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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.20 18:35:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Goumindong
The key difference is the automation.
Does it require the player to be actively playing Eve, or does it sound a warning even if they are ingame but asleep/forum whoring/afk?
It just being a warning is not really the issue. As you say, if people make it do other stuff it may become a macro, and theus a EULA infringment .. but you have also commented on it being undetectable.
So what exactly is your position? Cheating is wrong, or cheating is wrong if you can get caught?
BACON highlights why client logging on TQ needs to be stopped or be encryted. I am sure that as a responsible member of the community, in favour of fair play, you would agree? I mean, someone hoping to join teh CSM wouldn't do it on a platform of supporting cheats, would they?
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 18:37:00 -
[92]
Originally by: sov68n
Originally by: Goumindong So by BACON being public then the people not using it are doing it by their own choice or by ignorance of their existence, and therefore are denying themselves the advantage, meaning they are the issue in this matter, and not the programs themselves?
My statement was in reference to EFT, my apologies for not clarifying that.
But imo, BACON does break gank pvp, since even people who stupidly afk in unsecure areas are now safe, and that is not how EVE should play out, under any circumstances.
If they are AFK how do they get back to their computer to safe and cloak?
No, the issue has always been with the log out timers from rat and mining aggression, and the inability of cloaking ships to be proved down.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
sov68n
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 18:44:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Goumindong If they are AFK how do they get back to their computer to safe and cloak?
No, the issue has always been with the log out timers from rat and mining aggression, and the inability of cloaking ships to be proved down.
Your logic makes me cry. All of your arguments are invalid or stupid, just shut up.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 18:45:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Goumindong on 20/04/2008 18:45:54
Originally by: Avon
Does it require the player to be actively playing Eve, or does it sound a warning even if they are ingame but asleep/forum whoring/afk?
It would always sound a warning. Does that make running eve in a window, applying the always on top property to it and then making sure i can see the local count in a window when i am forum whoring a "cheat"?
Its not really different. And hell, if it induces people to afk more then it actually increases the chance of them not getting the info and/or not being able to come back to their machine in time.
Quote:
As you say, if people make it do other stuff it may become a macro, and theus a EULA infringment .. but you have also commented on it being undetectable.
The reading the log server part is undetectable. The "making it into a macro" is detectable[or at least, should be]
Quote:
So what exactly is your position? Cheating is wrong, or cheating is wrong if you can get caught?
EULA says its not cheating. Oh, and when did you stop beating your wife?
Quote:
BACON highlights why client logging on TQ needs to be stopped or be encryted. I am sure that as a responsible member of the community, in favour of fair play, you would agree?
If everyone has access to it, its "fair". Such that isn't the question, the question is what it does to the game.
The answer to that is "not much", and all the problems that might be exacerbated by such a change are all easily fixed by changes that need to be implemented anyway[Specifically, log out timers for rat aggression, and the ability to scan down cloaked ships]
Originally by: sov68n
Your logic makes me cry. All of your arguments are invalid or stupid, just shut up.
Then i am sure you can tell me why my arguments are invalid or stupid[which really makes me wonder how one would be stupid and valid or invalid and not stupid].
I would love to hear it.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
sov68n
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 18:51:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Goumindong It would always sound a warning. Does that make running eve in a window, applying the always on top property to it and then making sure i can see the local count in a window when i am forum whoring a "cheat"?
No, because you are actively looking at the local window while you are forum whoring. With BACON, you don't even have to have EVE on top, and that's quite a difference.
Originally by: Goumindong Then i am sure you can tell me why my arguments are invalid or stupid[which really makes me wonder how one would be stupid and valid or invalid and not stupid].
I would love to hear it.
Here's a stupid one:
Quote: EULA says its not cheating. Oh, and when did you stop beating your wife?
Why it is stupid is pretty self explanatory.
and here's an invalid one:
Quote: The answer to that is "not much", and all the problems that might be exacerbated by such a change are all easily fixed by changes that need to be implemented anyway[Specifically, log out timers for rat aggression, and the ability to scan down cloaked ships]
BACON has a large effect on gameplay, read any of the posts (besides your own) in this thread and you will realize that.
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:01:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Goumindong Nor does BACON warp you out of a belt and cloak you. It simply makes it easier to do so. While EFT makes it easier to develop strong PvP/PvE builds. Do you see the similarities?
Smokescreen detected.
The difference is theory and practice, and you aint foolin no-one.
Bandures > Tommy, you like a cowboy harry ) |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:33:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Goumindong Nor does BACON warp you out of a belt and cloak you. It simply makes it easier to do so. While EFT makes it easier to develop strong PvP/PvE builds. Do you see the similarities?
Smokescreen detected.
The difference is theory and practice, and you aint foolin no-one.
Are you saying that when you get a good fit in EFT you scrap it for the fit that you haven't put into EFT to check its relative performance?
Originally by: sov68n
Why it is stupid is pretty self explanatory.
So you are saying that me using a rhetorical technique to show why someones argument against me is stupid[he is begging the question, asking a question in such a way that any valid answer to it admits wrong on the part of the answerer]?
I suppose its smart to then walk into an invalid argument and admit wrong that is not?
Quote:
BACON has a large effect on gameplay, read any of the posts (besides your own) in this thread and you will realize that.
Why is it invalid? Its invalid because other people don't think it? Wouldn't that be a fallacious argument[argument ad populous]?[Note: This is a rhetorical question, it is in fact a fallacious argument]
No, i will still maintain that the net effects of such a change will be small. Heck, we can probably see this just by looking at the amount of people who die when AFK in belts compared to the amount of people that die when not.
Quote:
No, because you are actively looking at the local window while you are forum whoring. With BACON, you don't even have to have EVE on top, and that's quite a difference.
Not really, you need about the same action required to continue activity. You need to move stuff into cans, move to belts, target new rats etc. So you would have to be either safed and cloaked or in a POS or in a station to really change the amount of time you have away from the keyboard.
If you are working as a scout in a low population system or any system with all blues you can do the same thing, and let your natural visual workings[to be drawn to movement] do the rest of the work.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Corwain
Gallente DIE WITH HONOUR
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:33:00 -
[98]
I can't even believe the anti-logic you're spouting Goumindong, but I'm glad it came up. I was completely ready to vote for you because I agree with your position in the nano thread, but now...
BACON is cheating, I'm not gonna rehash the arguments as to why that have been posted all thread, but if you can't see it you're broken. -- Distortion| Distortion 2 Preview |
Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:42:00 -
[99]
While I can actually somewhat follow Guoms logic this time, I do not agree with it. Avon pretty much summed up my position on this too. There is a lot more to issues like this than just cold hard facts and technicalities. It has to do with spirit, and this tool goes totally against the spirit of EVE as I see it.
You want ME for the CSM!
There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:43:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Corwain I can't even believe the anti-logic you're spouting Goumindong, but I'm glad it came up. I was completely ready to vote for you because I agree with your position in the nano thread, but now...
BACON is cheating, I'm not gonna rehash the arguments as to why that have been posted all thread, but if you can't see it you're broken.
There have been no strong arguments to why it is cheating. There may be adverse things it will do to the game, but these are already adverse things in the game that need to be fixed, and if they are fixed in reasonable manners all objections to these types of programs essentially goes away
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
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Corwain
Gallente DIE WITH HONOUR
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:55:00 -
[101]
Well I've gotta agree with you that the root of the problem is that local makes it too easy to run at the first sign of trouble. As someone why prefers to fly Force Recons and Covops cause of the stealth factor I've gotta admit--there's REALLY no such thing as stealth in EVE. Just inattention, which is why I hate the idea of this program. The one person I can actually catch before they SS and cloak because they're watching TV or surfing the net while they're ratting will now have a little voice come on saying "Hey, someone's here, SS and cloak".
But I still don't think that makes the program any less cheating. -- Distortion| Distortion 2 Preview |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:57:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Corwain Well I've gotta agree with you that the root of the problem is that local makes it too easy to run at the first sign of trouble. As someone why prefers to fly Force Recons and Covops cause of the stealth factor I've gotta admit--there's REALLY no such thing as stealth in EVE. Just inattention, which is why I hate the idea of this program. The one person I can actually catch before they SS and cloak because they're watching TV or surfing the net while they're ratting will now have a little voice come on saying "Hey, someone's here, SS and cloak".
But I still don't think that makes the program any less cheating.
The root of the problem is not local. The root of the problem is that once "hey, someones there" the "log off" or "safe and cloak" is too easy and offers no pvp recourse.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Isotobe
Caldari Laughing Leprechauns Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:58:00 -
[103]
For the first time ever since I started playing eve, I would consider joining BOB just to wipe your flawed logic and ill considered total tripe out of this once great game.
You obviously know nothing more about eve than how to mine and be a carebear, you sir, are the epimity of why eve is broken, and continuing to slide down a path of decline.
I hope CCP come to their senses and act on all game changing software affecting eve once and for all.
Someone infamous once said "we can make it, the question is, should we"
wise words.
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Louis DelaBlanche
Cosmic Odyssey Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:12:00 -
[104]
BACON not cheating per say. What it is doing is aggrevating an identified but as yet unreplaceable flawed game mechanic that is using local chat channel for intel rather than socialising (its intended main purpose).
Coloured icons was one step down this direction, but people still have to pay attention to local to see who is there (& before icons alot of ppl just used their addressbook to differentiate between friendlies & hostiles/neutrals). Adding an audio layer to this removes the need for vigilence to the point that you can do other things on ur PC/in the room & still have ample warning of potential incoming hostiles.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:50:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 20/04/2008 20:50:32 FFS, with programs like BACON and BEETRACKER, the game is moving down a direction that is plain absurd. Do people even want to play this game for pvp anymore or just isk farm?
CCP, if you guys are reading this, now this is the most lazy way to fix this stuff.
1. Now is the time to make every rat of all sizes in every belt scramble with at least 2 pts per rat. (New isk farmer generation fits 1 wcs minimum)
2. Auto-agression just for being in a bubble. Stops CTRL-Qing people who jump in the gate
3. NPC giving a small agression timer of around 200 seconds, thus preventing CTRL-Qers, and not really effectig those who genuinly crash.
Then programs like BACON/BEETRACKER and Logoffski macros wont matter at all.
If you want the isk from a spawn, you got to take risk. You got to defend your space to stop raiders getting in, rather than just using CTRL-Q as a get out of jail free card.
--
Billion Isk Mission |
Rexthor Hammerfists
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.04.20 21:22:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 20/04/2008 21:24:02
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 20/04/2008 20:50:32 FFS, with programs like BACON and BEETRACKER, the game is moving down a direction that is plain absurd. Do people even want to play this game for pvp anymore or just isk farm?
CCP, if you guys are reading this, now this is the most lazy way to fix this stuff.
1. Now is the time to make every rat of all sizes in every belt scramble with at least 2 pts per rat. (New isk farmer generation fits 1 wcs minimum)
2. Auto-agression just for being in a bubble. Stops CTRL-Qing people who jump in the gate
3. NPC giving a small agression timer of around 200 seconds, thus preventing CTRL-Qers, and not really effectig those who genuinly crash.
Then programs like BACON/BEETRACKER and Logoffski macros wont matter at all.
If you want the isk from a spawn, you got to take risk. You got to defend your space to stop raiders getting in, rather than just using CTRL-Q as a get out of jail free card.
its not only that belt ratting is in fact alot more secure then missions in lowsec with this, but you can take this idea so far it makes me sick, how about i put some alts in the systems around pr-, the system bob stages out from, now everytime more then 5 bob leave pr- my little programm tells me through which system they left and how big that gang is, predicting where they might go isnt rocketscience so you either form a gang to counter them 5 minutes after they left their homesystem and/or you warn your industrials that in 30minutes a hostile gang will arrive in your space.
Its ridicolous. -
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sov68n
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 21:23:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists how about i put some alts in the systems around pr-, the system bob stages out from, now everytime more then 5 bob leave pr- my little programm tells me through which system they left and how big that gang is, calculating where they might go isnt rocketscience so you either form a gang to counter them 5 minutes after they left their homesystem, or you warn your industrial that in 30minutes a hostile gang will be around.
This is the biggest problem with BACON.
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Eronysis
Caldari Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 21:30:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Eronysis on 20/04/2008 21:31:36 Regarding the above goon comment...Though it is rude to quote myself. I repeat.
Originally by: Eronysis Edited by: Eronysis on 20/04/2008 07:33:04
Originally by: Eronysis
Originally by: motomysz I agree. Anti-BACON candidate gets my vote.
Ironic
If case you have as much trouble following links as reading a description or actually using a product before judging it. I give you another preexisting tool... Beetracker
What is being passed off here is large alliances keeping the advantage of having such tools private and quasi secret. BACON brings them to the masses, in an OPEN SOURCE format. Tools of this nature are being used against thousands of players BY people posting BAN BACON messages in this very thread and in others. Period.
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Cailais
Amarr VITOC Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2008.04.20 21:32:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Corwain Well I've gotta agree with you that the root of the problem is that local makes it too easy to run at the first sign of trouble. As someone why prefers to fly Force Recons and Covops cause of the stealth factor I've gotta admit--there's REALLY no such thing as stealth in EVE. Just inattention, which is why I hate the idea of this program. The one person I can actually catch before they SS and cloak because they're watching TV or surfing the net while they're ratting will now have a little voice come on saying "Hey, someone's here, SS and cloak".
But I still don't think that makes the program any less cheating.
The root of the problem is not local. The root of the problem is that once "hey, someones there" the "log off" or "safe and cloak" is too easy and offers no pvp recourse.
Its a double edged argument actually.
The attacker strives to remain hidden in order to catch his prey.
The defender strives to see the attacker in order to escape.
The solution to this circular argument must lie in how the player recieves information on the "who", "what" and "where" of other players in a system and how quickly that occurs.
This goes to the core of the 'intel' framework of local, the overview, and the scanner. What is needed is a singular UI that displays elements of this information but within limitations: i.e a set of falible senses which have their own unique limitations.
C.
New Scanner Idea!
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Josh Causto
Gallente Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 21:45:00 -
[110]
The big problem that I find with it is that it is a third party program that gives a major advantage over players who do not use it. To me, anything like that should be considered a cheat and not be allowed in EVE. And don't try to class this with EFT or EVEmon because those things don't really help you when you are actually doing something in EVE PAYING ATTENTION.
Originally by: Speed Devil
Originally by: ReePeR McAllem Everytime you fit anything other than a laser on our ships, babies die.
and when ya fit lasers on your ships nothing dies
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Corwain
Gallente DIE WITH HONOUR
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Posted - 2008.04.20 21:59:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Cailais Its a double edged argument actually.
The attacker strives to remain hidden in order to catch his prey.
The defender strives to see the attacker in order to escape.
No, the defender doesn't need to see the attacker at all, just know that he is in system.
The attacker must not only know the defender is there, but exactly where he is.
I've actually hunted people in 0.0 with a force recon, and it's to the point where actually opening up your directional scanner and using it is useless as everyone's already warping to their safes as soon as they see you in local. Not even a blob, a single neutral pilot jumps in and 50 people warp to their POSes, SS+cloak, and outposts then start smacking you in local.
Anymore I just jump into a system and warp to a random belt, cause you're not stealthy at all. You have no time to scan people down. THERE IS NO STEALTH IN EVE. -- Distortion| Distortion 2 Preview |
Hunlight Faithus
Gladiators of Rage DeStInY.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:04:00 -
[112]
la vista got all 3 my votes :) ------------------------------------------------------
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:05:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Goumindong Nor does BACON warp you out of a belt and cloak you. It simply makes it easier to do so. While EFT makes it easier to develop strong PvP/PvE builds. Do you see the similarities?
Smokescreen detected.
The difference is theory and practice, and you aint foolin no-one.
Are you saying that when you get a good fit in EFT you scrap it for the fit that you haven't put into EFT to check its relative performance?
I am saying that EFT only provides me with theoretical information about optimum ship fittings. It does not advise me about practical situations (quite literally) on the fly.
The difference is quite obvious and you are obviously derailing this thread with your nonsense.
Respect -10.
Bandures > Tommy, you like a cowboy harry ) |
MongWen
Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:13:00 -
[114]
EFT is totally irrelevant since it does not require anything but an API key, and does not need any of the current game files, or temp/logs/cache files for that matter. And EFT does not give you any in game advantages, though it gives you a platform that you can test setups on a theoretical level.
BACON does need the logserver file in order to work, though my reserve is that the same log file contains your user name, and that can be exploited by others to gain that info (an example can be that they modify the open source and release it as a ônewö version on sites like eve-files.
And the fact that it gives a unfair advantage for in game, and as base for people to create macro like behaviour that can do more harm than good, and I hope that CCP disallows this so called ôtoolö since itÆs basically a platform for people to exploit.
------------------------- Vote MongWen For The CMS. [Campaign Site]
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Ashlugothel
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:19:00 -
[115]
I like the concept of BACON.
Not only for 0.0 but moreso for crowded hi-sec systems. With 100+ people in system you just can't scan local enough to keep up with who's in system and if any war targets or hostiles have entered the system.
In 0.0 the few seconds not looking at local because when I'm concentrating on killing a rat, looking at the security channel or whatever can make a difference between safety and waking up in my next clone. An audio warning makes good use of an under-used information channel in the game. |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:22:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Goumindong on 20/04/2008 23:22:19
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
I am saying that EFT only provides me with theoretical information about optimum ship fittings. It does not advise me about practical situations (quite literally) on the fly.
The difference is quite obvious and you are obviously derailing this thread with your nonsense.
Respect -10.
It may not advise you, but it does help you in those situations. You should note that the program discussed does not advise you either, it simply makes an auditory cue which you can ignore if you wish.
Also, then, you are against third party chat programs and team speak?
Originally by: Cailais
Its a double edged argument actually.
The attacker strives to remain hidden in order to catch his prey.
The defender strives to see the attacker in order to escape.
The solution to this circular argument must lie in how the player recieves information on the "who", "what" and "where" of other players in a system and how quickly that occurs.
This goes to the core of the 'intel' framework of local, the overview, and the scanner. What is needed is a singular UI that displays elements of this information but within limitations: i.e a set of falible senses which have their own unique limitations.
C.
Unfortunately that does not work due to the mechanics of cloaking and the requirements of the defending side. And solutions that use such a mechanism will either bring too much information to one side, or not enough in most situations.
See: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=729912&page=2#38 and the resulting conversation for a more through explanation.
That the information is separated is actually a benefit to it in these situations.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Masu'di
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:23:00 -
[117]
this kind of situation is only going to get worse as time goes on, i imagine CCP will ultimately end up meeting it half way like they did with the ISK selling.
im actually quite glad this application has been made, hopefully it will get the ball rolling a bit quicker with sorting out local which has been muttered about for the last 3 years.
i'd like to see local removed, but replaced with something. perhaps a way to relay on information from the scanner to your alliance mates, and build up a combined picture. whatever it is, i do think that audio is underused and should be part of it.
for example, an audio sound played when a new ship arrives on grid, would be useful and sensible, i'm sure our ships onboard computers would be capable of it, and be able to handle other sensory mediums other than light.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:24:00 -
[118]
Originally by: MongWen
BACON does need the logserver file in order to work, though my reserve is that the same log file contains your user name, and that can be exploited by others to gain that info (an example can be that they modify the open source and release it as a ônewö version on sites like eve-files.
All of these programs can be compromised in order to do malicious things. Heck, you could just be downloading a virus with nothing else.
This is no different from any piece of software you download from any source.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
MongWen
Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:40:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Goumindong
All of these programs can be compromised in order to do malicious things. Heck, you could just be downloading a virus with nothing else.
This is no different from any piece of software you download from any source.
That is true, but then again I believe that is a whole different topic, since this is about BACON not any other program you might download.
------------------------- Vote MongWen For The CMS. [Campaign Site]
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:43:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Goumindong
All of these programs can be compromised in order to do malicious things. Heck, you could just be downloading a virus with nothing else.
This is no different from any piece of software you download from any source.
Again, please check the source. We do nothing, and retain nothing other than what we tell you we're doing.
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