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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 14 post(s) |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1287
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Posted - 2012.03.01 02:01:00 -
[151] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
No but your defense of them is very transparent and I am sorry that your "boss" is going to look at the take and say something like "Hey, it's a little light this week. You holdin' out on me?"
Defense of what? Let me spell it slow so everyone can catch up. For what I care, botters, macroers, cheaters can all die today. Though I am against first strike perma ban (notice the FOCUS of the statemtent), because there's no 100% accuracy of detection. I am also against the fact that in EvE if you were wrongly accused of cheating you have NOTHING to defend yourself with. In a game centered on griefing, spying and meta gaming, it should just be natural to be given tools to prove your own innocence. If someone gets accused of a crime IRL he can defend himself, he's given tools to produce reliable proof to convince a judge of his innocence instead.
Yeah I can understand your concerns but if the report bot button was as good as a "get rid of enemy" button as you fear, they would not have to wait so long to attack botting. Much of the delay comes from making sure that a bot is indeed a bot.
This is funny to me because stats alone on an account would be indication enough, but it appears that the 0.0 ratter who is on half the day doing nothing but killing rats still gets benefit of the doubt. Some people are neckbearded enough to just sit around and do that all day.
Nobody around here will accept "some people might be wronged so don't do anything" arguments. Botting is bad enough that people are willing to accept the risk of an error from time to time. This game is not run like real life where giving your neighbor the power to rat you out to the cops on anything they can make up means it's garunteed to happen. (you are probably safer in the game from this kind of false reporting than such shenanigans in RL).
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
271
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Posted - 2012.03.01 02:20:00 -
[152] - Quote
You're Mum wrote:would also be intresting to see how many of those bots that were banned were as a result of people pushing the report a bot butan.
not that i think we should be policing a game that we pay money to play when CCP must have better ways of working out who is a bot and sorting it out themselves.... i still dont think this is anything more than PR for them to be able to stand up at fanfest and say "arn't we great!"
Im hoping that i will be proven wrong... but it happened last year.
Last year what we said was that the very system you're seeing in action here today was going to be in action in perpetuity, with a lot more intelligence being involved in the long run. You're not seeing anything different today.
I said specifically that this would be a slow burn and that there would be gaps and some games involved up front. I agree that from your perspective this could be taken that way, but I'll also point out that I've never promised anything other than results which would at times appear sporadic.
In my blog I hope to go into more details regarding the timing but believe me please that Fanfest wasn't a factor whatsoever. Hopefully I can flesh it out better tomorrow or the next day and get something satisfactory published for you. :)
:edit: One thing I'd also like to note is that we didn't make an announcement. The community carried that on its own and while there's some things that need to be cleared up regarding motivation this is exactly what I'd like to see. I shouldn't be convincing you guys that we're effective, it should be apparent and that's the only real measure of success I can care about from a player perspective. |
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FilterDecay
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2
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Posted - 2012.03.01 02:31:00 -
[153] - Quote
You guys should of done the ban AT fanfest in front of a huge crowd.
And now we would like to ban all these botter accounts with a push of this large shiny red button.
To the gasps and horrors of 1 in 10 in the crowd. HA!
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
271
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Posted - 2012.03.01 02:33:00 -
[154] - Quote
FilterDecay wrote:You guys should of done the ban AT fanfest in front of a huge crowd.
And now we would like to ban all these botter accounts with a push of this large shiny red button.
To the gasps and horrors of 1 in 10 in the crowd. HA!
That was unironically something I tried to do last year when we turned things on the first time but the mechanics were a butt. |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
206
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Posted - 2012.03.01 02:43:00 -
[155] - Quote
KrakizBad wrote:Hey CCP I know MD is the bastard orphan child of the forum, but our brave Jita traders noticed a sudden death in many of the .01 ISK warriors. Mind popping your head over and giving us a shout? Heh, that's good news. Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Schmacos tryne
Norsk Testosteron
20
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Posted - 2012.03.01 02:52:00 -
[156] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Angel Lust wrote:Let me guess..... Only highsec booters taken ? Edit: A dead boot is a good boot tho.... We do not nor have we every discriminated based on location. Any insinuation otherwise is simply false.
yet... |
Schmacos tryne
Norsk Testosteron
20
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Posted - 2012.03.01 02:56:00 -
[157] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:So it's looking like not only bot accounts, but other accounts of those who own the bot accounts. This is great "nuking from orbit" and I support this whole-heartedly.
Three huzzahs for CCP.
It's always worked this way. We're doing a few new things this time but we always hit everything.
It's a good thing then that learning skills got removed so the effective time to get a new bot-alt up and running is fast enough to keep the roubles pouring in. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
206
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Posted - 2012.03.01 02:59:00 -
[158] - Quote
Schmacos tryne wrote:It's a good thing then that learning skills got removed so the effective time to get a new bot-alt up and running is fast enough to keep the roubles pouring in. Lets bring learning skills back, then.
it's to stop bots. Clearly anyone who doesn't want learning skills back is a botter. Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
53
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Posted - 2012.03.01 03:09:00 -
[159] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Lets bring learning skills back, then.
[
Lets not!
They're dead and buried, let the learning skills set R.I.P. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
206
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Posted - 2012.03.01 03:23:00 -
[160] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote:They're dead and buried, let the learning skills set R.I.P.
Schmacos tryne wrote:It's a good thing then that learning skills got removed so the effective time to get a new bot-alt up and running is fast enough to keep the roubles pouring in. What other unlikely candidates can we bring up to stop botting. Lets think about the Jita double your isk bots, for one. Those don't need any skills.
Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
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Xantor Bludberry
25
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Posted - 2012.03.01 03:33:00 -
[161] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Last year what we said was that the very system you're seeing in action here today was going to be in action in perpetuity, with a lot more intelligence being involved in the long run. You're not seeing anything different today.
I said specifically that this would be a slow burn and that there would be gaps and some games involved up front. I agree that from your perspective this could be taken that way, but I'll also point out that I've never promised anything other than results which would at times appear sporadic.
In my blog I hope to go into more details regarding the timing but believe me please that Fanfest wasn't a factor whatsoever. Hopefully I can flesh it out better tomorrow or the next day and get something satisfactory published for you. :)
:edit: One thing I'd also like to note is that we didn't make an announcement. The community carried that on its own and while there's some things that need to be cleared up regarding motivation this is exactly what I'd like to see. I shouldn't be convincing you guys that we're effective, it should be apparent and that's the only real measure of success I can care about from a player perspective. I am sure that a female character from one of my test accounts want from you baby! This is the most exciting news in recent times. Ban them, burn them, delete the hell out of these parasites! Too often I read about the fact that people believe that the CCP is interested in bots and RMT. Prove that this is not so!
Another question: When will the DEV BLOG? |
Endeavour Starfleet
682
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Posted - 2012.03.01 05:42:00 -
[162] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:So it's looking like not only bot accounts, but other accounts of those who own the bot accounts. This is great "nuking from orbit" and I support this whole-heartedly.
Three huzzahs for CCP.
It's always worked this way. We're doing a few new things this time but we always hit everything.
I hope soon you can start improving your tools and data collection enough to start doing some epic damage in the form of nuking supercaps built with botted minerals.
If you have evidence that someone knowingly has put a bunch of bot minerals in their sub and supercap production nuke every frakking thing involved. Prepare for the emo rage on the forums and let your GMs confirm botting was involved so we can point and laugh. If the botters and their masters leave EVE. It will be to the benefit of us all when the PLEX lowers and better prices for industry.
With a bunch of subs and caps and even entire POSes and outposts removed because of botting I suspect a majority of the botting will be alot less effective in the future. |
Jarnis McPieksu
361
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Posted - 2012.03.01 06:09:00 -
[163] - Quote
TLDR: You do not joke about committing a suicide in your petition to GMs (for example, when they ban you for botting). Doing so will trigger a fairly standard response - a report to the local police with IP address and subscriber info (if available), to check if the guy is not joking.
This has happened before on various MMOs and many times over. Every single time it has resulted in police officers at the door. Unless you feel like explaining to the police about your "funny" "joke", don't do it. Customer support people everywhere will thank you. It must be a massive hassle to track down local law enforcement contacts in a hurry and try to convince them to send someone over - because that's what the poor support guy, by standard procedure, has to do. Otherwise if the "joker" actually isn't joking, there would be a massive drama bomb how the game caused the suicide and the support didn't intervene when they could have. CCP (or any other MMO publisher) can't take that risk.
Oh, and saying so won't get you unbanned if that's your idea with the "joke". |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1077
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Posted - 2012.03.01 06:26:00 -
[164] - Quote
Very much looking forward to that Dev Blog.
Thanks to you and your team. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Mukuro Gravedigger
Republic University Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2012.03.01 07:45:00 -
[165] - Quote
Good news like this thread might just prompt me to blow the old space dust off my mothballed Hulk... |
You're Mum
1st. Pariah Malefactor corp.
3
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Posted - 2012.03.01 08:00:00 -
[166] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:TLDR: You do not joke about committing a suicide in your petition to GMs (for example, when they ban you for botting). Doing so will trigger a fairly standard response - a report to the local police with IP address and subscriber info (if available), to check if the guy is not joking. This has happened before on various MMOs and many times over. Every single time it has resulted in police officers at the door. Unless you feel like explaining to the police about your "funny" "joke", don't do it. Customer support people everywhere will thank you. It must be a massive hassle to track down local law enforcement contacts in a hurry and try to convince them to send someone over - because that's what the poor support guy, by standard procedure, has to do. Otherwise if the "joker" actually isn't joking, there would be a massive drama bomb how the game caused the suicide and the support didn't intervene when they could have. CCP (or any other MMO publisher) can't take that risk. Oh, and saying so won't get you unbanned if that's your idea with the "joke".
yeah i saw that new site.... and lawl'd hard.
Cant believe that proven botters think they have a leg to stand on when it comes to petitions, |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
346
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Posted - 2012.03.01 08:10:00 -
[167] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Nobody around here will accept "some people might be wronged so don't do anything" arguments. Botting is bad enough that people are willing to accept the risk of an error from time to time. This game is not run like real life where giving your neighbor the power to rat you out to the cops on anything they can make up means it's garunteed to happen. (you are probably safer in the game from this kind of false reporting than such shenanigans in RL).
Nobody around here would take my post as "some people might be wronged so don't do anything" arguments, except you.
I just want the players to have the *instruments* to eventually prove they were innocent in case they are banned wrong. CCP HAVE to do anything vs cheaters, but players should then be able to do *something* in case they were picked by mistake.
Now reread this sentence and look how different it reads compared to your belief.
People with high visibility are naturally exposed to all sorts of vendettas and competition. If you are a 3rd party service or similar, you WILL deal with fiercely opposing factions and then you WILL be subject to "emergent meta gaming".
Getting in position of being an auditor / collateral holder / 3rd party service (and others) is not the same as levelling a new Retriever alt. It takes years and years. This is why I don't like the complete inability to defend. Whatever happens just because one day or week or month I decided to do some missions / ratting and even mining (!) will forever destroy my main activities (in the signature in case it's not evident enough). Guess what happens if I'd even get 10 days ban (or whatever is the minimum) and I had to contract a Supercarrier in my possession back to a loanee during those 10 days? People would cry scam, "he cashed out", whatever and I'd be thrown in the mud. Just because I did PvE sometimes earlier.
What to do to PROVE that someone gamed the system against me? There's nothing available at all.
Edit: practical example that happened in the past: a guy had to give collateral for an IPO (read: he wanted to start a BPO copy corp and asked Market Discussion investors for some billions). I was chosen as collateral holder. After some months they guy contacted me in terror, as one of those who borrowed him money was banned for RMT. Now what happens? That the game has ZERO mechanics to defend him (or me). To CCP it would just look like the other guy laundered RMT money. And in turn with that money the IPO investee bought the BPOs I held as collateral. How would I prove I don't matter at all with those two, in case CCP decided a chain investigation before I returned the BPOs? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Ptraci
StoneWall Metals Productions Bloodbound.
366
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Posted - 2012.03.01 11:09:00 -
[168] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: but believe me please that Fanfest wasn't a factor whatsoever.
So it was the CSM elections then. Interesting!
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Henry Haphorn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
203
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Posted - 2012.03.01 13:36:00 -
[169] - Quote
I loved reading the tears on the Fail Heap Challenge. Now I have to go look into my list of people I scouted earlier to see if they went poof because of Mr. Ban Hammer. Welcome to Eve Online. Don't expect people to be nice to you. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2248
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 14:45:00 -
[170] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:Weaselior wrote:EVE does fingerprint your computer you idiots non-******** botters use a launcher that spoofs the fingerprint (and monitors the fingerprint code for any changes), hides injected dlls from the client and prevents crashes from getting reported (doing this via the official client setting might be a red flag, who kows?).
A lot of people (especially software developers) disable all automatic crash reporting due to NDAs and such. "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
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Sverige Pahis
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
787
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Posted - 2012.03.01 14:53:00 -
[171] - Quote
Henry Haphorn wrote:I loved reading the tears on the Fail Heap Challenge. Now I have to go look into my list of people I scouted earlier to see if they went poof because of Mr. Ban Hammer.
EDIT:
I also noticed that CCP never made an announcement about this. It was merely just us forum dwellers who noticed the bot forums being flooded with bountiful, yet tasty, tears. If this really was a pre-fanfest PR stunt by CCP, then this is a very odd way of announcing the bans. In fact, this would have been swept under the rug had it not been for us forum dwellers who thankfully spy the bot forums for intel on how to catch them.
Anyways, I always wondered... if there was ever a mathematical formula for calculating the quality of the tears on the bot forums, what would it look like?
y = number of unique accounts banned
x = number of botters
as dy/dx approaches infinity tears --> GêP |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
1042
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Posted - 2012.03.01 15:20:00 -
[172] - Quote
Xantor Bludberry wrote:Another question: When will the DEV BLOG? Soon!
CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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Rex Augustus
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
12
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Posted - 2012.03.01 15:39:00 -
[173] - Quote
CCP Teases us, TEASES US!!!
Damn you...
Good job, Darius and crew. Keep killing botters erryday. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
281
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Posted - 2012.03.01 15:42:00 -
[174] - Quote
Andski wrote:Vera Algaert wrote:Weaselior wrote:EVE does fingerprint your computer you idiots non-******** botters use a launcher that spoofs the fingerprint (and monitors the fingerprint code for any changes), hides injected dlls from the client and prevents crashes from getting reported (doing this via the official client setting might be a red flag, who kows?). A lot of people (especially software developers) disable all automatic crash reporting due to NDAs and such.
That's not what he's referring to and there's not a single NDA in the world that allows you to violate the EULA. If you can't play by the rules you agreed to then don't.
:edit: And unless what he's referring to is within the client (It's not that I'm aware of) then it is a EULA violation and you will be permanently banned for it the first time. |
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sakurako
The Circle G00DFELLAS
3
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Posted - 2012.03.01 15:47:00 -
[175] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Xantor Bludberry wrote:Another question: When will the DEV BLOG? Soon! soon or soontm |
arcca jeth
Dark Alliance Dark Empire Alliance
78
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Posted - 2012.03.01 16:15:00 -
[176] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Nobody around here will accept "some people might be wronged so don't do anything" arguments. Botting is bad enough that people are willing to accept the risk of an error from time to time. This game is not run like real life where giving your neighbor the power to rat you out to the cops on anything they can make up means it's garunteed to happen. (you are probably safer in the game from this kind of false reporting than such shenanigans in RL).
Nobody around here would take my post as "some people might be wronged so don't do anything" arguments, except you. I just want the players to have the *instruments* to eventually prove they were innocent in case they are banned wrong. CCP HAVE to do anything vs cheaters, but players should then be able to do *something* in case they were picked by mistake. Now reread this sentence and look how different it reads compared to your belief. People with high visibility are naturally exposed to all sorts of vendettas and competition. If you are a 3rd party service or similar, you WILL deal with fiercely opposing factions and then you WILL be subject to "emergent meta gaming". Getting in position of being an auditor / collateral holder / 3rd party service (and others) is not the same as levelling a new Retriever alt. It takes years and years. This is why I don't like the complete inability to defend. Whatever happens just because one day or week or month I decided to do some missions / ratting and even mining (!) will forever destroy my main activities (in the signature in case it's not evident enough). Guess what happens if I'd even get 10 days ban (or whatever is the minimum) and I had to contract a Supercarrier in my possession back to a loanee during those 10 days? People would cry scam, "he cashed out", whatever and I'd be thrown in the mud. Just because I did PvE sometimes earlier. What to do to PROVE that someone gamed the system against me? There's nothing available at all. Edit: practical example that happened in the past: a guy had to give collateral for an IPO (read: he wanted to start a BPO copy corp and asked Market Discussion investors for some billions). I was chosen as collateral holder. After some months they guy contacted me in terror, as one of those who borrowed him money was banned for RMT. Now what happens? That the game has ZERO mechanics to defend him (or me). To CCP it would just look like the other guy laundered RMT money. And in turn with that money the IPO investee bought the BPOs I held as collateral. How would I prove I don't matter at all with those two, in case CCP decided a chain investigation before I returned the BPOs?
emails? chat logs? to name a few. you have chosen a rare line of work that can get you into sticky situations if you do not know who you are dealing with. so in your case, your tools to protect yourself is plain and simple, DOCUMENTATION. CCP doesn't need to provide you with squat. Don't be lazy and be a PRO. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
576
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 16:24:00 -
[177] - Quote
sakurako wrote:CCP Phantom wrote:Xantor Bludberry wrote:Another question: When will the DEV BLOG? Soon! soon or soontm
Soon-TFU!
/me refreshes the devblog page too often... This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
509
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Posted - 2012.03.01 16:33:00 -
[178] - Quote
One of the better comments I've seen:
"Listening to some goons crying on comms saying it was only supposed to be the drone regions and high sec bots to be banned is glorious."
If true, then the null bots did in fact get hit, without favoritism. I am running for the CSM. Take a look at my ideas. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
281
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Posted - 2012.03.01 16:36:00 -
[179] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:
If true, then the null bots did in fact get hit, without favoritism.
I had no idea people even thought that was a thing. Talk about pushing the ol' tinfoil envelope. |
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
510
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Posted - 2012.03.01 16:45:00 -
[180] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:
If true, then the null bots did in fact get hit, without favoritism.
I had no idea people even thought that was a thing. Talk about pushing the ol' tinfoil envelope.
Oh yes. Sreegs, as you were once part of the goons they obviously thought you would show your loyalty to them. Other players have made similar comments, about how goon bots will get a free ride.
I guess they forgot to notice who signs your check, or consider that you actually take pride in doing a good job. I am running for the CSM. Take a look at my ideas. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
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