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Crovan
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.04.29 01:47:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Bish Ounen
The whole dragging Hydra across the coals bit was out of line. Yes, some of the statements by CCP Devs and GM's have not been EXACTLY in line with what was said by the OP of the BACON thread, But as Reuser has stated, they spoke with CCP first, you did not. Stop trying to make fallacious inferences about CCP staff opinion when you don't have the whole picture.
Originally by: GM Grimmi
"While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer."
I do not make an unfair inference that CCP is not pleased with the situation. This statement confirmed my suspicion on CCP's opinion, but I was careful not to state it publicly until I had confirmation.
By contrast, Cesar says (emphasis mine) "BACON's method of interaction with the log server and logs are EULA and TOS compliant and approved by CCP. Please see this thread for further information. (Specifically, CCP Lingorm and CCP Grimmi's statements)." The exact quote from CCP Lingorm is "Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer."
Originally by: Bish Ounen
The biggest issue I have with the whole whinefest about BACON is the simple fact that EVERY MAJOR ALLIANCE ALREADY HAS A SIMILAR PROGRAM. All of the major players in EVE have had a tool just like this one for YEARS now. Goons have the "bee" program,. BoB has one (I forget the name of it now). I understand that Red Alliance has one as well. (although I have no independent confirmation of that, so take it with a grain of salt.)
Patently untrue. Even if all of those entities do, MC, responsible for the directing of the destruction of D2 and the entire north about a year ago, has never, and if I have my way, will never use such a utility.
Originally by: Bish Ounen
I have no doubt that every single Macro mining group and Mission farming group has been using MUCH MORE POWERFUL software for years now. I know of automation software that will do what BACON does and MUCH MUCH more, including an AI that will run missions for you and respond to player interaction with basic responses. So please don't insult our intelligence by saying BACOn will make macroer's worse. BACON is NOTHING compared to what is already in use. Most macroer's won't even bother with BACON, it's too primitive and limited in scope.
Again, you make a rather bold claim with no support. It is possible that major RMT groups already have better automation software, but there are clearly some who do not. I have many Raven killmails that match the patterns of ISK farmers that demonstrate my point. While some may already have better software, this provides it to those who do not.
The Drone Bay Podcast
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Crovan
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.04.29 01:54:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
By speaking out against BACON, all you are really doing is restricting this type of very valuable tool to the domain of large and powerful alliances, and players who can program. Essentially, you are unintentionally assisting in the amalgamation of ISK and power into the hands of a select few players, to the detriment of everyone else. BACON levels the playing field, allowing anyone to have a powerful tool that assists in protecting you against roaming gangs and piracy.
This is a false dichotomy. All I was bringing up are some of the (presumably) unintended consequences of the software. BACON does not level the playing field. It provides an out of game tool that a CCP employee has publicly spoken out against, the use of which is to provide a function that is undesirable from CCP's perspective.
Originally by: Bish Ounen
I also noticed quite a bit of whining about your precious play style. As I am sure you have said to many many other people who you have ganked in the past, ADAPT OR DIE. Roaming nano gank gangs no longer useful? Too bad. Bring a fleet next time.
Alternately, you can leave EvE and give me your stuff. Because I will be using BACON for as long as I am able.
I debated answering this blatant ad hominem, but decided that this sort of thing actually exemplifies why this discussion has gone the way it has, by and large. Logic has given way to name-calling and bitterness. I have never told a victim to "ADAPT OR DIE." I think that statement is distasteful, since people will play the game how they want. Furthermore, how is one to adapt to something that exists outside of the game? By your argument, I could fairly presume that the correct course of action is for PVPers out there to create a utility that is able to manipulate logs to see what is going on a number of systems away to prepare ambushes. Given BACON's function, this is the most effective counter I can come up with at the moment.
As for "bring a fleet," you are proving my point. What if I don't want to bring a fleet? You ignore the statements where I put forth that CCP wants to diminish the power of the blob, yet your answer to my complaints about lack of PvP due to this tool are to succumb to the very same blob.
Again, it was against my better judgement to answer what really turned into a personal attack and a bit of a troll, but your earlier arguments are prevalent enough that I felt it necessary to take them line by line.
The Drone Bay Podcast
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Crovan
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.04.29 01:56:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Crovan on 29/04/2008 01:57:58
The Drone Bay Podcast
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 01:56:00 -
[34]
Mail sent, from Gunfleet CEO.
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Bish Ounen
Gallente
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.29 02:46:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Crovan
I do not make an unfair inference that CCP is not pleased with the situation. This statement confirmed my suspicion on CCP's opinion, but I was careful not to state it publicly until I had confirmation.
By contrast, Cesar says (emphasis mine) "BACON's method of interaction with the log server and logs are EULA and TOS compliant and approved by CCP. Please see this thread for further information. (Specifically, CCP Lingorm and CCP Grimmi's statements)." The exact quote from CCP Lingorm is "Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer."
And, you AGAIN completely overlook the posts IN THIS VERY THREAD by Reuser:
Quote:
Cesar is in much closer contact with CCP than you are, and CCP has not asked Gunfleet to pull the software. When they do, we will. It's that simple. Read that again: The second that CCP asks us to pull BACON, we will. My guess is that CCP has a bit more insight as to the scope of the existing tools than you do, and understand exactly how little BACON matters.
Gunfleet has been in conversation with CCP since BEFORE the forum eruption started. they have more information than YOU on what CCP approves and does not approve, and if CCP tells them that they do not approve, then Gunfleet will pull it. What you have seen is the opinion of a SINGLE GM, saying that he's not so keen on it, but doesn't see how they can stop it. This does NOT amount to a formal declaration on the legality of BACON, no matter how badly you clearly want to spin it that way.
Quote:
Patently untrue. Even if all of those entities do, MC, responsible for the directing of the destruction of D2 and the entire north about a year ago, has never, and if I have my way, will never use such a utility.
I will give you that not EVERY major alliance uses a BACON-like program. Clearly MC does not. I did engage in a bit of hyperbole with that bit, and so I will modify it. However, the rest of my statement stands. MANY (not every) of the major alliances do use it, simply because it assists in overall fleet SA and operations.
What I also find interesting is your repeated statements in this thread and in other threads that BACON is so "game breaking". Despite the fact that BoB uses a similar program, MC has been fairly successful at taking space from BoB. Perhaps it's not such an uber cheater program after all?
Quote:
Again, you make a rather bold claim with no support. It is possible that major RMT groups already have better automation software, but there are clearly some who do not. I have many Raven killmails that match the patterns of ISK farmers that demonstrate my point. While some may already have better software, this provides it to those who do not.
Thing about this one, I really CANNOT provide evidence by linking to the offending programs, now can I? That would end up getting me rather quickly banned. However, anyone with an IOTA of intellectual honesty would realize that, spend maybe 10 minutes Googling, and find everything I am talking about clearly and easily available for download and purchase right online.
Obviously, some RMT groups are smarter than others, and some software features are newer and buggy. Thus, you will get SOME RMT-er kills. However, since it's not really possible for you as an end user to tell who is an RMT player and who isn't, your assertion regarding raven killmails is specious at best.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 03:06:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Reuser on 29/04/2008 03:10:09
I'd like to take this opportunity to redirect the thread, from BACON to The Drone Bay's podcast. There is a 30 page threadnaught on BACON. Rereading my posts, I am going to try harder to keep that out of this thread, and ask for BACON criticism to go to that thread.
Looking forward to working with The Drone Bay's people on an interview soon.
It's hard to run a podcast, and I respect what they've done.
EDIT - I think commentary about the COVERAGE itself is fair game, but I think everyone would rather keep outright BACON rabble rousing in the other thread.
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Bish Ounen
Gallente
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.29 03:25:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Crovan
This is a false dichotomy. All I was bringing up are some of the (presumably) unintended consequences of the software. BACON does not level the playing field. It provides an out of game tool that a CCP employee has publicly spoken out against, the use of which is to provide a function that is undesirable from CCP's perspective.
This is you missing the point completely and not comprehending anything I said previously. BACON absolutely levels the playing field. To say it does not is to deny the existence of other programs already in existence that do what BACON does and much more.
Also, a CCP Employee has NOT publicly "Spoken out against" BACON. This is a lie ONE CCP employee, GM Grimmi, has said that he didn't really like BACON. However, you are attempting to imply, again, that CCP as a corporation has made a statement that it has not. I refer you back to the previous posts by Reuser. YOU do NOT have all the info. Thusly you have no business making statements like that.
You will notice that I have not stated what I think CCP's opinion is. That is because I do not know. While a lack of disapproval may indeed amount to tacit approval, I choose to wait for a formal Dev Blog statement.
Originally by: Crovan
I debated answering this blatant ad hominem, but decided that this sort of thing actually exemplifies why this discussion has gone the way it has, by and large. Logic has given way to name-calling and bitterness. I have never told a victim to "ADAPT OR DIE." I think that statement is distasteful, since people will play the game how they want. Furthermore, how is one to adapt to something that exists outside of the game? By your argument, I could fairly presume that the correct course of action is for PVPers out there to create a utility that is able to manipulate logs to see what is going on a number of systems away to prepare ambushes. Given BACON's function, this is the most effective counter I can come up with at the moment.
As for "bring a fleet," you are proving my point. What if I don't want to bring a fleet? You ignore the statements where I put forth that CCP wants to diminish the power of the blob, yet your answer to my complaints about lack of PvP due to this tool are to succumb to the very same blob.
Again, it was against my better judgement to answer what really turned into a personal attack and a bit of a troll, but your earlier arguments are prevalent enough that I felt it necessary to take them line by line.
First of all, it's not an ad hominem if it is true. I listened to the podcast. At least 15 minutes alone was spend whining about "lost playstyle" and "making it not fun for me." That sounded like nothing but the same kind of whining and forum drama we get here all the time. Only I was listening to it on a podcast.
You ask me, "What if I don't want to bring a fleet?" I would throw it right back at you; What if I don't want to get ganked by a nano gang because I was looking at some other part of the UI at the moment you entered the system?
Why should I be required to do nothing but sit in station with my eyes glued to local just so you can have your fun? Ever get the idea that maybe other people don't find THAT fun? What is the recourse for ordinary players who are low on ISK and need to rat to make more, but you and your buddies keep roaming around popping their ships? Where is the balance? BACON provides the balance.
It's quite obvious that you do not understand this. You (and your co-podcasters) are too wrapped up in the loss of your precious play style to be able to honestly asses what a fantastic program BACON really is. Apparently anyone who calls you on your blatant bias is a "troll" engaging in "Ad Hominem attacks". Sorry, but that dog don't hunt here. You, and your fellow ideological travelers are simply WRONG about BACON. Those of us that aren't so busy hyperventilating about play style can see it. Too bad you can't.
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Donald Truman
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Posted - 2008.04.29 03:57:00 -
[38]
Thank you guys for what was easily the most reasoned anti-BACON argument I've heard or read so far. A couple of notes:
While it's undeniably true that Cesar gave CCP's words just a bit of a twist, I'm a little on the "so what" side of that. Honestly, in my limited experience here, "EVE Forum Poster Plays Loose with Truth" seems right up there in terms of newsworthiness with "Dog Bites Man" and "Goons Act Weird".
What struck me about what followed wasn't so much the ad hominem per se, as it was the level of outright hysteria expressed, and by whom. I mean, you saw representatives of a veritable Who's Who of the Alliance Tournament and the territory maps out and out threatening to quit the game if CCP didn't take a sledgehammer to this program and anyone associated with it immediately.
And frankly, speaking as one who has suffered seeing my fellow newbs flamed mercilessly on many occasions by many of these same veterans every time one of them fails to instantly accept some of the crueler aspects of this game, seeing the whining going the other way for once was both refreshing and downright hilarious.
As to the plea for segments: I wish I had enough experience with this game to contribute, as I did such a segment for The Instance once and rather enjoyed it (not to mention the thrill when I heard it used!). Unfortunately, this seems to be a game where knowledge is guarded rather jealously by many of those possessing it. I guess it's one of the hazards of a single-server PvP game: knowledge you give out is knowledge that is liable to be used against you one day. It's kind of telling, really, that groups like Eve University stand out as much as they do for being willing to buck that trend.
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Alsedrech
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Posted - 2008.04.29 05:07:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Donald Truman
Thank you guys for what was easily the most reasoned anti-BACON argument I've heard or read so far.
Thank you. We were trying to provoke discussion, which I suppose we have, albeit more of the same that I complain about in the show. Still, nice to see a few reasoned posts from both sides on the issue and the interview should be enlightening.
Originally by: Donald Truman
While it's undeniably true that Cesar gave CCP's words just a bit of a twist, I'm a little on the "so what" side of that. Honestly, in my limited experience here, "EVE Forum Poster Plays Loose with Truth" seems right up there in terms of newsworthiness with "Dog Bites Man" and "Goons Act Weird".
Fair enough. My take on this is that when posting on a forum in the spirit of openness and communication, the subsequent argument that you know more than everyone else and you're just not telling them doesn't go over real well. This isn't about twisting words or hyperbole; itĘs about misstating facts that are highly relevant and creating confusion where there neednĘt be any. Does CCP approve, or do the just refuse to disapprove? If CCP, as has been suggested, is secretly talking to Caesar about how great BACON is, then letĘs just get the proof of that approval out here so we can end this misunderstanding. The problem is so far every time we have been shown the 'proof' of CCP's approval it hasn't been approval. Thus we default to a certain amount of skepticism. Hopefully the secret approval for this program will come to light and we can end all this.
Of course all that will prove is that CCP is OK with the program. That won't make the program any less onerous, it will mean simply that CCP approves.
Originally by: Donald Truman
And frankly, speaking as one who has suffered seeing my fellow newbs flamed mercilessly on many occasions by many of these same veterans every time one of them fails to instantly accept some of the crueler aspects of this game, seeing the whining going the other way for once was both refreshing and downright hilarious.
I too am a fairly new player and it is always fun to watch the old guys flounder. Of course the problem here is that looking into the future I have to wonder: will this make the game better or worse? The argument is aptly presented that this provides balance, but balancing a bad thing by providing it to everyone is never the best solution. If I cheat on a test should my teacher stop me from cheating or simply allow everyone to cheat? What if we accept that a certain number of people will cheat no matter what? Balance through uniformity is viable, but it results in a culture of mediocrity; of the lowest common denominator. That is not what I want for EvE, and so, while I do not believe at this moment CCP has approved this program, even if they secretly have, I would still be displeased by it.
As to knowledge, we will give it out where we can get it. Very soon we'll do a PvP primer where you can ask Crovan all you ever wanted to know about how best to blow him up. I plan to practice that particular skill after the show if anyone wants to help. Knowledge is valuable, but in a true spirit of balancing we are trying to get it out as fast as possible. Hope you keep listening and enjoy the show.
Don't panic.
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Alsedrech
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Posted - 2008.04.29 05:43:00 -
[40]
On a side note, I am really loud this week. I'll try to adjust that for next week, though I may be out for a series of finals involving criminal law. Well, the final is about property, but after I threaten my Prof. it may become a criminal matter...
Anywho thanks for the mail we've already gotten. I'll go ahead and put this challenge out here. We have lots of ideas left for Don't Panic, but were at a juncture where we can go a couple of different dirrections as to what area we cover next. So please...PLEEEEASE give us an idea of what field you would like to hear about next. A lot of PvP? More on fitting and ship development? Corp management? Persuasive forum discussion technique? Underwater basket weaving? Just let us know.
Don't panic.
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Zakgram
Atomic Heroes
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 06:24:00 -
[41]
Regardless of my personal views to using 3rd party software at all I found the 10-15 minute rant pretty dull. Ok... so you don't agree with it. Fine. Say so. Move on.
And check your voice levels!
Thanks - otherwise a great podcast.
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Micia
Minmatar
Thrace Inc
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.04.29 07:10:00 -
[42]
Another great show, though... Sweet Mother of Matar, get those audio-levels under control! 
The Bacon issue? I fully agree with the podcast. It's a game-breaker.
I think it was Crovan (correct me if I have the wrong speaker) was also talking about the history of why we have +/- in Local now. That's a long time in the past, but yeah. The reason we all have that now is just like he talks about.
I might even suggest that Bacon may have been a great way to bring things to a head. There are plenty of alliances/corps that already use similar programmes... some even better.
Looking forward to hearing a rebuttal/defence by Bacon. Better do a damn good job, to sway me from my opinion. 
_______
We are Ushra'Khan. We come for our people.  |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 08:10:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Alekseyev Karrde on 29/04/2008 08:11:41
I endorse this product/service and its fair coverage of BACON.
As to Crovan's lost playstyle pineing, I would suggest empathy to listeners. It's very difficult to be 100% objective about something that negativly impacts you to such a substantial degree. He stated his bias right away and went from there with an honest and not overly hyperbolized treatment of how it affects his core enjoyment of the game.
Crovan and I fufill a similar role in the game, albiet there is a great difference in scale. Pure miners and ratters may grab bacon and turn to the PVP as if to say "Ha HA! I can finally fight back!" While you may not like the PVPers who threaten you and sometimes blow up your ship, we play to enjoy the game just like you (and we're also your customers ;p). CCP provides you with many tools already to stay safe. I can tell you from my own experience that catching people in belts in 0.0 has a very low attempt/success ratio so they work fine for people that pay attention to their game and have learned (skills?) how to react to danger. BACON inhibits attack on those players that would otherwise fall pray to a light/small PVP gang and rightly so, because they got careless/made a mistake in one way or another. And this aspect of it, let alone the potential for grand scale abuse that the Drone Bay outlines, essentially boils down to griefing small gang pvpers and the small scale, low lag, high fun enagements that go with them. I hope Crovan's segment helps shed some light to the other side of the coin and promotes some understanding of why BACON is so harmful.
As to segments, if I knew how to make Mp3's I'd love to do a news segment or something. But i dont so unless one of you is willing to unnoob me...
EDIT: typos
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
Chigun
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Posted - 2008.04.29 09:38:00 -
[44]
Well, Croven, your Bacon rant finally got me to post for once. And I have to say I am seriously disappointed in your reaction. I liked your podcast till now, I even laughed through the Hordecast joke. But your closed minded , short sighted view of the changes Bacon introduces makes me really question your continued value as a podcaster.
I for one like Eve because it's the most realistic depiction of a virtual world I've found yet. You can steal from and kill other players any where with real repercussions when the cops find you. Bacon is simply the sort of program I would want as a capsuleer, and stays fairly consistent with the in game logic. Concord provides the data to allow "Local" chat. Why wouldn't someone want audio cues based on that sensor data? How does this hurt anyone? You can even use the program in its inverse to spot new victims when they jump into your system.
Personally I think CCP should combat ISK farmers and macro miners by opening up the client for UI mods and simple macros like WoW and EQ. I'm flying a ******* spaceship around the galaxy, with auto targeting computers, fire and forget warheads, and god damn combat and logistics drones. Why can't I program those drones or even my ship to fly back and forth mining a belt? And by sanctioning the use of such a simple macro in game they can control their use and provide appropriate consequences. Maybe Concord could recognize you're using such a macro and not respond when your ship gets attacked since no one is in there. Maybe insurance wouldn't pay out if you were destroyed while macroing because of your own negligence. And just like Bacon this wouldn't preclude the use of intelligent game play. Someone still needs to sit at a computer playing the ******* game. With my above examples someone would need to guard the auto-mining ships. Maybe not the same player, but someone.
In fact this macro scheme would even allow you to continue your small scale PVP with software like Bacon out there. You could control a small fleet by yourself with logistics and warp negating frigates, and long range missile boats all being directed by you in your carrier.
And Crovan, give it some serious thought before you spout off on your podcast. I won't be so childish as to unsubscribe when I disagree with one point, but I'm hoping you and your co-hosts will calm down, and reconsider your "Chicken Little" response in future episodes. Things change, game play evolves, and new tactics and strategies must be developed to cope. Don't fear the change, embrace it.
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Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.29 13:49:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Ki An on 29/04/2008 13:49:35
Originally by: Reuser
You sir, are a troll.
If Cesar misled anyone on CCP's stance, they would have locked and holed the thread at the very least. They've done it before, they'll do it again. The thread still exists.
What logical conclusions can you deduce from this?
How am I a troll? You base your view on wether Cesar is lying or not on the fact that the thread is open. You're basically saying that CCP has a "no-lying" stance on their forums.
I base my view on the fact that the OP is clearly misrepresenting the facts when he says that the program is "CCP approved" despite the fact that the post from CCP he refers to specifically states "Please do not take this as CCP approval".
Are you seriously expecting anyone to buy that you guys are sitting on information where CCP approves this but that you don't let the public know about it? The whole charade you're putting up with all the "Cesar has been in contact with CCP and you have not" is a bit of epic Bull if I've ever seen any. Why can't you just realise that CCP disapproves of your little macro, that most of the community disapproves and that your boy Cesar lied? All the evidence speak against you. Take it like a man ffs.
Sorry for once again derailing, Crovan.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.04.29 13:55:00 -
[46]
Awesome episode, Croviepoo & Co.
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manasi
Caldari
Ceptacemia
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.04.29 14:47:00 -
[47]
*/troll sighted
Originally by: Chigun
*/end troll sighting
Oh a more serious note I agree with Crovan, Al and CK, something that helps you... by not paying attention to the game, is a deal breaker. Audible warning set to read a log file that CCP may not currently have a "block" for while clever, is not necessarily "right".
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1st MOAB
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Posted - 2008.04.29 15:06:00 -
[48]
Edited by: 1st MOAB on 29/04/2008 15:06:24
for next weeks new play guide could you please talk about logistics ships. I have found so far that the community loves to give new player advice on things like piracy and production and even how to fit a battleship however logistics ships are extremely powerful. Not because of their damage because normally there is no damage to speak of. But because of their ability to keep fleet alive which is usually what ruins the opposing fleet And causes Fleet battles to end with 90% casualties on one side and 10% on the other.
hell if I can drag the time together and might even record you such a guide with Sony Vegas. However time is a bit "what is this spare time you speak of" at the moment for me :(
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 16:09:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Ki An
Are you seriously expecting anyone to buy that you guys are sitting on information where CCP approves this but that you don't let the public know about it? The whole charade you're putting up with all the "Cesar has been in contact with CCP and you have not" is a bit of epic Bull if I've ever seen any. Why can't you just realise that CCP disapproves of your little macro, that most of the community disapproves and that your boy Cesar lied? All the evidence speak against you. Take it like a man ffs.
Sorry for once again derailing, Crovan.
Again with the trolling. It's simple. We've offered to CCP to take down the BACON website at any time, if they ask us to do so. They have not asked us to do so.
Can we also talk about your reading comprehension and ability to place things in chronological order? Basically, we asked CCP if the method that BACON collects it's data was legal. Our first CCP response said, in effect, "I'm not sure, I think it is, I'll go check." The second CCP response said, "Okay, go ahead and launch, but we'll be watching you." We then launched, specifically mentioning that the METHOD BACON used was not against the EULA or TOS. A quote for you, since you're fond of misquoting.... "BACON's method of interaction with the log server and logs are EULA and TOS compliant and approved by CCP." That's not a lie. Later, during the thread, CCP Grimmi says that they "frown" on this use of the tool. That's hardly a categorical disapproval of the tool.
I'm not expecting anyone to buy anything. Unlike most of the drama surrounding BACON, we've been open, honest and transparent since Day 1.
Now, if you want to keep trolling, can you get out of Crovan's thread?
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Mozetta
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:59:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Mozetta on 29/04/2008 17:59:37
Originally by: Reuser
Again with the trolling. It's simple. We've offered to CCP to take down the BACON website at any time, if they ask us to do so. They have not asked us to do so.
Can we also talk about your reading comprehension and ability to place things in chronological order? Basically, we asked CCP if the method that BACON collects it's data was legal. Our first CCP response said, in effect, "I'm not sure, I think it is, I'll go check." The second CCP response said, "Okay, go ahead and launch, but we'll be watching you." We then launched, specifically mentioning that the METHOD BACON used was not against the EULA or TOS. A quote for you, since you're fond of misquoting.... "BACON's method of interaction with the log server and logs are EULA and TOS compliant and approved by CCP." That's not a lie. Later, during the thread, CCP Grimmi says that they "frown" on this use of the tool. That's hardly a categorical disapproval of the tool.
I'm not expecting anyone to buy anything. Unlike most of the drama surrounding BACON, we've been open, honest and transparent since Day 1.
Now, if you want to keep trolling, can you get out of Crovan's thread?
Pretty cheap calling me a troll when I'm calling you on your BS. CCP said that the method of data collection does not appear to break the TOS or the EULA. How the hell do you translate that into "We approve of this product"? The second, again, said that the product didn't appear to be against the TOS or the EULA. Again, it did not say "We approve of this product". In fact, the first response asked you specifically to not take it as CCP approval.
Ok, now that we've established that "CCP approved" is at best a misrepresentation of the truth, and at worst, a lie, we can move on. CCP, apparently, investigated the program like they said they would. After a while, they came to the conclusion that this product was bad, made "unintended use of the log server", and is, in fact, an exploit. Since CCP can't detect the program, they have no way of banning it outright without losing face (making a rule you can't enforce is not a good thing). They made it clear that they did not approve of the program by saying that they "frowns upon it". This, of course, means that people should not be using it if they respect the wishes of CCP and the community.
As for CCP not asking you to take down the program, that's a strawman if I ever saw one. First, CCP has no business telling people what they can and can't put up on 3rd party webpages, so such a request could end up biting them in the ass later on. Second, given the amount of publicity the program has been getting (thanks to your public release), copies of it are already in wide circulation, and cutting the original source will not stem the spread.
Now, I understand that you guys in Hydra are feeling kinda low because of the flak you've been getting over this. Just so you know, if you wheren't so adamant in your continued support for that bastard child of yours (BACON, not Cesar), people would soon forgive you. As you continue to defend the program you are soon beyond forgiveness. Just give it up. Accept that what you created was bad, and go on playing the game, as opposed to letting 3rd party software play it for you.
Lousy alts, this is Ki An.
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Leonora Webb
Gallente
Novus Satus
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Posted - 2008.04.29 19:09:00 -
[51]
*wades in*
Great podcast again, guys, thanks! Loved the rantings, well-spoken throughout and entertaining. Most refreshing, much credit.
*wades out*
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TimGascoigne
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Posted - 2008.04.30 19:12:00 -
[52]
this must stay at the top!!!
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AlienHand
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Posted - 2008.04.30 21:00:00 -
[53]
Hi Crovan and Co. !!
Regarding to main topic (Bacon) I totally agree with you guys. Either you play or you don't play.
While listening to the show I got this image in my head - about using BACON in my car. Then I could read the paper or jerk off while driving and only pay attention to the road when BACON alerts me when I get to close to other cars ... well that's kinda stupid ... like BACON.
About the sound quality in this podcast: Sometimes your voice gets low and hard to hear - especially when the others talk at the same time.
So I would like to ask you what kind of editing program you use creating the podcast - I may be able to help...
Again - fun show and interesting. Great work guys!
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Sevana Da'shar
Minmatar
The Ganymede Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.05.01 05:26:00 -
[54]
Listened to the podcast yesterday at work and loved... as I have all the others so far. Only been playing Eve since the end of Nov. '07 and still pretty noobish in discovering all the little tricks and nifty suprises in this wonderfully addicting game. I look forward to more great episodes, this is an excellent source of info for myself and I'm sure many others. Thanks guys!!!
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