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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
96
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Posted - 2012.02.29 22:15:00 -
[61] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:An IQ 80, 13 old WoW player is meant to understand that "Grand Slayer Of The Ages" is something cooler than "Bronze sword".
Why an IQ120 EvE player is not meant to be able to understand "Cold Jet Arc Thruster"?
Because in the future we deal with things like empirical values such as quantity and quality.
Simply put, the IQ of people crafting in an era when people slop their **** and **** out the window for lack of a magic garbage disposal is figured to be somewhat lower than that of a people crafting at a technology level where they can literally live forever and teleport their consciousness anywhere in the galaxy where they have staged a suitable body.
We have words now that say what things can do. Why not use them? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
JitaPriceChecker2
State War Academy Caldari State
23
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Posted - 2012.02.29 22:29:00 -
[62] - Quote
I hate dumbing down the game trend, but this change is actually for better. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
339
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Posted - 2012.02.29 22:39:00 -
[63] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: Because in the future we deal with things like empirical values such as quantity and quality.
So, how's more useful, immediate and informative: calling something "limited, experimental, improved, enhanced" or Meta 1, 2, 3, 4?
At this point we may as well just call stuff with their meta number and be done with it.
To a non native English player like me, there's no qualitative difference at all between improved, enhanced, extended, augmented etc.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
594
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Posted - 2012.02.29 22:51:00 -
[64] - Quote
Didn't worry so much about the missile name changes. They are easier now.
The change of the Assault missile launcher is very annoying because the new name will not show up if "launcher" is searched.
The prop mods... meh. Annoying, but not inhibitory. |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
1142
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Posted - 2012.02.29 22:58:00 -
[65] - Quote
I haven't had to buy new missiles since the names changed. I still have a stockpile of somewhere around 9.8 billion missiles sitting in Jita waiting to be used. Probably still won't buy new ones for some time.
THAT is how important the names are to me. I probably am not the average person when it comes to ammo purchases though. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!! |
Nephilius
Grey Legionaires
322
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Posted - 2012.02.29 23:00:00 -
[66] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:Dumbing EVE down for the new peeps is CCPs FOTM.
Obviously it isn't dumbed down enough or we wouldn't have posts like the OPs. To stand before a man at an inquisition, knowing that he will rejoice when we die, knowing that he will commit us to the stake and its horrors without a moment's hesitation or remorse if we do not satisfy him, is not an experience much less cruel because our inquisitor does not whip us or rack us or shout at us. |
Kid Chaos
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
16
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Posted - 2012.02.29 23:07:00 -
[67] - Quote
I know that you're afraid of change, but better system is better.
Hold my hand. It will be okay. |
Rei Seiji
Production N Destruction INC. The Last Chancers.
15
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Posted - 2012.02.29 23:20:00 -
[68] - Quote
OP hates having simple names for items? Misses the old days of showing info to figure out how what the hell the difference between one implant and another is? Change your language setting!
Why care about knowing what ammunition is being shoved into your turrets when you can hope that -ü-+-â-ç-¦-¦-+-ï-¦ -Ç-â-ü-ü-¦-+-¦ -ü-+-+-¦-¦ will be just the thing you need! Since really, things can't be fun until you make them needlessly complicated.
To increase your fun value, try squirting vinegar into your eyes every five minutes. Feel the burning sting of entertainment! |
Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
980
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Posted - 2012.02.29 23:27:00 -
[69] - Quote
Rei Seiji wrote:OP hates having simple names for items? Misses the old days of showing info to figure out how what the hell the difference between one implant and another is? Change your language setting!
How about for example: - item mouse over tips if held some key down - right click menu: "show similar in compare tool" which will show all implants affecting to same stat. - compare tool preset: "shield implants" which shows all shield implants. Compare tool icon to neocom.
Rei Seiji wrote: Why care about knowing what ammunition is being shoved into your turrets when you can hope that -ü-+-â-ç-¦-¦-+-ï-¦ -Ç-â-ü-ü-¦-+-¦ -ü-+-+-¦-¦ will be just the thing you need! Since really, things can't be fun until you make them needlessly complicated.
How about for example: - item mouse over tips if held some key down - right click menu: "show similar in compare tool", which will show all same sized projectile ammo in compare tool. - compare tool preset: "projectile ammo" which shows all projectile ammo and their damage types. Compare tool icon to neocom.
Rei Seiji wrote: To increase your fun value, try squirting vinegar into your eyes every five minutes. Feel the burning sting of entertainment!
It is not item names fault that game lacks tools. Renaming stuff doesn't solve the actual problem. It just creates more work.
Get |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5107
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Posted - 2012.02.29 23:32:00 -
[70] - Quote
Grey Stormshadow wrote:It is not item names fault that game lacks tools. Renaming stuff doesn't solve the actual problem. It just creates more work. No, what creates more work is the 3rd-party developers' bad coding practices, and guess what? That additional work is their own fault for not using proper identifiers to begin with.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
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Ai Shun
327
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Posted - 2012.03.01 00:08:00 -
[71] - Quote
Grey Stormshadow wrote:It also dumps down the game a great deal.
Now that was a visual I could do without. I can spin a Minmatar ship if I wanted to see something covered in poop.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
982
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Posted - 2012.03.01 00:14:00 -
[72] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Grey Stormshadow wrote:It is not item names fault that game lacks tools. Renaming stuff doesn't solve the actual problem. It just creates more work. No, what creates more work is the 3rd-party developers' bad coding practices, and guess what? That additional work is their own fault for not using proper identifiers to begin with. Judging from few past posts... I find it quite surprising that you are so well committed to support this shallow renaming campaign. To be honest was expecting much more deeper vision, judgement and suggestion from your part. Usually you come with much better arguments. Bit disappointed now.
I may be direct, rude and write plenty of crap about stuff I don't know anything about. However I am also willing to change my mind if the facts and general information about the topic point to another direction. Unfortunately so far very few things what I've seen people writing truly justify naming changes over the other options.
namely: giving access to additional tools, making meta levels visible in icons or/and in various other places, improving compare tool, improving market, adding tool tips, improving search tool so that you can search for example "kinetic, missile, light" or "railgun, large, meta4"
Instead of making the game more interesting and giving longer life cycle because of longer learning curve, the chosen solution is to go the easy way and nerf the names which have been in game since day 1. It is pretty much the same solution than taking the english dictionary and writing it over because it sounds like a good idea.
Many posts support name changes because it is difficult to tell meta level. Many posts support name changes because the actual name doesn't really even tell what the item does. I dare to say that after the naming changes people still go to info window to look what the meta level is. They still get confused with the items. They may be able to tell little better what some implants do, but they still go to info window.
Most things what people expect to get from naming change can really only be provided by improving the game, not by changing the names. Names are not the source why items are hard to learn. I bet that new player who goes to market would have much clearer vision about item groups if they were sorted and labelled by meta level. New names will help that fellow very little. Optional tool tips would be really handy. They should be enabled by default but old timers should be able to hide them under some short cut key. So on and so on...
Finally I just want to add, that there have been new players who have addressed the fact, that looting plenty of randomly named crap is much more entertaining and rewarding than looting some same item with one alternative index word.
The 3rd party software is just part of issue and it creates loads of work - however it is not the actual heart of the issue. Hopefully you understand it now.
Get |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5110
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Posted - 2012.03.01 00:35:00 -
[73] - Quote
Grey Stormshadow wrote:Judging from few past posts... Why do you think it's being done GÇ£over other optionsGÇ¥?
The name change is helpful in its own right. Adding better search and sorting is helpful in its own right. Adding one is good. Adding both is better. Just because they do one doesn't meant can't or that they shouldn't do both. In fact, these changes allow them to do that much more easily since they're encoding more things directly into the name. As much as automated tools are helpful, improving things for the wetware processing is also a very good change.
What they're doing is not giving the game a GÇ£shorter learning curveGÇ¥ GÇö it's giving the game a learning curve rather than a sheer cliff face. Like you say, people will GÇ£stillGÇ£ go into the info page to see what things doGǪ but I'd argue that no, people won't. People will look into the info page to see the details, and they will do it because they haven't learned yet, but now that they are presented with an actual learning curve, they canGǪ you knowGǪ learn and not GÇ£stillGÇ¥ have to do that. Instead, they can just glance at even a somewhat unfamiliar item and divine some of its use and filter that for either a closer look or completely irrelevant to their search. Just such a simple thing as telling meta ABs and meta MWDs apart is now trivial because the modules are called what they are. Bam. Instant reduction in the number of modules you need to show info on by half, because you were never interested in the ABs to begin with.
My issue is that you're seemingly trying to paint this as an either-or- kind of case. That seems like a rather silly false dichotomy to me. Want to get better tools? Excellent. I'm right behind you. Want to use the possibility and usefulness of better tools as an argument not to also improve the naming conventions of items? Sod off. Want to argue that some lore and flavour is lost? Well, sureGǪ but there's ways to do maintain that anyway and it doesn't really mean the idea of schematic consistency in the names is a bad idea.
The name change isn't done over other options. It's being done first GÇö a completely different thing GÇö because it's such a simple and easily implemented solution. The need to improve the UI is still there, and instead of waiting until such a change can be scheduled, budgeted, and implemented, this is a first step towards improving things. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Rixiu
SnowNiggs.
104
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Posted - 2012.03.01 00:40:00 -
[74] - Quote
Better names are a good thing. The proposed names are horrible and lacks fantasy and thus these names are bad. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
437
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Posted - 2012.03.01 00:46:00 -
[75] - Quote
itt: nubs who think knowing the difference between n-type and radiometric hardener mods = true knowledge of eve-online |
Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
982
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 00:53:00 -
[76] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Grey Stormshadow wrote:Judging from few past posts... Why do you think it's being done GÇ£over other optionsGÇ¥? My issue is that you're seemingly trying to paint this as an either-or- kind of case. That seems like a rather silly false dichotomy to me. Want to get better tools? Excellent. I'm right behind you. Want to use the possibility and usefulness of better tools as an argument not to also improve the naming conventions of items? Sod off. Want to argue that some lore and flavour is lost? Well, sureGǪ but there's ways to do maintain that anyway and it doesn't really mean the idea of schematic consistency in the names is a bad idea. The name change isn't done over other options. It's being done first GÇö a completely different thing GÇö because it's such a simple and easily implemented solution. The need to improve the UI is still there, and instead of waiting until such a change can be scheduled, budgeted, and implemented, this is a first step towards improving things.
Yep... I think this is the part where we disagree the most.
I believe that all the "other options" should be done first and after those entire naming campaign should be reviewed. I honestly believe that very few names really need changing. The ones which may do come from random item groups and mostly from implant section. I do agree that certain items like mwd and ab had issues getting mixed, but those too could have been solved with 1 word change or something. Change in those went too far. Missiles had absolutely no need for any changes.
With meta levels on icons/market groups, meta level tab in hangar enabled by default and optional tool tips for items would have solved so much more and caused much less unhappiness.
But yea - I see your viewpoint and thank about good answer. Sometimes people just can't agree about everything :)
Get |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5110
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Posted - 2012.03.01 01:18:00 -
[77] - Quote
Grey Stormshadow wrote:CCP's current schedule seems to run around "what is cheap, fast and little thing"-first. I don't like the approach and the mentality. Specially after I saw how they left the neocom project like nothing happened. Fair enough. I can understand that concern, but I still don't think that one have to exclude the other and that, seeing as how small a change this is, it actually takes away from any changes in the future.
If you're worried about their commitment to fixing those kind of GÇ£deep processesGÇ¥ in the UI, then that concern will exist separate to, and regardless of, any kind of name simplification. Like I said, I don't think it's an either-or situation. Yes, if it were, I would probably side with core UI improvements over superficial name changes as well, but I don't think it is so I feel zero need to advocate one over the other (and definitely not one at the cost of the other).
Yes, they have a litte-cheap-things thing going on right now. That's not bad, imo, because there are so many little cheap things that have been left unpolished for closer to a decade now. The kind of changes you're advocating is basically what I envision as an entire EVE expansion GÇö a complete revamp, from the bottom up, of the entire GÇ£itemGÇ¥ UI: hangars, assets, market, contracts (yes, there are still things that need to be done), and every kind of item manipulation (*cough*industry*cough*) in-between. That's a huge update, and a lot of it needs to be done at once to maintain the consistency and not just generate an even larger backlog of little things to fix. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Cailais
Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance
214
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Posted - 2012.03.01 01:37:00 -
[78] - Quote
I'm going to miss the old nomenclature.
A future of..
Limited 200mm Plates Limited Kinetic Armour Hardner Limited 220mm Cannon Limited Damage Control Limited 150mm Rail Gun etc etc etc
Just sounds so dull and well...limited.
Standardisation might sound great but what you tend to end up with is something that's just that: standard. Not exceptional, enigmatic, fascinating, perplexing, emotive, thrilling or exceptional.
Its just standard.
C. |
Brock Nelson
378
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Posted - 2012.03.01 01:41:00 -
[79] - Quote
Ok I don't see why we need to rename Meta to something else if CCP's goal is to bring in newer player that have trouble understanding what Meta 1 means. Signature removed, CCP Phantom |
Tarsus Zateki
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
68
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Posted - 2012.03.01 02:01:00 -
[80] - Quote
Just going to copy/paste my response from the other post about this idiocy.
"Are you really such a mental invalid that you can't handle a name change. Does CCP need to implement a phonetic reader in the game that will slowly spell out each word for you? Perhaps a voice analyzer so you can slowly slur the words, "Ay aww want some miscles and stuffs..." and the game can just figure it out for you." |
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
988
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Posted - 2012.03.01 03:57:00 -
[81] - Quote
Thanks for the compliment mr goonie. Could you tell more details?
Get |
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
54
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Posted - 2012.03.01 08:53:00 -
[82] - Quote
Grey Stormshadow wrote:People who really think that naming change helps noobs more than it hurts vets is a tool. No offence.
It also dumps down the game a great deal.
Name changing hurts nobody in the long run as you will adapt to the new names.
As for you mentioning 3rd party software in your opening post, well that's not CCPs problem. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
2910
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Posted - 2012.03.01 10:16:00 -
[83] - Quote
Forum rules, section 12 - of particular relevance sentence three in that paragraph ^^
---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off. |
Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
989
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Posted - 2012.03.01 10:18:00 -
[84] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote: Name changing hurts nobody in the long run as you will adapt to the new names.
Is that a fact? I am pretty hurt and I'm not even 3rd party developer for general public what comes to stuff what is related to item names. However I do have plenty of crap done/updated for personal use - like many many others.
Go check the official thread in information portal and count how many "non hurt" souls you find complaining there. I can give you a hint. That is more than 0, more than just me and enough for mr door to come to the thread to notify that CCP is going to discuss about solutions again. Perhaps your fact was not such good fact after all.
And no - I don't adapt to stupid things very well - you should be aware of that already by looking all my love to the website and all my fan post about CCP's new brilliant "improved" neocom.
Sasha Azala wrote: As for you mentioning 3rd party software in your opening post, well that's not CCPs problem.
That is correct. That why it is easy for them to ignore entire issue and push forward with wise decision to p1ss people off rather than even trying to use other more effective methods as primary solution. As a company this should not be CCP's primary goal while desperately trying to redecorate the product.
They are doing this for the noobs and bulldozing everything in their way to gain results which in the end have very limited effect to the targeted group. I would be much more ok with this if all the other stuff had been tried 1st and debate about some justified cautious name changes had taken place. This current campaign is just another shallow attempt to show commitment to refocusing without actually committing any real resources into it.
This is how I see this - truth or not.
Get |
Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
989
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 10:33:00 -
[85] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:Forum rules, section 12 - of particular relevance sentence three in that paragraph ^^ Yea... as being "Posts of this nature are not conducive to community spirit and are unwelcome. " it probably would be wise to lock this thread and see if the problem goes away.
If "Petitions or "/signed" posts are a version of bumping and likewise are not permitted." surely shooting the statue will soon be bannable action too (to make the problem go away even better :).
But 10/10 points for doing the forum moderators work :)
Get |
Sverige Pahis
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
785
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Posted - 2012.03.01 10:40:00 -
[86] - Quote
The only part I don't really "get" is why upgraded is < limited |
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
88
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Posted - 2012.03.01 10:40:00 -
[87] - Quote
Yes, mainly because I don't want to download the 38 patches it will take to rename ALL the modules. |
Jazzmyn
The Ghost Division
11
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Posted - 2012.03.01 11:52:00 -
[88] - Quote
/not signed.
Just because it isnt convenient for veteran players is not enough reason to stop renaming process. For example implant names are currently total mess, they are not informative at all and based on their names its impossible to say what bonuses they provide.
Naming change is step to right direction, remove extra complexity from EVE where it serves no purpose. In the long run, more logical names make ship fitting faster when u dont have to memorize all the akward names when buying stuff from the market.
Fight ! Fight ! Never surrender, never surrender ! |
Red Templar
Raging Ducks Goonswarm Federation
146
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Posted - 2012.03.01 12:58:00 -
[89] - Quote
i support name change.
Killing your brain with names that make no sense does nothing for the game immersion.
And as i see it they are not overly simplifying names, they are just bringing that old mess in line. For Love. For Peace. For Honor.
For None of the Above.
For Pony! |
Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
541
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Posted - 2012.03.01 14:00:00 -
[90] - Quote
Alistair Cononach wrote:I support CCP on this change.
I support this change and the way it is done (retaining the flavour of the old names)
Carry on CCP, carry on you magnificent bastard you!
- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |
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