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Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2008.04.18 07:53:00 -
[1]
CCP, A question I would like to have answered:
What if all the CSMs put in a vote to make EVE way more carebear? Will CCP comply? What if the CSMs are asking CCP to do major changes in the game, will CCP comply?
Will CCP keep to their main intention - the red line through EVE - no matter what the CSMs are proposing?
Democracy is NICE, but by damn it have its flaws. And in this situation it can ruin a game.
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Trinity Dusk
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.04.18 07:56:00 -
[2]
The council is advisory only. CCP will make their own decisions. |
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.18 08:00:00 -
[3]
Until things actually start to happen CSM is just a PR-stunt. I hope to be proven way wrong though.
Secure 3rd party service ■ Do you Veldspar? |
Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2008.04.18 08:02:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 18/04/2008 08:01:58
 Originally by: Trinity Dusk
The council is advisory only. CCP will make their own decisions.
I certainly hope so.
The problem is: Why take all the hassle of setting down a board of CSMs if you are only going to listen to them? Why bring them to Iceland if their points have no value?
I am afraid that with all the work and money CCP have spent on this, they will be willing to listen to maybe not so good advices?
Originally by: Dianabolic
Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL |
Frug
Repo Industries
R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.04.18 08:05:00 -
[5]
afaik the CSM's don't put in votes. They're just supposed to communicate our issues to CCP.
In essence, they do nothing and won't influence much at all. :D
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - -
If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO
BOOO!! - Ductoris
Neat look what I found - Kreul
Hey, my marbles |
Sylthi
Minmatar
Coreward Pan-Galactic
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Posted - 2008.04.18 08:14:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Frug
In essence, they do nothing and won't influence much at all. :D
Not true at all. The CSM are supposed to read the forums and listen to the player base, thereby bringing the concerns of the "little people" to the gods on high. I.E. The devs. In this way, the devs will no longer have to dirty themsleves with direct contact to the "lesser beings" and can thereby busy themselves with whatever gods busy themselves with.
So, the first part of your statement is wrong. The CSM, in actuallity, will DO SOMETHING. Even though you were off to a shaky start, you then moved on to the second part of your statement, which rings absolutely true. So, good on you for that.
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Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2008.04.18 08:19:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sylthi
Originally by: Frug
In essence, they do nothing and won't influence much at all. :D
Not true at all. The CSM are supposed to read the forums and listen to the player base, thereby bringing the concerns of the "little people" to the gods on high. I.E. The devs. In this way, the devs will no longer have to dirty themsleves with direct contact to the "lesser beings" and can thereby busy themselves with whatever gods busy themselves with.
So, the first part of your statement is wrong. The CSM, in actuallity, will DO SOMETHING. Even though you were off to a shaky start, you then moved on to the second part of your statement, which rings absolutely true. So, good on you for that.
The problem is if they stop direct involment with the playerbase, just because they have got the CSM to do this work for them, they have allready lost. Have they not?
I agree, a board of CSM can be helpfull bringing info to the devs. What our conserns are etc. But if CCP stops with direct involment because of it - thats simply really really bad.. Not that I think they do ofcource.
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Aclyn Seriy
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.04.18 09:29:00 -
[8]
Why don't we just ask CCP what role the CSM will actually play in the everyday running of EVE?
Originally by: Tobias Xiaosen
Optimus Prime in a kayak
Thank Veld for Chribba
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Mutabae
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Posted - 2008.04.18 11:28:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 18/04/2008 08:01:58
Originally by: Trinity Dusk
The council is advisory only. CCP will make their own decisions.
I certainly hope so.
The problem is: Why take all the hassle of setting down a board of CSMs if you are only going to listen to them? Why bring them to Iceland if their points have no value?
I am afraid that with all the work and money CCP have spent on this, they will be willing to listen to maybe not so good advices?
The CSM is a PR stunt. It's a watered down and mangled result of the Goon threadnought about T20. No more, no less.
Just think of the CSM as a walking and talking forum complaint rendering machine pandering to the larger complaints from the vocal forum dwellers, and you have it in totality.
No power and likely no importance or permanence.
I'd prefer CCP hire a person to distill the common complaints from the forums and relay those to the relevant devs. More efficient and likely mnore effective in the long term...
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.04.18 11:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
CCP, A question I would like to have answered:
What if all the CSMs put in a vote to make EVE way more carebear? Will CCP comply? What if the CSMs are asking CCP to do major changes in the game, will CCP comply?
Will CCP keep to their main intention - the red line through EVE - no matter what the CSMs are proposing?
Democracy is NICE, but by damn it have its flaws. And in this situation it can ruin a game.
Why do you think it will become way more carebear ish?
Again, i will make the point i have made 1000 times now.
Just because some of us are most known for being carebears, we still have pvp alts, which we enjoy flying.
So in that regard, i doubt you will see it being the case that CSM will advice CCP to make it more of a carebear game.
Also, your logic is that CSM has power to change things. They don't. They role is to present the views of the COMMUNITY. Its a sole advisory role, nothing else.
CCP can turn down things if they dont feel like doing it, its that simple.
 |
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.04.18 11:36:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Mutabae
I'd prefer CCP hire a person to distill the common complaints from the forums and relay those to the relevant devs. More efficient and likely mnore effective in the long term...
Your logic is flawed.
The idea is that CSM has to present the opinion of the community if 1% of the community supports any certain idea. So it's not a question of CSM having power, its the COMMUNITY which has the power, and nominates spokes people to collection all this discussion, and forward it to CCP and discuss it with them. |
Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.04.18 11:39:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Sylthi
Originally by: Frug
In essence, they do nothing and won't influence much at all. :D
Not true at all. The CSM are supposed to read the forums and listen to the player base, thereby bringing the concerns of the "little people" to the gods on high. I.E. The devs. In this way, the devs will no longer have to dirty themsleves with direct contact to the "lesser beings" and can thereby busy themselves with whatever gods busy themselves with.
So, the first part of your statement is wrong. The CSM, in actuallity, will DO SOMETHING. Even though you were off to a shaky start, you then moved on to the second part of your statement, which rings absolutely true. So, good on you for that.
Wait... the real reason for the CSM is so that the DEVS can keep focusing on guzzling down bree, and they bring over the CSM guys to iceland to use them as waiters so they don't have to get out of their bed/chair?
brilliant! |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.04.18 12:05:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Originally by: Sylthi
Originally by: Frug
In essence, they do nothing and won't influence much at all. :D
Not true at all. The CSM are supposed to read the forums and listen to the player base, thereby bringing the concerns of the "little people" to the gods on high. I.E. The devs. In this way, the devs will no longer have to dirty themsleves with direct contact to the "lesser beings" and can thereby busy themselves with whatever gods busy themselves with.
So, the first part of your statement is wrong. The CSM, in actuallity, will DO SOMETHING. Even though you were off to a shaky start, you then moved on to the second part of your statement, which rings absolutely true. So, good on you for that.
Wait... the real reason for the CSM is so that the DEVS can keep focusing on guzzling down bree, and they bring over the CSM guys to iceland to use them as waiters so they don't have to get out of their bed/chair?
brilliant!
Sounds awesome to me. We all heard about the power of suggestion. Couple this with alcohol in the blood of the victim!  |
MongWen
Farmer Killers
United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.04.18 12:48:00 -
[14]
The CSM shod not have any real power, to be honest I donÆt want them to have any power to change things, the only thing I want them to have is the voice that CCP hears and take under advisement, and if CCP likes what the CSM is putting forth then itÆs a good thing, and if they donÆt like it, they shod/will give a reason why they donÆt like it.
As for the link between the community the CSM are players, they shod voice the concerns off the players, and if the CSM panel donÆt like the issue/idea/solution they can also say no to bringing it to CCP with a reason why they donÆt want to raise it to the CCP panel.
And I think people commonly think that the CSM is a PR stunt, and it may well be that, but that remains to be seen. And the fact is that we have 64 candidates (at the moment, since some might withdraw). And it might have something to do with to little information that is released to the public, and the public not reading it.
And only the future can tell if the CSM will work or not. |
Shanur
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.18 13:04:00 -
[15]
It's wrong to see the CSM as a form of "player democracy". They have no power whatsoever in deciding what direction EVE will take and in what order issues get fixed in game.
The best way to see them is as an "official response" pipeline by which people can "force" CCP to give an in depth answer to their "posting" without the need to bump or flame it a zillion times to get it noticed and responded to by a dev. Essentially, if you have something that you want to know CCP's vision on (which is pretty much all posts in this forum with "CCP READ!" added to the title), you now have a way in which you are guaranteed to get a response from CCP. All you have to do is get the issue noticed by the CSM and have them vote to bring it up with CCP. You'll then get your response. Of course CCP still has every right to give you an answer that you don't like, but at least you got your response.
Originally by: Malcanis
Too many people confuse "Waah, I didn't get my own way" with 'poor customer service'.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.04.18 15:50:00 -
[16]
I'm really not sure why so many people (candidates included) are keen to diminish the perception of power and influence the CSM body will have. There intention is very clear in the documents released -> the CSM has both power and responsible; for the first time in the history of Eve online we have as players the opportunity to suggest the direction of future game development and focus and if we can agree in council on specific proposals CCP are bound to implement or provide substantive explanation as to why these proposals will not be implemented.
This is a huge step forward in player interactivity and involvement in the future of Eve Online. If CSM reps go to Iceland and agree that x,y,z proposals need to be brought before the CCP council then these things will happen or we'll know why not. There won't be any more fuzzy promised but not delivered features and general apathy over these issues. If the CSM council goes ahead and tells CCP that POS warfare is broken and Cyno Jammers need radically reducing in significance and role then this is going to happen or the development team is going to have to come up with strong arguments to the Eve public explaining why these things can't happen.
Its a huge improvement in transparency of decision-making and in reality is going to empower all Eve players in the development arena of this game to a previously unheard of level. If the CSM reps do a good job and make a positive influence and transfer passion and vision to the advantage of all its going to be immensely important for everyone.
Speaking personally - I'm not standing in these CSM elections for free airticket and some Icelandic food -> I'm standing because I think there are some serious problems with aspects of this game at the moment and I want to commit my time and enthusiasm to putting these things right. I want to make eve better, more dynamic, more visionary and exciting and keep this environment electric and politically-charged for new generations of players and existing veterans alike.
I'm not going to sit on some dull administrative committee and discuss hit point buffs on tech1 frigates for a skanky PR stunt- I'm going there to help correct some big mistakes and let the developers know what needs to change to make this great game better yet. If that means I've got to persuade, seduce, get drunk and dance with the devs I'm going to do it - because it needs to be done for all our good. CSM candidates need to be enthusiastic and committed players who enjoy this game and have the scope of experience to see the big picture and represent the opinions of playstyles and interest groups from the live-server.
In short I've read PTtur +skarsson's PDF document very carefully and I'm going to take him at his word. My campaign is about Space Combat Dynamism in 0.0 and Empire Conflict and ways these things can be enhanced and improved. I'm an Eve Pvp'er, a roleplayer, a fan of experimental tactics, a CEO, and veteran of wars and territorial strife and I believe my campaign represents a broad opinion from players like me, that certain changes need to happen and particular areas of the game need additional development focus and game balance redesign.
I'm standing for CSM to present and argue that viewpoint and I'm promising here and now to do the level best I can to make these things happen. But I wouldn't even be bothering if I honestly thought the CSM was going to be a toothless talking shop sop to PR needs and wasn't going to change anything. If that was the case I'd be putting my creative efforts into the next major campaign against my in-game enemies and not devoting my full attention to getting elected and pushing through general improvements in conflict methodology for the whole server.
Have a bit of faith guys end of the day. Lets try being glass half full people for a moment and expect the best from the CSM process. Its a game, its our hobby, its our passion. And I for one am not giving up on it.
CSM Election Manifesto 2008 |
NeoTheo
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2008.04.18 16:08:00 -
[17]
this is the problem as far as i am concerned, players only see things from there own point of view, some are caught up on RP, other graphs etc...
tbh i see the CSM as a BAD thing, its always a BAD thing when players get 2 much say in what next...
Goumindong becoming someone with power scares the crap out of me, (as does everyone else tbh but he worries me on a personal level), mainly because his suggestions are anti my opinions in lots of ways and therefore another player will effecting my experiance at a Back end level.
if i had to have 1 person, i would have like to seen a campaign from someone that explains how they are going to gauge the community issues and run votes, polls of issues etc, not "what i think is wrong" like everyone else.
very few of the candidates actaully tell us how they plan to deal with OUR ISSUES, they only tell us what they think the issues are, and that TBH blows. |
Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.04.18 16:13:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 18/04/2008 16:15:21
When will it get through your heads...
It doesn't MATTER which 'side' the CSM is on since all they do is gather and relay info from to forums to the DEVS. The second one of them pushes through his own agendas or starts to develop selective hearing he will most probably be called on it. What amazes me is the fact that the people who run for CSM either don't understand this or just put it aside to try and get people to vote for them.
ALL that a CSM member needs is to be able to listen, to communicate and to formulate questions and replies without bias. If there is any bias then he's not doing his job right.
So, as per usual when it comes to elections like this, the best candidates would be the ones who DIDN'T run for CSM.
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NeoTheo
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2008.04.18 16:18:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 18/04/2008 16:15:21
When will it get through your heads...
It doesn't MATTER which 'side' the CSM is on since all they do is gather and relay info from to forums to the DEVS. The second one of them pushes through his own agendas or starts to develop selective hearing he will most probably be called on it. What amazes me is the fact that the people who run for CSM either don't understand this or just put it aside to try and get people to vote for them.
ALL that a CSM member needs is to be able to listen, to communicate and to formulate questions and replies without bias. If there is any bias then he's not doing his job right.
So, as per usual when it comes to elections like this, the best candidates would be the ones who DIDN'T run for CSM.
So yher, thats why 90% of them have 10 page docuements explaining what they think is wrong with the game rather than just manifestos explaining how they plan to communicate with CCP.
:/
I dont want someone to tell me what they think is wrong with the game, i want someone to tell me how they intend to gather our data and disscusions and provide feedback to us.
/Theo.
Neotheo
Dark Materials
Linkage
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Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.04.18 16:20:00 -
[20]
Bingo
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Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.04.18 16:25:00 -
[21]
Originally by: NeoTheo
this is the problem as far as i am concerned, players only see things from there own point of view, some are caught up on RP, other graphs etc... tbh i see the CSM as a BAD thing, its always a BAD thing when players get 2 much say in what next...
Thing is though, decision was made by CCP to pursue representative democracy in the player arena. That cat is out of the bag. For better or worse the Eve player base is going to get the representation it deserves and votes for. The best thing any player can do at this point is become informed of the issues, read the manifestos, check out the posting records of candidates and get a feel for these people running for election and cast your vote accordingly. Apathy is no longer an option because if you don't cast a vote you are just opting out of the decision-making at this very important juncture.
Quote:
Goumindong becoming someone with power scares the crap out of me, (as does everyone else tbh but he worries me on a personal level), mainly because his suggestions are anti my opinions in lots of ways and therefore another player will effecting my experiance at a Back end level.
Well, here is the thing. In the history of Eve certain players have always had disproportionate influence over the development of the game - this is fact. Whether it be by spamming out all balance forums with repetitive posts, by organizing threadnaughts and protests - by utilizing broken game mechanics and forcing knee jerk change, by volunteering, by bug-hunting, by writing decent and well-thought out analysis. People that care to do something have influence and influence change NeoTheo - this is just a fact of life.
The big advantage of the CSM process now is that its going to become more transparent and accountable. And you are going to have a vote. Think about it for a minute - democracy can be pretty scary, the idea that some popularist nutter gets voted in by thousands of people you don't know can be massively alienating. But whats the alternative? Government by secret pressure groups and unaccountable lobbyists representing hidden interests? Corruption in other words. CSM is going to be flawed in the way democracy is flawed but not for nothing did Churchill quip "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."
Its honestly better to have some accountability in voting records and let these representatives stand and be judged on their records than keep influencing secretly regardless.
Quote:
if i had to have 1 person, i would have like to seen a campaign from someone that explains how they are going to gauge the community issues and run votes, polls of issues etc, not "what i think is wrong" like everyone else.
Point is we're not getting 1 person, we're getting 9. Its not going to be a tyranny its going to be a council. And you really aren't going to get 9 complete paragons of dispassionate objective (nonhuman) unbiased cypher-like individuals anywhere in this world game or no game. You are going to be voting on may 5th to put those people you think understand and express your issues into the CSM. After that point you're going to be counting on those people to represent your interests in council for 6months and then you'll get another vote to decide how well they did.
Quote:
very few of the candidates actaully tell us how they plan to deal with OUR ISSUES, they only tell us what they think the issues are, and that TBH blows.
What are your issues NeoTheo?
CSM Election Manifesto 2008 |
Max Torps
Gallente
eXceed Inc.
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.18 16:25:00 -
[22]
Originally by: NeoTheo
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 18/04/2008 16:15:21
When will it get through your heads...
It doesn't MATTER which 'side' the CSM is on since all they do is gather and relay info from to forums to the DEVS. The second one of them pushes through his own agendas or starts to develop selective hearing he will most probably be called on it. What amazes me is the fact that the people who run for CSM either don't understand this or just put it aside to try and get people to vote for them.
ALL that a CSM member needs is to be able to listen, to communicate and to formulate questions and replies without bias. If there is any bias then he's not doing his job right.
So, as per usual when it comes to elections like this, the best candidates would be the ones who DIDN'T run for CSM.
So yher, thats why 90% of them have 10 page docuements explaining what they think is wrong with the game rather than just manifestos explaining how they plan to communicate with CCP.
:/
I dont want someone to tell me what they think is wrong with the game, i want someone to tell me how they intend to gather our data and disscusions and provide feedback to us.
/Theo.
In my manifesto I have consistently stated that I have no agenda and will push forward player views. I do of course have my own views and they are published.
Part of this role, even though you have the possibility of pushing your own agenda, is to be open to new ideas and new ways of looking at things. Another important ability is to be able to work with others.
The election itself is a very good example and it is fascinating to see how some candidates respond to one another now. How will they respond when elected? Will they be able to function as a team?
The way the CSM gather information is described in the CSM documents and it is via a moderated CSM forum. That's where feedback will also be relayed.
EvE blogspace, free! |
Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach
Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.04.18 16:30:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
So, as per usual when it comes to elections like this, the best candidates would be the ones who DIDN'T run for CSM.
I vote for Tzar'rim.
0_\
Slade |
Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.04.18 16:36:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Originally by: Tzar'rim
So, as per usual when it comes to elections like this, the best candidates would be the ones who DIDN'T run for CSM.
I vote for Tzar'rim.
0_\
Slade
No thanks.
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Max Torps
Gallente
eXceed Inc.
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.18 16:36:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Point is we're not getting 1 person, we're getting 9. Its not going to be a tyranny its going to be a council. And you really aren't going to get 9 complete paragons of dispassionate objective (nonhuman) unbiased cypher-like individuals anywhere in this world game or no game.
This is very true. While I have no doubt that people will attempt to relay player views by the letter, there is little doubt that during discussion members will either fall back to their own ideals or even misunderstand someones perspective.
That is the point of discussion and where these things come to light.
I think what people mean when they say they they want someone unbiased and some candidate claims they are, is someone who will represent their views as best as possible rather than have an agenda of their own from the outset.
But I think there are pros and cons to both sides of this and it's all good. With Jade, you know what you are getting, as some other candidates. If you want some attempt at a neutral point of view there are also some other good candidates.
Time will tell. |
NeoTheo
Dark Materials
|
Posted - 2008.04.18 16:52:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
What are your issues NeoTheo?
not sure this is the place for it, i need to leave work now, so ill try to reply later tonight.
thanks for taking the time to reply - once ive got home form work ill try to put something together that makes more sense than my above dribble ;)
And oh, to you... its Neo, or just Theo :P
/Theo
Neotheo
Dark Materials
Linkage
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach
Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.04.18 17:13:00 -
[27]
I see CSM running like a debate committee of sorts. Have the pros and cons of each topic covered by CSM so as to limit the potential for biases coming to far to the forefront.
I suggest that all formal meetings between CCP and the CSM board be provided to the community via video preferably, or by recording. Coverage done through EVE TV would be ideal. I know this could be a hot topic, but I believe that this would help ensure that things are covered in an unbiased fashion. I would help insure each topic is handled with CSM providing equal and unbiased discussion hitting the various viewpoints.
I have not heard this idea brought up, but I thought that it could be a good thing to discuss.
Slade
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach
Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.04.18 17:25:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Originally by: Tzar'rim
So, as per usual when it comes to elections like this, the best candidates would be the ones who DIDN'T run for CSM.
I vote for Tzar'rim.
0_\
Slade
No thanks.
I know, saw your post a few days ago in a thread and someone accused you of running and you said the same.
Never believed it, never saw anything remotely like campaigning, just think you do make many good points.
Slade |
MongWen
Farmer Killers
United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.04.18 17:25:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
I see CSM running like a debate committee of sorts. Have the pros and cons of each topic covered by CSM so as to limit the potential for biases coming to far to the forefront.
I suggest that all formal meetings between CCP and the CSM board be provided to the community via video preferably, or by recording. Coverage done through EVE TV would be ideal. I know this could be a hot topic, but I believe that this would help ensure that things are covered in an unbiased fashion. I would help insure each topic is handled with CSM providing equal and unbiased discussion hitting the various viewpoints.
I have not heard this idea brought up, but I thought that it could be a good thing to discuss.
Slade
I am all for that idea, tho that depends on the terms of the NDA that the CSM members has to sign (why we have to sign it may have to do with info regarding stuff that is not be made public or something like that.).
-------------------------
Vote MongWen For The CMS. [Campaign Site]
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Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.04.18 17:34:00 -
[30]
Originally by: NeoTheo
not sure this is the place for it, i need to leave work now, so ill try to reply later tonight.
thanks for taking the time to reply - once ive got home form work ill try to put something together that makes more sense than my above dribble ;) And oh, to you... its Neo, or just Theo :P
/Theo
No problems Theo, I'll have a look at what you say later on. To be honest one of the best things about this CSM is getting to know a bunch of new people in the process, always interested to know the things other people consider the biggest issues facing Eve at the moment.
CSM Election Manifesto 2008 |
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Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.04.18 17:36:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
I see CSM running like a debate committee of sorts. Have the pros and cons of each topic covered by CSM so as to limit the potential for biases coming to far to the forefront. I suggest that all formal meetings between CCP and the CSM board be provided to the community via video preferably, or by recording. Coverage done through EVE TV would be ideal. I know this could be a hot topic, but I believe that this would help ensure that things are covered in an unbiased fashion. I would help insure each topic is handled with CSM providing equal and unbiased discussion hitting the various viewpoints.I have not heard this idea brought up, but I thought that it could be a good thing to discuss. Slade
I've got no problems with the concept in theory - whether CCP can justify the Eve-tv production effort is another matter. At the very least I'd expect complete minutes of the meetings and perhaps audio track. Its certainly a very good idea to have the candidates accountable to the electorate and for the general eve public to see exactly how their chosen candidates perform at the council level.
CSM Election Manifesto 2008 |
Cipher7
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.04.18 17:51:00 -
[32]
It remains to be seen whether CSM is just a "gimmick" or a serious attempt to "democratize" Eve.
Lets assume for a minute that it's serious.
Why exactly shouldn't the playerbase determine the direction of the game?
If there are "care bears" then its CCP's job to serve that segment of the playerbase also.
It gets tiresome hearing the same "Eve is this" "Eve is that" when right ftom the beginning CCP told us that its an open sandbox.
Nowhere is it etched in stone that Eve is a "dark, cold, uncaring [insert more EMO bullschit here] world."
Eve is whatever we make it.
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach
Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.04.18 17:52:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 18/04/2008 17:53:38
Originally by: MongWen
I am all for that idea, tho that depends on the terms of the NDA that the CSM members has to sign (why we have to sign it may have to do with info regarding stuff that is not be made public or something like that.).
I can see how a NDA could cause a problem with presenting the formal meetings to the EVE public. But the meeting could be televised/broadcasted on a dely to allow for censoring or they could be presented after a time for editing.
I do pose this question though. If the CSM is a community representitive and there is information that they are privy to then are we not also privy to that info since we are the community? Any reason that CCP could give to counter a CSM argument or idea is something that the community should be allowed to hear. Or will the CSM committee become a secret keeping buffer between CCP and the EVE communite?
Slade |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.18 18:04:00 -
[34]
Snore.
Advisory group.
Snore.
Free trip to Iceland.
Snore.
Much ado about nothing.
CSM's are to present some sort of unified player voice on various issues to CCP. There's nothing more to it. The only red line involved will be the one noone can walk straight after multiple overpriced beers on CCP's tab  .
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
LoneStar Industries
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.04.18 18:36:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 18/04/2008 18:37:11
If I ghet voted in teh future, my poliotical plan is too has a CSM congress and a constotution. Congress to give powar to change constotution. The Eve constotution is a player mandate to what Devs are alowed to change.
If soemthing is unconstotution then Devs must consutl the congress.
Constotution gives raodmap to Eve liek in box and portect Devs and players from bad change.
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Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Recruitment
-KB- |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.04.18 19:12:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Chribba
Until things actually start to happen CSM is just a PR-stunt. I hope to be proven way wrong though.
TBH I don't want players to have any 'say' in the game. Way *way* too many problems with massive voting blocks from 0.0 alliances, carebears in NPC corps, ISK farmers etc.
Plus people willing to sell voting blocks for ISK.  |
Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.18 19:32:00 -
[37]
Originally by: NeoTheo
So yher, thats why 90% of them have 10 page docuements explaining what they think is wrong with the game rather than just manifestos explaining how they plan to communicate with CCP.
:/
I dont want someone to tell me what they think is wrong with the game, i want someone to tell me how they intend to gather our data and disscusions and provide feedback to us.
/Theo.
I disagree, I want to know what they think, I want to know where they stand and what they have done... the more I know about a candidate the better choice I can make when I vote...
Everyone has a Bias, in learning about a candidate you must filter the information via the bias of the informer... learn the bias of the candidate and you can filter his/her message and see the truth in the words... then make your informed vote.
If you like PvP and see issues in the PvP aspects of the game wouldn't you rather have a CSM member speaking for you that has a working knowledge of PvP at least and perhaps first hand knowledge of the issue at hand or would you want a player that had never fired on anything beyond some Sec .8 belt rat?
As the Candidates answer these posts, with long answers and short, we learn more about them... Perhaps you will find the Candidate with all that PvP back ground is not the best person to represent your views and sees your all but game breaking issue as a desired featureà better to learn that before you vote then when you find out the issue they brought to CCP for you is being fixed in a way that will make it worseà at least in your eyes.
When it comes to the CSM and CCP, yes, it's a PR stunt... but if at the end of the first term it has been decided by the players (public) that the CSM is worthless, that will be the PR that is heard... if the player (public) see it as having been a force to help improve the game, then the PR for CCP will be good, thus, CCP has a reason to make the CSM work.
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Arblade D'Angry
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Posted - 2008.04.18 19:55:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Arblade D''Angry on 18/04/2008 19:56:38
I have played Eve off and on since day one (actually beta) when there was less than 4000 players on the server at any one time. The game has survived in no small part because not every complaint goes answered. The developers had a vision for the and they have stuck to it. I have seen 100's of post about getting ganked in low sec and now empire, how mining sucks in empire and how this ship is overpowered or that. Eve is a PVP game. Empire is the necessary nice side of the game, but everything ultimately supports PVP the focus of the game.
The CSMs are to advise CCP only. I'm sure some good ideas will come out of it but I also trust that CCP will not change it's focus. I have seen allot of games try and be everything to every player, and in the end the game fails. It is simple really If you are a PVP game and then cater to the carebears taking away the advantages of 0.0 space the PvP players leave the game. It would be the opposite but PvP is the focus of the game. They didn't grow to where they are now coddling carebears, why would they do that now? I think if we see anything from the CSM's it will be tweaks to the economy, maybe some new ship types, some balance issues maybe an expansion of the story lines.
Some things to consider, very few people in EVE even post to these boards. The majority have no problem with the game. The usual complaints have never changed just the players stating them. Eve is not for everyone! There are some places where work can be done but at the end of the day the spirit of the game remains the same.
My only issue is that I can not play they way I would like because of college and work, and Jita....
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MongWen
Farmer Killers
United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.04.18 19:58:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
I can see how a NDA could cause a problem with presenting the formal meetings to the EVE public. But the meeting could be televised/broadcasted on a dely to allow for censoring or they could be presented after a time for editing.
I do pose this question though. If the CSM is a community representitive and there is information that they are privy to then are we not also privy to that info since we are the community? Any reason that CCP could give to counter a CSM argument or idea is something that the community should be allowed to hear. Or will the CSM committee become a secret keeping buffer between CCP and the EVE communite?
Slade
It might have something to do with ideas from CCP that they might want to keep to them self for the time being, and they may need to ask the CSM what we think about it. That may have something to do with the NDA, or something that CCP is planning to do and tells the CSM about it so that they can prep for it when it happens.
with not knowing on what terms the NDA falls under it is hard to say, but I suspect that a live feed can be hard to do, seeing that no one can know how long the discussions or talks about it can last it is hard to say.
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Vote MongWen For The CMS. [Campaign Site]
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach
Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.04.18 20:08:00 -
[40]
Originally by: MongWen
It might have something to do with ideas from CCP that they might want to keep to them self for the time being, and they may need to ask the CSM what we think about it. That may have something to do with the NDA, or something that CCP is planning to do and tells the CSM about it so that they can prep for it when it happens.
with not knowing on what terms the NDA falls under it is hard to say, but I suspect that a live feed can be hard to do, seeing that no one can know how long the discussions or talks about it can last it is hard to say.
The "live" part of my initial post was thrown in last second. I never really thought that it would be feasible, but thought it went with the flow so I put it in. The presence of the NDA pretty much ices the live idea. But having a recording (video or voice), in whatever edited fashion CCP chooses, is somewhat necessary. Otherwise we then are putting faith in the CSM's to accurately, unbiased, and in a timely fashion report all this info on their own.
Slade
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MongWen
Farmer Killers
United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.04.18 20:52:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
The "live" part of my initial post was thrown in last second. I never really thought that it would be feasible, but thought it went with the flow so I put it in. The presence of the NDA pretty much ices the live idea. But having a recording (video or voice), in whatever edited fashion CCP chooses, is somewhat necessary. Otherwise we then are putting faith in the CSM's to accurately, unbiased, and in a timely fashion report all this info on their own.
Slade
Yeah, but like i did say i am for it. but i can not say if CCP will allow it in what ever form or at all. but time will tell. 
My hope is that the CSM can be as open as possible without brakeing the NDA.
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Vote MongWen For The CMS. [Campaign Site]
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TheVad
Amarr
Metalworks
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Posted - 2008.04.19 02:21:00 -
[42]
The whole point of the CSM is to allow for innovation. CCP is prone to "group thinkö and thus the CSM will act as a brain storming/innovation group. CCP will take their ideas and determine if they will make a positive impact on the EVE universe and player experience. Think of the CSM as a think tank that produces recommendations.
And maybe just maybe if a few of them are good enough, they might get hired if itÆs something both people want.
TheVad
Project Manager & Chief Editor| www.eve-bank.net
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Trathen
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Posted - 2008.04.19 03:16:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Trathen on 19/04/2008 03:17:38
CCP are Gods to EvE, not a government. The only thing democratized here is who people choose to go to Iceland to speak with them. If they cannot come up with good, convincing ideas, it doesn't matter what the players think because they are quite aware that the common "OMG MAKE IT EZMODE" cries will make the game worse. I hope.
At any rate, the goal seems to be more PR than game design so let's not be too disappointed when CSM does nothing except let us know clearly what CCP plans to do.
Relevant Poster
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NeoTheo
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2008.04.25 18:25:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: NeoTheo
not sure this is the place for it, i need to leave work now, so ill try to reply later tonight.
thanks for taking the time to reply - once ive got home form work ill try to put something together that makes more sense than my above dribble ;) And oh, to you... its Neo, or just Th |