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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.05.04 16:02:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Candice Bormardin But - if I have ALREADY MADE AN ITEM - and I WANT TO SELL IT - when I go to the trade hub - I WILL UNDERBID EVERYONE ELSE - or I will NOT be ALLOWED to sell it. I have no other choice.
And that's exactly the argument we're trying to explain to you. YOU DO HAVE ANOTHER CHOICE No, you're not necessarily forced to underbid everybody else to sell it, regardless of how low the bid is. If the sell price you have to list it at gets low enough, you can simply recycle it and sell the minerals for more. Moreso, going even further with that logic, you shoudn't have manufactured the item in the first place to begin with (do market research first, not blindly manufacture then try to sell), and just sold the minerals (or manufactured something else instead).
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redtalonn
Gallente Frogs of Armageddon
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Posted - 2008.05.04 17:20:00 -
[62]
Hmm, if I am right( reading through 2 pages of posts made me forget what the original statement was) it was mentioned that if you keep your own salvage and make your own rigs, they are free as salvage if free if you dont buy them.
But, in my experience( i've only ever made 1 item and it was in the tutorial mission) manufacturing is not free. You have to pay some costs to rent the facility/make the item.
So therefore, making your own rigs isnt free. |
Joe Starbreaker
Smoking Hillbillys
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Posted - 2008.05.04 19:08:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Dreadchain Candice, can I hire you? Ill pay a thousand isk a hour for you time mine veldspar for me, that equals a thousand isk per hour profit for you.
You said it much better than I did. The point is made, I think, and the proof of Candice's failure is complete.
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.05.04 20:22:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Dreadchain Candice, can I hire you? Ill pay a thousand isk a hour for you time mine veldspar for me, that equals a thousand isk per hour profit for you.
You said it much better than I did. The point is made, I think, and the proof of Candice's failure is complete.
Confirmed. |
Candice Bormardin
Caldari Jouvulen Enterprises Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.04 21:06:00 -
[65]
Dreadchain - No thanks I prefer to work for myself and keep all I make however much it is. Maybe as I learn more about the game I'll learn how to increase the amount of money I make - but then that is what I'm doing now. While the rocks are free, learning isn't.
Akita - while what I said about selling that particular item is correct, you are correct in that I did have another choice and could have just reprocessed the item I'd made and have sold it's minerals.
You are also correct about researching the market before you make something to see what you can get for it. As I mentioned above - that is all part of learning process. The thing is, when you're just starting out you tend to take things in steps, first learning how to mine, then learning how to refine, research blue prints and then about your different options for trading.
For the most part, I don't think it's been an issue very often. I don't believe I have sold many things below what I could have gotten for their minerals but I can't say how well I've done since I wasn't in the habit of checking. I am now but then it depends on the item. If I'm relatively certain that I'm selling well above the mineral value of the item then I don't bother to do the math but if I think I'm close to it then I do and if needed adjust my price.
The other factor in this - is that most of the stuff I've made - I initially was making for my own use and then trying to see if I could sell some of it. Sometimes that's worked out well and sometimes it hasn't. *shrug* More of the learning process in action. The things that didn't sell well or which I couldn't get enough ISK for - I don't make any more.
redtalonn - just as the rocks themselves are free for the taking - the salvage also is free for the taking. Whatever you may pay in other expenses - you do not have to pay anything to salvage a wreck. Yes - it does cost you something in skill points and equipment to have the option to salvage - BUT - once you have made the initial investment in skills and equipment there is no charge per wreck. You pay other fees as part of the manufacturing process or pay various fees or taxes to sell your salvage - but - you do not pay to turn on your salvager and salvage the wreck. Thus, just as there are expenses involved in manufacturing an item from the ore - that doesn't change the fact that you are not paying anything for the rocks themselves.
I never said that making anything was free - I said that the basic materials - whether salvage or ore - were free. If you look at the words used by the malcotch, even he qualified his statement saying that the manufacturing was "effectively" free. I however was responding to the statement I underlined above. What I said was:
Originally by: Candice Bormardin The fact of the matter is - salvage materials and ore are free.
The issue isn't whether or not your materials are free - the issue is how you use those materials.
Some may argue that you have costs associated with your efforts but that doesn't mean that the basic materials themselves aren't free.
If you BUY the salvage - just as if you buy the ore - THEN you are paying something for it. But if you salvage it yourself - you are not paying anything for the raw materials - whatever it may have cost you to have the opportunity to mine or salvage.
Ah Joe - congratulations - you've found yet another of the many smart asses on this board.
Both of you fail at being able to read.
*shrug*
Though of course - if you are just being a troll ... *shrug* ...
Having called you on what you're doing ... I can't expect that you're ever going to concede anything here - but then that's what comes with trolls.
Pirates are part of the game. Trolls are part of the posting board.
Other people have responded to my posts with intelligent comments where we may have just disagreed - but I guess you feel that being a troll is more fun.
*shrug* |
Candice Bormardin
Caldari Jouvulen Enterprises Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.04 21:11:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Dreadchain Candice, can I hire you? Ill pay a thousand isk a hour for you time mine veldspar for me, that equals a thousand isk per hour profit for you.
You said it much better than I did. The point is made, I think, and the proof of Candice's failure is complete.
Confirmed.
So, you've chosen to join the trolls.
Sorry I didn't respond directly to your first post.
I did read it and didn't have a big problem with what you said then but I guess you need to feel that someone is paying attention to you.
I hope that I didn't hurt your feelings.
Please - have a nice day.
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Joe Starbreaker
Smoking Hillbillys Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.05.04 21:15:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Candice Bormardin
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Dreadchain Candice, can I hire you? Ill pay a thousand isk a hour for you time mine veldspar for me, that equals a thousand isk per hour profit for you.
You said it much better than I did. The point is made, I think, and the proof of Candice's failure is complete.
Confirmed.
So, you've chosen to join the trolls.
Candice, the votes are in. You're wrong. Perhaps you're trolling, but the length of your posts, and Occam's Razor, suggest that you're just dumb. If you can't be arsed to take a course in Economics, try reading a book like "Rich Dad, Poor Dad". Such books dumb down financial concepts so that even kids like you can understand them. |
Candice Bormardin
Caldari Jouvulen Enterprises Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.04 21:20:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Candice Bormardin on 04/05/2008 21:20:26
You have a nice day too Joe.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.05.04 23:47:00 -
[69]
Oh, she seems to understand the concepts very well. She just insists in using certain specific definitions of words when making her claims. Basically, it's just a semantics argument.
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Candice Bormardin
Caldari Jouvulen Enterprises Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 00:17:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Akita T Oh, she seems to understand the concepts very well. She just insists in using certain specific definitions of words when making her claims. Basically, it's just a semantics argument.
To a large degree I'd agree with that.
As I've said, I always understood what the people saying "the rocks aren't free" meant - and - largely didn't disagree with what they MEANT. I was just trying to point out that what they were SAYING wasn't entirely accurate.
But this would hardly be the first and is probably not going to be the last ... discussion ... I've had that was essentially about what the words meant.
*shrug*
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Billy Sastard
Amarr Life. Universe. Everything. Wrath.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 00:43:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Candice Bormardin
Originally by: Akita T Oh, she seems to understand the concepts very well. She just insists in using certain specific definitions of words when making her claims. Basically, it's just a semantics argument.
To a large degree I'd agree with that.
As I've said, I always understood what the people saying "the rocks aren't free" meant - and - largely didn't disagree with what they MEANT. I was just trying to point out that what they were SAYING wasn't entirely accurate.
But this would hardly be the first and is probably not going to be the last ... discussion ... I've had that was essentially about what the words meant.
*shrug*
What a nice way to state that all you have been doing so far is trolling this topic...
GO YOU! |
Candice Bormardin
Caldari Jouvulen Enterprises Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 01:00:00 -
[72]
And ... you have a nice day too Billy.
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Kilostream
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.05 11:01:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Candice Bormardin It's like this:
If you don't pay money for it - it is free.
You fail at economics so badly!
If something is "free" great! However you shouldn't equate something being free with it having no value.
If you mine a big pile of rocks, and take it to the refinery, you are left with a big pile of minerals.
Whether you see those minerals as free or not is irrelevant, those minerals have a market value, which is where most people that take this 'free' argument and go on to build a BS and sell it at less-than-mineral cost shoot themselves in the foot - they are completely overlooking the fact they could have just sold the minerals, saved themselves the BPC, factory slot etc costs, and made more isk!
How about another "fun" activity? - Let's imagine you entered a competition and won a car or something - would you then think "ah that competition only COST me $1 to enter, I think I'll sell the car for $2"? Or would you sell it for something nearer it's market value?
Granted isk is only fictional money - but "real" money is fictional too, it's powerful influence only lies in the fact that it is a fiction we all subscribe to.
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Candice Bormardin
Caldari Jouvulen Enterprises Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 11:05:00 -
[74]
Kilostream, all of that has already been addressed several times.
If you don't want to read all of this thread I don't blame you - but your comments have already been addressed.
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Caleese
New Eden Research And Design School
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Posted - 2008.05.05 11:41:00 -
[75]
Just when I thought the eve population couldn't get any stupider, I read this thread. It's no wonder the market is such a mess when there's so many idiots out there with no concept of economics.
----------------- Think of someone you consider of average intelligence... now realise this. Half the worlds population is dumber than that person. How does the world survive such stupidity? |
Candice Bormardin
Caldari Jouvulen Enterprises Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 12:00:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Caleese Just when I thought the eve population couldn't get any stupider, I read this thread. It's no wonder the market is such a mess when there's so many idiots out there with no concept of economics.
You and most of the others have continually missed the point.
You're all so caught up in what you think is being said that you don't read it.
But that's how most people read. Their preconceptions come first, then filter everything through that.
Economics isn't really the issue here and never has been.
The real issue is and has always been using the English Language accurately.
"The Rocks Aren't Free" says something which simply isn't true, even though the person saying it actually means something else.
The stupidity here - is on the part of people who can't use English.
But again - all this has already been covered - so if you'd actually read all that - and been able to understand it - you wouldn't have posted ... unless of course you're simply another troll.
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Val Vesta
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Posted - 2008.05.05 12:03:00 -
[77]
Candice, when market journals report that Bill Gate's is worth 100 billion dollars they mean in cash right?
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Candice Bormardin
Caldari Jouvulen Enterprises Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 12:25:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Val Vesta Candice, when market journals report that Bill Gate's is worth 100 billion dollars they mean in cash right?
Bill Gates net worth has nothing to do with the fact that the asteroids are floating in space free for the taking.
I've addressed this time and again already. Read the previous posts.
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Val Vesta
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Posted - 2008.05.05 12:28:00 -
[79]
Dodgeball.
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.05.05 14:06:00 -
[80]
I decided to read the thread before I spoke. I got half way through it and got to one statement and decided to just go ahead and post these pieces of food for thought.
CNN
University of Chicago Press Journals
Slade
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voetius
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Posted - 2008.05.05 14:14:00 -
[81]
Slade - two interesting articles you found there. WRT to the second one I do have to keep strict timesheets in RL so that influences how I think about spending time in game. I.e. how much time it takes on specific activities at a particular skill level versus the ISK reward.
So in my first few days I bought a Bantam and just mined - making 150 - 200K per hour. Low risk, steady income.
Used that ISK to buy a Kestrel and then started mission running and so on...
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.05.05 14:34:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 05/05/2008 14:36:37
Originally by: voetius
Slade - two interesting articles you found there. WRT to the second one I do have to keep strict timesheets in RL so that influences how I think about spending time in game. I.e. how much time it takes on specific activities at a particular skill level versus the ISK reward.
So in my first few days I bought a Bantam and just mined - making 150 - 200K per hour. Low risk, steady income.
Used that ISK to buy a Kestrel and then started mission running and so on...
LOL, That is why I did not direct those articles to anyone person in particular.
This is in fact a game. So a massive amount of micro management could destroy the experiance for someones ultimate enjoyment of the game, whereas someones complete disregard to structure could very well destroy anothers enjoyment of the game.
It really seems that this discussion has come up many times in my time on the forums and it really seems that many people on one side come from a rigid angle of real life economics. As the opposing viewpoint seems to one of philosopical reason for ones enjoyment. I can see angles from both viewpoints. Time is money, how one spends their time comes from personal preference. Let the dice land as they do. I have some ideas of where they will land but that will take time.
I for one first tried my hands at production by buying all the projectile BPO's. After the first batch I LMAO and said their is no way that this is worth my time. The improtant word there is "my".
Slade
EDIT: To address the OP. At this point in time I do not rig my Rifters. I do not have alot of time online so isk is of the utmost importance to me so to spend the isk at this point on a rig for a ship that is going to go pop is not worth the risk.
Maybe later when I am proficient at specific roled ships.
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Joe Starbreaker
Smoking Hillbillys Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.05.05 15:44:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Candice Bormardin The real issue is and has always been using the English Language accurately.
Everybody else agrees, you're using it wrong. As I said, read a BOOK instead of trolling the forums.
---------------- [insert signature here] |
Candice Bormardin
Caldari Jouvulen Enterprises Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 16:18:00 -
[84]
Suppose ... for the sake of argument - that you were getting paid to play the game in ISK.
Now ... suppose you there were two types of Asteroid Belts - one in which you had to pay a fee to mine and one in which you did not.
When you mined in an asteroid belt where you had to pay a fee - you would have to invest a certain amount of time and the ISK you were being paid to mine PLUS you would have to pay a fee.
When you mined in an asteroid belt where you did not have to pay a fee - you would still have to invest a certain amount of time and the ISK you were being paid to mine - but - your mining activities would be free.
So - why is it - that in a game where you are NOT being paid to play AND there is no charge for you to mine - that the asteroids aren't free?
If you pay for ore on the market - you have paid for your ore. If you mine the ore - you haven't paid for it - thus the ore is free.
While there may be a value to something such as your time - that doesn't mean you have to pay for it if you are not being charged.
It doesn't matter if the asteroids have value. It doesn't matter if your time has value. It doesn't matter what else is done or not done.
If you don't pay for the asteroids - they are free.
There may well be other considerations but - if you are not paying for the asteroids - they are free.
If you WERE paying for the asteroids - then the price you had to pay for them would be an ADDITION to any other costs - but since you ARE NOT paying for the Asteroids - they themselves are free.
As to time being money - AGAIN - if you aren't being paid - you aren't getting any money. If you took time off from work - where you were getting paid - to do something THEN there would be a monetary cost for that activity. BUT - if you do it on a weekend - where you are NOT getting paid - THERE IS NO MONETARY COST.
Time is not money.
Time is time.
Money is money.
If you are getting paid for your time - then you get some money for your time. If you are NOT getting paid for your time - then you are NOT getting some money for your time.
This doesn't mean that time doesn't have value - time can have a value more precious than money - but it does mean that one is not the other.
If you were in the Armed Forces - where you get a certain amount of money per month and are on call 24/7 then you MIGHT be able to equate the time you spent there to the money you earned. However, even here - all you are doing is comparing the money you got to the time you spent. If you are a different rank - then - you got paid MORE money so they would be relative measures with the time of a Major NOT equal to the time of a Private.
Another way of looking at it:
If Time = Money, then you should be able to exchange one for the other.
I.E. If Time = Money Then Money = Time.
If you are paid $20/Hr. then working AN HOUR OF YOUR LIFE will earn you $20.
If you have $20 can you buy back an hour of your life? No. That hour has gone forever.
At the end of their lives - many a rich man would gladly give all the money they had for just a few more hours of time - but they aren't going to get it.
All of which has nothing to do with the fact that if you don't pay for them - the rocks are free.
All of which I have said in this thread multiple times.
NOTHING anyone else has posted has changed the validity of those statements.
Stop seeing everything through a spreadsheet and just read the words.
If you don't pay for them the rocks are free.
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Candice Bormardin
Caldari Jouvulen Enterprises Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 16:46:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Candice Bormardin The real issue is and has always been using the English Language accurately.
Everybody else agrees, you're using it wrong. As I said, read a BOOK instead of trolling the forums.
Everybody does not agree. Those who have used their brains to read what I have said have come to an understanding of it. Those who are to caught up in their own preconceptions to see past the nose on their face - have not.
No Joe - it is YOU who are using the language inaccurately and YOU who are the troll.
I have had an intelligent discussion with some people in this thread - but since your first posts you have only stopped by to make short, smart assed remarks. Your behavior here is that of a troll - mine is not.
I have read the links posted by others in this thread and understand the points they were trying to make - and - some where in the past - I have probably taken an economics class. I've also had many a long discussion over a few mugs of beer with a group of friends that included an economics major. I don't need to read any more to understand the points of the people posting against me in this thread. I understand exactly what they are saying - I'm just pointing out that none of what they are saying matters.
Though I have commented on some of the economics statements made by people - this has never been an economics issue - this has always been a language issue.
I point out an error in the accurate use of the English language - and people keep coming up with discussions of Economics.
Why don't YOU apply Occam's razor and note that the simplest explanation here is to stop reading things into what someone is saying and just read the words.
If YOU don't have anything different to say than you've said in your last several posts - all of which were smart assed - then why don't YOU stop trolling and go read a book - specifically a book NOT on economics. Perhaps a greater familiarity with general reading would let you learn to read what is said instead of filter what you're reading through your own preconceptions of what you expect to be said.
I have been repeating myself - but only in response to continuing posts from other people - though some of them seem to have turned to trolling the way you have.
Where someone has made an intelligent comment I've tried to respond intelligently but for the most part I haven't had to much to say to people only interested in making smart ass remarks.
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Billy Sastard
Amarr Life. Universe. Everything. Wrath.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 17:30:00 -
[86]
Please guys, stop feeding the troll.
Candice is only here to argue semantics.
Candice's point is, yea the rocks are 'free', even tho they have a definite value, they are 'free' to take. That is the point that her whole argument hinges on, and since technically she is right, she is going to hammer away with her lengthy well worded posts while chuckling about all the people getting red in the face when they read them. -=^=-
My views do not represent my alliance. TBH, my posts do not even represent my own views...I am posting while asleep. |
Joe Starbreaker
Smoking Hillbillys Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.05.05 19:06:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Billy Sastard Please guys, stop feeding the troll.
Yes, I've detected that she's a troll... but she's such an inefficient one! The point of trolling is that you're supposed to spend minimal effort and get lots of other people to waste their time replying. Candice is apparently still a newbie at trolling -- she must have spent hours on these B.S. posts she writes in response to our little short ones.
---------------- [insert signature here] |
Candice Bormardin
Caldari Jouvulen Enterprises Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 20:33:00 -
[88]
Ah yes.
The posting board dynamic.
Some posters don't get another's point so they argue.
Because they didn't get the point in the first place - they lose.
They then begin to troll since they certainly can't admit that they lost the argument.
The person they are trolling calls them on it.
They then call the person they are trolling a troll.
Happens every time.
Congratulations guys - you're right on track - and what a well worn track it is.
You all have a nice day now.
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Dreadchain
Gallente PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.05.06 04:10:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Dreadchain on 06/05/2008 04:11:34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXp_jFvlfMA
Crystal w...Veldspar and you!
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Baka Lakadaka
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.06 06:33:00 -
[90]
Ummmmm!! Anyway....don't put rigs into tech 1 frigates, rigs are too expensive to put into such cheap ships.
______________________ Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University. |
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