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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.05.02 09:18:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Cutter Isaacson Virtually everyone in this thread and the others like it need to take a step back and look at their behaviour. I am appalled at the levels to which some of you have sunk, Pro-BACONites and anti-BACONites alike.
Those of you who have resorted to personal insults are a disgrace to this game and to yourselves. CCP will be removing EVERYONE's ability to use the log-server data soon and then hopefully this charade can end. What is the point in pointing fingers, laying blame and attacking peoples social, moral and personal ethics when discussing programs like this or any other?
Whats done is done and can't be undone, and if no serious discussion can be held on this matter then I respectfully suggest it be left alone. I personally am neither pro nor anti-bacon, so there is no point in arguing about it with me as I do not care either way. All I care about is seeing people atleast try and keep a sembelance of common courtesy on these forums.
Calling 'em as I see 'em. The need for reasoned arguing seized when CCP made their verdict about this program. Now we're just busting cheaters.
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Navtiqes
Noob Mercs
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Posted - 2008.05.02 11:42:00 -
[62]
I think the best fights are against people who are prepared, so it doesn't bother me that Bacon in its vanilla form might be used against me. The macro intell gathering it can be rigged to do is seriously uncool though. It's up there with wallhacks and aimbots in FPS games and maphacks in RTS.
I think it's weak of CCP not to take a stance with 3rd party programs. They should either allow all of them or none of them.
(A sith deals in absolutes ) |
NightF0x
Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders
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Posted - 2008.05.02 14:08:00 -
[63]
You can't have a blanket statement as '3rd party programs are banned' because it is counter intuitive. Now 3rd party programs that interact with the client is another story and most, if not all, of them are banned. BACON straddles the line by not using the actual client to gather details but it still gives the user instantaneous feedback that gives the player the upper hand.
Ignore the fact that BACON informs you about 5 seconds before the enemy pops up on the local listàyou canÆt tell me that if you are ratting in 0.0 and an enemy pops up in local that BACON doesnÆt give you an advantage. How many times have you been focused on keeping up your tank or watching the market or something else that distracts you from focusing 100% of your time on the local channel? It happens quite a bit, where you are distracted and an enemy pops into your system. By having the alarm, you can drop your guard and just wait for the beep. ItÆs a cheap way to stay safe in 0.0, low-sec or in high sec while at war.
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Schani Kratnorr
x13
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Posted - 2008.05.02 14:25:00 -
[64]
I dont give a rats arse if CCP endorse a particular 3rd party tool or not. Gaining an unfair advantage over your fellow gamers is cheating and no amount of posts from anyone (not even a GM) will change that.
If CCP does not reverse it's attitude towards the logserver, then more tools will appear. Logserver is a tool for bughunting and not actual game play. It should never run during regular game-sessions and anyone arguing anything else is wrong - and they know it.
If CCP wanted a player-in-local alert, then they would include one in the client.
I am Gemeni, I have spoken! |
Dirtee Girl
Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.05.02 16:40:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Dirtee Girl on 02/05/2008 16:40:43
Originally by: Schani Kratnorr I dont give a rats arse if CCP endorse a particular 3rd party tool or not. Gaining an unfair advantage over your fellow gamers is cheating and no amount of posts from anyone (not even a GM) will change that.
If CCP does not reverse it's attitude towards the logserver, then more tools will appear. Logserver is a tool for bughunting and not actual game play. It should never run during regular game-sessions and anyone arguing anything else is wrong - and they know it.
If CCP wanted a player-in-local alert, then they would include one in the client.
I am Gemeni, I have spoken!
100% agreed
however i must point out that whoever created bacon did what was natural they saw a possibility within the structure of eve and created a tool that worked . however ccp having opened the door to this tool and similar by using logserver are in the end responsible for the outcome . you can't leave the door to the bank unlocked and just expect it will be ok .
Originally by: gm grimmi
There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
when i read that i was thinking more about what effect it would have on the game not the eula or some such . was kinda shocked when grimmi said that . |
NightmareX
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.05.02 16:41:00 -
[66]
Edited by: NightmareX on 02/05/2008 16:45:15 Wow, i'm amazed that some single members of an alliance have the balls to post on this forum and support the BEACON, and then destroy the WHOLE reputation to the whole alliance by supporting that application. It's amazing. Seriously.
EVERY alliance should kick and make everyone KOS right after someone if found to use that program, you wont even get a warnining before your killed on sight and kicked.
And thanks for letting me know on what alliances that really have destroyed it's reputation by allowing the BEACON to be used. |
Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.02 17:42:00 -
[67]
Here we are, almost two weeks from launch, and I'm still tasting delicious griefer/pirate/ganker tears. Please guys, moar drama. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.02 18:01:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Reuser Here we are, almost two weeks from launch, and I'm still tasting delicious griefer/pirate/ganker tears. Please guys, moar drama.
Don't worry. Drama's coming your way soon enough. |
Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.02 18:21:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Malcanis Don't worry. Drama's coming your way soon enough.
Will you be bringing a llama? If not, we're not interested.
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NightmareX
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.05.02 18:42:00 -
[70]
Edited by: NightmareX on 02/05/2008 18:44:12
Originally by: Reuser Here we are, almost two weeks from launch, and I'm still tasting delicious griefer/pirate/ganker tears. Please guys, moar drama.
And here we are with some of the biggest cry babies/ carebears in EVE who don't have the balls to play EVE without a 3rd party app that help you with making a sound when someone enters local, wow talk about lazy bears who are to lazy to check local.
I thought that 3rd party apps that helps you with something ingame and that helps you with an advantage over others ingame was forbidden in EVE. |
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Face Lifter
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Posted - 2008.05.02 18:57:00 -
[71]
I think the whole BACON deal underscores the key problems with local chat.
It's not supposed to work that way. It's wrong, it's bad design, and those who put interest of the game idea above their personal interests are rightfully outraged.
BACON provides more reasons to nerf local as intelligence tool. |
Franco Caruso
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Posted - 2008.05.02 20:00:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Franco Caruso on 02/05/2008 20:02:44 Everybody is missing a very important point here ( are a few actually )
Goons had/have it, or a version of it, centralized ( would be st00pid thinking that they haven't by now )
Releasing the source code was a ballsy move. Problem is that with releasing the source and bringing attention to BACON itself the floodgates have opened and how many players you think have tweaked it by now to fit THEIR needs ? What other information can be obtained using the logserver and how could it be exploited ? That question sure has come up and some have gone out ( or in, if you prefer ) to find the answer.
But, releasing it was the ONLY move possible to force CCP into a corner and rethink the logserver.
Logserver has been around since day one and during the days when CCP was still small it was a goldmine for them. These days with CCP being 250+ strong, you can take it out the game entirely. But, removing it removes also the documentation and requirements to file a reproducable bugreport.
IMHO it's a fidgly situation for CCP and whoever has to make the decission to leave it in, take it out or simply make the information unreadable ( how about obtaining an key/encryption key on startup that encrypts the output and CCP based on the key can decrypt and read information, just an idea ).
FC
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Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.05.02 20:42:00 -
[73]
Quote: Goons had/have it, or a version of it, centralized ( would be st00pid thinking that they haven't by now )
I don't know if they have an adapted version of BACON itself, but I can confirm that the image that purports to describe a Goon-made local watcher is fake. Although that a centralized version can be created is unquestionable. In fact, that it will be created is unquestionable, because I will do so myself if nobody else does and BACON does not become against the EULA.
Anyway, I personally don't support this whole disgracing-alliance thing. I suppose you can compare it with logoffski, X alliance uses BACON Y alliance logoffskis. But I think that BACON-like programs could potentially lead to much more interesting gang warfare, if a FC was able to see the enemy and divide his forces based on their location. It would also support polices like NRDS: if you had every person in friendly space running a central-BACON, you could find reds and kill them, allowing you to keep a stable "empire" without the anarchy of NBSI.
Just some thoughts. |
White Ronin
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Posted - 2008.05.02 20:58:00 -
[74]
3 pages of off-topic posts. Nice but not good enough.
AGAIN I ASK WHY CCP IS AGAINST BACON NOW THAT IT IS OPEN TO EVERYONE WHEN THEY HAD NO PROBLEM WITH IT WHEN THESE TYPES OF PROGRAMS WERE ONLY USED BY LARGE CORPERATIONS AND ALLIENCES... WHICH THEY THEMSELVES HAVES SAID THEY KNEW ABOUT FOR SOME TIME?
WHY IS THERE A "PRIVILAGED" CLASS OF PLAYER IN EVE?
ARENT PVP GAMES SUPPOSED TO PRESENT A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD TO ALLOW FOR FAIR COMPETITION BETWEEN PLAYERS?
There is no differance between what ccp is doin now and playing monopoly and the banker slips some players more money under the table.
Bacon is not cheating.
Allowing only some privileged to use it and trying to take it out of use when other players use it IS cheating.
Plain and simple. |
Kvirie
Caldari Children of the Wind
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Posted - 2008.05.02 21:03:00 -
[75]
Originally by: White Ronin AGAIN I ASK WHY CCP IS AGAINST BACON NOW THAT IT IS OPEN TO EVERYONE WHEN THEY HAD NO PROBLEM WITH IT WHEN THESE TYPES OF PROGRAMS WERE ONLY USED BY LARGE CORPERATIONS AND ALLIENCES... WHICH THEY THEMSELVES HAVES SAID THEY KNEW ABOUT FOR SOME TIME?
Can you please refer me to the post where CCP said they were aware of other alliances using it and were ok with it? All I am able to find is one saying they are aware other alliances use programs like it, and are working to change logserver to prevent it from working in the future.
Also, once they do effectively kill the BACON type programs with logserver changes, I wonder how big the waves will be when people who rely on BACON come crashing down. |
Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.02 21:43:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Kvirie Also, once they do effectively kill the BACON type programs with logserver changes, I wonder how big the waves will be when people who rely on BACON come crashing down.
We'll just go back to playing EVE the way it's made to be played. Sound off, local detached, squinting at that local for any movement, so we can kill or be killed. Because that's really what EVE is about. Your acumen at staring at local.
I, for one, am glad that BACON is out, and in the end, either CCP will level the playing field by changing the log server or Gunfleet did, by releasing and open sourcing the program. No more ignoring the problem, no more selected alliances using the tool in secrecy.
The rest of this is just lazy PVP'rs worried they are going to lose kills. Smart PVP players have already figured out how to game BACON users. For instance, I saw a group of folks logging a Broadsword off at the station, and then leaving the system. 20 minutes later, they jumped in/logged in and killed people running for the station trapped in their bubble. Kill city.
So. Quit whining, the solution is here - one way or another. As for the other... Adapt or die. |
Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.02 21:54:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Reuser on 02/05/2008 21:54:12
Originally by: Cori4n Although that a centralized version can be created is unquestionable. In fact, that it will be created is unquestionable, because I will do so myself if nobody else does and BACON does not become against the EULA.
To be clear, the server reporting part of the client is what CCP asked us to remove in our initial release. We still have archived copies up, to defend Gunfleet against the "you used to do x, y and z" attack, but the server reporting is definitely something CCP has actively asked to be removed from shipping product.
If this is something you would like to develop, I urge you in the strongest possible terms to discuss it directly with CCP before you begin development.
tl;dr We made server reporting. We removed it. CCP asked us to.
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NightF0x
Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders
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Posted - 2008.05.02 23:26:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Reuser Edited by: Reuser on 02/05/2008 21:54:12
Originally by: Cori4n Although that a centralized version can be created is unquestionable. In fact, that it will be created is unquestionable, because I will do so myself if nobody else does and BACON does not become against the EULA.
To be clear, the server reporting part of the client is what CCP asked us to remove in our initial release. We still have archived copies up, to defend Gunfleet against the "you used to do x, y and z" attack, but the server reporting is definitely something CCP has actively asked to be removed from shipping product.
If this is something you would like to develop, I urge you in the strongest possible terms to discuss it directly with CCP before you begin development.
tl;dr We made server reporting. We removed it. CCP asked us to.
And you can't tell us that HYDRA isn't using the reporting function in their personal BACON clients. |
Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.03 00:36:00 -
[79]
Originally by: NightF0x And you can't tell us that HYDRA isn't using the reporting function in their personal BACON clients.
I need to confirm some minor details with Cesar, but this is my understanding. We tested BACON with HYDRA using "Click-Once" only. We released the stand-alone version AFTER launch. The significance of this is that "Click-Once" auto-updates on each run. So HYDRA is using the same BACON as everyone else.
It is possible that there are clients out there transmitting information, but to the best of my knowledge, we are not listening. I will confirm that with Cesar as soon as he gets on.
So no. HYDRA is NOT using the reporting function.
Can we back off of the unfounded accusations and innuendo please? Gunfleet has been honest and transparent with the community and CCP since well before launch. We want a level playing field as much or more than anyone else.
The good thing is, no matter what, going forward, the problem will be solved. Some combination of three things will happen going forward:
- CCP will solve the problem by changing the log server, and BACON and other tools will stop working. The playing field is level.
- CCP does nothing. The playing field is level, as ANYONE can download BACON and the large alliances continue using their log tools.
- CCP declares BACON and programs like it non-EULA, but does not change the log server. Possibly the worst of all worlds, as the large alliances continue to use their log tools, and ethical developers, like Gunfleet, pull their tools. Not a level playing field.
Love it or hate it, that's the future of BACON, and tools like it.
The worst part about it is that the people who truly don't care about EVE never even logged in the forums to check. Their macros and bots tap directly into memory or emulate the log server. They're already breaking CCP's EULA, and they just don't care. Those are the people that are breaking EVE. Not Cesar Malari, bending over backwards to meet the will of CCP. And surely not the people who are willing to discuss things in the forums, in the open.
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Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.05.03 02:19:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Cori4n on 03/05/2008 02:19:31
Originally by: Reuser To be clear, the server reporting part of the client is what CCP asked us to remove in our initial release. We still have archived copies up, to defend Gunfleet against the "you used to do x, y and z" attack, but the server reporting is definitely something CCP has actively asked to be removed from shipping product.
Um, ha, you caught my bluster. I'm sure not starting a project related to this until its legality is at least decided one way or another, don't want to waste my time :p. But just sending the data is trivial, what I really meant by a "centralized version" is something that can take that raw data, and then display it on a nice interactive ombeve-like map for everyone to act on.
Which would, by the way, require getting who is already in local by asking the user to scroll through the list and checking what cached portraits the logserver checks for (unless there's an easier way). A pain and balance if I ever saw it.
But, I mean, that would be awesome. Don't tell me you've developed a mapping app already
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.03 02:36:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Cori4n
Um, ha, you caught my bluster. I'm sure not starting a project related to this until its legality is at least decided one way or another, don't want to waste my time :p. But just sending the data is trivial, what I really meant by a "centralized version" is something that can take that raw data, and then display it on a nice interactive ombeve-like map for everyone to act on.
Which would, by the way, require getting who is already in local by asking the user to scroll through the list and checking what cached portraits the logserver checks for (unless there's an easier way). A pain and balance if I ever saw it.
But, I mean, that would be awesome. Don't tell me you've developed a mapping app already
Mapping is a tough, tough problem. Programmatically, it's pretty easy to walk the tree and figure distances from here to there and everywhere. Making that into a visual representation that is human readable is harder, and represents real, money-making IP. Ask the folks at Eve Maps. It's hard to fold out a 3D space like EVE into a 2D map without human intervention. :)
That being said, it's about 30-45 minutes work to make a 3D map of a region into a 2D style human readable map. Take that as you will.
Remind me to tell you a story about a drunk guy named Wisdo some time... Or you might hear it somewhere else, soon...
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Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.05.03 03:09:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Cori4n on 03/05/2008 03:13:47 So, anyway, some people have been claiming that BACON gives alert about four to five seconds before you can see the person in local.
This would be one of the main reasons that I would dislike it.
So I decided to figure out whether this was really true, and I made a little movie about it.
http://www.evetube.com/index.php?playid=358
It hasn't been encoded yet right now but you can download it. It's a very short movie, only 9 seconds long.
On the left is EVE, and I have the local window open. On the right is the logserver.
The main event of the movie is that someone enters the system. At 4.5 seconds in, you can see the logserver announcing that he entered the system (a bunch of lines scroll down), and you can also see his name appear in the local channel.
At the same time.
So, whatever arguments may be made against BACON, unless my method of testing is wrong, it does not give any extra time advantage versus someone who is diligently watching the local channel.
TLDR: The 4-5 seconds warning is a lie |
Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.05.03 03:12:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Reuser Mapping is a tough, tough problem. Programmatically, it's pretty easy to walk the tree and figure distances from here to there and everywhere. Making that into a visual representation that is human readable is harder, and represents real, money-making IP. Ask the folks at Eve Maps. It's hard to fold out a 3D space like EVE into a 2D map without human intervention. :)
Luckily for me, someone named Ombey has already done all that work for me and it is possible to parse his 2d locations out from the pdf file. Although I can't get the dotted lines and stuff, I think if I actually made such an app, I could hardcode those myself, since most jumps can just be represented by lines (as is the map's design).
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.03 03:32:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Cori4n TLDR: The 4-5 seconds warning is a lie
Sir, I beg you, no verifiable information in this thread. Like source code and transparency, it will be ignored. |
NightF0x
Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders
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Posted - 2008.05.03 06:24:00 -
[85]
Reuser, HYDRA wasn't transparent with CCP from the beginning. HYDRA's initial thread only asked if the log server was off limits. No where did HYDRA ask for CCP's approval for the actual program, only if it violated the EULA to access the log server. Had HYDRA been up-front with CCP over what they were actually doing with said data then CCP's reaction may have been different. No one can say for sure but to say that HYDRA was up-front with CCP on what they were doing and that CCP was fine with it is complete BS. |
Digital Anarchist
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.05.03 07:11:00 -
[86]
Now that the cat is out of the bag...
Can CCP do anything to stop (read-only) client hacking?
Even if the log files are encrypted, the client's memory can still be accessed, along with all the information there. That info can be packaged and distributed to a server to construct real-time maps of player movements (and ships).
Example: an AFK cloaker sits outside enemy station. The overview is continually scraped from the client and sent to a central server. That is then combined with info from other AFK cloakers or local watchers.
This can be a serious mechanics failure, or opportunity, depending on the way you look at it.
Would we see Eve employ a technology like Cheating Death or VAC to stop clientside hacking, or would CCP embrace 3rd party apps and make interfaces to access them?
I'm not sure where to stand because I see advantages to both sides. On one hand, banning 3rd party apps that hack into the client would level the playing field and dismiss charges of cheating. On the other hand, allowing 3rd party apps to develop may increase the usefulness of the client itself (giving CCP more freedom to improve the game in other aspects).
In any societal environment you are going to see innovation and automation. In RL, there's usually no problem with that. One good aspect of it I can find is that CCP has to develop the game in ways that are not as easily exploited in this manner.
Two cents... |
Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.05.03 07:52:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Reuser Here we are, almost two weeks from launch, and I'm still going against CCP's wishes by supporting and even hosting this program. I feel so cool when I cheat.
Fixed
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NightF0x
Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders
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Posted - 2008.05.03 11:37:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Reuser Here we are, almost two weeks from launch, and I'm still going against CCP's wishes by supporting and even hosting this program. I feel so cool when I cheat.
Fixed
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Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.05.03 12:58:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Digital Anarchist Now that the cat is out of the bag...
Can CCP do anything to stop (read-only) client hacking?
No.
They can make it harder, but not stop it.
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Sothis Antares
PBA Corporation
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Posted - 2008.05.03 13:28:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Digital Anarchist That info can be packaged and distributed to a server to construct real-time maps of player movements (and ships).
i am currently working on this :) but for own fleet management, using the data sent by the ingame browser, so the player can decide to use it or not.
Linkage
still heavy under construction tho :) |
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