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Cordran Li Gallente The Really Awesome Players Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.24 20:49:00 - [31] Edited by: Cordran Li on 24/04/2008 20:50:55 Originally by: abraheam Originally by: Cordran Li Awesome, more political slackers, just like in real life. Keeping up with politics is hard work IMO. It involves more then chest beating over your favored politicians(or in most cases parties) talking points...Contrary to what most people believe. I will do it in R/L, but not in a game. Depending on how much power the CSM canidates wield you have now added a featured that is "required" in this "sandbox" game of ours if you want your viewpoint to be presented. I like the system that is currently in use by every other MMO out there. THe Developers present an idea, and either allow feedback, or dont. Either way if the idea is implemented there is a need for adaptation in many cases. It keeps the gaming experience fresh IMO. I do not like ideas being put forth and either failing, or succeeding based on the popularity of the person presenting them. Short version: Calling people "political slackers" because they do not care for the idea of the CSM is quite narrow minded IMO. My apologies. This kind of thing upsets me in RL so it translated to the game momentarily. In my opinion this (the CSM) is one of the best ways that an MMO can evolve. The "iron fist" of the dev works in certain situations e.g. a single player game that needs to be patched but in the end people will play it and move on. In the MMO world the point is that people play for years and years. The game needs to be innovative in order to survive. I think the best thing a dev can do is have player input. It'll make the game last longer and keep it good. Even Blizzard listens to it's players some. But other smaller games, I think, need to do this or something like it at least. You can say that it won't capture what the entire player base wants (because the forums are only a small part of that), but I think that the CSM is a step in the right direction. In the end you don't "have" to care, it's your choice not to. But don't hate CCP because they're doing it.
Balen Organa Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.24 20:57:00 - [32] CSM is commendable but it sounds like a big PTA meeting. Not critical of it, I think its a good idea but kind of odd for a video game. But ok.
abraheam Dirty Denizens	Posted - 2008.04.24 21:58:00 - [33] Originally by: Cordran Li My apologies. This kind of thing upsets me in RL so it translated to the game momentarily. In my opinion this (the CSM) is one of the best ways that an MMO can evolve. The "iron fist" of the dev works in certain situations e.g. a single player game that needs to be patched but in the end people will play it and move on. In the MMO world the point is that people play for years and years. The game needs to be innovative in order to survive. I think the best thing a dev can do is have player input. It'll make the game last longer and keep it good. Even Blizzard listens to it's players some. But other smaller games, I think, need to do this or something like it at least. You can say that it won't capture what the entire player base wants (because the forums are only a small part of that), but I think that the CSM is a step in the right direction. In the end you don't "have" to care, it's your choice not to. But don't hate CCP because they're doing it. It isnt necessarily a bad idea, and I certainly dont hate CCP for bringing it forward. I just believe that with eves structure currently, politics already play a large part in the game play itself. This is just taking it to another level, therefor I do not believe it is innovative, it is just taking upping the anty. I think that the reason this hasnt been done in any other MMO, because the risk of failure( which is great) is not worth the meager rewards. CCP is requesting feed back from the community on certain issues already, they get 40 page threads within a day. So they wont get any increased feedback. The only thing it adds is a political vehicle that could alienate a large percentage of the playerbase.
Chinger Caldari Mentis Fidelis R-I-P	Posted - 2008.04.24 22:25:00 - [34] Well if you don't care, then don't vote.
Arum Erzoh Amarr Kreios Imperium	Posted - 2008.04.24 22:59:00 - [35] I am a candidate for the CSM. I think one of the things that would have been nice is for CCP to post a forum thread asking what types of questions/stances are important to people. From there, having all potential candidates fill out the form so that voters could read where candidates stand on issues important to the community of EVE. At least, that way everyone would be comparing apples to apples (and could hold the candidates feet to the fire should they flip-flop on their stances). ...just my two cents.
Voltain BEER Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.24 23:28:00 - [36] Edited by: Voltain on 24/04/2008 23:29:41 Ok, a few candidates have posted in this thread already, I have a question for you if you could see your way to humouring me. I mean no disrespect by what I'm going to say, I recognise that some of you are well thought of and make substantial contributions to the community already and I am a mere peon: You are actively putting yourselves forward into the public domain by running for the CSM, not content with just playing the game you are willing to spend even more of your time (it's yours, do with it as you wish) to work on development and community issues. Why? you're not being paid, you mostly do not work or have any experience in game development (I don't care how many you might have played) and from what I can make of the whole thing you will be part of a glorified discussion group representing the views and ideas from a possible minority of the player-base. Is this not taking meta gaming to a new level? Because you are willing to invest so much work, effort and time into this are you not completely the wrong people to be entrusted with such a role? Do you even feel it's healthy to be so involved in an internet spaceships game? After all, it's just a form of entertainment.
x racer Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.24 23:29:00 - [37] Ancient Gallente saying: "Anyone who wants the job probably is not worth voting for" I actually know a few of the candidates and could not agree more. The question is....who would do a good job thats not campaigning like a over the hill rockstar? Thinking 4tw x *But, but, but, DB Preacher told me there are* no goons!**
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.04.25 04:10:00 - [38] Originally by: Voltain The only candidate that I'll be inclined to vote for, or even read the manifesto of will be looking to do the following: Lie, shamelessly to get onto the CSM. Have no interest at all with any type of virtual political system. Blag their way out to Iceland. Drink all of CCPs beer. Flirt with the Dev's wives and girlfriends relentlessly. Steal their stationary. RULE the dancefloors. Make rude, bordering on the offensive suggestions for in-game material and admit to being turned on by the thought of virtual sexual encounters, use diagrams and home-made film to emphasise the point. Get deported back to their own country, no better than that, a third world country. The comedy option then, what goon candidate is this a covert endorsement of? Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Charney deGeoff Caldari New Tibet	Posted - 2008.04.25 05:00:00 - [39] Player councils are not really as rare as the recent CSM debate would like to make them. I know a fair amount of good old MUD's that used to have similar things. Player councils are generally used for one thing only: Filtering information When the game is young/small it's pretty usual that Devs and GMs speak directly to the players, take suggestions, make changes based on that input. Once your playerbase grows you'll end up with issues like trolling, game-rage etc, which reduces the signal/noise ratio and generally makes it harder for Devs to communicate directly (I think that can be seen here on EVE boards pretty clearly, see WoW boards for the absolute worst case scenario). Enter player councils. Pick some players to "represent the views of the community", hire some community managers (as they're called these days, generally they're forum moderators) and then your devs don't have to wade through hundreds or thousands of crap posts in the forums to get to the meat. Discussions (hopefully intelligent) can be arranged between the player councils and the devs without having to be afraid your devs will burn out because no matter what they say someone will flame them. So, in my very humble opinion, the CSMs are just "community filters" for the devs, and as such it doesn't really matter who you vote, and I think your "trip to Iceland to drink CCP's beer" is quite valid selection criteria. Also, I've never seen a player council that works, they usually all fail under their own silly seriousness. Expectations are always very high for this sort of thing (players always know better than the stupid devs who are ruining the game). However, since the CSM's actually don't have any powers at all, the best they can do is take some notes, enjoy Iceland and get thoroughly drunk. Anyway.. I guess that was just a very longwinded way of saying, I agree with the OP.
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.25 06:40:00 - [40] Edited by: Omber Zombie on 25/04/2008 06:40:48 Originally by: Voltain You are actively putting yourselves forward into the public domain by running for the CSM, not content with just playing the game you are willing to spend even more of your time (it's yours, do with it as you wish) to work on development and community issues. Why? Because CCP has decided that this is the direction the game is headed and I fear that if it isn't implemented properly, it could make the game less fun. I can spare the time, I love the game, I think I can help. Quote: you're not being paid, you mostly do not work or have any experience in game development (I don't care how many you might have played) and from what I can make of the whole thing you will be part of a glorified discussion group representing the views and ideas from a possible minority of the player-base. Is this not taking meta gaming to a new level? This game evolved from pure gameplay to meta-gameplay a long time ago. I can't remember who said it first, but the forums became an extension of the eve client and to paraphrase "some wars are won & lost without ever logging into the game". So no, I don't think it's taking meta-gaming to a new level, more just a distillation of the existing meta-gameplay that exists. Quote: Because you are willing to invest so much work, effort and time into this are you not completely the wrong people to be entrusted with such a role? Do you even feel it's healthy to be so involved in an internet spaceships game? People are capable of multi-tasking, I don't see why this is would make someone a 'wrong type' to be entrusted to such a role. Let me ask what type of person you think should be representing the playerbase? As for whether I feel it's healthy to be so involved with an internet spaceship game - it's a hobby. I would rather spend my time playing eve than watching TV or skateboarding. Unlike most MMO's, eve is far more relaxed and you are capable of doing other things while playing it. edit - spelling ---------------------- CSM 08 Blog \| 1st Campaign Vid

Voltain BEER Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.25 07:19:00 - [41] Originally by: Danton Marcellus Originally by: Voltain The only candidate that I'll be inclined to vote for, or even read the manifesto of will be looking to do the following: Lie, shamelessly to get onto the CSM. Have no interest at all with any type of virtual political system. Blag their way out to Iceland. Drink all of CCPs beer. Flirt with the Dev's wives and girlfriends relentlessly. Steal their stationary. RULE the dancefloors. Make rude, bordering on the offensive suggestions for in-game material and admit to being turned on by the thought of virtual sexual encounters, use diagrams and home-made film to emphasise the point. Get deported back to their own country, no better than that, a third world country. The comedy option then, what goon candidate is this a covert endorsement of? A goon is already suggesting this? I may vote yet.
Voltain BEER Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.25 07:33:00 - [42] Originally by: Omber Zombie People are capable of multi-tasking, I don't see why this is would make someone a 'wrong type' to be entrusted to such a role. Let me ask what type of person you think should be representing the playerbase? As for whether I feel it's healthy to be so involved with an internet spaceship game - it's a hobby. I would rather spend my time playing eve than watching TV or skateboarding. Unlike most MMO's, eve is far more relaxed and you are capable of doing other things while playing it. OZ, thanks for your response. I think, as a paying customer of the product and/or service CCP provides I am the only person with the right to represent my views. It's not government, it's not a democracy, itÆs a business. I'm told riding bikes is far cooler than skateboarding
Evita Achura Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.25 08:27:00 - [43] Originally by: Voltain ...I'm sure that all the candidates have everyoneÆs best intentions at heart, ... You DO know that goonswarm has like 3 candidates up for CSM right?
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.25 08:28:00 - [44] Originally by: Voltain OZ, thanks for your response. I think, as a paying customer of the product and/or service CCP provides I am the only person with the right to represent my views. It's not government, it's not a democracy, itÆs a business. I'm told riding bikes is far cooler than skateboarding Fair enough, hence my asking that if you were going to abstain, may as well vote for me No loss to you either way. As for the bike vs skateboard thing - here's a fun fact, I never learned how to ride a bike I'm also somewhat disturbed by grown men wearing skintight lycra... it's just not a good look imho. ---------------------- CSM 08 Blog \| 1st Campaign Vid
Voltain BEER Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.25 09:47:00 - [45] Originally by: Omber Zombie Fair enough, hence my asking that if you were going to abstain, may as well vote for me No loss to you either way. Ah, by not voting at all am I sending the message that I might not agree with the concept. If that's the case the vote isn't wasted. Anyway, I'm too lazy to read your manifesto. Originally by: Omber Zombie As for the bike vs skateboard thing - here's a fun fact, I never learned how to ride a bike I'm also somewhat disturbed by grown men wearing skintight lycra... it's just not a good look imho. Yes, it's disturbing that's the first image that enters your head when you think about bikes!
Arum Erzoh Amarr Kreios Imperium	Posted - 2008.04.25 14:49:00 - [46] Edited by: Arum Erzoh on 25/04/2008 14:51:01 Originally by: Voltain You are actively putting yourselves forward into the public domain by running for the CSM, not content with just playing the game you are willing to spend even more of your time (it's yours, do with it as you wish) to work on development and community issues. Why? Honestly, one of my largest interests is to ensure that the game I've come to love isn't impacted in such a manner as to change from what I enjoy into something that's "catering" to a minorities interest (or players interest, or corp's interest, or alliance's interest). Originally by: Voltain you mostly do not work or have any experience in game development Though I am not a developer, I work in an independent quality assurance laboratory who has worked on numerous MMO's. QA is often referred to as the process of holding developers feet to the fire and making them accountable for their failures (something that may prove a valuable skill when dealing with CCP). Originally by: Voltain Is this not taking meta gaming to a new level? Because you are willing to invest so much work, effort and time into this are you not completely the wrong people to be entrusted with such a role? Do you even feel it's healthy to be so involved in an internet spaceships game? You've a valid point, and to a degree I'll assume you'll be correct. In many ways this will be an element of the game within the game. Will it be dramatically impacting? Likely not, at least initially. Healthy to be so involved? It would depend on why you're involved. I've known players to organize "out of game" meetings, make YouTube videos, write game guides, make websites, create alliances, etc. Are they too involved? Can it be a slippery slope? Yes, but I wouldn't go so far as to generalize that the CSM, it's purpose or it's intent is anything more than an expansion that will add additional elements to the game that only a portion of it's player-base will be interested in. Originally by: Voltain After all, it's just a form of entertainment. Agreed, and though some find entertainment in different ways let us not forget this is just a game.
Squelch Rubra Libertas Militia R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.04.25 15:01:00 - [47] I think there should be a new forum for people who are bored at work to post in and read. That way I'll never have to read through a thread like this again (both pages dammit!). Oh and I agree with the OP
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.25 16:17:00 - [48] Originally by: Voltain Ah, by not voting at all am I sending the message that I might not agree with the concept. If that's the case the vote isn't wasted. Anyway, I'm too lazy to read your manifesto. nope, your just saying you don't agree with any of the candidates. The TL;DR version of my manifesto is - the CSM in it's current state is broken and unworkable, I want to fix it. Quote: Edit - having come across this I can see the obvious attraction, I may yet be "turned". now, imagine setting next to 100x that while waiting in traffic and you will understand my dislike for bikes ---------------------- CSM 08 Blog \| 1st Campaign Vid
Voltain BEER Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.25 16:18:00 - [49] Edited by: Voltain on 25/04/2008 16:18:37 Originally by: Squelch I think there should be a new forum for people who are bored at work to post in and read. That way I'll never have to read through a thread like this again (both pages dammit!). Oh and I agree with the OP Yeah, sorry about that, what can I say it's been a slow couple of days here. Plus I got banned from Yahoo! Answers for my obscene trolling
Arduron	Posted - 2008.04.25 16:47:00 - [50] Originally by: Voltain Edited by: Voltain on 24/04/2008 23:29:41 Ok, a few candidates have posted in this thread already, I have a question for you if you could see your way to humouring me. I mean no disrespect by what I'm going to say, I recognise that some of you are well thought of and make substantial contributions to the community already and I am a mere peon: You are actively putting yourselves forward into the public domain by running for the CSM, not content with just playing the game you are willing to spend even more of your time (it's yours, do with it as you wish) to work on development and community issues. Why? you're not being paid, you mostly do not work or have any experience in game development (I don't care how many you might have played) and from what I can make of the whole thing you will be part of a glorified discussion group representing the views and ideas from a possible minority of the player-base. Is this not taking meta gaming to a new level? Because you are willing to invest so much work, effort and time into this are you not completely the wrong people to be entrusted with such a role? Do you even feel it's healthy to be so involved in an internet spaceships game? After all, it's just a form of entertainment. That's a common misconception of MMOs in general. It is not "Just a game" because there are thousands (or tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands or whatever) real people involved. It is now a Community. As a Community, it needs to be nurtured or it will fail. Some people enjoy taking their time to add to a community. I am one of those people who actually gets some personal satisfaction out of contributing and helping. I do it in RL, and I do it in any other game/community I get involved in. (to varying degrees of course). Both my wife and I play Eve, and we enjoy it quite a bit. For something that we belong to regularly, being in a position to directly affect changes to the development and growth of the game that we enjoy so much is a big opportunity (even if said changes are only suggestions to the devs based on player feedback). I don't think it's a matter of people taking "a spaceship game" too seriously (but I can't speak for everyone, I'm sure there are at least one or two cases like that lol) ;) But it is more a case of people working together to try and build a community they already enjoy, into something they can enjoy more. That's my take on the whole thing. :)

Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.25 16:48:00 - [51] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 25/04/2008 16:50:43 Originally by: Voltain in a strictly advisory capacity. Thank god for that. I'd hate the idea of our CSM candidates actually doing anything else. Fact is, if you gave the players (particularly the forum populace) any rights to actually decide on changes, they'd turn the game into something utterly horrible. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Voltain BEER Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.25 17:24:00 - [52] Originally by: Arum Erzoh Agreed, and though some find entertainment in different ways let us not forget this is just a game. In my mind, this raises another question (yeah I know, bear with me). Lets say one of the candidates makes the cut and gets elected. It's everything he/she ever wanted, so much so they spend every waking moment thinking about EVE. Attending meetings, organising events, listening to players needs. He/She does this to such an extent that they get completely sucked into this at the detriment of their RL responsibilities. They ignore their spouse/SO, they forget to pick up the kid from school, they lose their job. They spiral into depression, debts build up, wife and kids leave, they start eating from the trash. Some may mock, I say it's possible one of the 14 take on more than they can cope with. They must however maintain their in-game persona. Do CCP have a duty of care for this individual? They're not an employee, but are being tasked with a role by the company. Who's to blame for this individuals position? Fake edit - did I really just type this b0ll0cks
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.25 17:38:00 - [53] Originally by: Voltain Do CCP have a duty of care for this individual? They're not an employee, but are being tasked with a role by the company. Who's to blame for this individuals position? No and himself to answer your questions. I mean, seriously, if you cannot control your gaming (or any other) habit and work out a virtual position (CSM) into his schedule, it's not anybody's fault but your own. Originally by: Voltain Fake edit - did I really just type this b0ll0cks Yes, you did. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Arum Erzoh Amarr Kreios Imperium	Posted - 2008.04.25 19:26:00 - [54] Originally by: Voltain Originally by: Arum Erzoh Agreed, and though some find entertainment in different ways let us not forget this is just a game. In my mind, this raises another question (yeah I know, bear with me). Lets say one of the candidates makes the cut and gets elected. It's everything he/she ever wanted, so much so they spend every waking moment thinking about EVE. Attending meetings, organising events, listening to players needs. He/She does this to such an extent that they get completely sucked into this at the detriment of their RL responsibilities. They ignore their spouse/SO, they forget to pick up the kid from school, they lose their job. They spiral into depression, debts build up, wife and kids leave, they start eating from the trash. Some may mock, I say it's possible one of the 14 take on more than they can cope with. They must however maintain their in-game persona. Do CCP have a duty of care for this individual? They're not an employee, but are being tasked with a role by the company. Who's to blame for this individuals position? Fake edit - did I really just type this b0ll0cks Um.... It is possible that being a member of the CSM may cause you to chew off your own arm, test nailguns on small animals, shave your first love's name into your back hair, and pester William Shatner to teach you Esperanto. Some people will act responsible, some people will just want to have fun, some people will take it WAY too serious, and some people will be idiots... just like the real world. I do not take kindly to stupidity. I deal with it every day in my professional role, yet I have no problems kicking people in the head when they deserve it.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.04.25 19:59:00 - [55] Spaek for yuorself. A voet in CSM is impotant because you are puting your vioce into palyer govarment ... --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Go veot! Put vioce for silient majoriety. LOVE PVP, HATE grief
Kruel Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.04.25 20:28:00 - [56] Meh, what's the point of all this CSM rubbish anyway... can't we just have an evil dictator? And wasn't CCP already filling this position? ----------------------------------- You're not a pirate unless your -10

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