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Question for Candidates: The High Sec Farmer issue

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Author	Topic
count sporkula	Posted - 2008.05.04 14:06:00 - [31] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Originally by: count sporkula how about this. given that other programs are detecting if they are running twice (diablo 2 for example) Easily taken out of the executable with a simple text editor. Plus there are many players that run multiple clients legitemately. . i understand this but you can setup an integrity check. and i was only using this as a very basic idea as the names of a few others escape me at the moment.
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.04 14:22:00 - [32] Originally by: count sporkula i understand this but you can setup an integrity check. and i was only using this as a very basic idea as the names of a few others escape me at the moment. Ah okay. Ideas are always welcome
Bunyip Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:18:00 - [33] I use a 5 step process to identify macroers....a task which I'm not sure a program could duplicate. I'll list it below for anybody dedicated to destroying macroers. 1) Mining in a group (Macroers nearly always mine in groups, and if a player is using a macro, he'd probably be alone) 2) Personal Info (Macro groups normally are born on the same day, and have mostly nonsense names) 3) Convo Request (If the request isn't answered in 30 seconds, the person is either AFK or a macroer) 4) Bump (If they're not macroers, they're gonna get upset) 5) Canflip (I do this only if the other tests fail. This is the last straw usually if the above test gives incorrect results) Hope this helps. I've reported over 100 macroers using the above testing process, but haven't seen any results. - Bunyip
zoolkhan Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:32:00 - [34] Edited by: zoolkhan on 04/05/2008 16:34:36 Originally by: Bunyip I use a 5 step process to identify macroers....a task which I'm not sure a program could duplicate. I'll list it below for anybody dedicated to destroying macroers. 1) Mining in a group (Macroers nearly always mine in groups, and if a player is using a macro, he'd probably be alone) 2) Personal Info (Macro groups normally are born on the same day, and have mostly nonsense names) 3) Convo Request (If the request isn't answered in 30 seconds, the person is either AFK or a macroer) 4) Bump (If they're not macroers, they're gonna get upset) 5) Canflip (I do this only if the other tests fail. This is the last straw usually if the above test gives incorrect results) Hope this helps. I've reported over 100 macroers using the above testing process, but haven't seen any results. - Bunyip yes, these are strong indications - but non of these is proof in order for ccp to do somthing there need to be proof. nonsens characternames created same day, are absolutely EULA compliant. Nothing anyone can do about it. peopel who autoreject are frequent, i mean normal pilots. especially in pvp they hate to be convoed during battle - no proof of a macro bumping, yeah as you said - he might be gandhi in a barge, or afk - no crime, no violation in that, nothing CCP can do so a program could certainly do the same test and generate a "likehood" value. but even if all factors hit 100% - none of them is a violation against law, no legal reason to take legal steps. -- if one can measure a respons of only milliseconds like - cargo bay full, unload to can took less than 0.5 sec , then we start getting closer to a proof, however - as soon that detection method is used, the macro-programmer just adds a random delay to it and the proof is gone. if you consider a bump as a strong indicator, then teh macroer just adds a bump-response scripts that flame at people randomly from databases of more than a few hundred flame sentences have already been used in 1980s modem/bbs scene before you and me had internet. I cough operated such a thing :) All i am saying is, CCP must obey the law. If they dont, the scandal in the press would be desastrous. As long they cant see what client side code is beeing executed, they can only act base up on good or not so good guessing :(( you wont like to read these lines, but i am a realist also now.
Ma Zhiqiang Minmatar Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:33:00 - [35] Even though I don't have any technical knowledge of how codes etc works, I feel this is a strong issue and that CCP should put more effort into it. It's a MMO game. The concept is to play together with other players. If you want to play with yourself, there are other ways and games for it.
zoolkhan Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:36:00 - [36] Originally by: Ma Zhiqiang Even though I don't have any technical knowledge of how codes etc works, I feel this is a strong issue and that CCP should put more effort into it. It's a MMO game. The concept is to play together with other players. If you want to play with yourself, there are other ways and games for it. i read this very same sentence now teh 2nd time in a different thread. Schouldnt you be trying to hack in individual responses instead of a template you just copy? :-)
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:43:00 - [37] Originally by: Venkul Mul So you are as usual saying "They are macro because I say they are macro, but really I mean that they are sweatshow workers, but I am not sure they sell isk so they maybe are farming for themselves but that should be disallow too"? No I am not saying that they are macros, I am saying I have reason to believe they are macros, since macro users run on timers that show a predictable pattern or like a program that runs 23x7. A sweatshop worker is harder to spot since they can not be timed like a macro, though they show the same odd behaviour of running the same thing 23x7 in the same systems, for weeks/months on end. Now the one that uses the timed pattern is more than likely using a program/macro to gain an unfair advantage, and in violation of the EULA 7-A-3. While the sweatshop worker is not in violation of the EULA/TOS before they sell the ISK and/or items. Originally by: Venkul Mul Exactly what you want to cure? RMT or people getting isk doing mission using multiple accounts, without the use of macro (maybe the G15 or whatever board, that is a allowed tool)? Now RMT is a big problem, and creating better ways to spot them, and better communications with the GM team when it comes to combating RMT is needed, as well added awareness for the general public that supporting them is bad. And at the same time calming the community that CCP is doing more that is seen. The G15 Keyboard is currently allowed, and it does not replicate mouse movement/clicks. It can run keystrokes like F1-F8, and in my opinion is in violation off the EULA 7-A-3. Originally by: Venkul Mul Seeing how most people like it much more if the target cry and swear I would say nothing in local. It would only make me a more rewarding target. Nice from you to admit that you are guessing. So simply you like the rewards of killing high sec mission runners, no problem with that, but don't cover it under the veil of a holy crusade, it is not that. Hmm okay, we donÆt invade all missions we (UCAM) comes across, nor do we engage all miners we see. We do engage those we believe are farmers, the others we do leave alone, and if they talk in local or convo us when we enter and are generally cool and all that we do leave them alone. My corp and alliance view our self as a high sec ôpirateö alliance with selected targets, we do not view it as a ôholy crusadeö.
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:44:00 - [38] Originally by: Bunyip I use a 5 step process to identify macroers....a task which I'm not sure a program could duplicate. I'll list it below for anybody dedicated to destroying macroers. 1) Mining in a group (Macroers nearly always mine in groups, and if a player is using a macro, he'd probably be alone) 2) Personal Info (Macro groups normally are born on the same day, and have mostly nonsense names) 3) Convo Request (If the request isn't answered in 30 seconds, the person is either AFK or a macroer) 4) Bump (If they're not macroers, they're gonna get upset) 5) Canflip (I do this only if the other tests fail. This is the last straw usually if the above test gives incorrect results) Hope this helps. I've reported over 100 macroers using the above testing process, but haven't seen any results. - Bunyip there are no 100% way for players to prove anything. it takes a GM to do that ;)
Ma Zhiqiang Minmatar Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:46:00 - [39] As I said. I don't have any technical knowledge to say what could be improved. One idea would be to not allow anyone flying anything but frigates unless you're in a corp, so an anti-macro corp or alliance at least could declare war on them. I have read some things about the client code being leaked and that many have used it to build very complex macros etc. This is were my knowledge ends. I don't know anything about how to improve code etc to protect it from being hacked, since all things seems to be hackable for the ones who really wants to. This issue also ties to the discussions what information the client sends to CCP and what CCP reads out of it. There could maybe be some improvements there.
Havlentia Castigatrix Gallente The Avalon Foundation Delta.Green	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:08:00 - [40] Originally by: zoolkhan yes, these are strong indications - but non of these is proof in order for ccp to do somthing there need to be proof. CCP has evidence, and it's called an SQL dump. I think you really need to disconnect away from the promotional PR that CCP does in terms of 'RMT is bad, mmm'kay', and understand that they have a vested interest in keeping the number of paying accounts up. The 'remedy' to RMT mentioned in the recent Dev Blog was 'buy moar GTCs', which is essentially shifting the narcotics users into doctor shopping, and could possibly be fueling the problem by removing the necessity to do more than churn the profits of your farming into more gametime. A 'legitimate' account will have continued skill training. It will have varied activity, it will move about, it will buy stuff, it will initiate and receive chat requests, it will log on at different times to the people that it gangs with frequently. It will rat, it will take on missions, it will redeem LPs. Hell, you could follow large transactions through the system itself and start directly flagging laundering accounts to watch them closely. In other words, there is a running log that a turing test could be applied to, and then a soft ban applied pending contact from a CCP rep. IF they have the will. So far, not seeing the will, just some fairly empty handwaving.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:13:00 - [41] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Not me. As a programmer, I've made a lot of stuff including relatively complex NPC AIs for my Ultima Online server (to be specific, henchmen AIs to assist the player in various flavours which responded to text commands). The biggest problem of giving any control in the anti macro crusade to player beyond signaling the suspected macro is that no one of them will ever admit they can be wrong (it is exactly what you have just done "Not me"). So if a suspected macro is still there they will say "CCP is doing nothing", "they keep them here because they pay", "I will kill that damned macro". No one will say "CCP has investigated suspect guy A, if they have found none it mean that probably he is not running a macro." The mildest reaction from a player that don't see a suspect that still mine after some day is to report him again, and again, and again till he find a GM that first ban and then investigate. A more probable reaction is a whining post in forum and suiciding the player or finding someone that will suicide him. That is why I strongly disagree with any form of vigilante action.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:24:00 - [42] Originally by: Bunyip I use a 5 step process to identify macroers....a task which I'm not sure a program could duplicate. I'll list it below for anybody dedicated to destroying macroers. 1) Mining in a group (Macroers nearly always mine in groups, and if a player is using a macro, he'd probably be alone) 2) Personal Info (Macro groups normally are born on the same day, and have mostly nonsense names) 3) Convo Request (If the request isn't answered in 30 seconds, the person is either AFK or a macroer) 4) Bump (If they're not macroers, they're gonna get upset) 5) Canflip (I do this only if the other tests fail. This is the last straw usually if the above test gives incorrect results) Hope this helps. I've reported over 100 macroers using the above testing process, but haven't seen any results. - Bunyip 1) I have mined in group as a corp and alone , very weak indicator as most corp and players with multiple accounts would be mining in group. There are skill that increase yeld if mining in group so requests and offer for extra miners for a gang are common in the starting players corp. Offering to lead a mining gang (and giving the foreman bonus) is even a thing several people in the NPC corp channel do as a little favor for new players. 2) A better indicator, but a player that has started several accounts with the intention to use them for mining (no need of a macro, simply a PC capable of running multiple accounts) could have started them at the same time. It would make easier to change skills. And as most players fantasy is not so great that is the origin of the miner1, miner 2 ecc guys. 3) Wildly variable replies there, Leandro (one of your fellow CSM candidate) for example has auto reject enabled. I would reply if I feel I am of the right humor, but usually I will check your bio before and what you have there will change if I will reply or not. 4) Again, people do that for giggles and love to get angry replies, so I will never reply or contact you unless I have seen something in local that give me the impression that you are on a anti macro crusade. Then I feel that most player in anti macro crusades are totally hypocrites and use it as an exscuse to harass miners, so probably I will not contact you the same. 5) Same as 4 and 5, you can convince me to leave the belt, not to contact or speak with you, much more probable that I will block you.
Strak Yogorn Amarr Mind Warpers	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:38:00 - [43] Originally by: Arithron I have another question: are they in any specific breach of the EULA? The reason I ask is this: If CCP (as it appears at present) are targeting the RMT end of the cycle, maybe there is some line farmers have to cross before they can be banned? Using the proceeds from their farming for Real world purposes might be this line... Take care, Bruce Hansen (Arithron) actually they are, for account sharing, why CCP dont do anything about it is anyones guess. how i know ? its the only possible way the chars can be online 23/7, and ougt to be very easy to spot in logs etc ..
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.04 18:08:00 - [44] Originally by: MongWen Originally by: Venkul Mul Exactly what you want to cure? RMT or people getting isk doing mission using multiple accounts, without the use of macro (maybe the G15 or whatever board, that is a allowed tool)? Now RMT is a big problem, and creating better ways to spot them, and better communications with the GM team when it comes to combating RMT is needed, as well added awareness for the general public that supporting them is bad. And at the same time calming the community that CCP is doing more that is seen. The G15 Keyboard is currently allowed, and it does not replicate mouse movement/clicks. It can run keystrokes like F1-F8, and in my opinion is in violation off the EULA 7-A-3. Originally by: Venkul Mul Seeing how most people like it much more if the target cry and swear I would say nothing in local. It would only make me a more rewarding target. Nice from you to admit that you are guessing. So simply you like the rewards of killing high sec mission runners, no problem with that, but don't cover it under the veil of a holy crusade, it is not that. Hmm okay, we donÆt invade all missions we (UCAM) comes across, nor do we engage all miners we see. We do engage those we believe are farmers, the others we do leave alone, and if they talk in local or convo us when we enter and are generally cool and all that we do leave them alone. My corp and alliance view our self as a high sec ôpirateö alliance with selected targets, we do not view it as a ôholy crusadeö. Ok, sometime I am too defensive against people throwing accusation of macro left or right but I have seen plenty of them on the forum and in game saying "I hunt macro" when what they really is to hunt anything that seem a good target and then label him macro as a excuse. I even recall a guy advertising in his bio "I hunt macro for isk, you pay I kill them" and clearly admitting that for him if you pay him the target is a macro, no check, no real importance in what the target is. No problem if he was advertising "Merc/Killer for hire", when he say "Macro hunter for hire" he is simply lying to get a positive reaction instead of a negative.
Ma Zhiqiang Minmatar Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.04 18:18:00 - [45] Just a wild thought. When a GM recognises a macro character, he/she could announce a contract on that pilot, or make them flashy.
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.04 18:24:00 - [46] Originally by: Strak Yogorn actually they are, for account sharing, why CCP dont do anything about it is anyones guess. how i know ? its the only possible way the chars can be online 23/7, and ougt to be very easy to spot in logs etc .. Yes in a way though it does not prove that they are account sharing just because they are online 23x7, the line is when they do the something all the time during that time line. Originally by: TOS 22. You may not share your account password with anyone. Infraction of this rule is done at your own risk. Further information on account transfers can be found in the EULA. The above is taken form the TOS regarding account sharing, and I donÆt recall it being in the EULA. Originally by: Venkul Mul Ok, sometime I am too defensive against people throwing accusation of macro left or right but I have seen plenty of them on the forum and in game saying "I hunt macro" when what they really is to hunt anything that seem a good target and then label him macro as a excuse. I even recall a guy advertising in his bio "I hunt macro for isk, you pay I kill them" and clearly admitting that for him if you pay him the target is a macro, no check, no real importance in what the target is. No problem if he was advertising "Merc/Killer for hire", when he say "Macro hunter for hire" he is simply lying to get a positive reaction instead of a negative. I totally agree, but some people actually put allot of time in game hunting farmers/macros, though I can not say I am always right in my judgement, but rather giving the benefit of a doubt in some cases.
Learyth Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:42:00 - [47] I will say this as a pod pilot and a mission runner. I run missions when I'm not in a pvp corp out in the middle of 0.0 somewhere. When I have great need of isk quickly. I'll invest in a few GTC's and sell them. But I actually prefer to mission run to rebuild. The process takes longer. But I've also earned the isk I have to rebuild my ship stocks so I can return to pvp. If I mission run all the time. And watch theives salvage my wrecks. Stealing millions in salvage. Yes Take out the bot runners. But always double check to make sure your actually doing it in a manner that will try and avoid banning a pilot who's just trying to recover his PVP losses.
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