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Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:08:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Merdaneth All the Nano-fits only emphasize the MWD's imbalance. The MWD is the key factor, not the speed rigs, many different speed mods etc. Take away the MWD, and they are all suddenly reasonable modules.
An excellent observation.
It's been pointed out already that MWDs do of course come with penalties, but we still see them in abundant use anyway. What does that tell you about their balance?
One other thought, however. If a BS has one fitted, it's just as likely - if not more so - that the reason for it is for short-term maneouvres like escaping bubbles in fleet situations and so on, as it is for a pure nano-fit where its use is more constant.
The idea of a MWD speed nerf certainly appeals to me, but I would be concerned if that led to an indirect dictor boost in turn.
/Ben |
Face Lifter
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:08:00 -
[32]
And I insist that making such drastic changes to fundamental design of EVE PvP is simply uncalled for.
Yes it can work as EVE-2 or some totally new game that is a rip off of EVE. But this game should not be destroyed for the sake of creating something new in its place. If you really want a space ship game with different game mechanics, try make one on your own.
I like the game as it is and the majority of people do too. |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:09:00 -
[33]
Maybe they could boost base speeds across the board, and then lower the speed boost granted by MWDs in a way that MWDing would give the same top speeds it does currently. This would be an indirect buff to ABs, at the same time, assuming that they weren't changed. I'm sure that a frigate with an AB could catch up to a BS with an MWD then. |
Pantheon Lea
Farmer Boyz
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:09:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Tarminic How so? If a second ship is involved on one side, it will have a MWD as well and as such will be equally disadvantaged.
A second ship does not have to fit a MWD, if the first one is enough to catch and hold the opponent.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:11:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Face Lifter And I insist that making such drastic changes to fundamental design of EVE PvP is simply uncalled for.
What changes are you talking about? |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:13:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Pantheon Lea
Originally by: Tarminic How so? If a second ship is involved on one side, it will have a MWD as well and as such will be equally disadvantaged.
A second ship does not have to fit a MWD, if the first one is enough to catch and hold the opponent.
Due to the secondary advantages a MWD offers (improved ability to evade bubbles, for example), this rarely happens. How often were you part of any engagement where the majority of players did not fit MWDs? Shooting POSes or other static targets don't count, of course. |
Fyrewyre
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:13:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Fyrewyre on 25/04/2008 23:13:05 Other things that havent been touched on:
Sig radius increase for using MWD Cap ? not able to use in deadspace?
And you still want a nerf?
i left a space here for other bits and bats |
Frug
Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:15:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Fyrewyre
Well of course it would, any ship with a MWD would outrun anything without one, so where is the problem?, why would you not fit a MWD if you were able to?, you can always set your speed if you need to, its the blue bar at the bottom......
Fail troll is fail.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:16:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Wet Ferret on 25/04/2008 23:19:01
Quote: Fail troll is fail.
Yea, good point.
(edited) |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:18:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Fyrewyre Edited by: Fyrewyre on 25/04/2008 23:13:05 Other things that havent been touched on:
Sig radius increase for using MWD Cap ? not able to use in deadspace?
And you still want a nerf?
The penatlies of a MWD are mostly irrelevant when both parties have one equipped. I've already addressed this.
Until you address my question, I'm inclined to believe that you're just trolling and will ignore you. |
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Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:24:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Tarminic
That's irrelevant to the discussion - we're talking about whether it's reasonable that in order for any sub-capital ship to catch a ship with a MWD, it needs to equip a MWD itself. I don't think that this should be the case for ships that are designed to be small and fast, or frigates at all really.
A more sensible distribution of speed would be for example:
Average Frigate base speed = Average Cruiser speed with AB = Average Battleship speed with MWD.
Meaning frigates can be used without fitting any speed mod in some cases, and no battleship will outrun a frigate once the frigate fits an Afterburner. This is a base comparison before fitting speed modules, rigs etc. or considering ship classes (like a Stabber and Vaga) that are naturally fast for their class.
We all know that bigger ships generally have more room for speed mods, and are better value for isk when it comes to rigs that frigates, so bigger ships will still retain some flexibility in that respect.
I was thinking along those lines as well... purely theoretical of course, but I think its obvious that the reason why MWDs are near 100% required fitting for PvP is because ALL the ships in Eve are just far too slow at their base speed.
If all ships base speed were what is now currently MWD speed minus say 50%, and ABs were +25% and MWDs +50%, then speed mods would be optional, not required.
I'd love to see this one on the test server just to see how it compares with our Eve... as for weather it would be a good thing or not its hard to say. |
Cailais
Amarr VITOC Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:25:00 -
[42]
ABs arent effected by webs, MWDs are - problem solved?
C. |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:26:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Fyrewyre Right now your just being silly, your moaning because you cant catch a ship because its faster than you, just use a different ship, a faster one?
I'm beginning to suspect that you're trolling, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
I don't think that MWDs should be mandatory in PvP. Currently they are because the advantages they provide far, far outweigh the disadvantages. This is demonstrated by the fact that the smallest and fastest combat ships in the game cannot catch the slowest battleships if they equip a MWD unless those ships also fit an MWD. Do you think that is reasonable?
While i still fit a mwd on my sniper ship out of habit i will say that in the huge fleet battles that are now the standard in eve it seems kind of useless tbh.
I know ppl will say it will get you out of a bubble but tbh i rarely see a bloody ship load the grid and have such huge module lag its mad let alone see a bubble on top of me. So tbh im starting to think that a mwd in large fleet ops for snipers is now kinda redundant. |
Jack Gilligan
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:26:00 -
[44]
How about this....
Eliminate MWD's above 1m from the game, convert them to afterburners of the appropriate type. This will prevent them from being effective on anything larger than a frigate sized ship. Small ships SHOULD be fast. Big ships shouldn't be able to outrun them. Cruisers, Battlecruisers, and battleships are slow. Frigates are intercepting/screening type vessels that are the flanks of a fleet.
Boost 10M and 100M afterburners a bit, so as to allow bigger ships a speed boost for the purposes of moving out of bubbles, etc, but not enough to attain 1000+ mps speeds.
Getting rid of cruiser and battleship sized MWD's solves the problems without creating an undesirable speed nerf to the ships that truly should be fast. There would be no need to make any changes to polycarbs, nanofibers, or propulsion boost modules.
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Pantheon Lea
Farmer Boyz
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:26:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Pantheon Lea
Originally by: Tarminic How so? If a second ship is involved on one side, it will have a MWD as well and as such will be equally disadvantaged.
A second ship does not have to fit a MWD, if the first one is enough to catch and hold the opponent.
Due to the secondary advantages a MWD offers (improved ability to evade bubbles, for example), this rarely happens. How often were you part of any engagement where the majority of players did not fit MWDs? Shooting POSes or other static targets don't count, of course.
We were coming from you writing this:
Originally by: Tarminic it's disadvantages don't really matter because they're applied to both ships.
That's only correct if you have only two ships, because a third can be quite useful without a MWD or with an inactive MWD fitted.
I have been in many fights without a MWD, but i normally never fly solo without it. |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:28:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Tarminic on 25/04/2008 23:30:40
Originally by: Alski I was thinking along those lines as well... purely theoretical of course, but I think its obvious that the reason why MWDs are near 100% required fitting for PvP is because ALL the ships in Eve are just far too slow at their base speed.
If all ships base speed were what is now currently MWD speed minus say 50%, and ABs were +25% and MWDs +50%, then speed mods would be optional, not required.
I'd love to see this one on the test server just to see how it compares with our Eve... as for weather it would be a good thing or not its hard to say.
I was thinking that we might want to go the opposite way, honestly.
Ramping the speed up on all ships means that you have to take a second look at almost EVERYTHING that is dependent on range. And that is...well...almost everything. Also, while combat might become a bit more fast-paced, it will magnify the effects of lag and increase the impact of limited grid sizes.
What I would consider doing - and this is just my opinion - is reduce the speed bonus of cruiser MWDs by about 30-40 percent and the speed bonus of battleship MWDs by 50 percent. Of course, I might be hanged for doing so immediately afterward, but I think it would be better for combat overall.
Originally by: Pantheon Lea I have been in many fights without a MWD, but i normally never fly solo without it.
Could you give me an example? As I stated before, fights were mobility isn't an issue such as POS-busting wouldn't be relevant here. |
Fyrewyre
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:30:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Pantheon Lea
Originally by: Tarminic How so? If a second ship is involved on one side, it will have a MWD as well and as such will be equally disadvantaged.
A second ship does not have to fit a MWD, if the first one is enough to catch and hold the opponent.
Due to the secondary advantages a MWD offers (improved ability to evade bubbles, for example), this rarely happens. How often were you part of any engagement where the majority of players did not fit MWDs? Shooting POSes or other static targets don't count, of course.
Sorry, didnt realise said question was actually a question.
Afterburners - slight speed increase Microwarpdrive - moar penalty, bigger speed increase webber - affects both
it really is that simple. |
Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:30:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Merdaneth This is not about nano-gangs, or speed fits, or snake implants. This is about the Microwarpdrive (MWD).
Frig Base Speeds Crucifier - 306 m/s Executioner - 488 m/s Inquisitor - 338 m/s Punisher - 313 m/s Crusader - 569 m/s Malediction - 569 m/s
Frig Speed with AB II Crucifier - 689 m/s Executioner - 1310 m/s Inquisitor - 765 m/s Punisher - 723 m/s Crusader - 1498 m/s Malediction - 1461 m/s
Battleships with MWD II Armageddon - 1163 m/s Typhoon - 1477 m/s Tempest - 1385 m/s Megathron - 1213 m/s Raven - 1070 m/s
So, what do these numbers say? The numbers say that as soon as a battleship equips a Microwarpdrive frigate size ships will be utterly unable to catch the battleships without fitting a propulsion mod themselves. Even worse, most frigate-size ships will even be unable to catch most MWD-battleships if they just fit an Afterburner (AB).
In other words: if you want to catch a ship with MWD, you need an MWD yourself. The speed difference between no propulsion module or an AB and a MWD is so great that even the fastest ship class (frigate) can not catch the slowest ship class (battleships) unless they fit an MWD too.
Since in many cases you need to 'catch' or at least keep a hostile within scrambler range, this means that as soon as a hostile starts fitting an MWD, you need one too. Without one, you cannot try to dictate range, close with the hostile or outmaneuver him. This means that the more people start to use MWD's, the more neccessary it becomes to fit an MWD yourself.
Once fitting a module becomes a neccesity, its not really a choice anymore. And the point of having fitting slots is making choices. MWD's remove choice from EVE, MWD's remove tactical options from EVE. The speed boost of an MWD is too great in comparison with ship's base speeds and the benefit of an Afterburner.
I'm all in favor of having nano-ships as an option in EVE. I don't mind some ships outrunning missiles and being generally untrackable. I don't mind people in pimped out ships with snake implants achieving crazy speeds. I do think MWD cause to great of a speed difference between those who fit them, and those who don't. The absolute speed has perhaps gotten a bit high with rigs, but its the speed difference that is most important.
The enormous speed boost from a MWD also neccessitates the enormous speed reduction brought about by webbers. If the speed boost would be less, the webber strength could be less as well, and give small ships that are webbed a chance. Together with the 20km max scrambler range, the MWD is the main cause that there is nearly no mid-range combat.
I'm not proposing a solution in my post. I feel we need to analyze and understand the problem well before we can come up with the solution. And I think the aspect of speed differences is more important than absolute speed attainable, and the greatest cause of this is the MWD. This issue hasn't been adressed enough to my liking.
All the Nano-fits only emphasize the MWD's imbalance. The MWD is the key factor, not the speed rigs, many different speed mods etc. Take away the MWD, and they are all suddenly reasonable modules.
You don't even have a ******* clue, do you?
/me shakes his head... |
Skjorta
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:30:00 -
[49]
Do you realize how fast it takes a BS to reach the max speed?
Comparing apples to oranges.
try AB vs AB
not AB vs MWD.
bad troll, 2/10. |
Fyrewyre
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:34:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Skjorta Do you realize how fast it takes a BS to reach the max speed?
Comparing apples to oranges.
try AB vs AB
not AB vs MWD.
bad troll, 2/10.
Thank **** for that |
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Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:47:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Alski on 25/04/2008 23:47:34
Originally by: Tarminic Edited by: Tarminic on 25/04/2008 23:30:40
Originally by: Alski I was thinking along those lines as well... purely theoretical of course, but I think its obvious that the reason why MWDs are near 100% required fitting for PvP is because ALL the ships in Eve are just far too slow at their base speed.
If all ships base speed were what is now currently MWD speed minus say 50%, and ABs were +25% and MWDs +50%, then speed mods would be optional, not required.
I'd love to see this one on the test server just to see how it compares with our Eve... as for weather it would be a good thing or not its hard to say.
I was thinking that we might want to go the opposite way, honestly.
Ramping the speed up on all ships means that you have to take a second look at almost EVERYTHING that is dependent on range. And that is...well...almost everything. Also, while combat might become a bit more fast-paced, it will magnify the effects of lag and increase the impact of limited grid sizes.
What I would consider doing - and this is just my opinion - is reduce the speed bonus of cruiser MWDs by about 30-40 percent and the speed bonus of battleship MWDs by 50 percent. Of course, I might be hanged for doing so immediately afterward, but I think it would be better for combat overall.
Yeah at first I thought you'd misunderstood me, as on paper it looks like an equal amount of nerfage and boostage (I hope you understood me right, 25/50% of there new base speed, not current mwd speed), but your right... if a BS could sustain a speed of 600m/s indefinitely without using cap, it would have an effect on everything from performance of webs, gun tracking, missiles...etc.
I'm not sure it would make combat any more fast paced, if anything it might slow it down a little (i'm thinking esp on small ships, since fewer ships would be fitting mwds = lower sig radius = longer lock times.)
On the other hand... aside from allowing all ships to go at 50% of their current mwd speed without using cap, it wouldn't really put any extra requirements on tracking etc than mwd users are already doing, if anything it would probably be a boost to smaller ships as they would be more difficult to lock and hit.
The bigger issue would probably be that it does little to nerf those ships/fits that are perceived as overpowered, and so for many people would be fixing nothing, plus there's the fact that all ships PG/CPU usage is balanced around being able to fit a module that would become near completely optional...
Definitely a can of worms... i'd still love to see it on sisi though, even just as an experiment </wishfull thinking> -
(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
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KillinVillin
Gallente Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:47:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Merdaneth This is not about nano-gangs, or speed fits, or snake implants. This is about the Microwarpdrive (MWD).
Frig Base Speeds Crucifier - 306 m/s Executioner - 488 m/s Inquisitor - 338 m/s Punisher - 313 m/s Crusader - 569 m/s Malediction - 569 m/s
Frig Speed with AB II Crucifier - 689 m/s Executioner - 1310 m/s Inquisitor - 765 m/s Punisher - 723 m/s Crusader - 1498 m/s Malediction - 1461 m/s
Battleships with MWD II Armageddon - 1163 m/s Typhoon - 1477 m/s Tempest - 1385 m/s Megathron - 1213 m/s Raven - 1070 m/s
So, what do these numbers say? The numbers say that as soon as a battleship equips a Microwarpdrive frigate size ships will be utterly unable to catch the battleships without fitting a propulsion mod themselves. Even worse, most frigate-size ships will even be unable to catch most MWD-battleships if they just fit an Afterburner (AB).
I don't post much on the fourms, but i read them everyday. So I'll give it a whirl. A battleship trying to get max speed with a microwarpdrive will take about 20 seconds or longer, so not only is it decated in going in one direction.
It's outa cap, and no room for tank. MWD on a battleship are for last resort when running.
If your mad 1v1 a frig can't take out a battleship then I dont agree with your post.
It takes a frig 6 seconds max to get full speed, when a battleship has not even reached 100% speed boost. People run to gate's is why you can't get them, not MWD.
Stop Playing With "EFT" It's Bad For Your Health.
Killin
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Seriya
Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:50:00 -
[53]
The OP's point as I see it, made as it was with a rather strange choice of stastics, is that ABs are rubbish and MWDs are really good. I agree with this point, the modules are not at all balanced. Hypotheticlly speaking, if we increase AB base bonus from +105% to +200%, and decrease MWD base bonus from +500% to +400%, would people still use MWDs over Afterburners as often as they do now?
I think they would, in which case why is the disparity in bonuses so absolutely huge?
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Frug
Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.04.26 00:05:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Seriya The OP's point as I see it, made as it was with a rather strange choice of stastics, is that ABs are rubbish and MWDs are really good. I agree with this point, the modules are not at all balanced. Hypotheticlly speaking, if we increase AB base bonus from +105% to +200%, and decrease MWD base bonus from +500% to +400%, would people still use MWDs over Afterburners as often as they do now?
I think they would, in which case why is the disparity in bonuses so absolutely huge?
That's what I got out of it too. I don't think an inty without any speed module should be able to catch an MWDing BS, but I think an AB fitted anything shouldn't be trash.
If the above changes got made i think it might almost start being worth it with some setups. |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.26 00:12:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Tarminic on 26/04/2008 00:13:41
Quote: It's outa cap, and no room for tank. MWD on a battleship are for last resort when running.
Most battleships fit cap boosters in PvP.
Quote: It takes a frig 6 seconds max to get full speed, when a battleship has not even reached 100% speed boost. People run to gate's is why you can't get them, not MWD.
That only holds true if the frigate is less than 25KM from the battleship when they turn on their MWDs, otherwise the frigate will not be able to close quickly enough to get within web range before the battleship reaches max speed. This is using the 6 seconds vs. 20 second acceleration you mentioned earlier.
EDIT: For these calculations I'm using a constant acceleration, so this may not be accurate. |
Dynast
Helios Incorporated Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.26 00:25:00 -
[56]
Originally by: James Lyrus No. He's pointing out that almost any ship with a MWD, outruns almost any ship without a MWD. And using frigates compared to battleships to illustrate this.
The OP makes an excellent point.
First off, the OP is creating a phantom problem. Something that sounds like one but isn't. BSs being able to go faster than frigs when they fit for speed and the frig doesn't, is not a problem. It's frankly rather absurd to claim it is... it's like saying a BS that fits lots of sensor boosters locking faster than a frig is unfair. There is no hard-and-fast rule that "frigs must always be faster than BSs".
Second, MWD's are not mandatory pvp mods. They are very, very useful mods in PvP, but that doesn't change the fact that you can head over to the videos section and grab videos of pilots in BSs with medium range weapons (pulses or torps, usually) owning without MWD's. Hell, you could even head out in one of these fits that benefits from much more cap and available grid and midslot and do some owning yourself. Many ships benefit greatly from a 6x speed multiplier, but it's not required to win. |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari Naqam
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Posted - 2008.04.26 00:32:00 -
[57]
OP makes a good point on which I'm going to have to agree.
Originally by: Tarminic
I don't think that MWDs should be mandatory in PvP. Currently they are because the advantages they provide far, far outweigh the disadvantages.
Going into 0.0 without either a MWD or Carrier support is practically suicide. Afterburners also are used very rarely in comparison, useful on AFs, the Pilgrim and in Deadspace.
Webs are also a ridiculously powerful tool |
Hannobaal
Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.26 00:40:00 -
[58]
Microwarpdrives really do give too much speed comapared to afterburners. There are very, very few situations in pvp combat where it would be worth using an afterburner instead of an mwd. The penalties just don't matter compared to the huge speed boost that you get out of it. I don't think there needs to be any fundamental changes in how the two modules works, but the numbers need to be tweaked to give afterburners a little more of an edge.
Say, 20% smaller speed boost from mwd across the board, 20% larger sig radius penalty, and 20% larger speed boost from afterburners? |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.04.26 00:50:00 -
[59]
Actually according to that list an executioner can catch any amarr BS fairly easily since ABs have a lot less cap use and frigates accelerate a lot faster than battleships. Typhoon might give it a shot at outrunning it, but that's what minmatar is supposed to do.
True that if you have an mwd, you usually need an mwd to be caught. But the severe cap and sig radius penalties make using an mwd for long a very, very bad idea. |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.26 00:55:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Vaal Erit Actually according to that list an executioner can catch any amarr BS fairly easily since ABs have a lot less cap use and frigates accelerate a lot faster than battleships. Typhoon might give it a shot at outrunning it, but that's what minmatar is supposed to do.
True that if you have an mwd, you usually need an mwd to be caught. But the severe cap and sig radius penalties make using an mwd for long a very, very bad idea.
Almost all PvP ships come with cap boosters nowadays. Using one of those, and assuming you had a dozen charges (half the average BS's cargohold), you could still use it for two minutes or more. In that time you will either defeat the frigate chasing after you or just withdraw. |
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