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000Hunter000
Gallente Missiles 'R' Us
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Posted - 2008.04.26 21:22:00 -
[1]
It's been around for.. well atleast as long as i can remember, which is 4 years sofar, it never really seemed to be a problem unless i think it was somewhere last year, suddenly a small number started whining how local should go cuz it was too much of an intel window... Well it has always been like that? so whats the problem now? the people complaining about it don't have enough skill? the people using it to scan for incomming people have too little nerves? What?
So tell me, why does it have to go now, while it ovbviously did not bother anyone for more then 3 years? (i also have a number of other items which i question why they had to be changed but lets focus on this one for now)
Anyways i'm keeping an open mind and would like to see someone seriously try to convince me otherwise, but personally i think it will actually have a very very bad side effect, namely even less people in low/no sec, personally i would not mine/rat there for 1 second if i did not have the means to find out who's comming and who's going, esp cuz the only thing the pirate has to do is warp from belt to belt to find the poor sap who's mining/ratting. |
Grainsalt
Free-Corp Foundation Liberty Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.26 21:27:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Grainsalt on 26/04/2008 21:29:07 Well I can see both sides...
Attackers .... Mwoooooor targets as they just scan as they go it to a system. Defenders (mainly new 0.0 people), will generally get peaved off and won't want to venture to 0.0 / low sec even more than now.
Now, here's the rub... Add a decent scanner system that warns of new people entering system and you may just have it, of course most people wont be bothered and will EMO rage anyway.
.. and anyway, what we really want is more fights at gates don't we ..... guys? guys? don't we? |
Saris
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.26 21:42:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Saris on 26/04/2008 21:42:20 Local has been a problem for sometime now. The reason the view on it changed is two fold.
1.) In the beggining Eve was just a fifteen dollar a month mining simulator. Missions didnt exist no t2. production was hard because all the factory slots were rented for monthe on in you couldn't do research with out have to pay absurd amounts of isk for a slot because people would put 5 years worth of research on things. Rats were a ton harder for no isk gain. No one had isk so no pvp was really taking place so no one cared about local.
2.) Now you have standings showing in local so you can see enemies with a simple scroll instead of having to show info one at a time 600 times.
There are other minor reasons why local sucks isk farmers cloaking and logging real people doing the same it is a huge tactical advantage for no resources put into it. Things have now swung so far into why local needs to go it causes more problems then it solves and that is why people are more vocal. |
Slate Fistcrunch
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Posted - 2008.04.26 21:44:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Slate Fistcrunch on 26/04/2008 21:45:36 Getting intel about your surroundings via local is an unrealistic and unbalancing aspect of the game. It's like a fog-of-war removing hack for a real time strategy game or wall hacks for a first person shooter.
How you get your intel about your surroundings needs to be redone. Getting rid of local is a small part of the solution but it is the first logical step. The other parts of the solution are what we all argue about. |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.04.26 22:26:00 -
[5]
Keep local, just reduce it to grid range. So you can chat with the people in your belt, in your complex or at your gate. Cloaked people don't show up in local ever, even when they speak. Have local be limited inside stations, replacing the guest list.
Add a system chat that you can join or not, exposing yourself freely to be in the system, and you get removed from it when you leave the system.
Add a station scanner, where you can get a grid wide scan around the station for ISK.
Add different kinds of probes that you can strategically place at gates or stations to gain the intel you currently can gather from local.
Give sov holders a intel advantage by showing them everyone in their personal local instead of only those that speak.
Removing local should not mean removing intel, it should mean to make gathering intel a more active role. Becoming a dedicated scout would be a valuable profession for those people that shy away from direct combat.
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OffBeaT
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Posted - 2008.04.26 22:56:00 -
[6]
people like me where asking for local chat too be done away with long ago but the carebears dont seem too understand they can hide better that way and not be seen.
hard core that i sopport..
no instas too gates its messed the hole game up in many diffrent ways.
no local chat i would like too not be seen in a system as pray or hunter.
no insorance for pirating in low sec space.
no 00 map showing me where evryone is or how many anywhere. thats just stupit too see that easy..
anyone elise can think of any.. |
Maidel
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.27 00:22:00 -
[7]
Originally by: OffBeaT but the carebears dont seem too understand they can hide better that way and not be seen. no local chat i would like too not be seen in a system as pray or hunter.
You see this is the major flaw to peoples thinkings. They all say it would make it easier for 'carebears' (read miner/ missioner) to hide.
Well no. Imagine in one system there is a lonely attentive hulk pilot mining. In the current system, 5 reds enter the system, he aligns and warps back to safe/ station. If the reds got lucky they caught him before he could warp off, but otherwise, he gets safe.
Now imagine the other system, there is no local, he gets no warning that reds have jumped in. So, he sits there, spamming the scanner for ever. An unidentified craft appears on scanner, he has 4 seconds to warp off before that ship arrives in his belt and he dies.
Its so easy for the attackers, they can warp into a system, scan it to their hearts content and gank away. Hell they could log in the system, come back the next day, scan until they get a target, kill it and no one could have ever seen them enter the system.
It totally moves the advantage to the attacker and the defender will get screwed every time. |
techzer0
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.27 00:30:00 -
[8]
Originally by: OffBeaT no insorance for pirating in low sec space.
Troll much??
Not that I bother insuring most of my ships, but really... suicide gankers getting insurance is more of an issue. |
Hannobaal
Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.27 00:58:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Maidel
Originally by: OffBeaT but the carebears dont seem too understand they can hide better that way and not be seen. no local chat i would like too not be seen in a system as pray or hunter.
You see this is the major flaw to peoples thinkings. They all say it would make it easier for 'carebears' (read miner/ missioner) to hide.
Well no. Imagine in one system there is a lonely attentive hulk pilot mining. In the current system, 5 reds enter the system, he aligns and warps back to safe/ station. If the reds got lucky they caught him before he could warp off, but otherwise, he gets safe.
Now imagine the other system, there is no local, he gets no warning that reds have jumped in. So, he sits there, spamming the scanner for ever. An unidentified craft appears on scanner, he has 4 seconds to warp off before that ship arrives in his belt and he dies.
Its so easy for the attackers, they can warp into a system, scan it to their hearts content and gank away. Hell they could log in the system, come back the next day, scan until they get a target, kill it and no one could have ever seen them enter the system.
It totally moves the advantage to the attacker and the defender will get screwed every time.
That's one way to look at it, but here's the other side of it. You're out roaming looking for targets (or scouting for a small roaming gang looking for targets). As soon as you jump into local you know right away what is in the system and whether it is worth going around scanning it or not. You also know right away if there's anything dangerous in there that you need to watch out for. That's extremely useful intel. Without local you would have to run around scanning every single system you move through. Especially in 0.0 (which is a lot bigger than low-sec) that would be a huge disadvantage.
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OffBeaT
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Posted - 2008.04.27 01:26:00 -
[10]
Originally by: techzer0
Originally by: OffBeaT no insorance for pirating in low sec space.
Troll much??
Not that I bother insuring most of my ships, but really... suicide gankers getting insurance is more of an issue.
whatever you say richie rich.. i belive you dont insour your highend ships, realy i do.
umm, troll? i play what i say in here so if i say somthing its becouse i have been there seen it and don it.. so when i got somthing too say i say it.. get use too it! |
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5pinDizzy
Amarr Pwnage Distribution Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.27 02:57:00 -
[11]
I don't think it should go, I just think local should only show the total number of people in system, and everyone is invisible except wartargets and alliance/corpmembers, unless they say something.
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Mudrat
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Posted - 2008.04.27 02:58:00 -
[12]
you folks need to keep up to date with posts about this game on other sites
local is not going anywhere, more intel tools are incoming.
pie-rates have it easy enough. they dont need it any easier.
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Spaceways
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Posted - 2008.04.27 03:19:00 -
[13]
CCP has on their "drawing board" the removal of fixed asteroid belts and their replacement with a more exploration-like way of finding rocks to mine. Once this is implemented, removing local will make much more sense.
Removing local now would be a major boost for the pirates because miners' and ratters' locations are freely visible to anyone who right-clicks in space. Pirates could pop into a system with a pre-existing plan for which belts each tackler will warp to, and even miners who click their scanner every 30 seconds will have to be very lucky with timing in order to stay alive. Once the asteroid belts are concealed, it will be much more reasonable to expect the bears to watch out for themselves. --- I'm looking for a good 0.0 corp to join. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.04.27 03:35:00 -
[14]
Originally by: 000Hunter000 Well it has always been like that? so whats the problem now? the people complaining about it don't have enough skill? the people using it to scan for incomming people have too little nerves? What? So tell me, why does it have to go now, while it ovbviously did not bother anyone for more then 3 years?
It has been like that for ages, true, but it HAS bothered people... just not so many people. The more popular EVE gets, the more "PvP averse" people join up, and the more metagaming to avoid PvP happens. When the goons came up with the "icon replacement" thingy and forced CCP's hand to introduce visible standings markers on the local portrait view, it started a quick downhill slope, culminating in the recent BACON debacle.
So... yeah, it's always been a problem, just not a big problem because there weren't so many people relying on it to metagame so much. And it's now gotten to the point where any benefits of leaving it alone as it is are insignificant compared to the overall drawbacks of so many people relying on it for intel purposes.
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Face Lifter
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Posted - 2008.04.27 03:57:00 -
[15]
Important concept: anyone who appears on your Overview - same grid as you and not cloaked - should also become listed in local chat.
There's no point in forcing local to hide names of people that have been scouted short range. |
El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.27 04:01:00 -
[16]
The ones that want local removed are thinking it will give them easy kills. They know that any scanner system the average player isn't going to remember to turn on or observe, so they figure it'll give them an advantage. That's the real gist of it.
There is nothing wrong with the local system, in fact it helps the pirates as much as it hurts them.
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Face Lifter
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Posted - 2008.04.27 04:06:00 -
[17]
Originally by: El'Niaga The ones that want local removed are thinking it will give them easy kills. They know that any scanner system the average player isn't going to remember to turn on or observe, so they figure it'll give them an advantage. That's the real gist of it.
There is nothing wrong with the local system, in fact it helps the pirates as much as it hurts them.
Your first point goes against the 2nd point.
But if we assume that you really believe your 2nd point, then you agree that removing local isn't about helping pirates or carebears, it's about making scouting information more player skill oriented. Involve the player more, don't spoon feed him.
It would reinforce EVE as hardcore game, where smart people have the real advantages. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.04.27 04:10:00 -
[18]
Actually, it's not so much "local" that's the problem, it's CTRL-Q. IF ships would persist in space indefinetely, a lot less people would be complaining about local. Then indeed, the only ways to be safe is to be docked (or in a ship with a covops cloak which is active, assuming one keeps the emergency warp on disconnect).
1|2|3|4|5. |
z0de
Gallente The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.04.27 04:13:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Grainsalt Add a decent scanner system that warns of new people entering system and you may just have it, of course most people wont be bothered and will EMO rage anyway.
I wouldn't say no to an infinite range scanner.
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.27 04:17:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Face Lifter
Originally by: El'Niaga The ones that want local removed are thinking it will give them easy kills. They know that any scanner system the average player isn't going to remember to turn on or observe, so they figure it'll give them an advantage. That's the real gist of it.
There is nothing wrong with the local system, in fact it helps the pirates as much as it hurts them.
Your first point goes against the 2nd point.
But if we assume that you really believe your 2nd point, then you agree that removing local isn't about helping pirates or carebears, it's about making scouting information more player skill oriented. Involve the player more, don't spoon feed him.
It would reinforce EVE as hardcore game, where smart people have the real advantages.
They are not opposed to one another.
There is only so much stress a person playing a game can take. Increasing stress to dangerous levels is not healthy for the game. Most video game players are not in good physical shape.
Removing local will result in more 'carebears' leaving the game because the stress will become to much and the risk vs reward will be so out of their favor it longer becomes worth it. CCP needs the 'carebears' as much as they need everyone else to keep the game going at its current rate of development.
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Apoctasy
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Posted - 2008.04.27 04:24:00 -
[21]
Local was never a problem until some vocal minority made it one. Such is the case with many of Eve's so called "problems."
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Hannobaal
Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.27 04:27:00 -
[22]
To be honest, the main reason I am for removing local as an intel too is so that the anti-"afk cloaker" whine crowd will STFU.
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Fzhal
Caldari PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.04.27 04:39:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Abrazzar Keep local, just reduce it to grid range. So you can chat with the people in your belt, in your complex or at your gate. Cloaked people don't show up in local ever, even when they speak. Have local be limited inside stations, replacing the guest list.
Add a system chat that you can join or not, exposing yourself freely to be in the system, and you get removed from it when you leave the system.
Add a station scanner, where you can get a grid wide scan around the station for ISK.
Add different kinds of probes that you can strategically place at gates or stations to gain the intel you currently can gather from local.
Give sov holders a intel advantage by showing them everyone in their personal local instead of only those that speak.
Removing local should not mean removing intel, it should mean to make gathering intel a more active role. Becoming a dedicated scout would be a valuable profession for those people that shy away from direct combat.
I agree with Abrazar.
I would add a good new "Intel" box. This box would have timestamps about what is happening with your intel insystem. And if you had enough intel it would be very much like local for a price.
For good drone skills I'd like to see a Gate Drone and Gate Probe.
Gate Probes would be placed up to 5,000 Km away from a gate and would update every 5 seconds with what ships have entered and left the system, maybe even keep you updated if a ship is sitting at the gate. But if someone cloaked within 2 seconds of entering then this would not be reported. These would be destroyed if the character left the system or if someone probed them out and destroyed them.
The Gate Drone would sit 100-300 Km from the gate and would update you with the name of the person like local does. This would work even if someone cloaked immediately. These would be easy to destroy if the person wasn't paying attention to the "Intel" box and didn't recall the drone quickly enough. But if you warp the drone to you then it tells that person what direction you are.
Perhaps if a POS were placed at a moon near the gate it could act as a Gate Probe for the Corp members insystem.
With this system hopefully it could be well enough implemented that the "Intel" box could be like local if you had all of the solar system gates populated with drones or probes.
That would be my ideal system. It would be realistic and immersive. Only pirates would complain about this. But only because it doesn't let them have easy kills. But at least it is better for them than local that is in place now. |
000Hunter000
Gallente Missiles 'R' Us
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Posted - 2008.04.27 10:55:00 -
[24]
Yes i'm starting to see the point of both sides as well, problem is, if u remove local without replacing it with a system for the miner/missionrunner to know who's comming and going, he will be thorougly threaded, for the pirate/combat patrol it is annoying cuz as soon as they enter system, all the people wo don't want to fight will just warp and dock/log.
If u make the system of keeping track who's comming and going too good however, whats the point of removing local in the first place.
Personally i don't see an easy solution for this, the only thing i can think of is to make scanning local for incomming pilots more work intensive, but do we really want that as well? _______________________________________________________ CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.04.27 11:11:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 27/04/2008 11:13:02
My biggest beef with local is the way it instantly identifies you as a pilot. I believe it needs to be replaced (not simply removed) with something more in keeping with immersion, i.e. an auto scanner that pings contacts out to a finite range, with a long range scanner (10's of AU) that gives you contacts and the size of the contacts (do it by the mass of the contact?), and a shorter range scanner (several AU perhaps) that identifies what the target is and identifies if it has a 'blue' transponder.
Local in 0.0 as it stands ruins the immersion.
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
Thirzarr
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Posted - 2008.04.27 11:24:00 -
[26]
Why I want local to go? Because its too much like a chat and not at all like "communication" you would expect in a spacegame.
Intel tool... metagaming... bla!
I dont minf getting blown up, when I know it was MY mistake and MY failure to gain the intel I would have needed. Wether I was mining or ratting or Missioning or actively looking for fights.
Recon, Scouting, Scanner, Warning Systems, ... all those things that get removed and rendered "unimplementable" due to 2 "glitches": Map and Chat.
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Kale Kold
Caldari Vicious Little Killers
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Posted - 2008.04.27 12:26:00 -
[27]
Local is essential for war! period! If local goes, something equal has to replace it or how else are you going to find people your at war with/have bad standings with?
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Eye Q
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Posted - 2008.04.27 13:40:00 -
[28]
It's funny. So many ppl think local chat unbalances the game. How unbalanced will it be when covert ships can port in, attack and run without anyone knowing? Oh wait...that's how it's supposed to be...hmmm
Dont get rid of local...just change it. make it like long-range scan...system wide that detects automatically anyone in the system unless they're cloaked....cloaked ships chatting in any channel have a chance to be detected on "subspace frequencies".
Allow players out in the system to turn on "ship detection" or "suspicious activity monitoring" or something like that. It'll be more realistic but it will still unbalance the game toward covert ships, there's now way around that.
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Ringo Jeicha
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.27 13:44:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kale Kold Local is essential for war! period! If local goes, something equal has to replace it or how else are you going to find people your at war with/have bad standings with?
By actively scanning?
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Kitty Corona
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Posted - 2008.04.27 14:03:00 -
[30]
IDK Local is the most powerful intel tool the game has. To remove it will completely corrupt the entire social and intel politic of the game. I don't think I'd still be comfortable without it.
Pirates BAWWWWW about local, that it isn't 'fair' but it's just as 'unfair' as nanofaggotry and cruisers going faster than interceptors. How stacked do you need the game for piracy? Local is not anti-lulz it's just fine. Removing it will ***k up this game entirely and make it un-fun.
PROTIP: not everyone is in a 1000 person alliance using alliance chat as an intel channel. In NRDS areas, there are a lot of us that rely on local for everything. Removing it is just taking a ton of people and telling them to go **** themselves.
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