Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 .. 14 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:08:00 -
[1]
This is not about nano-gangs, or speed fits, or snake implants. This is about the Microwarpdrive (MWD).
Frig Base Speeds Crucifier - 306 m/s Executioner - 488 m/s Inquisitor - 338 m/s Punisher - 313 m/s Crusader - 569 m/s Malediction - 569 m/s
Frig Speed with AB II Crucifier - 689 m/s Executioner - 1310 m/s Inquisitor - 765 m/s Punisher - 723 m/s Crusader - 1498 m/s Malediction - 1461 m/s
Battleships with MWD II Armageddon - 1163 m/s Typhoon - 1477 m/s Tempest - 1385 m/s Megathron - 1213 m/s Raven - 1070 m/s
So, what do these numbers say? The numbers say that as soon as a battleship equips a Microwarpdrive frigate size ships will be utterly unable to catch the battleships without fitting a propulsion mod themselves. Even worse, most frigate-size ships will even be unable to catch most MWD-battleships if they just fit an Afterburner (AB).
In other words: if you want to catch a ship with MWD, you need an MWD yourself. The speed difference between no propulsion module or an AB and a MWD is so great that even the fastest ship class (frigate) can not catch the slowest ship class (battleships) unless they fit an MWD too.
Since in many cases you need to 'catch' or at least keep a hostile within scrambler range, this means that as soon as a hostile starts fitting an MWD, you need one too. Without one, you cannot try to dictate range, close with the hostile or outmaneuver him. This means that the more people start to use MWD's, the more neccessary it becomes to fit an MWD yourself.
Once fitting a module becomes a neccesity, its not really a choice anymore. And the point of having fitting slots is making choices. MWD's remove choice from EVE, MWD's remove tactical options from EVE. The speed boost of an MWD is too great in comparison with ship's base speeds and the benefit of an Afterburner.
I'm all in favor of having nano-ships as an option in EVE. I don't mind some ships outrunning missiles and being generally untrackable. I don't mind people in pimped out ships with snake implants achieving crazy speeds. I do think MWD cause to great of a speed difference between those who fit them, and those who don't. The absolute speed has perhaps gotten a bit high with rigs, but its the speed difference that is most important.
The enormous speed boost from a MWD also neccessitates the enormous speed reduction brought about by webbers. If the speed boost would be less, the webber strength could be less as well, and give small ships that are webbed a chance. Together with the 20km max scrambler range, the MWD is the main cause that there is nearly no mid-range combat.
I'm not proposing a solution in my post. I feel we need to analyze and understand the problem well before we can come up with the solution. And I think the aspect of speed differences is more important than absolute speed attainable, and the greatest cause of this is the MWD. This issue hasn't been adressed enough to my liking.
All the Nano-fits only emphasize the MWD's imbalance. The MWD is the key factor, not the speed rigs, many different speed mods etc. Take away the MWD, and they are all suddenly reasonable modules.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:17:00 -
[2]
What about reducing the speed bonuses of cruiser and battleship-sized MWDs? |
Leto Aramaus
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:20:00 -
[3]
Merdaneth thats an excellent point and well stated argument. I really wasn't totally aware of the imbalance that is present, but I completely agree with you. And I also agree that a very good solution would be to lower the % speed boost of Battleship class MWDs, however cruisers I think should keep the speed abilities they have now. |
Kravick Drasari
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:21:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Kravick Drasari on 25/04/2008 22:23:54 The MWD has draw backs. It lowers your capacitor size and thus lowers capacitor recharge time. It also massively increases your signature radius making you easier to hit. Admittedly though, most of the time you're going so fast that the increased sig radius doesn't matter.
Also, every ship can equip a MWD. I realize you're suggesting that ABs should be used more often but you can't use a MWD in deadspace. Perhaps there should be more deadspace in game? |
Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:22:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Tarminic What about reducing the speed bonuses of cruiser and battleship-sized MWDs?
*Hands Tarminic an Asbestos suit and concrete mittens* |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:24:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Tarminic on 25/04/2008 22:25:13
Originally by: Kravick Drasari The MWD has draw backs. It lowers your capacitor size and thus lowers capacitor recharge time.
Also, every ship can equip a MWD. I realize you're suggesting that ABs should be used more often but you can't use a MWD in deadspace. Perhaps there should be more deadspace in game?
What he's getting at is that regardless of whether you're flying a frigate, cruiser, or battleship, it's impossible to outrun any sub-capital ship with a MWD unless you have one yourself. If both ships have one, it's disadvantages don't really matter because they're applied to both ships.
Originally by: Alski
Originally by: Tarminic What about reducing the speed bonuses of cruiser and battleship-sized MWDs?
*Hands Tarminic an Asbestos suit and concrete mittens*
I did it so the OP doesn't have to get flamed for his outrageous suggestion. |
Kravick Drasari
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:27:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Kravick Drasari The MWD has draw backs. It lowers your capacitor size and thus lowers capacitor recharge time.
Also, every ship can equip a MWD. I realize you're suggesting that ABs should be used more often but you can't use a MWD in deadspace. Perhaps there should be more deadspace in game?
What he's getting at is that regardless of whether you're flying a frigate, cruiser, or battleship, it's impossible to outrun any sub-capital ship with a MWD unless you have one yourself. If both ships have one, it's disadvantages don't really matter because they're applied to both ships.
Ah yes, I see. I didn't consider that. --- My cat Putter approves of this post. Be a Ninja! You know you want too: http://www.animecubed.com/billy/?Kravick |
ceyriot
Induseng Enterprises R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:27:00 -
[8]
Edited by: ceyriot on 25/04/2008 22:28:50
Originally by: Merdaneth Frig Base Speeds Crucifier - 306 m/s Executioner - 488 m/s Inquisitor - 338 m/s Punisher - 313 m/s Crusader - 569 m/s Malediction - 569 m/s
Frig Speed with AB II Crucifier - 689 m/s Executioner - 1310 m/s Inquisitor - 765 m/s Punisher - 723 m/s Crusader - 1498 m/s Malediction - 1461 m/s
Battleships with MWD II Armageddon - 1163 m/s Typhoon - 1477 m/s Tempest - 1385 m/s Megathron - 1213 m/s Raven - 1070 m/s
So, what do these numbers say? The numbers say that as soon as a battleship equips a Microwarpdrive frigate size ships will be utterly unable to catch the battleships without fitting a propulsion mod themselves. Even worse, most frigate-size ships will even be unable to catch most MWD-battleships if they just fit an Afterburner (AB).
Crucifier - 306 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 1866 m/s Executioner - 488 m/s - 1mn MWD II- 3839 m/s Inquisitor - 338 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 2078 m/s Punisher - 313 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 1987 m/s Crusader - 569 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 4353 m/s Malediction - 569 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 4282 m/s
I think they can catch batteships...
Faction Store |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:30:00 -
[9]
Originally by: ceyriot Edited by: ceyriot on 25/04/2008 22:28:50
Originally by: Merdaneth Frig Base Speeds Crucifier - 306 m/s Executioner - 488 m/s Inquisitor - 338 m/s Punisher - 313 m/s Crusader - 569 m/s Malediction - 569 m/s
Frig Speed with AB II Crucifier - 689 m/s Executioner - 1310 m/s Inquisitor - 765 m/s Punisher - 723 m/s Crusader - 1498 m/s Malediction - 1461 m/s
Battleships with MWD II Armageddon - 1163 m/s Typhoon - 1477 m/s Tempest - 1385 m/s Megathron - 1213 m/s Raven - 1070 m/s
So, what do these numbers say? The numbers say that as soon as a battleship equips a Microwarpdrive frigate size ships will be utterly unable to catch the battleships without fitting a propulsion mod themselves. Even worse, most frigate-size ships will even be unable to catch most MWD-battleships if they just fit an Afterburner (AB).
Crucifier - 306 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 1866 m/s Executioner - 488 m/s - 1mn MWD II- 3839 m/s Inquisitor - 338 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 2078 m/s Punisher - 313 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 1987 m/s Crusader - 569 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 4353 m/s Malediction - 569 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 4282 m/s
I think they can catch batteships...
WHOOSH!
---------------- Tarminic - 35 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8) |
Radcjk
Caldari Dark Star LTD Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:30:00 -
[10]
Ceyriot beat me to the post, but yeah.
Also, being forced to mount an MWD doesnt take tactical options from you... it increases tactical flexibility. Wether real or fictional no war was ever won standing still.
Speed is life.
|
|
Tao Han
Synthetic Frontiers
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: ceyriot Edited by: ceyriot on 25/04/2008 22:28:50
Originally by: Merdaneth Frig Base Speeds Crucifier - 306 m/s Executioner - 488 m/s Inquisitor - 338 m/s Punisher - 313 m/s Crusader - 569 m/s Malediction - 569 m/s
Frig Speed with AB II Crucifier - 689 m/s Executioner - 1310 m/s Inquisitor - 765 m/s Punisher - 723 m/s Crusader - 1498 m/s Malediction - 1461 m/s
Battleships with MWD II Armageddon - 1163 m/s Typhoon - 1477 m/s Tempest - 1385 m/s Megathron - 1213 m/s Raven - 1070 m/s
So, what do these numbers say? The numbers say that as soon as a battleship equips a Microwarpdrive frigate size ships will be utterly unable to catch the battleships without fitting a propulsion mod themselves. Even worse, most frigate-size ships will even be unable to catch most MWD-battleships if they just fit an Afterburner (AB).
Crucifier - 306 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 1866 m/s Executioner - 488 m/s - 1mn MWD II- 3839 m/s Inquisitor - 338 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 2078 m/s Punisher - 313 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 1987 m/s Crusader - 569 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 4353 m/s Malediction - 569 m/s - 1mn MWD II - 4282 m/s
I think they can catch batteships...
Missing points alot?
|
Pantheon Lea
Farmer Boyz
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:39:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Tarminic What he's getting at is that regardless of whether you're flying a frigate, cruiser, or battleship, it's impossible to outrun any sub-capital ship with a MWD unless you have one yourself. If both ships have one, it's disadvantages don't really matter because they're applied to both ships.
That (the bold stuff) is only true in a 1 vs 1 fight. Pantheon Lea
|
Scout McAlt
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:40:00 -
[13]
Well, small scrambler ranges mean that you really need MWD's.
For example, a ship jumping into a camped system only need to travel 15km to get to gate. Without MWD, he is dead. With MWD, he has a chance. Cov op cloak without MWD can still be decloaked in competent camps.
Some guy plays station games. Only way to knock him off is via a bump, which is usually done by a MWD ship. Should all stations put you outside station at gate range to reduce empisis of MWD?
2 ships scramble each other. If one lacks mwd, his opponent will just MWD away and warp out due to 24km range of scramblers. Are these scramblers long enough?
A bunch of ships are chasing a hauler. Hauler uses mwd trick for max 10 second align insted of 20second+.
Basically MWD is very intergrated in the game. Chaning MWd requires a lot more discussions about how people use MWD's and if that is a good thing or not.
|
Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:41:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Radcjk Ceyriot beat me to the post, but yeah.
Please reread, you see Ceyriot made an error in interpreting what I said as gently pointed out by previous posters.
Originally by: Radcjk Also, being forced to mount an MWD doesnt take tactical options from you... it increases tactical flexibility. Wether real or fictional no war was ever won standing still.
Speed is life.
If you don't have a real choice in fitting a certain module, then an option it taken away from you. Deciding what to fit in your mid slots is a tactical choice. Hence my argument.
You are talking about battlefield flexibility, which is a whole other matter. I'm not arguing that great speed removes battlefield flexibility, just that the MWD removes fitting options and the speed differences from MWD's reduce mid-range fight options. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Davey Chase
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:43:00 -
[15]
web anyone?
|
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:43:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Tarminic on 25/04/2008 22:44:25
Originally by: Pantheon Lea
Originally by: Tarminic What he's getting at is that regardless of whether you're flying a frigate, cruiser, or battleship, it's impossible to outrun any sub-capital ship with a MWD unless you have one yourself. If both ships have one, it's disadvantages don't really matter because they're applied to both ships.
That (the bold stuff) is only true in a 1 vs 1 fight.
How so? If a second ship is involved on one side, it will have a MWD as well and as such will be equally disadvantaged.
Originally by: Davey Chase web anyone?
You still have to get inside web range first. ---------------- Tarminic - 35 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8) |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:43:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kravick Drasari Edited by: Kravick Drasari on 25/04/2008 22:23:54 The MWD has draw backs. It lowers your capacitor size and thus lowers capacitor recharge time. It also massively increases your signature radius making you easier to hit.
Good points. But unfortunately, each of these drawbacks hit most small ships fitting MWDs harder than most large ships doing the same, exacerbating the basic problem. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:45:00 -
[18]
Now posting with content...
I have to agree that the OP has a good point, and I've been saying for a while that Afterburners should be rebalanced upwards to make them a more attractive option for PvP fits, at the moment there almost purely a PvE only mod, though I know that's not exactly the kind of rebalancing the OP might have mind, it would at least allow ships of a smaller class to outrun some mwd fit ships of a larger class without suffering the capacitor and signature radius penalty's, which would have the added bonus of making the smaller ship harder to hit by larger guns/missiles. (Also, AB bonues on Assault Frigates please!)
I think with all the whineage its probably almost inevitable that speed is going to get nerfed in some way at some point in the future, and I don't see it being at all pretty if/when it happens, people get very attached to their playstyles and even a slight reduction to any aspect of it is bound to cause a threadnaught or ten... it would be nice if other things could be boosted to even the field without just hitting everything with the nerfhammer until every ship and fit is an homogenised template of sameness. -
(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
|
Fyrewyre
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:46:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tarminic Edited by: Tarminic on 25/04/2008 22:44:25
Originally by: Pantheon Lea
Originally by: Tarminic What he's getting at is that regardless of whether you're flying a frigate, cruiser, or battleship, it's impossible to outrun any sub-capital ship with a MWD unless you have one yourself. If both ships have one, it's disadvantages don't really matter because they're applied to both ships.
That (the bold stuff) is only true in a 1 vs 1 fight.
How so? If a second ship is involved on one side, it will have a MWD as well and as such will be equally disadvantaged.
Originally by: Davey Chase web anyone?
You still have to get inside web range first.
interceptors anyone? |
Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:46:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Scout McAlt Well, small scrambler ranges mean that you really need MWD's.
For example, a ship jumping into a camped system only need to travel 15km to get to gate. Without MWD, he is dead. With MWD, he has a chance. Cov op cloak without MWD can still be decloaked in competent camps.
Some guy plays station games. Only way to knock him off is via a bump, which is usually done by a MWD ship. Should all stations put you outside station at gate range to reduce empisis of MWD?
2 ships scramble each other. If one lacks mwd, his opponent will just MWD away and warp out due to 24km range of scramblers. Are these scramblers long enough?
A bunch of ships are chasing a hauler. Hauler uses mwd trick for max 10 second align insted of 20second+.
Basically MWD is very intergrated in the game. Chaning MWd requires a lot more discussions about how people use MWD's and if that is a good thing or not.
All very good points, but all support my argument: MWD's are neccessary. You merely point out that they are neccessary in many cases that do not involve ships chasing each other. Neccessary modules are not good for a game, they suggest an option, but they really remove choice. You might as well just remove a mid slot from most ships and give them a built-in MWD, 90% of players would not notice a difference.
But I agree it is very integrated into the game, therefore coming up with a good solution is not easy. But the fact that solutions might be difficult, does not mean the problem with MWD's is any less serious.
|
|
Face Lifter
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:47:00 -
[21]
MWD is just as integrated into EVE PvP model as warp scramblers.
Why try make any big changes to the very foundations of EVE? It would have make EVE into a different game. |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:48:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Fyrewyre interceptors anyone?
They would still need to fit a MWD, which is the entire point. |
Everyone Dies
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:48:00 -
[23]
MWDs should be nerfed 50% across the board |
Fyrewyre
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:50:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Fyrewyre interceptors anyone?
They would still need to fit a MWD, which is the entire point.
The point is that for just about every ying there is a yang if done correctly.
Either deal with it or die trying not to. |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:53:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Fyrewyre
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Fyrewyre interceptors anyone?
They would still need to fit a MWD, which is the entire point.
The point is that for just about every ying there is a yang if done correctly.
Either deal with it or die trying not to.
That's irrelevant to the discussion - we're talking about whether it's reasonable that in order for any sub-capital ship to catch a ship with a MWD, it needs to equip a MWD itself. I don't think that this should be the case for ships that are designed to be small and fast, or frigates at all really. |
kessah
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:53:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Everyone Dies MWDs should be nerfed 50% across the board
Its not mwd man, its the base speed.
MWD do what they say on the tin, EvE doesnt need a Speed limit enforced but hell it is basically the days of dual mwd at the current trends.
People will find any and all holes once one trends been nerfed, people cry about about it when they are but balance is key.
Then again im a battleship pilot il let my guns do what needs to be said |
Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 22:54:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Everyone Dies MWDs should be nerfed 50% across the board
Your portrait seems to indicate you have recently suffered an accident involving your head and a corrugated piece of lego, I'm afraid this means I can't take your post seriously.
|
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 23:01:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Fyrewyre Right now your just being silly, your moaning because you cant catch a ship because its faster than you, just use a different ship, a faster one?
No. He's pointing out that almost any ship with a MWD, outruns almost any ship without a MWD. And using frigates compared to battleships to illustrate this.
The OP makes an excellent point.
I'd also like to throw an oar in, that the divergence is also worse than it appears - larger ships have more slots, which exacerbates this particular difference.
Personally, I find MWDs are mandatory PvP mods.
I would rather they weren't. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 23:03:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Tarminic
That's irrelevant to the discussion - we're talking about whether it's reasonable that in order for any sub-capital ship to catch a ship with a MWD, it needs to equip a MWD itself. I don't think that this should be the case for ships that are designed to be small and fast, or frigates at all really.
A more sensible distribution of speed would be for example:
Average Frigate base speed = Average Cruiser speed with AB = Average Battleship speed with MWD.
Meaning frigates can be used without fitting any speed mod in some cases, and no battleship will outrun a frigate once the frigate fits an Afterburner. This is a base comparison before fitting speed modules, rigs etc. or considering ship classes (like a Stabber and Vaga) that are naturally fast for their class.
We all know that bigger ships generally have more room for speed mods, and are better value for isk when it comes to rigs that frigates, so bigger ships will still retain some flexibility in that respect. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Fyrewyre
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 23:08:00 -
[30]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Fyrewyre Right now your just being silly, your moaning because you cant catch a ship because its faster than you, just use a different ship, a faster one?
No. He's pointing out that almost any ship with a MWD, outruns almost any ship without a MWD. And using frigates compared to battleships to illustrate this.
The OP makes an excellent point.
I'd also like to throw an oar in, that the divergence is also worse than it appears - larger ships have more slots, which exacerbates this particular difference.
Personally, I find MWDs are mandatory PvP mods.
I would rather they weren't.
Well of course it would, any ship with a MWD would outrun anything without one, so where is the problem?, why would you not fit a MWD if you were able to?, you can always set your speed if you need to, its the blue bar at the bottom...... |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 .. 14 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |