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John Eisenauge
Konstrukteure der Zukunft The Initiative.
0
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Posted - 2012.03.02 10:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
the big issue in eve is that a fleet with 10 people runs away if the see a fleet with 15 people. (fleet
config similar). Same problem with two equal fleets - one with 2 logis, the other without.
fleet A: 10x400 (volley) = 4000 fleet B: 5x400 = 2000 difference 100% like firing people
there should be a method that fleetnumbers about + / - 25% should not have this effect like it is now.
suggestion:
in life, the output of a group is limited by a logarithmic law. for example:
1 worker works with 100% 2 worker only with 2x 98%, 10 worker with 10x70%
the reason is the loss of human organisation
solution:
all damage/shield transfer on one vessel should be limited by a logarithmic function
fleet A: 10x400*0,72= 2880 fleet B: 5x400*0,83= 1660 difference: only 73%
this means: more outnumberes fleets will get into fight
side effect: firing on different targets gets more befenefit than all people firing on one target, so a
good fc and fleet organsisation will be a great advantage
log function: y=1,1 x log (10/ x^0,35) x... number firing people on vessel, y... reduction number
solo pvp: +10% 2--> 98% 20---> 60% 100-->33% 256--> 17%
(log function can be optimized I am sure) |
baltec1
754
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Posted - 2012.03.02 10:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
Get brave FCs. |
Jovan Geldon
SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353
357
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Posted - 2012.03.02 10:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
You are working uder the false assumption that every fight should be fair |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1664
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Posted - 2012.03.02 10:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
John Eisenauge wrote:two equal fleets - one with 2 logis, the other without. All your numbers are based on complete misunderstanding of what equal means, and what you are trying to change is the simple fact that the majority of people are risk averse cowards. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
John Eisenauge
Konstrukteure der Zukunft The Initiative.
0
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Posted - 2012.03.02 10:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
jovan - your are absolutley right ,-)
but i hate roaming hours and hours to find a appropriate fleet. "...fc ... **** this fleet is a little to big for us.. go safe..." |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
62
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Posted - 2012.03.02 11:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
the solution to OP's issue is colloquially referred to as "bubble" - its various variations do a very fine job of preventing outnumbered fleets from running away. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2278
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Posted - 2012.03.02 11:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lady Spank wrote:All your numbers are based on complete misunderstanding of what equal means, and what you are trying to change is the simple fact that the majority of people are risk averse cowards.
there is one hell of a difference between not being suicidal and being risk averse "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
2749
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Posted - 2012.03.02 11:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
would make suicide harder no?
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TheBlueMonkey
Natural Progression
80
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Posted - 2012.03.02 11:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
don't be a *****, problem solved.
Oh... or EWAR.... or logis... or a better understanding of the game... or an FC that knows what to punch first.
MOAR doesn't always mean better |
Herold Oldtimer
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
32
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Posted - 2012.03.02 11:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
Remove the fear of getting on someone elses kb, and remove the aversion to risk. Problem solved |
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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
579
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Posted - 2012.03.02 11:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
Better Solution:
Bring moar friends, train up logi pilots.
\o/
This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Terra Khashour
Death Wish. Ineluctable.
0
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Posted - 2012.03.02 11:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
John Eisenauge wrote:the big issue in eve is that a fleet with 10 people runs away if the see a fleet with 15-20 people. (fleet
config similar). Same problem with two equal fleets - one with 2 logis, the other without.
fleet A: 10x400 (volley) = 4000 fleet B: 5x400 = 2000 difference 100% like firing people
there should be a method that fleetnumbers about + / - 25% should not have this effect like it is now.
suggestion:
in life, the output of a group is limited by a logarithmic law. for example:
1 worker works with 100% 2 worker only with 2x 98%, 10 worker with 10x70%
the reason is the loss of human organisation
solution:
all damage/shield transfer on one vessel should be limited by a logarithmic function
fleet A: 10x400*0,72= 2880 fleet B: 5x400*0,83= 1660 difference: only 73%
this means: more outnumberes fleets will get into fight
side effect: firing on different targets gets more befenefit than all people firing on one target, so a
good fc and fleet organsisation will be a great advantage
log function: y=1,1 x log (10/ x^0,35) x... number firing people on vessel, y... reduction number
solo pvp: +10% 2--> 98% 20---> 60% 100-->33% 256--> 17%
(log function can be optimized I am sure)
M8, go play WoW they have some pvp areas there where is such scalling... tbh this is eve if u r km ***** thats your problem, runing is part of this game ...
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sakurako
The Circle G00DFELLAS
3
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Posted - 2012.03.02 13:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
people do fight out numbered all the time and alot of time they do die but when they fight with out fear of loss they can get some good kills
why on earth should there do method that limits the damage one group can do. |
Raiz Nhell
DEEP CORPS
26
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Posted - 2012.03.02 13:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
Why does it need to be fair... Screw fair...
If I'm outnumbered, out gunned and out commanded, I'm going to lose, I run, its my fault no one else's.... If I out gun, out number and out command I win
Stop complaining that you got beat and it's unfair... Learn and next time bring more, with better guns, better lead...
Natural selection doesn't stop at the keyboard... I'm so carebear my Pod bleeds rainbow...
Beers + nullsec + dodgy fit = Loss mail |
Mokokan
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
17
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Posted - 2012.03.02 15:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
John Eisenauge wrote:the big issue in eve is that a fleet with 10 people runs away if the see a fleet with 15-20 people. (fleet
config similar). Same problem with two equal fleets - one with 2 logis, the other without.
...............
(log function can be optimized I am sure)
The "big issue" is why do you want CCP's math to fight your battle? There are ways for a ten man fleet to fight a 20 man fleet, but geez, why on earth do you want the game to gimp the big fleet to make it happen? Why on earth would you want to penalize a group for bringing more numbers, organization or I.Q. ???? They should be rewarded for their efforts, not penalized.
If the "better" fleet wants to engage the "unwilling" small fleet, then they should be clever about forcing the fight, or go home empty handed! |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1077
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Posted - 2012.03.02 16:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
The art of applying your strengths against your opponents weakness is the very heart of combat, it always has been. Vast amounts of literature are devoted to the subject.
Numerical superiority is one such strength that your opononet is trying to negate using evasive tactics. Your task is to develop effective tactics to prevent him from doing this, so that you can leverage your advantage.
The diminishing returns that you describe already affect combat in this game in exactly the same way as they affect combat (or other interactions) in reality. Effective fleets minimize this loss, as is illustrated by the many fleets that have effectively trounced fleets much larger than themselves.
This is the very heart and soul of combat, and should not be masked by math equations.
If you wish to argue that even more tactical options should be available in game for those skilled enough to recognize and use them effectively, I "might" support that. But employing an artificial mechanic that negates the need for tactics is something I cannot support. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
413
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Posted - 2012.03.02 16:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
John Eisenauge wrote:"I knows something about mathes"
Yeah that's great. But, if this is some scientific observation you're stating here then wouldn't it already be applied in game and your advocating that it be applied is just "double dipping"?
Basically, what you're advocating is that smaller fleets while still out gunned even under the influence of your log functions might be snookered into fighting anyway under the guise of "We might make it".
Your logic also fails to account for more skilled and experienced fleets. I've been in fights where I've had fewer ships than the fleet I was fighting based purely on the fact that my guys had better skills. It was a stalemate, no losses either side and we went for 5 rounds. Can't say I do this often as it is very risky.
IMO, there's no need for this. If it's some natural "law" then it's already being applied even in game purely because there are human's playing the game. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
Stellar Vix
State War Academy Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.03.02 16:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
You have no idea how often I have to remind all of my rookies how a real FC would not do what I order them to do. Especially in unfair fights specifically designed to destroy my fleet becuase I saw the hostile scout several jumps back.
Tails down for this idea ladies and gentlemen.
-Vix
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Lin Fatale
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2012.03.02 17:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
everyone would fight, even outnumbered if you see a good chance to kill half of the enemy fleet It does not matter if you lose you complete fleet, the only point that matters is can my fleet kill a good portion of the enemy fleet - yes / no
without logis and similar configs, its a simple number game +/-25% fleetsize you can fight easily
the problem is when logis show up then there is a risk that you lose your whole fleet and dont kill anything and thats the point where the most ppl run
And think about, when is a fight over? the fight is over when you cannot break the enemy logi tank size does not matter 10vs10 or 500vs500
so i would more think into direction of nerf logis a bit - normal ships - xx% resis and +xx%hp - ceptors and commandships still with high resis, so they have a role and makes sense to field - boost RR --> RR is funny, every fleetmember has more to do then pres F1, and elite groups can saty elite with RRskils --> more explosions w/o logis
and forget about the troll **** get more dudes my 10man fleet with logi will own any 20man red fleet, cuz usualy 20 man fleets dont have logis |
Ptraci
StoneWall Metals Productions Bloodbound.
392
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Posted - 2012.03.04 00:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
You want to build into game mechanics something that is already built into human beings. Why should this be redundant?
Just because 25 people show up in local doesn't mean 25 people are coming after your 12 man fleet. Out of those 25 - 2 will have clicked the jump button instead of the warp button, 1 will warp to the wrong gate, 1 is too stoned/drunk to react in time, 2 will be shooting at the wrong targets, etc...
As you pointed out, inefficiency is already built into human beings there is no need to model it in the game. What you need, as someone pointed out earlier, is willingness to fight. But since most people are carebears or kill-mail whores (oh noes I might lose my shipzors!), ppl with even or inferior numbers are just going to run. All everyone wants is to gank, with 100% certain victory. This has turned EVE into the cesspool it currently is.
What CCP should do is hand over stargate control to the alliances that have SOV, and allow us to turn them off. That way you can jump in... but you can't jump out. THAT would be awesome :)
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2012.03.04 00:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:the solution to OP's issue is colloquially referred to as "bubble" - its various variations do a very fine job of preventing outnumbered fleets from running away.
I disagree and I fly bubblers all the time.
It is extremely easy to lock down a single target or a few targets with tackle. Scram + bubble or web + bubble and they aren't getting out anytime soon.
But try locking down a very common roaming group setup such as 10x BCs. If they jump into you they decloak 12-15km from your 20km bubble, very easy to get away.
If they are off a gate you can bubble them all sure, but you gotta get right up to their faces to bubble them so you get one 20km bubble and your light dictor is dead. MWD C/BC go 1,500-3,000 m/s so 20km means you tackle them for 10-15 seconds max? That won't cut it. Logi don't help much, for some reason light dictors didn't fill out the proper paperwork to get T2 resists and their base hp and pg don't cut it at all. Heavy dictors are too slow (-90% speed penalty, yay) and too expensive to spend on tackle.
So I argue that the role of group tackling is a sorely needed one. More bubble types would be nice, larger bubbles would be nice, a ship designed around locking down a group of enemies and living for more than 5 seconds would be nice. And I say this as someone who will die to what I propose many, many times. |
Suitonia
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
51
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Posted - 2012.03.04 01:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
You're assuming that eve fights are like pokemon battles where the fleets sit next to eachother and take it in turns to shoot. There are plenty of options you can use if you're outnumbered. |
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
343
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Posted - 2012.03.04 01:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
Lady Spank wrote:John Eisenauge wrote:two equal fleets - one with 2 logis, the other without. All your numbers are based on complete misunderstanding of what equal means, and what you are trying to change is the simple fact that the majority of people are risk averse cowards. Sometimes...just sometimes...being risk averse = efficiency.
Smokestack lightnin' shinin' just like gold. |
BuckStrider
Hardcore p0wnography
9
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Posted - 2012.03.04 02:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck. |
Marlona Sky
EntroPrelatial Vanguard EntroPraetorian Aegis
543
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Posted - 2012.03.04 02:18:00 -
[25] - Quote
Remove local.
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Ptraci
StoneWall Metals Productions Bloodbound.
393
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Posted - 2012.03.04 02:25:00 -
[26] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Remove local.
Yeah great idea then you won't find anyone at all, unless of course you are scanning 24/7. Go back to your wormhole. |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
484
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Posted - 2012.03.04 04:57:00 -
[27] - Quote
lol at the idea CCP needs to fix your problem.
Catch them and you win.
Only question that comes to mind that any human will think: Whoa! Those odds are beyond my ability, I am not taking that chance! which is not cowardice. Would youscale a mountain without safety gear? No? Ah, that answers the question...you don't think you would win the attempt, so you don't engage in it even though there are other people that do climb mountains without safety gear.
tl;dr aspect
You determine if you are successful or not successful. Feel comefortable fighting outnumbered? Then you have the better chance of winning. Don't think you can win...hey, even I know I won't win a game of poker against a proffessional because I lack experience. |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
101
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Posted - 2012.03.04 08:42:00 -
[28] - Quote
I'm sure you mean well OP but EVE is an "intell" game where every battle is decided before anything is locked. That's not going to change. Most Sov battles are coordinating evac. If you can't rope someone in to a battle with the threat of extinction, I don't see anything else working. |
baltec1
757
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Posted - 2012.03.04 08:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
The problem with many people is they look at numbers rather than what they are flying. |
Ottersmacker
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
73
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Posted - 2012.03.04 08:58:00 -
[30] - Quote
at least the numerically advantaged side is usually smart enough to bubble themselves so they can't run The Order of the Falcon or Hin +¡slenska f+ílkaor+¦a is a national Order of Iceland |
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