going to have issues. |
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.19 13:07:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Lord XSiV
Wow. It is good that people like you can't run businesses. You can't take money from someone for a product or service and then not provide what was promised.
Why yes, actually I rather think I can. It's called "terms and conditions". I let you into my premises and you obey my rules. Don't like the rules, feel free to GTFO. Virtually every place that provides an experience rather than a tangible product operates like this. If you go to Disneyworld and start exposing yourself to the kids, you get thrown out with no refund. You have no right to a refund because you broke the contract you made with the management to adhere to a certain standard of behaviour.
It's not like CCP changed their rules after the guy did the trade; it was against their T&C before he did it, and it's against them now.
Let's cut to the chase: the OP tried to make extra profit from his GTC sale by selling to RMTers - and that's just what he was prepared to admit to in public. He was greedy, he broke the rules, he got caught. Too bad, so sad, have a kleenex.
When you're done crying to your mom lawyer on behalf of a cheater, wipe up, man up and accept that breaking the rules has consequnces. |
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.19 14:45:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Lord XSiV
Until CCP wakes up and creates a true RMT system such as those that other MMOs in the free world have done, they are going to have issues.
Some of us like to play a game without cheating at it with our (dad's) money.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.19 15:52:00 -
[83]
How much ISK do you guys wanna bet that Lord XSiV is actually an ISK buyer?
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.19 18:00:00 -
[84]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt How much ISK do you guys wanna bet that Lord XSiV is actually an ISK buyer?
A lot.
Lord XSiV (from that thread):
Quote: To all you whiners who are just jealous because you aren't financially well off
Quote: pray to the almightly one that CCP never goes public. If it ever did, I imagine some of us would serious consider owning a serious chunk of the company in order to influence game policy to erradicate your kind
Quote: Be offended all you want but your statements are offensive to those of us who actually worked to become successful by saying our time isn't worth anything. Your socialist ideals are pathetic.
Quote: stop whining cause you are too lazy to go out and work for your entertainment dollars.
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Trathen
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Posted - 2008.04.19 18:32:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
A lot.
Ooh those are good, I've seen a few personalities, but not the outspoken RMT-buying "because I'm a freaking business shark IRL, man" types.
More Lord XSiVisms please! |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.19 19:48:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Originally by: An Anarchyyt How much ISK do you guys wanna bet that Lord XSiV is actually an ISK buyer?
A lot.
Lord XSiV (from that thread):
Quote: To all you whiners who are just jealous because you aren't financially well off
Quote: pray to the almightly one that CCP never goes public. If it ever did, I imagine some of us would serious consider owning a serious chunk of the company in order to influence game policy to erradicate your kind
Quote: Be offended all you want but your statements are offensive to those of us who actually worked to become successful by saying our time isn't worth anything. Your socialist ideals are pathetic.
Quote: stop whining cause you are too lazy to go out and work for your entertainment dollars.
Nice catch. I wonder if, when he buys CCP, he will offer refunds to those he "eradicates" from the game?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.19 19:49:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Trathen
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
A lot.
Ooh those are good, I've seen a few personalities, but not the outspoken RMT-buying "because I'm a freaking business shark IRL, man" types.
More Lord XSiVisms please!
I bet he has Bonitis.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.19 23:38:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Lord XSiV
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Count Bolton Edited by: Count Bolton on 19/04/2008 10:11:16
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Count Bolton Just to clarify, it's CCP's EULA that states they can do whatever they want with their game, because it is their property.
However, when you buy a game card from CCP, that game card is no longer their property, it is your property. That is why you can sell them, trade them, and ultimately transfer ownership of the game card itself. CCP either has to honor the value of their game card, or give you a refund, otherwise they are in violation of many trade regulations of various countries. And when it comes to EULA versus actual laws, the EULA falls flat on its face, as proven countless times in court.
But they didn't take his GTC from him; he sold it to another player.
CCP took ISK from him, and this ISK does belong to them
Not true. Since CCP officially endorses the value of GTC extending to their ingame currency, they can be held liable for promising equal value in return for that GTC, and then giving him absolutely nothing.
Either they have to give him fair compensation for his GTC, either with ingame currency or gametime, or return his card. And once again, when it comes to actual law versus EULA, the EULA will lose no matter what CCP puts in it.
Since this guy did not use the CCP mandated secure method, and is blatantly working with ISK farmers and/or illicit GTC resellers, CCP don't have to give his EULA-breaking ass the time of day, let alone his money back.
Try going into a night club and then competing with their bar by selling your own booze there. Do you think you'll get your entry charge refunded?
Wow. It is good that people like you can't run businesses. You can't take money from someone for a product or service and then not provide what was promised. It is often referred to as fraud. Regardless of whether it is considered by some to be a 'legitimate business' that does not change the fact.
In this case it isn't CCP that he goes after for a charge back but the retailer. In the event that CCP bans his accounts, he can then pursue a charge back against CCP for what his subscription if paid for by a credit card.
So, regardless of what you think, the EULA does not supercede consumer protection. The EULA is an effective tool for what CCP has control of which is basically that of in-game however has absolutely no authority in the real world. YOu example about selling booze in someone elses bar is completely non-relevant as the case for isk, CCP creates the isk and the demand for it whereas in the bar, the bar does not create the alcohol or demand. Besides you are most likely break some alcohol control laws.
Until CCP wakes up and creates a true RMT system such as those that other MMOs in the free world have done, they are going to have issues.
CCP never gave him ISK, or a GTC. Someone bought a GTC from another site, and then uses the EULA-violating non-secure method, and CCP takes action that everyone knows they will take. Had the guy done a secure trade, then you'd have some grounds to stand on. You claiming you bought something and traded it, holds about as much water in court as a fishing net.
CCP has made it very clear that you can only trade GTCs via their secure method, not doing so violates the agreement you have to play the game, and if you sold to an isk buyer in that way, it means you also lost the ISK. Despite the growing incompetence of the human race, when someone is lazy or careless, it is not the fault of those who punish him for it.
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KapnKaboom
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.04.20 00:49:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Lord XSiV Wow. It is good that people like you can't run businesses. You can't take money from someone for a product or service and then not provide what was promised. It is often referred to as fraud. Regardless of whether it is considered by some to be a 'legitimate business' that does not change the fact.
In this case it isn't CCP that he goes after for a charge back but the retailer. In the event that CCP bans his accounts, he can then pursue a charge back against CCP for what his subscription if paid for by a credit card.
So, regardless of what you think, the EULA does not supercede consumer protection. The EULA is an effective tool for what CCP has control of which is basically that of in-game however has absolutely no authority in the real world. YOu example about selling booze in someone elses bar is completely non-relevant as the case for isk, CCP creates the isk and the demand for it whereas in the bar, the bar does not create the alcohol or demand. Besides you are most likely break some alcohol control laws.
Until CCP wakes up and creates a true RMT system such as those that other MMOs in the free world have done, they are going to have issues.
I love it when fools like this post. Their cluelessness provides more entertainment than money could ever buy.
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Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 01:53:00 -
[90]
Hey trolls, I figured one response rather than responding independently to 6 ignorant trolls would be the best way to save bandwidth.
First off, it is quite clear that those who jumped to the accusation of me being an isk seller/buyer are the truly ignorant. Just because I appear in your limited intellectual capacity to support a practice does not mean that I am an active participant in such practice. Making such an accusation is the kind of behaviour expected from those types of people which so happen to be a class below those types who particpate on the Jerry Springer Show. Luckily, your opinion is irrelevant.
Next up, those who jumped all over me for my statement regarding a functioning RMT. Hate to tell you this, but CCP already has a RMT with the claimed 'secure GTC system'. I just stated that it should be fixed. You don't like it, then tough, your opinion is irrelevant as well.
Well some might ask, well what is wrong with the system? Well here is your answer. CCP offsets liability to another entity for the reselling of time cards rather than selling them directly to players. Now transfering risk is normally a good thing, but I don't think it is appropriate when the reason is to pass off the problems associated with the cards (i.e. them not being honored by CCP for transactions or even game time) rather than accept any responsibility and address the problem themselves. The resellers also provide another buffer zone for which the player will be hindered when trying to get due compensation for when the GTC isn't honored. It is a known ploy where only a small percentage of consumers know their rights and will take the effort to pursue the process for a refund when sold a defective product. It is a straight numbers game to play that percentage to a company's benefit and is generally seen as a poor and unethical business practice.
This is one of the reasons why credit card companies have streamlined the process to make it easier on consumers to take affirmative action against scrupulous retailers. Fraud can be done in many ways, not just by someone impersonating someone else for personal gain; companies may do it as well and the end result is damage to the credit card infrastructure due to loss of consumer trust. The consumer is what the credit card companies make the majority of their money from (high interest rates versus a small transaction processing fee to the merchant) so it is in their best interest to keep the consumer happy. Why do you think the credit card companies are forcing everyone who accepts credit cards to become PCI compliant? It certainly isn't to protect the retailers.
My whole point was to educate and dispute the ignorant fanbois who believe the EULA is some sort of 'bible' that has crossed the digital domain. As a consumer you have rights; those rights are not superceded by some unenforceable agreement outside its context of authority (in this case, the game itself) and those rights should be exercised if there is wrong done to the consumer. Just saying that someone should lose their money and their rights to recourse action cause they broke some rule in a game is completely out to lunch.
And lastly, to all those who oppose the GTC for isk system, allowing multiple accounts or any other advantage available to those of us in the real world who have actually worked for a living and have more 'real world' assets than you, I have this to say:
Too bad, get off your computer and get a job.
Just because some people have become successful in the real world doesn't mean successful people should be penalized because you are too lazy to get a job (or any other reason for that matter) and that you are jealous of that fact. The real world rewards those who are successful, those are the rules, and even games that exist in this real world are forced one way or the other to follow those same rules. CCP should be cattering towards those who spend money, not those who whine about not having it.
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GM Tacgnol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 01:57:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Solomunio Kzenig
Originally by: Scout McAlt Anyone who is caught buying isk is going to claim innocence and say they bought GTC's etc to try and scheme the isk back. Fact is, there is a valid method that is 100% safe to buy GTC's and sell GTC's for isk, and that is via the secure method. All other methods do not protect the buyer and seller from fraud (since each side could defraud the other), or ISK reversals if it turns out that the isk was bought from ebay/whatever.
So basically,
Secure GTC selling Method = 100% safety to all parties.
Just to clear this up, If I Bought a GTC and sold it (both times using the secure method) and the person I sold the GCT to had purchased the GTC using fraudulent ISK, would my ISK balance be made negative by the ammount I recieved for the GTC? OFC I would be charging standard market rates for the GTC.
In the situation you describe, your ISK would not be removed. This is what the secure method for GTC trading is for - Verification that an actual, and valid, timecode was traded.
So, once again, please do all your GTC trading through the secure system.
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doctorstupid2
Blood Corsair's Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.04.20 02:05:00 -
[92]
Edited by: doctorstupid2 on 20/04/2008 02:07:58 Edited by: doctorstupid2 on 20/04/2008 02:07:40
Originally by: Lord XSiV Hey trolls, *nerdrage*
Why don't you get all worked up about it and buy some more isk?
Oh, and by the way, I work over 40 hours/week, make good money, and earn all of my isk in game, and am quite good at it. By killing people, to boot. Being good at eve != being bad at real life.
Just because you're too lazy and uncreative to earn a living in this game in your spare time doesn't mean I nor anyone else is going to give you sympathy when your ISK buying ass gets caught. Honestly CCP is far too lenient with the banhammer when it comes to ISK buyers (and yes, I'm including GTC sellers in that)
Nostalgia | Deadspace2 | Deadspace |
nahtoh
Caldari Bull Industries United For 0rder
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Posted - 2008.04.20 02:16:00 -
[93]
Lord XSiV, you really are in danger of disappearing in a cloud of self importance. Have resources does not protect you from your own actions when those actions are against the rules where you carry out those actions!!!.
Claiming back through the CC company should not be a option if the OP is making up a yarn for the simple fact he did violate the terms and conditions and the Timecodes where "fit for purpose" when used in the approved way . If this is a mistake then CCP will investigate and they will return the ISK as posted by a GM.
It should not matter what resources the offending party has they should be trated the same damm way no matter what.
CCP both offer timecodes via their own site and third party retailers, they allow players to trade them for ingame resources (pick your own side if they should or not) and offer one way for this to be a ingame legal way of happening, it cuts down on fraud and protects both the seller and the buyer of the player traded timecards, while using it as their best pratice way of combating RMT (again pick your side, I truly don't care what side it is).
In ending Break The Rules get spanked, follow the rules and get protected. Its the choice of the person who choses to carry out the act.
It was not defective product, it was a possible violation of the GTC trading rules no matter what spin you try and put on it. No matter what your personal resources you should not expect them to get you any special consideration when you screw up... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 03:02:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Lord XSiV Just because some people have become successful in the real world doesn't mean successful people should be penalized because you are too lazy
Yet here you are wanting to have the right to do well at a game without having to be successful at playing it because you are too lazy.
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Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.20 03:27:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Lord XSiV Some much text so little value
What's there to fix with the RMT? CCP doesn't want to do a direct ISK-GTC transaction, but allow players to do so if they, want and have given them a means of ensuring they are not screwed over by the other party for one reason or another, and CCP has a paper trail showing that they didn't pay some sweatshop owner. One player gets to continue playing, CCP gets its sub fee for that person, and someone that pays to play a game pays alittle more to 'play' the game.
Quote: Just saying that someone should lose their money and their rights to recourse action cause they broke some rule in a game is completely out to lunch.
So if you make an agreement with someone, and they don't follow their part of the deal, you still follow yours or give them back whatever they put in?
Quote: Just because some people have become successful in the real world doesn't mean successful people should be penalized because you are too lazy to get a job (or any other reason for that matter) and that you are jealous of that fact. The real world rewards those who are successful, those are the rules, and even games that exist in this real world are forced one way or the other to follow those same rules.
Ok hard work in the real work (usually) brings success in the real world, thanks for pointing out the obvious. Mind if I point out that the same should hold true in a game? Sorry, it's nice that you claim to be 'well off', and that some people want to burn extra money on a game. I could do it too, but I actually enjoy playing the game I pay to play. Why should people successful in a game be penalized in game because they choose not to do the equivalent of entering cheat codes? Mindsets like yours belong in the Korean MMO market, where plastic beats playtime.
Personally I think CCP should kill the GTC for ISK setup, but I know it's unlikely they will because it has the combined effect of hurting farmers, while helping keep the player base larger by retaining players that might not otherwise play for one reason or another (have heard some nightmares about stuff like paybycash).
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 03:32:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Trathen
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
A lot.
Ooh those are good, I've seen a few personalities, but not the outspoken RMT-buying "because I'm a freaking business shark IRL, man" types.
More Lord XSiVisms please!
I bet he has Bonitis.
Damnit! That was gonna be my reply!
Also, I love my job. I get to make my own hours, and do what I love. And, the models don't hurt either.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 03:34:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Lord XSiV on 20/04/2008 03:39:04
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Originally by: An Anarchyyt How much ISK do you guys wanna bet that Lord XSiV is actually an ISK buyer?
A lot.
Oh I just had to respond to this one seperately since Reem just had to try and impress everyone with his ninja-f00 like search skills. Too bad he didn't actually put some thought into what the point was.
Yes, I still stand behind everything I had stated in that post. If the company was to go public or be purchased by an acquirer, you can be certain that the current or new management would be directed to maximize profits. Sorry but that is the way a business is run. Not only that but Eve would florish and the game would be much better. Let me break it down from an analyst standpoint:
1. The cry babies will continue on playing as they always do. It has been proven time and time again that whenever CCP introduces changes to gameplay that the vocal players complain about and threaten to quit, yet subsciptions actually rise. The likelihood of those complaining actually quiting is quite small and even those that actually do quit are replaced with new subscriptions of some high factor.
2. It would be good to actually get the whiners to quit. They do nothing to promote the game and are a drain on resources. If you look at the 'whiners base' it is most likely comprised mainly of single subscription players, many of those using the GTC system and not contributing any solid stable revenue numbers anyhow.
3. You get much higher revenue from those who are willing to spend more money for more options. It's called the 'add-on' or ancilliary revenue. Companies who have an established market presence that have 'maxed out' or 'peaked' for their market penetration will need to ocme up with new ideas to produce revenue growth. While I don't think CCP is there with Eve, the signs that they are looking for other revenue growth (Eve voice, new MMO, expanding Eve store offerings, etc) are there.
4. Other MMO games have a functioning RMT market. Best example to use is Second Life and I am pretty certain that their revenue stream is much higher than CCP's by several magnitudes. SoE's RMT was done out of necessity from a legal perspective as will most others when countries start to pass legislation for virtual property. Plus it would just make more money so it is counter-intuitive for a company to fight it.
5. As has been stated so many times, the most important attribute in Eve is a players playing ability; not the number of sp, ships, isk in wallet, etc. If this is truly the case, then RMT isn't a problem so why not make money off of it? If ignorant players are so confident that they have the skills to beat these so called 'sugar daddy' then what is the big issue? Shouldn't CCP be allowed to generate more revenue or is that such a bad thing?
So instead of thinking about your own selfishness for once, try (and I know this is a difficult thing due to most people's ignorance) and look at it from a business perspective. If you can't see how it would be a benefit to grow the revenue then you should start realizing that this game will die out in due time. Throw whatever accusation you want at me (I don't care what stupid people think anyhow) but at least grasp in your limited wisdom that the aforementioned is from a position of improving the game unlike you whiners who want nothing more than to destroy it.
Now, as a side note, take a look at this so called isk selling problem. If CCP was serious about solving this 'problem', then they would have done so through a technical enforcement control and not a user behavioural one. As for the reason why, I couldn't answer that, only CCP can, but it does make one wonder why they actually haven't at this point if it is such a large problem. Hueristics can easily be applied to ferret out violators and would be much cheaper than human based intervention.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 03:38:00 -
[98]
Hey, you wanna invest in my company? With two Reaganoughts like ourselves, we couldn't lose, we'd make billions!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Cpt Branko
Surge. Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.20 03:50:00 -
[99]
Yeah, Lord XSiV, EvE must sell levels for $ to grow. WoW does it, and they're the most successful MMO around. Oh, wait.
Your 'sorry but that's the way business is run' is just a fail "argument", and shows a complete lack of understanding of the MMO business in general.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 03:56:00 -
[100]
Originally by: doctorstupid2 Edited by: doctorstupid2 on 20/04/2008 02:07:58 Edited by: doctorstupid2 on 20/04/2008 02:07:40
Originally by: Lord XSiV Hey trolls, *nerdrage*
Why don't you get all worked up about it and buy some more isk?
Oh, and by the way, I work over 40 hours/week, make good money, and earn all of my isk in game, and am quite good at it. By killing people, to boot. Being good at eve != being bad at real life.
Just because you're too lazy and uncreative to earn a living in this game in your spare time doesn't mean I nor anyone else is going to give you sympathy when your ISK buying ass gets caught. Honestly CCP is far too lenient with the banhammer when it comes to ISK buyers (and yes, I'm including GTC sellers in that)
I think your character name says it all. In fact it is pretty sad that you are probably the second one to pick the name....
Any more accusations you want to throw my way to help soothe your bitterness that is a result of your ineptitude? Hey, I understand, we see it in the real world quite often where failures are quick to 'blame' (or attribute) others success to being gained through nefarious means. The more appropriate term is jealousy. Go look it up, you might learn something.
And just one more thing for you - anyone who tries to make a comparison of two completely seperate and independent things using a programming expression to make it appear as if they are in the know, most likely are not in the know. And for kicks, to dispute the stattement anyhow, success in the real world does increase the likelihood of success in a game. The reason being is that truly successful people will normally be successful in whatever they choose to do as they have the attributes to be successful and are intelligent enough to identify where they can be successful. Unsuccessful people don't have the same attributes and aren't intelligent enough to know that the will or have failed.
Next. You trolls are a nice case study on how much forum intelligence has degraded over the years.
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Cpt Branko
Surge. Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.20 04:05:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Lord XSiV
Quote:
Being good at eve != being bad at real life.
And for kicks, to dispute the stattement anyhow, success in the real world does increase the likelihood of success in a game.
You do understand what != means, right?
Lord Stupid, saying you'll disprove someone and explaining why it's correct is kindof silly.
Not go troll something else with 'You're stupid and I know everything even when I obviously have no clue what I'm talking about' attitude.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 04:12:00 -
[102]
Lord, I challenge you to a duel!
our weapons will be specious reasoning and ad hominem attacks.
Yes I know, you are better armed for this sort of combat than I am, but I like a challenge!
admit it, you guys missed me
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
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Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 04:30:00 -
[103]
Originally by: nahtoh Lord XSiV, you really are in danger of disappearing in a cloud of self importance. Have resources does not protect you from your own actions when those actions are against the rules where you carry out those actions!!!.
Claiming back through the CC company should not be a option if the OP is making up a yarn for the simple fact he did violate the terms and conditions and the Timecodes where "fit for purpose" when used in the approved way . If this is a mistake then CCP will investigate and they will return the ISK as posted by a GM.
It should not matter what resources the offending party has they should be trated the same damm way no matter what.
CCP both offer timecodes via their own site and third party retailers, they allow players to trade them for ingame resources (pick your own side if they should or not) and offer one way for this to be a ingame legal way of happening, it cuts down on fraud and protects both the seller and the buyer of the player traded timecards, while using it as their best pratice way of combating RMT (again pick your side, I truly don't care what side it is).
In ending Break The Rules get spanked, follow the rules and get protected. Its the choice of the person who choses to carry out the act.
It was not defective product, it was a possible violation of the GTC trading rules no matter what spin you try and put on it. No matter what your personal resources you should not expect them to get you any special consideration when you screw up...
You still don't get it. The person purchased something with real money with the expectation that something was going to be usable in some fashion as advertised. The end result wasn't the usable form of what was intended therefore the individual has a right to be given a replacement or refund.
The sticky point you neophites are all gravitating to is the EULA violation, which was applied in game as intended and to the extent of it's authority. The result however has an impact where the EULA does not have authority and consumer protection does.
So let me summarize and spell it out for you:
1. Person buys product/service using credit card from retailer. Retailer is expected to deliver product/service as intended.
2. Person then takes product/service and uses it for intended purpose.
3. Product/service does not work as intended.
4. Person asks for replacement or refund of defective product/service.
5. a) Retailer provides replacement or refund after being notified by person. Return to #1 or end. b) Retailer refuses to provide replacement or refund and person notifies credit card agency for refund.
6. Credit card agency investigates by asking retailer for proof of delivery/usage of product. * In some countries a written signature on the transaction is required. For these countries this may be a stop in the process as online transactions don't have a person's signature. Regardless, the person is making a claim that the product/service is defective.
7. Person then refutes retailer claim of delivery/usage with statement of defective/unusable product/service.
8. Credit Card company reverses the charge and notifies retailer. Merchant account is then noted. After a number of these, the merchant account can be reviewed by the credit card company as it may indicate that the merchant is not acting in good faith, fraudulently or just has a poor product/service. It may be deemed appropriate to alter the merchant account's T&C by increasing the transaction processing fee, requiring a larger bond deposit or even terminating the merchant account.
Pretty straight forward. The EULA is applied in step #3, but the Credit Card company couldn't care less about a Merchant's policy. The end result is that the consumer didn't recieve a working product/service.
So for this case, the OP has the right to charge back to the retailer who sold the GTC.
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doctorstupid2
Blood Corsair's Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.04.20 04:36:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Lord XSiV
Originally by: doctorstupid2 Edited by: doctorstupid2 on 20/04/2008 02:07:58 Edited by: doctorstupid2 on 20/04/2008 02:07:40
Originally by: Lord XSiV Hey trolls, *nerdrage*
Why don't you get all worked up about it and buy some more isk?
Oh, and by the way, I work over 40 hours/week, make good money, and earn all of my isk in game, and am quite good at it. By killing people, to boot. Being good at eve != being bad at real life.
Just because you're too lazy and uncreative to earn a living in this game in your spare time doesn't mean I nor anyone else is going to give you sympathy when your ISK buying ass gets caught. Honestly CCP is far too lenient with the banhammer when it comes to ISK buyers (and yes, I'm including GTC sellers in that)
I think your character name says it all. In fact it is pretty sad that you are probably the second one to pick the name....
Any more accusations you want to throw my way to help soothe your bitterness that is a result of your ineptitude? Hey, I understand, we see it in the real world quite often where failures are quick to 'blame' (or attribute) others success to being gained through nefarious means. The more appropriate term is jealousy. Go look it up, you might learn something.
And just one more thing for you - anyone who tries to make a comparison of two completely seperate and independent things using a programming expression to make it appear as if they are in the know, most likely are not in the know. And for kicks, to dispute the stattement anyhow, success in the real world does increase the likelihood of success in a game. The reason being is that truly successful people will normally be successful in whatever they choose to do as they have the attributes to be successful and are intelligent enough to identify where they can be successful. Unsuccessful people don't have the same attributes and aren't intelligent enough to know that the will or have failed.
Next. You trolls are a nice case study on how much forum intelligence has degraded over the years.
I was actually the first, and second, to chose this name in eve. But of course your wit is impressive nonetheless.
As for this nonsense: "The reason being is that truly successful people will normally be successful in whatever they choose to do as they have the attributes to be successful and are intelligent enough to identify where they can be successful;" I'm very successful, at the age of 20 before finishing college I started my own business and managed about 80k/year, give or take depending on business flow. That doesn't mean I'm any good at first person shooters despite exceedingly good eye hand coordination from shooting and auto racing. And at the same time, my accomplishments, education, and skill in real life don't entitle me to unlimited rockets in Halo.
GTC forum is that way -> I'm sure your lowlife bretheren will happily listen to your ego trip there.
Nostalgia | Deadspace2 | Deadspace |
Pennwisedom
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Posted - 2008.04.20 05:04:00 -
[105]
He didn't even respond to my offer
I guess this guy isn't the high-powered venture capitalist we all thought he was.
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Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 05:25:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Lord XSiV
Quote:
Being good at eve != being bad at real life.
And for kicks, to dispute the stattement anyhow, success in the real world does increase the likelihood of success in a game.
You do understand what != means, right?
Lord Stupid, saying you'll disprove someone and explaining why it's correct is kindof silly.
Not go troll something else with 'You're stupid and I know everything even when I obviously have no clue what I'm talking about' attitude.
You didn't catch the flip on it did you. Or read the entire context. Was it because you were so entrenched to argue anything that your anticipation got the best of you?
I actually like parts of this accusation however - the 'I know everything piece' can be taken as quite a compliment. Unfortunately, I cannot claim to know everything but I will claim to have a quite extensive knowledgebase in the areas that I have specializations. Since you aren't a person of any importance that could ever use such information (or would most likely dimiss it as useless until it became relevant in your little space of interest, funny how things like that work out with little people) I will just ignore the remainder of the statement.
I will get to the root of the discussion. All you trolls are banding together in a united front to do a public crucifiction of a person who has in your irrelevant opinions 'violated' some policy and should 'pay the price in real money' for their actions. With me pointing out that there is viable recourse for the person to take, rather than accept the fact and move on, you have turned your attentions towards myself as being the 'evil' naysayer who does bad things. Maybe you should be labelled as 'fundamentalist Eve EULA thumping fanbois' or something. As part of the mandatory 'forum thumping dog pile' discreditation process that includes:
Direct name calling Unfounded and unsubstantiated accusations More direct name calling Claims of sssociation to entities that violate game rules The standard 'You don't have a clue/know what you are talking about' More name calling
So, I ask any of the persons participating in the 'forum thumping dog pile' if they do happen to have any significant position at any of the credit card companies (or any major financial institution for that matter) and can talk to the specific discussion around the policies involved?
(And no, a significant position does not include customer service rep, IT monkey, teller, night watchman, janitor or mail courier.)
So if you still haven't quite got it yet, my whole position is that about consumer protection (I have only mentioned it several times in all my posts) and nothing more. It isn't an attack against CCP, which most of you assume, but the dissemination of educational information. People still have rights regardless of what they have done and to deny them those very rights for which they are entitled to is a far worse travesty. All of you should be ashamed of yourselves.
And to those who will continue to respond with direct insults of no relevance at all - I can understand your frustration that is a result from an inferiority complex fueled by inadequacy and constant failure which prevents you from participating in a civil social discussion and further amplified by the need for attention. It's ok, some people weren't given great social or intellectual abilities and such we label them as 'special' people that require a little more leeway in the comprehension department.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 05:29:00 -
[107]
I am a very important person. I've acquired a genetically altered handshake capable of speeds up to 30 mph. Hair arranged by the most advanced landscape surveillance operators our company can afford.
I have a very expensive pen. I use big words quite often in substitution for semantically equivalent words. I attribute this success to my professional demeanor and my strong stock portfolio.
Though it may not appear so, I am quite comfortable in my surroundings. I have everything, let me show you around. smile you f.ucker, it's not often you get this chance. Love is just an exchangeof corporate documents. I've reviewed your rapport and i feel you're a prospect for mechanical salvation.
This is a joint venture that will be mutually advantageous to both parties involved. Technically this is just a business merger. A consolidation of liquid assets. We are respectively geared towards customer service. There is a great possibility for corporate sponsorship if you're willing, I am sure we could synchronize agendas. Swift, and efficient satisfaction. through innovative planning, we could form a strong strategic partnership capable of overcoming sensitive and adverse predicaments which will be discussed at the next goals assessment meeting. Promotion possibility and additional benefits are diagrammed in my preliminary objective outline. Raises are granted based on performance.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 06:04:00 -
[108]
Originally by: doctorstupid2 I was actually the first, and second, to chose this name in eve. But of course your wit is impressive nonetheless.
As for this nonsense: "The reason being is that truly successful people will normally be successful in whatever they choose to do as they have the attributes to be successful and are intelligent enough to identify where they can be successful;" I'm very successful, at the age of 20 before finishing college I started my own business and managed about 80k/year, give or take depending on business flow. That doesn't mean I'm any good at first person shooters despite exceedingly good eye hand coordination from shooting and auto racing. And at the same time, my accomplishments, education, and skill in real life don't entitle me to unlimited rockets in Halo.
GTC forum is that way -> I'm sure your lowlife bretheren will happily listen to your ego trip there.
Hmm, sounds like you are trying to be impress someone or something to that effect. Well you aren't. In fact the opposite. Successful people don't go on gloating about 'how much they make' or 'I made xyz when I was 4 years old in pre-school, yada, yada'. It is personal information; to disclose would be bad form and lacks any class. The affluent know, they know the people around them know they are affluent and they don't need to advertise or brag.
Conversely, lower class individuals trying to garner attention will throw out some random number that they think is impressive. In reality, it is some pipe dream that they wished had occurred or they have an aquaintance who attained it, so I would call your bluff on that one.
Besides, you are bragging over 80k. Plus you are bragging about going to college like it is something important. Didn't you get the memo? The world's most successful people didn't finish post secondary education. Reason being is that it is a waste of time and money as it only teaches you how to be a drone that helps move the economic wheel working for someone else who is smarter than you. Sure if you want to limit yourself by capping your earning potential and limiting yourself to some traditional institutionalised way of thinking, by all means take that path.
Then again, I guess you didn't have much of a choice to get some intelligence upgrades seeing as you didn't just create one character with the name 'doctorstupid' but 2 of them. Might want to rethink whether you got a good ROI on that college education.
The point about successful people will be successful apparently went completely above your level of comprehension. A successful person is intelligent enough to select something they know they will be successful in; they don't do 'stuff' that they are going fail. It is counter-intuitive as the most important key to success is one's time management and you don't waste time on failure. I hope that your 'college education' has at least given you the capability to figure that one out, and if not, please let us know the name of the institution so it can be ignored as being credible.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 06:09:00 -
[109]
does he not see the irony in his own second paragrpah?
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
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Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 06:10:00 -
[110]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt I am a very important person. I've acquired a genetically altered handshake capable of speeds up to 30 mph. Hair arranged by the most advanced landscape surveillance operators our company can afford.
I have a very expensive pen. I use big words quite often in substitution for semantically equivalent words. I attribute this success to my professional demeanor and my strong stock portfolio.
Though it may not appear so, I am quite comfortable in my surroundings. I have everything, let me show you around. smile you f.ucker, it's not often you get this chance. Love is just an exchangeof corporate documents. I've reviewed your rapport and i feel you're a prospect for mechanical salvation.
This is a joint venture that will be mutually advantageous to both parties involved. Technically this is just a business merger. A consolidation of liquid assets. We are respectively geared towards customer service. There is a great possibility for corporate sponsorship if you're willing, I am sure we could synchronize agendas. Swift, and efficient satisfaction. through innovative planning, we could form a strong strategic partnership capable of overcoming sensitive and adverse predicaments which will be discussed at the next goals assessment meeting. Promotion possibility and additional benefits are diagrammed in my preliminary objective outline. Raises are granted based on performance.
Let me guess, wannabee hedgefund manager?
Plus if you read the context in reverse, it could possibly make sense - like that old saying about country music songs played in reverse.
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Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 06:15:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Tortun Nahme does he not see the irony in his own second paragrpah?
You may want to look up the definition of irony. Then re-read the passage. Then go look to see if your comment still applies. If you still think it does, there must be some way to exploit your comprehension capability for profit.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 06:22:00 -
[112]
I'll take that as a no
I think you need to take a good long look at that post again
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 06:29:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Lord XSiV Let me guess, wannabee hedgefund manager?
There's a street vendor in the financial district who always has the perfect pretzels. That's about all I do down there.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 06:35:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Lord XSiV Oh I just had to respond to this one seperately since Reem just had to try and impress everyone with his ninja-f00 like search skills. Too bad he didn't actually put some thought into what the point was.
Not search skills. Just good memory.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 06:37:00 -
[115]
we are totally like the power rangers of forum warrioring... |
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 06:50:00 -
[116]
Lord is like a wannabe Howard Roark but who is actually a Peter Keating. (Kudos to anyone who knows what I'm talking about.)
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.20 07:04:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Lord XSiV
*----Lots of words about steps in getting CC company response ---*
You seem to not get things here. The CC company will not reverse charges without consulting the company in question first and finding out the validity of the claim. If what you did is directly against the company's policies and those policies are legal, no reversal. Here is a REAL LIFE example:
1) Buy Phillips CD-Burner 2) Give to friend for Christmas 3) Leave country for extended period 4) Doesn't work 5) Friend returns to Phillips. 6) Warranty is void as it is "non-transferable" 7) Contact CC Company (International Phone call). 8) CC Company doesn't reverse charges because if non-transferable warranty. 9) Further research yields court cases upholding above practices.
If you break the EULA and get punished for it, the EULA wins unless it is in itself illegal. Most "consumer protection" laws UPHOLD terms of services and there are very specific rules for legality, I can guarantee you CCP's lawyers do their homework.
Get banned for a EULA violation and the lawyers will file your claim, laughing all the way to the bank because they aren't going to take it on contingency
Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
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Luh Windan
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2008.04.20 07:06:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Lord XSiV
smug self satisfied self import pronouncements about how being able to maximize profits is the only value of importance to a company
Yep - we know exactly what that world looks like where every thing is geared towards getting as much profit from each consumer as possible: Look at the film and music industries - content is secondary to the marketing opportunities. Everything is dumbed down, formulaic. Everyone is looking for the next thing that will appeal to as many people in one go - the lowest common denominator.
The educated , discerning consumer who is unfortunate enough to use their brains is f*cked. Fortunately for us there are lots of other people who make things because they care - the so called 'independants' and if we search them out we do get films that have been made by people that care about the content, music made without record company execs saying "if the next single doesn't reach number 1 then you're out on your ears" (in fact increasingly music made without the record companies) and we get games made by people who are interested in providing an interesting and challenging experience for people with a thirst for that kind of thing. Now this is not going to be the next WoW - no way. WoW is lowest common dominator - they have their 10m subscribers, they have their market slot and that is cool. CCP fortunately for us seem to be treading a line between an interesting and challenging environment and commercial success.
Now of course a commercially minded manager could come in and with the right changes make it a bigger commercial success- off the top of my head: PvP flags , shards , simpler skill and fitting system, get rid of lowsec and possibly 0.0 etc. This would drive away the current user base of course - but why would you want them - they just moan. It would open the door for those 10m users of WoW who are the ones you are really after. On the other hand you would be directly competing with Blizzard for the same user base and you would have a whole other set of challenges.
So at the end of the day you takes your pick. CCP clearly have a decent business model and are making money. In return we get to play a game that is an interesting challenge.
And on a personal note - while you are waving your 'wad' of money around , telling us all what a winner in life you are: I am a moderately successful business owner (and hopefully much more so in the future). The thing I love about this game is that the skills I use in life to build my business bring rewards and success in game. Fro me just buying that success would render them valueless. I guess the key is whether you are interested in the tappings of success and everyone seeing what a 'winner' you are or the less tangible achievements that success brings.
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Trathen
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:12:00 -
[119]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Malcanis
I bet he has Bonitis.
Damnit! That was gonna be my reply!
Also, I love my job. I get to make my own hours, and do what I love. And, the models don't hurt either.
Hahaha my favorite episode. Lord is entertaining, but has a long way to go before he can reach immortal Blake status.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:14:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Lord XSiV
My whole point was to educate and dispute the ignorant fanbois who believe the EULA is some sort of 'bible' that has crossed the digital domain. As a consumer you have rights; those rights are not superceded by some unenforceable agreement outside its context of authority (in this case, the game itself) and those rights should be exercised if there is wrong done to the consumer. Just saying that someone should lose their money and their rights to recourse action cause they broke some rule in a game is completely out to lunch.
But removing ISK is very much within the scope of CCP's authority. CCP explicitly claim ownership of all assets within the game, and seeing as they own the server and control access to it, it seems hard to disagree. How on earth can you say that they are not legally entitled to move, alter or redistribute in-game assets as they choose?
The mere fact that some third party has fraudulently used those assets to deprive you of money does not give you any particular rights to those assets. To use a loose analogy, if you lend me your car, and I take the opportunity to sell it to someone, they don't get to keep your car, and they can't force you to give them the money they paid for it. In that situation you'd tell them to retrieve the money from me. Likewise, the guy who declined to use the correct method of selling GTCs and instead laundered them to an RMT seller should go chase the RMTer if he wants his ISK back.
The service that CCP sell is explicitly this: to access the TQ server when it is running. Nothing more.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:19:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Lord XSiV
Hmm, sounds like you are trying to be impress someone or something to that effect. Well you aren't.
QFI.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:27:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Lord XSiV
*----Lots of words about steps in getting CC company response ---*
You seem to not get things here. The CC company will not reverse charges without consulting the company in question first and finding out the validity of the claim. If what you did is directly against the company's policies and those policies are legal, no reversal. Here is a REAL LIFE example:
1) Buy Phillips CD-Burner 2) Give to friend for Christmas 3) Leave country for extended period 4) Doesn't work 5) Friend returns to Phillips. 6) Warranty is void as it is "non-transferable" 7) Contact CC Company (International Phone call). 8) CC Company doesn't reverse charges because if non-transferable warranty. 9) Further research yields court cases upholding above practices.
If you break the EULA and get punished for it, the EULA wins unless it is in itself illegal. Most "consumer protection" laws UPHOLD terms of services and there are very specific rules for legality, I can guarantee you CCP's lawyers do their homework.
Get banned for a EULA violation and the lawyers will file your claim, laughing all the way to the bank because they aren't going to take it on contingency
Ok one last response to pass the time since you trolls are so fun to get all riled up.
Refer to my earlier post asking if you are in a significant position at a credit card company or financial institution. Since you obviously failed at that requirement you diatrib is useless. Futhermore since you jumped into lawsuits, lawyers, etc it would indicate you are even more clueless and grasping at straws.
But anyhow, it is still fun to play. Your steps 8 and 9 are incorrect. You must be using one of those new fangled credit cards you get from some guy on a street corner. The easy part which indicated the situation was completely false is that you said they contacted Phillips about the warranty 'policy' which in cases like this they don't contact the manufacturer but the retailer. It is the retailer who sold the product with the merchant account, not the manufacturer. Quick go edit it so you can't stop chewing on your cheap shoe.
As for your quip about CCP lawyers, well sure they probably see it as all fine and dandy for Icelandic laws, however when you are dealing with international organizations you need lawyers that specialize with international laws. I highly doubt that they do based upon the EULA itself, but then again how much does it matter if you only have 5% of your customers that would know how to challenge it. Regardless, a basic fundamental flaw people do is listen to their opponent's lawyers, which in itself is a darwin qualifier.
Anyhow, to the rest of you trolls who should return to WoW, or even better yet, return your computers and pledge not to use another electronic device that is more intelligent than yourself, stop being so dam stupid and go find out for yourself about consumer protection rights that credit card companies have in place. If you continue with the belief that there are none, then fine so be it, continue to be some ignorant lacky. Crying on forums when some online company goes out of business and doesn't provide you the service that you paid for won't help you get your charges reversed, knowing how the process works and going through it will.
Just to stick in one last jibe for the pundits, yeah I am better than you. Not only that, but because I know I am better than you rather than just thinking I am or could be better than you makes it that much more plausible. After all, who are you anyway? Do you like matter? Most likely not.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:12:00 -
[123]
Please keep posting. Jenny's really lost her edge lately and we need a new forum clown.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
KapnKaboom
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.04.20 15:04:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Lord XSiV You still don't get it. The person purchased something with real money with the expectation that something was going to be usable in some fashion as advertised. The end result wasn't the usable form of what was intended therefore the individual has a right to be given a replacement or refund.
The sticky point you neophites are all gravitating to is the EULA violation, which was applied in game as intended and to the extent of it's authority. The result however has an impact where the EULA does not have authority and consumer protection does.
So let me summarize and spell it out for you:
1. Person buys product/service using credit card from retailer. Retailer is expected to deliver product/service as intended.
2. Person then takes product/service and uses it for intended purpose.
3. Product/service does not work as intended.
4. Person asks for replacement or refund of defective product/service.
5. a) Retailer provides replacement or refund after being notified by person. Return to #1 or end. b) Retailer refuses to provide replacement or refund and person notifies credit card agency for refund.
6. Credit card agency investigates by asking retailer for proof of delivery/usage of product. * In some countries a written signature on the transaction is required. For these countries this may be a stop in the process as online transactions don't have a person's signature. Regardless, the person is making a claim that the product/service is defective.
7. Person then refutes retailer claim of delivery/usage with statement of defective/unusable product/service.
8. Credit Card company reverses the charge and notifies retailer. Merchant account is then noted. After a number of these, the merchant account can be reviewed by the credit card company as it may indicate that the merchant is not acting in good faith, fraudulently or just has a poor product/service. It may be deemed appropriate to alter the merchant account's T&C by increasing the transaction processing fee, requiring a larger bond deposit or even terminating the merchant account.
Pretty straight forward. The EULA is applied in step #3, but the Credit Card company couldn't care less about a Merchant's policy. The end result is that the consumer didn't recieve a working product/service.
So for this case, the OP has the right to charge back to the retailer who sold the GTC.
Allow me to educate your as to how things really work. (at least here in the USA) The bank I run has run into numerous cases of folks who tried to issue a charge back when they were banned from various online services. The biggest case being folks who violated some rule on World of Warcraft. I have each case investigated and if it was determined that the person bought an online service, such as a game, and got themselves banned for whatever reason, we simply deny the charge back. There was nothing wrong with the service they originally bought. They screwed it up themselves and my bank is not liable for their stupidity. After all, banking is a business and if we let every little nobody out there do this sort of crap, we wouldn't make any money. Some of our customers cancelled their credit cards because of our refusal to subsidise their stupidity. Which is fine, since we are allowed to charge them a cancellation fee which pushes some of them over their limits and allows us to charge additional fees. Consumer protection doesn't come into play because the government has our backs and there is usually nothing the consumer can do. That skilling guy in New York was trying to change some of these practices, but we all saw what happened to him, now didn't we? Bottom line, keep daydreaming, and we'll still keep charging you.
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Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.20 15:14:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Lord XSiV So let me summarize and spell it out for you:
1. Person buys product/service using credit card from retailer. Retailer is expected to deliver product/service as intended.
2. Person then takes product/service and uses it for intended purpose.
And after this point the logic train gets derailed.
You see, the intended purpose of a GTC is to add subscription time to an account. If you want to trade the card, then you must do so using CCP's secure method, period. When you don't use the secure method, you have stepped away from 'intended purpose' because you have used faulty methods to achieve it. At that point the retailer can tell you to go talk a walk.
I also like your walls of text railing about making the game better, and how bad and whiny the community is, when you seem to be the most vocal person in this thread that fits what you complain about.
And before you say the one-liner to try and save yourself don't bother, this is my main.
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Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.20 15:31:00 -
[126]
Originally by: KapnKaboom Allow me to educate your as to how things really work. (at least here in the USA) The bank I run has run into numerous cases of folks who tried to issue a charge back when they were banned from various online services. The biggest case being folks who violated some rule on World of Warcraft. I have each case investigated and if it was determined that the person bought an online service, such as a game, and got themselves banned for whatever reason, we simply deny the charge back. There was nothing wrong with the service they originally bought. They screwed it up themselves and my bank is not liable for their stupidity. After all, banking is a business and if we let every little nobody out there do this sort of crap, we wouldn't make any money. Some of our customers cancelled their credit cards because of our refusal to subsidise their stupidity. Which is fine, since we are allowed to charge them a cancellation fee which pushes some of them over their limits and allows us to charge additional fees. Consumer protection doesn't come into play because the government has our backs and there is usually nothing the consumer can do. That skilling guy in New York was trying to change some of these practices, but we all saw what happened to him, now didn't we? Bottom line, keep daydreaming, and we'll still keep charging you.
It's almost as if the credit companies are trying to maximize profits.
While the time I spent working for a creditor was living hell, I have to agree with the above. When people sign up for something and then got kicked out, or denied something because they broke the rules, we never gave them anything other than a 'sorry have a nice day *click*'.
I'd be very surprised if CCP refunds any part of someone's sub when they get banned, even if they just paid a year's service the day before, as they had done something to get banned in the first place, causing a break in the agreement, just as I'm sure Somethingawful doesn't refund the forum fee when they ban someone.
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Druid R
System-Lords Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.20 15:47:00 -
[127]
The interesting thing perhaps comes from the fct that you do not have to accept the ELA to buy a GTC from a third party retailer afaik. You then have a product you have bought that you cannot use without accepting a EULA that you may not agree with. Would the retailer give you your money back if you said to them that the codes had not been used because you did not accpe the EULA once you read it while installing the game. if they refused then you could conceivably apply for your cc company to return your payment.
Slight tangent I know but interesting I would hope.
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Larg Kellein
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.20 16:05:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Lord XSiV
You still don't get it. The person purchased something with real money with the expectation that something was going to be usable in some fashion as advertised. The end result wasn't the usable form of what was intended therefore the individual has a right to be given a replacement or refund.
The sticky point you neophites are all gravitating to is the EULA violation, which was applied in game as intended and to the extent of it's authority. The result however has an impact where the EULA does not have authority and consumer protection does.
So let me summarize and spell it out for you:
1. Person buys product/service using credit card from retailer. Retailer is expected to deliver product/service as intended.
2. Person then takes product/service and uses it for intended purpose.
3. Product/service does not work as intended.
4. Person asks for replacement or refund of defective product/service.
5. a) Retailer provides replacement or refund after being notified by person. Return to #1 or end. b) Retailer refuses to provide replacement or refund and person notifies credit card agency for refund.
6. Credit card agency investigates by asking retailer for proof of delivery/usage of product. * In some countries a written signature on the transaction is required. For these countries this may be a stop in the process as online transactions don't have a person's signature. Regardless, the person is making a claim that the product/service is defective.
7. Person then refutes retailer claim of delivery/usage with statement of defective/unusable product/service.
8. Credit Card company reverses the charge and notifies retailer. Merchant account is then noted. After a number of these, the merchant account can be reviewed by the credit card company as it may indicate that the merchant is not acting in good faith, fraudulently or just has a poor product/service. It may be deemed appropriate to alter the merchant account's T&C by increasing the transaction processing fee, requiring a larger bond deposit or even terminating the merchant account.
Pretty straight forward. The EULA is applied in step #3, but the Credit Card company couldn't care less about a Merchant's policy. The end result is that the consumer didn't recieve a working product/service.
So for this case, the OP has the right to charge back to the retailer who sold the GTC.
Actually, it's more like this: 1: Consumer buys a time code, advertised as a means to add time to a game account in Eve Online.
2: Consumer chooses to use additional function of said time code as a way to convert it to ingame currency. The game provides a way to do this, which in the process validates said time code as being functional.
3: Consumer chooses not to use this method, but instead transfers a code (product) that he has decided not to validate as functioning. In the process, the breaks the contract he has made with the third party involved in the transaction (CCP, in this case).
4: Consumer, having seen himself foiled by the rules and his own greed, complains to his credit card provider. To do so, he claims that the product was not delivered or was not functional. To do so despite knowing otherwise constitutes fraud. Not on the behalf of the retailer, but the consumer.
Any chargeback can be subject to investigation prior to the actual chargeback, and part of that process is verification that the consumer has made reasonable efforts to ensure delivery and suitability of the product or service. Not using the code either directly on a game account, thereby validating it, or using the secure transfer, also validating it, rules out this due dilligence by the consumer. If the consumer says he has taken reasonable steps but has not, this would (in most countries) constitute credit card fraud. Obviously, this will be different from country to country, but the bank I work at sure as hell doesn't do chargebacks on word alone.
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Dungheap
Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:05:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Lord XSiV
yap yap yap
\o Lord X, i see you've still got that bad case of oral diarhea ..
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doctorstupid2
Blood Corsair's Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:18:00 -
[130]
Edited by: doctorstupid2 on 20/04/2008 19:18:18
Originally by: Lord XSiV Hmm, sounds like you are trying to be impress someone or something to that effect. Well you aren't. In fact the opposite. Successful people don't go on gloating about 'how much they make' or 'I made xyz when I was 4 years old in pre-school, yada, yada'. It is personal information; to disclose would be bad form and lacks any class. The affluent know, they know the people around them know they are affluent and they don't need to advertise or brag.
Conversely, preaching that people you know nothing about should go get a job and quit being so jealous of people that buy fake internet spaceship money is top class?
I never bragged that going to college was impressive, though 80k annually at 20 years old in a self-founded, successful business is a bit above average, I'd say. Can I have my infinite rockets now?
Nostalgia | Deadspace2 | Deadspace |
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Decarus
Amarr Mind and Matter
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:25:00 -
[131]
The internet: A place where everybody is a hot 18 year old D-cup blonde with a PhD in law.
Carelol.
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Trathen
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:41:00 -
[132]
David Cross as Lord XSiV
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Karlemgne
Tides Of War
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:49:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Luh Windan
c) why did the original buyer just not buy a GTC themselves
Exactly this.
Sounds a bit odd that someone would buy isk for $, and then use the isk to buy a gtc.
Actually, for awhile there I was told that it was cheaper to purchase isk, then use that purchased isk to buy GTCs, than it was to either pay CCP directly, or buy the GTC yourself.
At least for Canadian players. If there was any truth to this, it would be a proper motive for purchasing isk then using that isk for GT.
Karl
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Dead6re
Amarr The Knighthawks Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.04.20 21:04:00 -
[134]
There is one slight problemwith the EULA and any agreements found in IT and on the computer.
The question is:
How legally binding are click-through agreements?
Looking over past cases, the USA seem to say they aren't binding whereas the EU say they are. Its generally mixed.
Quote: CCP Sharkbait: i'm using vista 3bit business and i have no problems at all with most things really, including Eve.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 21:06:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Decarus The internet: A place where everybody is a hot 18 year old D-cup blonde with a PhD in law.
Carelol.
That's entirely not true, I am only a C.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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nahtoh
Caldari Bull Industries United For 0rder
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:26:00 -
[136]
Edited by: nahtoh on 20/04/2008 22:26:39 Glad to see that I was correct on the charge back operation...
But Lord hotair could be the go to guy for his place of employment....lord hotair go to coffee stand, go to laundry and pick up the bosses laundry etc ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
Jmanis Catharg
Caldari Stickler inc
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:32:00 -
[137]
Don't buy isk.
zomg problem solved
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Macdeth
Ephemeral Misgivings
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:43:00 -
[138]
Originally by: GM Guard A note to everyone else reading this, we NEVER reverse GTC sales that are performed with our secure ETC trading system. Straight donations and other kinds of transactions from ISK sellers are however routinely reversed, even if people claim that GTCs were traded for the ISK and not real money. Selling ETCs outside the secure system is a EULA violation and trading ETCs with ISK sellers insecurely is completely indistinguishable from ISK purchasing.
So what, pray tell, will you do when isk sellers start buying 30d timecodes from their customers through the secure system for ten or twenty billion isk each? Easy easy loophole.
If you had a real market system for trading timecodes, with global buy & sell orders, this would be impossible to abuse in this manner.
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ghard1
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:45:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Lord XSiV Ask for replacement GTCs from the vendor you got them from as obviously they were defective/not honored by CCP. If vendor refuses, contact your credit card company that you purchased the GTCs with (if you didn't use a cc, then too bad) and ask for a charge back. It is actually a fairly easy process.
Don't bother petitioning the GMs; they just don't care, so go straight to the vendor.
And regardless of what any forum troll says that it can't be done, blah, blah, just ignore. The reason you use a credit card online is for the consumer protection against actions like this. You purchased something and it didn't work as it was intended, end of story, get your money back.
in addition when telling your credit card company about a transaction such as this (or any transaction i find) tell them you have been scammed/defrauded dont say the item you bought was faulty say you bought an item and it was fraudulent i find you get your cash back 100% of the time this way but if you say i bought an item and it didnt do what it was supposed to it takes a few weeks and has a 50:50 chance of working
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Cpt Branko
Surge. Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.21 17:55:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/04/2008 18:02:31 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/04/2008 17:58:13
Originally by: Lord XSiV
You didn't catch the flip on it did you. Or read the entire context. Was it because you were so entrenched to argue anything that your anticipation got the best of you?
Nice dodging.
Originally by: Lord XSiV
What I do is: Direct name calling Unfounded and unsubstantiated accusations More direct name calling Claims of sssociation to entities that violate game rules The standard 'You don't have a clue/know what you are talking about' More name calling
Yes, we can see that is precisely what you do, in addition to claiming that you're a big man in RL and have a vast and extensive knowledge about things you have no clue about (chargeback... yeah, right, inform me how that goes in this case).
So all you do is just keep on sprouting what a big man you are (which I find highly dubious to begin with) and how everyone else is either a troll or ignorant, then some more CCP bashing.
Basically, the issue is that the guy most likely didn't do it through secure trade (since secure trade reversals don't happen) ,and while someone might or might not like the GTC trade, it's totally irrelevant for the discussion. What we most likely have is a EULA violation, which, I'm sure you realize, entitles you to nothing at all including chargeback (you don't get chargeback if the goods were delivered which they were and you do something which expressly violates the TOS or warranty).
He is free to try though. Claiming that he was defrauded is fraud in its own right as the product WAS delivered.
Originally by: Macdeth
So what, pray tell, will you do when isk sellers start buying 30d timecodes from their customers through the secure system for ten or twenty billion isk each? Easy easy loophole.
If you had a real market system for trading timecodes, with global buy & sell orders, this would be impossible to abuse in this manner.
This man has a good point Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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Kashif Habad
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Posted - 2008.04.21 23:54:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Lord XSiV
2. It would be good to actually get the whiners to quit. They do nothing to promote the game and are a drain on resources. If you look at the 'whiners base' it is most likely comprised mainly of single subscription players, many of those using the GTC system and not contributing any solid stable revenue numbers anyhow.
3. You get much higher revenue from those who are willing to spend more money for more options. It's called the 'add-on' or ancilliary revenue. [...] and a lot of other 'analyst standpoints'
Dear Lord Xsiv, Take this advise from a german: Your plan to remove all the 'whiners' and 'crybabies' from a community to make it a better place for the 'whole' because the 'good' players are better for the game anyhow has -to much regret- been tried already. I can tell you it is not gonna work out very well ;)
Especially when it is coming from people claiming to be better than others because 'they are more successful in life, can you see'.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.04.22 00:01:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Macdeth So what, pray tell, will you do when isk sellers start buying 30d timecodes from their customers through the secure system for ten or twenty billion isk each? Easy easy loophole.
If you had a real market system for trading timecodes, with global buy & sell orders, this would be impossible to abuse in this manner.
The obvious solution for that would be to reverse the trade and, as the old timecode is invalidated, give the player a new one.
Of course this might bring some internal coordination issues as GMs are not marketing. But I am sure CCP can solve that minor issue should it become necessary. -------- Ideas for: Mining Clouds
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.22 01:23:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Macdeth
So what, pray tell, will you do when isk sellers start buying 30d timecodes from their customers through the secure system for ten or twenty billion isk each? Easy easy loophole.
Doesn't work like that. The GTC is automatically applied to the account; meaning no real life cash can be gleamed from it.
So the person "sells" the ISK seller a GTC through the secure trade system for 10b ISK; the seller's account now is paid up for another 30 days, it can't be transfered
Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.22 01:56:00 -
[144]
WTS 90 day GTC for 10 Billion isk \o/ |
Macdeth
Ephemeral Misgivings
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Posted - 2008.04.23 01:13:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Macdeth
So what, pray tell, will you do when isk sellers start buying 30d timecodes from their customers through the secure system for ten or twenty billion isk each? Easy easy loophole.
Doesn't work like that. The GTC is automatically applied to the account; meaning no real life cash can be gleamed from it.
So the person "sells" the ISK seller a GTC through the secure trade system for 10b ISK; the seller's account now is paid up for another 30 days, it can't be transfered
You're not thinking it through.
1) Isk buyer spends (say) $250 on isk at random isk seller website. 2) Isk seller website gives buyer a valid 30d timecode they purchased elsewhere. 3) Isk seller website tells buyer - "Go log in here - Pick the character you would like to have receive your isk - Put "NAME" without quotes into the 'Sell to' box - Input FAKE-TIME-CODE-487AE-48321 as your EVE Time Code, with an amount of ______. - Click next then confirm to complete the order. - Your isk will be delivered in X minutes.
Please note that if you input the wrong amount or character, we will not be able to complete your order until they are corrected. (etc, etc.)
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.04.23 01:32:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Macdeth
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Macdeth
So what, pray tell, will you do when isk sellers start buying 30d timecodes from their customers through the secure system for ten or twenty billion isk each? Easy easy loophole.
Doesn't work like that. The GTC is automatically applied to the account; meaning no real life cash can be gleamed from it.
So the person "sells" the ISK seller a GTC through the secure trade system for 10b ISK; the seller's account now is paid up for another 30 days, it can't be transfered
You're not thinking it through.
1) Isk buyer spends (say) $250 on isk at random isk seller website. 2) Isk seller website gives buyer a valid 30d timecode they purchased elsewhere. 3) Isk seller website tells buyer - "Go log in here - Pick the character you would like to have receive your isk - Put "NAME" without quotes into the 'Sell to' box - Input FAKE-TIME-CODE-487AE-48321 as your EVE Time Code, with an amount of ______. - Click next then confirm to complete the order. - Your isk will be delivered in X minutes.
Please note that if you input the wrong amount or character, we will not be able to complete your order until they are corrected. (etc, etc.)
CPP finds out that there was a ISK sale going on. CCP removes bought ISK from the player. CCP gives player a new timecode. Player realizes he bought a 30 day timecode for 250$ and weeps. -------- Ideas for: Mining Clouds
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Macdeth
Ephemeral Misgivings
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Posted - 2008.04.23 01:52:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Abrazzar
Originally by: Macdeth
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Macdeth
So what, pray tell, will you do when isk sellers start buying 30d timecodes from their customers through the secure system for ten or twenty billion isk each? Easy easy loophole.
Doesn't work like that. The GTC is automatically applied to the account; meaning no real life cash can be gleamed from it.
So the person "sells" the ISK seller a GTC through the secure trade system for 10b ISK; the seller's account now is paid up for another 30 days, it can't be transfered
You're not thinking it through.
1) Isk buyer spends (say) $250 on isk at random isk seller website. 2) Isk seller website gives buyer a valid 30d timecode they purchased elsewhere. 3) Isk seller website tells buyer - "Go log in here - Pick the character you would like to have receive your isk - Put "NAME" without quotes into the 'Sell to' box - Input FAKE-TIME-CODE-487AE-48321 as your EVE Time Code, with an amount of ______. - Click next then confirm to complete the order. - Your isk will be delivered in X minutes.
Please note that if you input the wrong amount or character, we will not be able to complete your order until they are corrected. (etc, etc.)
CPP finds out that there was a ISK sale going on. CCP removes bought ISK from the player. CCP gives player a new timecode. Player realizes he bought a 30 day timecode for 250$ and weeps.
Aside from the current policy meant to make players feel secure using CCP's web exchange for them being:
Originally by: GM Guard A note to everyone else reading this, we NEVER reverse GTC sales that are performed with our secure ETC trading system.
The point is that they have gained precious little by forcing everyone to use the (pretty terrible) secure system.
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