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Boost demand immediate action from SCC!

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Author	Topic
Amaandia Third Return Inc. Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2008.05.02 22:55:00 - [1] 02.05.110 As an industrial alliance, we are from time to time targeted by fanatic suicidebombers whos only goal is to disrupt our peacefull industrial operations by inflicting heavy economic losses. Insurance is still paid out for the ships lost, even though its a criminal act of terrorism. We demand that the Secure Commerce Commision takes immediate action to prevent this in systems with a security standing above 0.5 We hope other industrial corporations and alliances will stand with us in this, and therefore encourage any of them to show their support for this cause. If action is not taken, we will boycot SCC and take our business elsewhere. Show your support and reply to this statement with your coporation or alliance name, and membercount. If not in an organization, but still wanting to contribute on your own behalf as an individual, you can still submit your signature. Ammandia, head diplomat of Blue Sun Trust ----------------------------------------- Alliances : Blue Sun Trust - 113 pilots Coporations : Individuals :
Astarte Nosferatu Minmatar Canes Pugnaces	Posted - 2008.05.03 08:25:00 - [2] Cross-posting is bad, mkay?
Amaandia Third Return Inc. Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2008.05.03 19:12:00 - [3] Getting the word out there, besides This is the individual version.
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2008.05.03 20:06:00 - [4] You think anyone in power really cares about a bunch of people too weak to protect themselves? I mean, honestly.
Amaandia Third Return Inc. Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2008.05.03 20:13:00 - [5] Granted, we a small and so far the only ones willing to take up the fight. But it is never going to change unless someone puts their heels in the ground and say enough. Concord, here under the SCC is encouraging crime by simply not acting. I find it very troubeling, that the agency here to protect us, seems to have an interest in doing the exact opposite.
MirrorGod Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2008.05.03 22:40:00 - [6] Originally by: Sakura Nihil You think anyone in power really cares about a bunch of people too weak to protect themselves? I mean, honestly. This says it all, really.
Amaandia Third Return Inc. Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2008.05.03 22:50:00 - [7] This isnt about the ability to defend ourselves, but about the SSC's missing intervention in a loophole that allows coporations to use terrorism in sectors supposedly controlled by CONCORD.
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.04 11:17:00 - [8] Originally by: Sakura Nihil You think anyone in power really cares about a bunch of people too weak to protect themselves? I mean, honestly. And how exactly are they supposed to protect themselves if CONCORD is the party that protects the ones that partake in such acts of terrorism, while Pend Insurance funds them? While it's obviously a scheme of CONCORD and Pend to keep themselves in business by instilling fear in the worker class, they should be held accountable for the current situation, and pressure should be enacted on them to change their policies drastically. There are many capable podpilots willing to deal with these criminals, only to find that they hind behind CONCORD regulations, even though it is obvious that they lurk at the stargate waiting for their next victim to fall in their trap. I think it's time to put a price on the heads of known criminals, and provide bountyhunters with the means and lawful warrants required to hunt them down and kill them.
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2008.05.04 18:40:00 - [9] Edited by: Sakura Nihil on 04/05/2008 18:40:04 The problem here isn't Pend Insurance, CONCORD's failures, or a lack of bounty hunters prowling "secure space". The problem is that Amaandia and her organization rely on the fascists to come in and destroy anyone who tries to hurt them. The problem is that they are not self-reliant, and are trying to make easy money without a care in the world. If they showed some effort with regards to defending themselves, they might get a twinge of sympathy from me. But from what I can tell, this is no different than crying that the local bully came and beat them up.
Amaandia Third Return Inc. Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:00:00 - [10] We have taken the necessary precautions to defend ourselves, but it is really besides the point. Point is we shouldnt have to worry about suicide bombers at all. Its all very simple actually. Why do we have an organization to protect us, that does its best to do the exact opposite, by encouraging criminal acts of terrorism through not closing the loophole of insurance payout when ship lost to CONCORD. That is the main issue, and it has nothing to do with pend isurance, as the rules need to be changed by SCC. Theres two kinds of people in the world of EVE, those that demands an end being put to these atrocities, and those who exploit the loophole. Which one are you ?!

Magnus Nordir Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:16:00 - [11] Originally by: Amaandia Theres two kinds of people in the world of EVE, those that demands an end being put to these atrocities, and those who exploit the loophole. Then you have the people who couldn't care any less about this, the people who are not incapable of defending themselves, the people who are smart enough to know when to warp out of an asteroid belt before the attackers show up, et cetera. It's not all black and white, and you'll just have to live with it - there's no law guaranteeing you the right to mine away the natural beauty of our systems without the slightest risk. I congratulate the capsuleers willing to sacrifice their ships to preserve the wonders of our asteroid belts, and I think they're already being punished enough by the destruction of their ships, regardless if they can buy them back with insurance.
Amaandia Third Return Inc. Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:24:00 - [12] Those that does not care, or those that cant come up with a single independant thought of their own that would decide where they stand in this case. And by saying nothing at all, you consent, which sidelines you with the second group. As stated more than twice in this discussion this is not about the ability do defend ourselves. Its not about coporate warfare either, or if the belts are pretty to look at. This problem also involves out of mining situations, like hauling goods. It's a simple matter of right and wrong...
Magnus Nordir Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:39:00 - [13] Originally by: Amaandia It's a simple matter of right and wrong... That's how you perceive it, since you have a priori decided that you are "right" and anyone who disagrees with you is "wrong" before the beginning of this discussion. For example, I have no love for the capsuleers who perform illegal attacks in high security systems (let's not call them "suiciders", since the are not commiting suicide, and even if the CONCORD did start blowing up pods, it still wouldn't count as a suicide), but I don't agree with your proposition either, since it shatters the whole "business neutrality" aspect of the insurance companies. If the insurance contract says you get your ship loss refunded, that's how it should be, no strings attached.
Amaandia Third Return Inc. Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:51:00 - [14] Yes, its been decided whats right and wrong... Theres a word for that actually, its called "The Law" CONCORD is an organization created by the 4 empires, and its here to enforce the law in every aspect throught its sub agencies. By saying my perception of "right and wrong" is wrong, is saying you do not support "The law". Thats is perfectly fine, if you stay in outlaw space and never come to Empire space. But the problem is that you and the other supporters of opposition against the law, do in fact come to empire space to wreak havoc, which is the root of this entire issue.
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:54:00 - [15] Originally by: Amaandia We have taken the necessary precautions to defend ourselves, but it is really besides the point. Point is we shouldnt have to worry about suicide bombers at all. CONCORD is a twisted creation of the obsolete empires to enforce the peace between them, not to be your personal bodyguards. What precautions have you taken, specifically?
Amaandia Third Return Inc. Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:56:00 - [16] Originally by: Sakura Nihil Originally by: Amaandia We have taken the necessary precautions to defend ourselves, but it is really besides the point. Point is we shouldnt have to worry about suicide bombers at all. CONCORD is a twisted creation of the obsolete empires to enforce the peace between them, not to be your personal bodyguards. What precautions have you taken, specifically? Enforcing the law, is the purpose of DED, a subsection under CONCORD. We are not discussing my organizations efforts to protect ourselves, but the reason if we should have to or not, while in CONCORD controlled areas.
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:00:00 - [17] Originally by: Amaandia Enforcing the law, is the purpose of DED, a subsection under CONCORD. We are not discussing my organizations efforts to protect ourselves, but the reason if we should have to or not, while in CONCORD controlled areas. Translation, you're relying 100% on CONCORD to protect your asses. No sympathy then, I hope these "suicide bombers" kill more of your ships so you can learn the concept of personal responsibility.
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:06:00 - [18] Originally by: Sakura Nihil Translation, you're relying 100% on CONCORD to protect your asses. No sympathy then, I hope these "suicide bombers" kill more of your ships so you can learn the concept of personal responsibility. Yes and? Not everyone has the capabilities to defend himself. Or would it have been morally right to blow up your ship the second after you got your pilot licence?
Magnus Nordir Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:07:00 - [19] Originally by: Amaandia Yes, its been decided whats right and wrong... Theres a word for that actually, its called "The Law" CONCORD is an organization created by the 4 empires, and its here to enforce the law in every aspect throught its sub agencies. By saying my perception of "right and wrong" is wrong, is saying you do not support "The law". Thats is perfectly fine, if you stay in outlaw space and never come to Empire space. But the problem is that you and the other supporters of opposition against the law, do in fact come to empire space to wreak havoc, which is the root of this entire issue. CONCORD is there to punish, not to protect. There is nothing unlawful about the insurance compaines carrying out the obligations outlined in their costumer's contract - paying the promised fees. There was no law against being paid insurance money the last time I've checked. Seriously, you lose your ship, the attacker loses his and his security status gets damaged, and you both get paid out according to your insurance plan - there's nothing wrong about this scheme. What you are asking is for the insurance companies to forfeit a large part of their business just because you consider some capsuleers to be less deserving of insurance than yourself. That, along with the destruction of our asteroid belts for personal profit, clearly points to your arrogance and selfishness, which is of course a great thing but not sufficient to change the myriad of laws which would be required to make your idea a reality.
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:10:00 - [20] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Originally by: Sakura Nihil Translation, you're relying 100% on CONCORD to protect your asses. No sympathy then, I hope these "suicide bombers" kill more of your ships so you can learn the concept of personal responsibility. Yes and? Not everyone has the capabilities to defend himself. Or would it have been morally right to blow up your ship the second after you got your pilot licence? There's a phrase I try and live by. Only the strong survive. Strong in mind, body, or spirit. If someone can't hack the challenges of being a pod pilot, then they should go planetside and mingle among the normal people.

Amaandia Third Return Inc. Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:44:00 - [21] Edited by: Amaandia on 04/05/2008 20:45:29 Originally by: Magnus Nordir Originally by: Amaandia Yes, its been decided whats right and wrong... Theres a word for that actually, its called "The Law" CONCORD is an organization created by the 4 empires, and its here to enforce the law in every aspect throught its sub agencies. By saying my perception of "right and wrong" is wrong, is saying you do not support "The law". Thats is perfectly fine, if you stay in outlaw space and never come to Empire space. But the problem is that you and the other supporters of opposition against the law, do in fact come to empire space to wreak havoc, which is the root of this entire issue. CONCORD is there to punish, not to protect. There is nothing unlawful about the insurance compaines carrying out the obligations outlined in their costumer's contract - paying the promised fees. There was no law against being paid insurance money the last time I've checked. Seriously, you lose your ship, the attacker loses his and his security status gets damaged, and you both get paid out according to your insurance plan - there's nothing wrong about this scheme. What you are asking is for the insurance companies to forfeit a large part of their business just because you consider some capsuleers to be less deserving of insurance than yourself. That, along with the destruction of our asteroid belts for personal profit, clearly points to your arrogance and selfishness, which is of course a great thing but not sufficient to change the myriad of laws which would be required to make your idea a reality. First of all, you should start with seperating what i write and what you actually want to read, as you are now starting to put words in my mouth, that i have never spoken. I have never stated its illegal for insurance companies to pay out insurance to clients, even if they lost their ships to CONCORD. Only that it is a loophole that should be closed. As CONCORD tries to shoot on pilots opening fire in empire space, it is per definition a criminal act. What i have said, is that there should be a regulative issued by the SCC to prevent insurance payouts to pilots who lost their ships due to a criminal act, such as terrorism. It is not up to the actual insurance companies such as Pend Insurance to enforce laws, thats on the SCC and DED and therefore also CONCORD. Weather the solution is denying actual payments or another method, I will leave unsaid, as i do not have the sufficient knowledge to express myself on such a matter. But it is imperative, that the loophole should be closed, so empire citizens can travel safely in space.
Amaandia Third Return Inc. Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2008.05.04 20:47:00 - [22] Originally by: Sakura Nihil Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Originally by: Sakura Nihil Translation, you're relying 100% on CONCORD to protect your asses. No sympathy then, I hope these "suicide bombers" kill more of your ships so you can learn the concept of personal responsibility. Yes and? Not everyone has the capabilities to defend himself. Or would it have been morally right to blow up your ship the second after you got your pilot licence? There's a phrase I try and live by. Only the strong survive. Strong in mind, body, or spirit. If someone can't hack the challenges of being a pod pilot, then they should go planetside and mingle among the normal people. And you are entitled to such an oppinion, as long as you stay in outlaw space.
Magnus Nordir Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.04 21:10:00 - [23] Originally by: Amaandia And you are entitled to such an oppinion, as long as you stay in outlaw space. And why would that be so? I can do anything I like in high security space, and be punished accordingly for it. Why my insurance company should be punished for my acts (since a prohibition from paying for concorded ships would indisputably lead to severe loss of revenue for the insurance companies) is beyond me. I understand what I'm doing is against the law, and I accept the punishment. What you're proposing is discrimination against the free-thinking, which brings us one step closer to a tyranny without the freedom of thought.
ATOM ANT	Posted - 2008.05.04 21:10:00 - [24] I think i've mentioned this some place else before. Concord appaears to be doing their job. There is however a serious disparity between the suicide gankers and the insurance payout for Hulks which is my pet beef. The loss (RISK) to the ganker is a joke. But for the hulk driver its no joke. Its a very serious loss and can take considerable time to recover from because the insurance payout for a hulk is also a joke. The cost of replacing the modules for any miner is also no joke and is not insurable. The fact that the hulks ability to defend itself is limited is also a problem. I'd like to point out that the insurance payout for a covetor is quite reasonable. So why not a hulk? I've made a suggestion that the suicide ganker in anything above .5 or so, be given a -10 security rating and the inability to insure any ships for a period of time. If the insurance payout for a hulk is made reasonable then perhaps the punishment could be lightened a bit. I think you get the idea. I certainly agree that something needs to be done to curtail the activitys of suicide gankers. Primarily because theres usualy little or nothing that the Gank-ee can do to even the score a bit. This in turn can discourage and frustrate players to the point that they just quit EVE. And i can hardly blame them. One or two ships is no big deal but after multiple losses and literaly weeks or months of recovery, what is it all for? And why play? Atom-Ant.
Amaandia Third Return Inc. Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2008.05.04 21:17:00 - [25] Edited by: Amaandia on 04/05/2008 21:19:02 Originally by: Magnus Nordir Originally by: Amaandia And you are entitled to such an oppinion, as long as you stay in outlaw space. And why would that be so? I can do anything I like in high security space, and be punished accordingly for it. Why my insurance company should be punished for my acts (since a prohibition from paying for concorded ships would indisputably lead to severe loss of revenue for the insurance companies) is beyond me. I understand what I'm doing is against the law, and I accept the punishment. What you're proposing is discrimination against the free-thinking, which brings us one step closer to a tyranny without the freedom of thought. Free-thinking people that violates the law, even if fully aware, are called... Criminals, and yes I do propose that those should be discriminated by all means.
Gekkoh Caldari Circle of Steel Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.04 21:33:00 - [26] (Disclaimer: I have yet to be hi-sec ganked because I take the proper precautions to avoid it, so my opinion isnÆt based on some big loss IÆve suffered û I have yet to lose a single ISK because of this.) What CCP apparently hasn't grasped yet is that the vast majority of people who play MMO's really donÆt like issues like this. When you have sloppy game mechanics that can be abused easily (that's the key word) by someone out to grief, then you're going to get just that. I don't mind having to watch myself in hisec, and always be thinking about who might attack me at anytime. That's great! But don't let them do it with cheap use of game mechanics. Obviously, insurance is there to help players lessen the blow when they lose a ship. It shouldn't enable griefers to run around blowing up other ships in highsec with little to no loss of their own. Death in Eve is supposed to hurt. It SHOULD hurt enough to make a griefer think really hard on whether or not itÆs worth the cost to sacrifice his ship for your stuff. How would I fix this? 1. No insurance for Concord deaths. 2. For some period of time after the kill, looting or salvaging the wreck of a ship that was destroyed by Concord also brings down Concord on you, unless it belongs to you or your corp/alliance. Obviously, weÆd need some kind of indicator to flag these types of wrecks, as well as pop the standard warning dialog box. (Seriously, would the police show up to a robbery and not care if the perp handed the goods off to his friend in plain sight? That's just poor AIà) 2a. Touching the loot from said wreck does the same, again with an indicator and dialog box to prevent this mechanic from being used to dupe unsuspecting players. (to prevent some weird chain of handing off items before Concord can show up.) 3. You also lose considerable sec status for 2 or 2a. 4. Kill rights are transferable. Note that you could still blow up ships and their wrecks, denying your target whatever it is you're trying to deny them... you're just not going to profit from it at all *In addition, I'd handle using newbie corps as safe havens:* 1. No player over the age of 1(?) month can remain in a newbie corp. 1a. No player in a newbie corp can learn any spaceship command skill other than frigates and cruisers. 2. Players can have no corp affiliation. 3. Players with no corp affiliation can be declared war upon by any real corporation for 1/10th the cost of declaring war on a corp. 4. 6 days after the war has started, the player without a corp can apply to join a corporation, but cannot actually join until a 24 hour waiting period is over. This will end the war. (Of course, the aggressor can now war dec the corp they joined...) I love the danger... I just want it to be less about griefing and more about true PvP (where there are more risks involved in aggressing another party) So, if you want to target a particular corp or person, war dec æem. Great, now you're putting yourself at risk of being attacked as well and potentially losing something. And newbie corps shouldn't be a shield for corps running logistics. I hate seeing people in newbie corps flying freighters around hi-sec... that's just contrary to the overall idea of Eve. Hmm... I wonder what that'd do to empire macro miners (i.e. the ice miners that run 24/7 in Osmon)...
Magnus Nordir Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.04 21:56:00 - [27] Originally by: Gekkoh stuff (((this is an IC board, reported for OOC post))) Amaandia, I'm well aware that I'm what the current laws define as a "criminal". I've accepted my punishment for that. How do you justify punishing my insurance company for my crimes?
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:04:00 - [28] Originally by: Amaandia Free-thinking people that violates the law, even if fully aware, are called... Criminals, and yes I do propose that those should be discriminated by all means. So, in short, CONCORD are "the good guys", who everyone should support because they enforce the laws. Might makes right, after all, yea? How sickening.
Amaandia Third Return Inc. Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:10:00 - [29] Edited by: Amaandia on 04/05/2008 22:13:10 Originally by: Magnus Nordir Originally by: Gekkoh stuff (((this is an IC board, reported for OOC post))) Amaandia, I'm well aware that I'm what the current laws define as a "criminal". I've accepted my punishment for that. How do you justify punishing my insurance company for my crimes? I am not going to punish anyone. Its simple math really, you are the one that punishes the insurance company. Yes they will lose revenue in a matter of people not paying for platinum insurance on their suicide raven, but that also means they wont be paying out ten times as much to cover your loss of the raven if SCC regulated this today, corporations like Pend Insurance, would be gratefull and give me and all the other who supports action against terrorism, a big gold medal. So basically, Pend insurance backs our claim up, and that i know even though I havent talked with any from that insurance company myself... its simple logic.
Amaandia Third Return Inc. Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:12:00 - [30] Originally by: Sakura Nihil Originally by: Amaandia Free-thinking people that violates the law, even if fully aware, are called... Criminals, and yes I do propose that those should be discriminated by all means. So, in short, CONCORD are "the good guys", who everyone should support because they enforce the laws. Might makes right, after all, yea? How sickening. As i said, stay out in outlaw space and you wont have to be around people with this oppinion.

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