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Question for Candidates: The High Sec Farmer issue

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Author	Topic
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.03 21:38:00 - [1] The main question I have is how do you know they are farmers? Are they on 23x7 doing the same thing all the time? Do they operate as clockwork? (If you can time them to a point where they can be predicted, if so they are macro users) My work in game has given me the view that there are no 100% way to spot them, granted some are very easy to spot, and adding quicker way for reporting them and the isk spammers that we are seeing less and less of thanks to CCP, would he a step in the right direction, and having it automated can lead to exploitation (idea that has been on the forums, sorry I donÆt have the link). Farmers are a big problem and more ways to combat them can be a good thing, but at the same time it can hurt the legit player, and that itself can be a bad turnout. And seeing that some of the candidates want to buff out high sec even more I and that turn will make the suicide runs against them harder and harder. And a lot of the people that hunt them use suicide runs to hamper them and make a dent in their income do use suicide as a tactic if all else fails. As for calming community and creating more awareness, that CCP is actively doing something against farmers and isk sellers/buyers, is I would like to se a monthly or quarterly dev blog, which contains: Number of petitions that has to do with RMT. Number of those that lead to some sort of action form the GM's. How much isk that was removed form game (form ISK farmers/sellers/buyers). How many accounts that was banded Some type of general info. (not anything that can give insight how CCP tracks the transactions). No names of any that was found selling/buing isk/items Now I dont want to add to much into tools/tactics that can be used towards real legit players, and rather work for better ways to spot them, and report them so that the GMÆs can do their work and show the community that they are doing something. Slightly of topic: I do know that some famers do create corps and they do jump as soon as they get war decÆd, and create new corps. So even the player corps they are close to 100% safe, since the war mechanic is allowing them to jump corps and create new ones without risk, and then ofc CCP is not deeming it a exploit compared to the iMune exploit that was almost used the same way. I think a rework of the war mechanic is needed to fix this. I will rather work the issues and ideas that can work for the removal of farmers, that is goal and that is the main reason I am running, and removing farmers all together is a hard issue that will not go away before people stop buying from them. And removing them will turn to less lag, and a better game for all.
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.03 21:40:00 - [2] Originally by: Jess Ica Hmm how about making it simple! U find a high sec farmer using a macro! U report it and if CCP finds him guilty u get a small fee as loyal service! This way many more players would even hunt them down To be honest I donÆt want any kind of a reword in game, though good communication form the gm team will go a long way, and not the standard copy paste (I know that at least 1 of the GMÆs has done it, though sadly I can not share it) reply that is common in cases that revolves RMT.
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.03 22:17:00 - [3] Originally by: Arithron I personally believe that CCP takes Macro's and farming seriously. They certainly take the trading of the proceeds for cash (RMT) seriously, as I have seen just one isk-seller in the past month advertising on channels. This indicates to me that SOMETHING has already been done. Encouraging Eve Pilots to tackle these 'players' themselves has to be the way forward. Everyone complains about the farmers and Macro'ers...but do many of us actually do anything about them directly? I know some of the candidates take direct action. Some more detail on the impact of Farmer/Macro'ers (such as estimated mineral input to markets, ISK generated and sold etc) would also help emphasise the scale of the problem. Take care, Bruce Hansen hmm ok, so the x number of farmers in Aramachi that am looking at atm are being baned? (the same ones that has been here for months on end doing nothing but runing missions all day). (sorry Arithron i just had to)
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.03 22:49:00 - [4] Originally by: Arithron hmm ok, so the x number of farmers in Aramachi that am looking at atm are being baned? (the same ones that has been here for months on end doing nothing but runing missions all day). No offence taken, mine is just an opinion I'm willing to alter with eveidence to the contrary! I think I said that CCP was taking the proceeds from the farming/macroing seriously (eg, lack of in-game channel ISK selling in past month). Are you taking any action against these farmers, or posting in anyplace accessible to players who might do something about them in-game? How do you tell the difference between a farmer, and someone who is onto a good thing to make easy isk? Farming asteroids and BS spawns etc might be considered acceptable in alliance 0.0 space to make ISK. I'm not defending these guys at all, just wondering why you think CCP needs to do all the in-game work? They have to prove use of Macro's, or that something untoward is being done with the proceeds (eg, RMT)...the later seems to be the way they have chosen. Take care, Bruce Hansen Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And thanks for the questions. ;) The ISK spammers have been stopped to a point, I do see them try again every now and them. And the way CCP has done is a good way in the right direction to be honest. If you look up the name of my corp and alliance, you will se that me and my alliance is actively doing something against them. The farmers in Aramachi/saila/Laah/Isenairos/Oichiya/Motsu are a mission farmer that operates in set gangs of 4-5 bsÆs to farm the high quality navy agents up here. All day every day, me and my alliance are probing them out and do flag up to them and hope they shoot, and we do use the suicide tactic on them, and some of them do drop nice loot and donÆt say a word in local after being killed. And most off them have low ages with very high sec status (5.0 ++) as well high standings with caldari navy and caldari state. A macro can be timed, and you can find them in many of the ice belts in high sec. Common on both types that they are online all the time. And some off them have names that look like they smashed thair face on the keyboard or misspelled names of RL celebrities and yes we do petition them form time to time to see if ccp does something (rarely).
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.03 23:02:00 - [5] Edited by: MongWen on 03/05/2008 23:02:47 Originally by: Arithron I have another question: are they in any specific breach of the EULA? The reason I ask is this: If CCP (as it appears at present) are targeting the RMT end of the cycle, maybe there is some line farmers have to cross before they can be banned? Using the proceeds from their farming for Real world purposes might be this line... Take care, Bruce Hansen (Arithron) They do not brake the ELUA before they trasfer the ISK to the seller and then to the buyer, or start the macro. Edit: transfer Isk and/or items
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.03 23:14:00 - [6] Originally by: Arithron Edited by: Arithron on 03/05/2008 23:08:01 Ahh, therefore they are not in breach of the EULA, and hence action can't be taken by CCP? Certainly not until prove of RMT or Macro use surfaces... I suspect there are alts of players that 'farm' often to generate isk. Certainly, complexes used to be farmed for high value items. BS spawns probably still are. This style of play might not sit comfortably with some players, but since its within the EULA it has to be tolerated. Unless the EULA is changed... Take care, Bruce Hansen (Arithron) True, but do real players run missions 23x7 and not say a word in local when loosing expensive mods, and run in a gang of 4-5 people at the same time ?
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:43:00 - [7] Originally by: Venkul Mul So you are as usual saying "They are macro because I say they are macro, but really I mean that they are sweatshow workers, but I am not sure they sell isk so they maybe are farming for themselves but that should be disallow too"? No I am not saying that they are macros, I am saying I have reason to believe they are macros, since macro users run on timers that show a predictable pattern or like a program that runs 23x7. A sweatshop worker is harder to spot since they can not be timed like a macro, though they show the same odd behaviour of running the same thing 23x7 in the same systems, for weeks/months on end. Now the one that uses the timed pattern is more than likely using a program/macro to gain an unfair advantage, and in violation of the EULA 7-A-3. While the sweatshop worker is not in violation of the EULA/TOS before they sell the ISK and/or items. Originally by: Venkul Mul Exactly what you want to cure? RMT or people getting isk doing mission using multiple accounts, without the use of macro (maybe the G15 or whatever board, that is a allowed tool)? Now RMT is a big problem, and creating better ways to spot them, and better communications with the GM team when it comes to combating RMT is needed, as well added awareness for the general public that supporting them is bad. And at the same time calming the community that CCP is doing more that is seen. The G15 Keyboard is currently allowed, and it does not replicate mouse movement/clicks. It can run keystrokes like F1-F8, and in my opinion is in violation off the EULA 7-A-3. Originally by: Venkul Mul Seeing how most people like it much more if the target cry and swear I would say nothing in local. It would only make me a more rewarding target. Nice from you to admit that you are guessing. So simply you like the rewards of killing high sec mission runners, no problem with that, but don't cover it under the veil of a holy crusade, it is not that. Hmm okay, we donÆt invade all missions we (UCAM) comes across, nor do we engage all miners we see. We do engage those we believe are farmers, the others we do leave alone, and if they talk in local or convo us when we enter and are generally cool and all that we do leave them alone. My corp and alliance view our self as a high sec ôpirateö alliance with selected targets, we do not view it as a ôholy crusadeö.
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:44:00 - [8] Originally by: Bunyip I use a 5 step process to identify macroers....a task which I'm not sure a program could duplicate. I'll list it below for anybody dedicated to destroying macroers. 1) Mining in a group (Macroers nearly always mine in groups, and if a player is using a macro, he'd probably be alone) 2) Personal Info (Macro groups normally are born on the same day, and have mostly nonsense names) 3) Convo Request (If the request isn't answered in 30 seconds, the person is either AFK or a macroer) 4) Bump (If they're not macroers, they're gonna get upset) 5) Canflip (I do this only if the other tests fail. This is the last straw usually if the above test gives incorrect results) Hope this helps. I've reported over 100 macroers using the above testing process, but haven't seen any results. - Bunyip there are no 100% way for players to prove anything. it takes a GM to do that ;)
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.04 18:24:00 - [9] Originally by: Strak Yogorn actually they are, for account sharing, why CCP dont do anything about it is anyones guess. how i know ? its the only possible way the chars can be online 23/7, and ougt to be very easy to spot in logs etc .. Yes in a way though it does not prove that they are account sharing just because they are online 23x7, the line is when they do the something all the time during that time line. Originally by: TOS 22. You may not share your account password with anyone. Infraction of this rule is done at your own risk. Further information on account transfers can be found in the EULA. The above is taken form the TOS regarding account sharing, and I donÆt recall it being in the EULA. Originally by: Venkul Mul Ok, sometime I am too defensive against people throwing accusation of macro left or right but I have seen plenty of them on the forum and in game saying "I hunt macro" when what they really is to hunt anything that seem a good target and then label him macro as a excuse. I even recall a guy advertising in his bio "I hunt macro for isk, you pay I kill them" and clearly admitting that for him if you pay him the target is a macro, no check, no real importance in what the target is. No problem if he was advertising "Merc/Killer for hire", when he say "Macro hunter for hire" he is simply lying to get a positive reaction instead of a negative. I totally agree, but some people actually put allot of time in game hunting farmers/macros, though I can not say I am always right in my judgement, but rather giving the benefit of a doubt in some cases.

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