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Garat Mant
Minmatar Moons of Pluto
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Posted - 2008.04.29 16:08:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Garat Mant on 29/04/2008 16:13:18 Edited by: Garat Mant on 29/04/2008 16:11:21
- Scammer asks for help completing a mission
- Invites mark to gang
- Mark in warp inbound, scammer invites a war target to gang
- Mark now a viable war target for nearby at-war gankers
- Mark's PvE fitted ship destroyed quickly
- Expensive faction modules looted and sold
Would you fix the above situation? If so, how?
Edit: post was blank at first. --
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.04.29 16:11:00 -
[2]
It's gonna be fairly hard to fix.
I wouldn't mind having it fixed. But i really can't come up with a creative idea, which removes the loophole, without removing a feature of the gang system.
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Nickaelhoop
Minmatar AlphaGV Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.29 16:16:00 -
[3]
To be totally honest it isn't our job to come up with solutions to problems. I think that is what people fail to realise, that is CCP's job.
The CSM is only there to act as a bridge between the community and CCP, we only report on what people want to fix or have looked at and then CCP developers look into the problem and find a creative solution that will have the least detrimental impact on all of us.
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Demos Colodan
101st Space Brigade - Wings of Destiny Utterly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.04.29 16:21:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Nickaelhoop To be totally honest it isn't our job to come up with solutions to problems. I think that is what people fail to realise, that is CCP's job.
The CSM is only there to act as a bridge between the community and CCP, we only report on what people want to fix or have looked at and then CCP developers look into the problem and find a creative solution that will have the least detrimental impact on all of us.
Complete consent!
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.29 16:32:00 -
[5]
Originally by: LaVista Vista It's gonna be fairly hard to fix.
I wouldn't mind having it fixed. But i really can't come up with a creative idea, which removes the loophole, without removing a feature of the gang system.
Addendum: Without removing a feature of the gang system intended to prevent abuse in other ways that would likely be more severe than the one currently being used.
Especially when it has a very easy answer on the part of the mark. Don't respond to cries for help without collateral equal to the value of your ship unless you know and trust the person.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Arithron
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Posted - 2008.04.29 18:57:00 -
[6]
There is a famous saying that goes something like:
There is a sucker born every minute...
There is an easy way to stop this happening....for players to wise up a little and stop complaining when they do something stupid. Luckily, they get to learn from their mistakes....
Take care, Bruce Hansen |
MongWen
Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.04.29 19:08:00 -
[7]
I donĘt want to remove it, though I am probably going to be hated for thisą
When some one is ganged (after the mark) that has a active war going on, a warning is sent to everyone in gang a warning that states that there is a person that has joined with a active war. (just thrown out there)
Though the best way to donĘt help strangers or people you donĘt trust.
------------------------- Vote MongWen For The CMS. [Campaign Site]
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Daveydweeb
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.29 21:21:00 -
[8]
I don't think you can reconcile an attempt to fix this scam with CCP's established attitude that EVE should be a brutal game that emphasises shrewdness. CCP has previously publicised -- hell, glorified -- the actions of scammers such as the GHSC, and this really is an example of exactly the same policy.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information
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Posted - 2008.04.29 23:17:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Nickaelhoop To be totally honest it isn't our job to come up with solutions to problems. I think that is what people fail to realise, that is CCP's job.
The CSM is only there to act as a bridge between the community and CCP, we only report on what people want to fix or have looked at and then CCP developers look into the problem and find a creative solution that will have the least detrimental impact on all of us.
I disagree with Nikaelhoop. It may be CCP's job to fix it, but it's the job of CSM to present the player bases arguments for, and suggestions how, to fix issues.
I would support fixing it, because the war-dec mechanic for gangs is to enable consensual participation in other corp/alliance wars by joining gangs at war, it is not intended to trap and kill new players of EvE.
This is evident in the facts that: - A warning message is displayed to new players on joining such a gang - Notification given to gang-members when a new war-deced player joins the gang
Joining a war-dec pilot to gang while someone is in warp is deliberate abuse of this mechanic.
How to fix it? It might be possible along the lines of only enabling players in NPC corps to join gangs with other players in NPC corps - which in itself has consequences for new player experience that require evaluation.
≡v≡ Strategic Maps now in Eve-Online Store |
Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.30 00:11:00 -
[10]
Fixing the lofty scam is one of the core issues of my campaign.
Why? Because this is an MMO, and in an MMO you should be able to team up with others without such an extreme risk of them destroying your assets. It bothers me a lot that I cannot go help noobs, because most of the time, the people asking for help just want to gank your ship.
Possible fix would be a 30 second delay after a war target enters gang before neutrals become a viable war target, unless they activate modules, so they have time to leave the gang.
- I LOVE PVPers I HATE griefers
Consider voting for me in the CSM elections. You are invited to look at my campaign website, where more information is available |
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MongWen
Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.04.30 00:12:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Serenity Steele
- Notification given to gang-members when a new war-deced player joins the gang
It is a long time since I used this tactic (against farmers), and I do not believe that members of the gang gets a warning message if they are in the gang. Iirc only the person that does inviting (not the self invite) those to the gang gets the warning message.
Though I think it is a step in the right direction when it comes to this tactic.
------------------------- Vote MongWen For The CMS. [Campaign Site]
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Pizi
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.30 08:18:00 -
[12]
its easy to fix
if the wardeced member joins make a popup stating it and if you decline either cant join or you are dropped from the gang, no agression takes place _______________________________________________ Mining Crystal II BPC Pricelist EVEpedia[Deutsch]
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Tradesman Mcgee
Caldari Derek Knows Us
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Posted - 2008.04.30 10:19:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Pizi its easy to fix
if the wardeced member joins make a popup stating it and if you decline either cant join or you are dropped from the gang, no agression takes place
Simple solution, however, this would HAVE to be limited to ONLY work in highsec, or it will be a pain in the butt for real pvp in 0.0, where you often have gangs where different players are in different wars etc :) -------------------------- Research & Trade |
Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 10:44:00 -
[14]
Simplest solution is to just allow unlimited pew pew between gang members. No more false sense of security, no more accidents with concord in gangs in empire.
You want ME for the CSM!
There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.30 11:04:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Serenity Steele ...because the war-dec mechanic for gangs is to enable consensual participation in other corp/alliance wars by joining gangs at war...
Wrong.
People in your gang that are not actively at war cannot shoot until (key word: UNTIL) they have been shot.
So if your war targets are paying attention it does absolutely no good to you.
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Waterfowl Democracy
The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.30 11:15:00 -
[16]
Easy solution. If you don't trust them then you form the gang and invite them. Then they can't invite their wardecced friend.
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Cautet
Precision Engineering Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.30 11:40:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Cautet on 30/04/2008 11:42:04 Edited by: Cautet on 30/04/2008 11:41:55 Please no more popups!!!!
I know you are all aspiring beaurocrats but theres already too many popups in the game. People turn them off because popups get you killed more than anything else. And it's really annoying after clearing cache to have to turn them all off again.
If you want to do anything to this feature, then change the whole way that agression and wardecs work in highsec. You all state you don't want to change anything, but it's hardly the only feature about agression and wardecs that doesn't work. Another one would be repping someone in a wardec which does not flag up as an act of agression (in terms of Concording) but rather just gives the other side an oppurtunity to shoot you. Also, the flagging of agression doesn't always show up clearly.
Simple solution would be shooting someone in a wardec does not cause gang aggression.
Please all your applicants remove popups don't tell CCP we want more! [/url] |
Zikka
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.30 12:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: MongWen I donĘt want to remove it, though I am probably going to be hated for thisą
When some one is ganged (after the mark) that has a active war going on, a warning is sent to everyone in gang a warning that states that there is a person that has joined with a active war. (just thrown out there)
Though the best way to donĘt help strangers or people you donĘt trust.
Wrong. Go read the step by step instructions again and you might see what you missed.
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Kehmor
Caldari PAK
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Posted - 2008.04.30 13:14:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Fixing the lofty scam is one of the core issues of my campaign.
Why? Because this is an MMO, and in an MMO you should be able to team up with others without such an extreme risk of them destroying your assets. It bothers me a lot that I cannot go help noobs, because most of the time, the people asking for help just want to gank your ship.
Possible fix would be a 30 second delay after a war target enters gang before neutrals become a viable war target, unless they activate modules, so they have time to leave the gang.
This is an MMO and as such has a right to be different from other MMO's. Are you also suggesting that corp members should not be able to shoot each other freely? Part of the wonder of eve is having to work out for yourself who you can trust and indeed always having the option of betraying this trust.
While the lofty scam is a questionable mechanic, one that I have no problem with but would have no real issue with should it be removed, it is your attitude in general that concerns me. I am not sure you are even playing the right MMO, and much less sure that you are in a position to represent it. Or have I misunderstood? Violence isn't the answer, it is the question. The answer is yes. |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.04.30 15:40:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Garat Mant Edited by: Garat Mant on 29/04/2008 16:13:18 Edited by: Garat Mant on 29/04/2008 16:11:21
- Scammer asks for help completing a mission
- Invites mark to gang
- Mark in warp inbound, scammer invites a war target to gang
- Mark now a viable war target for nearby at-war gankers
- Mark's PvE fitted ship destroyed quickly
- Expensive faction modules looted and sold
Would you fix the above situation? If so, how?
Edit: post was blank at first.
Okay, the obvious "fix" is adding a little check box to the options screen that says "automatically leave fleet if anyone is at war with it." (and having the client configured to auto leave fleet if anybody from a corporation/alliance at war joins).
Mission-runners and people just looking for company and cooperation running hisec missions wouldn't have to be paranoid about gang invites and joining up with others.
Pvp'ers and war-fighters could just leave it unchecked and not have their gameplay hindered.
***
Thats the "fix".
The deeper issue is whether we actually want that fix because Eve is supposed to be a brutal and dark game of betrayal and intrigue and trust and reputation. Its a trick that plays on credibility and scams people into doing something dangerous with people they don't really know. Maybe this is actually a lesson that Eve should be teaching? I mean Eve market's itself on being a grim environment - and we all know enough in reality that we probably shouldn't be walking down dark alleys on the bad side of town with people we don't know who want to show us "something special."
On balance though I'm persuaded that the nature of this "scam" - waiting until the mark is in warp before inviting a war-flagged patsy into gang does deserve some counter-measure because there always should be an option of escape. + Eve is a social game as well, and I think a scam like this can damage that if nobody can ever trust anybody to team up with and do missions.
I remember my own first few weeks in Eve and meeting random people while out shooting serpentis in Fountain region and ganging up with strangers to enjoy the game with. It felt good, felt social, helped demonstrate that not everyone in Eve is a murderous bad-guy out to get you.
So on balance and on the grounds that I wouldn't like to see all ad-hoc gang invites from "friendly" mission running contacts being viewed with cyncism and distrust, I'd be in-favour of the "fix" above and sorting out this problem.
If the scammers could talk the victim into unchecking the "auto leave war-flagged gang" option ... lol tbh, in that case I'd have much less sympathy.
CSM Election Manifesto 2008 |
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MongWen
Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.04.30 16:28:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Zikka
Originally by: MongWen I donĘt want to remove it, though I am probably going to be hated for thisą
When some one is ganged (after the mark) that has a active war going on, a warning is sent to everyone in gang a warning that states that there is a person that has joined with a active war. (just thrown out there)
Though the best way to donĘt help strangers or people you donĘt trust.
Wrong. Go read the step by step instructions again and you might see what you missed.
Hmm ok, let me out that idea in the form of the OP so that You understand it.
- Scammer asks for help completing a mission.
- Invites mark to gang (Where the mark gets the warning if there is anyone currently in the gang that has an active war dec.).
- Mark in warp inbound, scammer invites a war target to gang.
- Everyone in the gang gets a warning (visual or that annoying popup)
The mark then has a choice of
- Stay in the gang
- Leave the gang asap
- Mark now a viable war target for nearby at-war gankers
- Mark's PvE fitted ship destroyed quickly
- Expensive faction modules looted and sold
and the question of the OP is:
Originally by: Garat Mant
Would you fix the above situation? If so, how?
At the first question i say that i dont want to change it (my own personal opinion).
and i desided to awnser the second one regardless of my personal view, with an idea that may or may not work.
I am still wrong or is it you that is wrong that i am wrong?
------------------------- Vote MongWen For The CMS. [Campaign Site]
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Max Torps
Gallente eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.30 16:45:00 -
[22]
I have to agree with Jade. I also think that the fix proposed is a pretty damn good one.
The lofty scam has been around a while now and must surely be a reason for some trial players or new players going. There are possibly other ways to deal with it that may be less popular and alter the game more drastically. The easiest route is sometimes the best and this is a good one.
This also keeps the harsh mistress of Eve happy.
EvE blogspace, free! Max Torps CSM Candidate |
Dav Varan
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Posted - 2008.04.30 17:23:00 -
[23]
Fixes.
1)a. Have a war flag on a gang so that it is either war flagged or not. b. If the first player invited or the initiator is at war then the gang is war flagged c. Only players NOT at war can be invited to a non war gang.
2) Change the flagging rights so that gang members dont get flagged just for being in a gang. ( after all the corp at war does not get flagged to the gang member so its a bit one sided atm ) Gang members should only pick up war flags for aiding a warring party.
3) Add a function to "Broadcast location" to a non ganged member so they can warp to you. multiplayer missions without gangs.
4) Add a function to "Broadcast S.O.S. Message" all players in local can lock on and warp to.
There you go 4 solutions to the "lofty" problem.
\discuss |
Goodwin
Caldari Brother Theo's Monastery
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Posted - 2008.05.03 14:45:00 -
[24]
Unfortunately treachery is based in reality. Tricking an opponent, while dishonest, is well within the bounds of warfare. Certainly it is a pain the backside. However, I agree with the consensus... Unless you know the person or trust them. Not a good plan to run to someone crying wolf. Stick to assisting corp-mates or intra-Alliance parties. |
Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.07 07:48:00 -
[25]
Scams are part of what makes Eve, Eve. I think it would be a shame to have scamming opportunities removed from the game altogether by way of a change of mechanics. However, at the same time, simply encouraging people to be less stupid will only get you so far as well.
I'd suggest simply making the gang invite message more clear about warning people that they can be vulnerable to such scams, keeping the responsibility with the player to read it or not.
/Ben
Ben Derindar: Eve CSM candidate
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.05.07 09:25:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 07/05/2008 09:25:00 well, a warning does pop up. However, you can skip this warning if you start gang with a non-war corp and the npc corp invites warring people into gang. Kinda defeats the purpose of the warning popup then
Solution is pretty easy. So easy in fact, that people will be slapping their heads. Just have the war mechanic ignore the gang status. So a logistics pilot can still get agressed if they help wardec'ed people, but those who do not get a warning pop up do not. |
Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.07 10:09:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lord WarATron well, a warning does pop up. However, you can skip this warning if you start gang with a non-war corp and the npc corp invites warring people into gang. Kinda defeats the purpose of the warning popup then
To clarify, I was suggesting that the pop-up would specifically explain the possibility that, while they may or may not be war issues with the people currently in the gang, the leader reserves the right to invite others into the gang after you, that could lead to you becoming a war target.
/Ben
Ben Derindar: Eve CSM candidate
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