EVE Search - Question for Candidates: The High Sec Farmer issue

Search EVE-Online forums for:

All Channels

Jita Park Speakers Corner

Question for Candidates: The High Sec Farmer issue

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 :: [one page]

Author	Topic
Tac Ginaz Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.03 18:25:00 - [1] Candidates, Please advise your stand on this issue. Farmers found in high sec space clogging the nodes (I've seen 220+ farmers in one system at a time) doing industrial missions 24/7 affect the player market dramatically by injecting a massive amount of ISK into the market and driving cost and inflation of items up. Farmers have no isk-sink and are 100% protected in empire space by Concord and by being in an NPC corporation. In low-sec they are protected by the associated loss of sec standing to any player that attacks them and by their NPC corporation (cant war-dec). Furthermore, even if these farmers could be war-dec'd, the current game mechanics allow them to switch corporations instantly. CCP has been very hypocritical in the handling of this issue. Those hundreds, if not thousands, of farmer accounts are income for them and it seems this is the reason why they take no decisive action yet at the same time claim RMT (real-money-trading) is not allowed. The farmers are not hard to spot.. in one day any person can easily get the names of more than a hundred of these accounts just by staying in one system and watching them go back and forth for hours. What will candidates do on this issue?
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.03 18:52:00 - [2] Now that Eve has grown over the past years, and due to a dev claiming that 80% of the accounts belong to an unique individual, I think it's time to get rid of these bots, as the dent in CCP's income is not that severe at this point. Bots are bad for the economy, and they are very accessible I found, just a simple google query yields tons of these programs. These programs can also contain virusses and trojans, and players tempted to try them out, partially due to lack of action against botters from CCP's part, lose their account in this fashion. However, I'm going to quote Raph Koster again, as he has a very appropriate quote: Quote: Macroing, botting, and automation No matter what you do, someone is going to automate the process of playing your world. Corollary: Looking at what parts of your game players tend to automate is a good way to determine which parts of the game are tedious and/or not fun. Mining and mission running is a grind that is not fun, at least not after you have been doing it for a few months and go through the same loops over and over and over. I'd like to see these systems made a lot more interesting.
Bunyip Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.05.03 19:16:00 - [3] Hello Tac, As far as mining, I have come up with a solution that I think might work. As outlined in my CSM webpage, it will also make AFK mining a thing of the past. There is still more to add to it, but it's a start. The way I see it, we could have periodic, random raids of high-sec where a massive group of rats come through and hit all the belts before Concord quashes them. There will be a 5 minute warning before the raid to give those who are at the keyboard a chance to run back to a station before the armada arrives. While bots might be able to detect the message if it was posted in local, it could be done by a developer playing an NPC that has already existed in the game. There should be some way to verify this, but if they use different text and such, it could be a randomizing factor that the macros wouldn't be able to detect, causing a massive dent in their profit margin. I'm also looking at other ways to improve mining (such as the targeting grid that was suggested, where hitting a certain point in an asteroid will yield more ore). This idea is in it's infancy, but I think it has a good chance of working. - Bunyip
TornSoul BIG	Posted - 2008.05.03 20:00:00 - [4] The macro/bot issue is very hard to effectivly quel. Any automated ways of trying to disrupt macroing are bound to be circumvented by clever bot writers (I commend Bunyip on trying though, and please dont stop) And most automated ways, usually also "hurts" the legit players. To combat macroers takes manpower... Lots and lots of manpower... Automating it simply doesnt cut it. So I'll turn your question around to: I personally would be interested in knowing how many resources CCP are actually putting towards combatting macroers, and in what ways (without mentioning specifics ofc, as the macroers woudl then change their ways) Maybe we could then get rid of the accusations of CCP not caring about the issue (and instead wanting the subscription fees), or we might actually see that they indeed arent caring. Right now it's a guessing game (and theres tin hats all over the place)
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.03 20:16:00 - [5] Don't forget that there are other games as well, and that there is a game that recently tackled the bots quite effectively. That game is Guild Wars. It was plagued by bots and the game masters litterally banned hundreds of accounts a day but there was no end to it. They already had some automated systems in place that would flag suspicious players, I assume it was based on their time online, the amount of zones loaded and the intervals, and most importantly the amount of loot acquired. But bots were totally crushed when they did the following: 1) New accounts could not trade for 24 hours, to avoid account purchases by stolen creditcards. 2) Mobilize the players to report the bots. Players can now simply type /report and target a bot, and then select the offense (botting/spamming/leeching/etc). No further input is required, just type report, that's all. The account gets looked at immediately, especially if reported by multiple people. You can easily report 30 bots per minute, and watch as they get kicked. Thousands and thousands of bots got banned, and Guild Wars and Bergen is now again Bergen Hot Springs instead of Bergen Bot Springs. A similar system would work quite well in Eve to get rid of them, once CCP is willing to undertake action, that is.
Jess Ica Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.03 20:25:00 - [6] Hmm how about making it simple! U find a high sec farmer using a macro! U report it and if CCP finds him guilty u get a small fee as loyal service! This way many more players would even hunt them down
TornSoul BIG	Posted - 2008.05.03 20:45:00 - [7] Edited by: TornSoul on 03/05/2008 20:45:28 Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah 2) Mobilize the players to report the bots. Players can now simply type /report and target a bot, and then select the offense (botting/spamming/leeching/etc). No further input is required, just type report, that's all. The account gets looked at immediately, especially if reported by multiple people. You can easily report 30 bots per minute, and watch as they get kicked. Thousands and thousands of bots got banned I agree, this would be highly effective. And as I pointed out in my previous post - It will take lots and lots of (CCP) manpower, to look at all the reports - Thats the catch unfortunatly... So it would be very interesting to get to know from CCP if they'd be willing to do this (or are in fact already doing it etc) TornSoul campaign website : It's about "The BIG picture"
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.03 21:38:00 - [8] The main question I have is how do you know they are farmers? Are they on 23x7 doing the same thing all the time? Do they operate as clockwork? (If you can time them to a point where they can be predicted, if so they are macro users) My work in game has given me the view that there are no 100% way to spot them, granted some are very easy to spot, and adding quicker way for reporting them and the isk spammers that we are seeing less and less of thanks to CCP, would he a step in the right direction, and having it automated can lead to exploitation (idea that has been on the forums, sorry I donÆt have the link). Farmers are a big problem and more ways to combat them can be a good thing, but at the same time it can hurt the legit player, and that itself can be a bad turnout. And seeing that some of the candidates want to buff out high sec even more I and that turn will make the suicide runs against them harder and harder. And a lot of the people that hunt them use suicide runs to hamper them and make a dent in their income do use suicide as a tactic if all else fails. As for calming community and creating more awareness, that CCP is actively doing something against farmers and isk sellers/buyers, is I would like to se a monthly or quarterly dev blog, which contains: Number of petitions that has to do with RMT. Number of those that lead to some sort of action form the GM's. How much isk that was removed form game (form ISK farmers/sellers/buyers). How many accounts that was banded Some type of general info. (not anything that can give insight how CCP tracks the transactions). No names of any that was found selling/buing isk/items Now I dont want to add to much into tools/tactics that can be used towards real legit players, and rather work for better ways to spot them, and report them so that the GMÆs can do their work and show the community that they are doing something. Slightly of topic: I do know that some famers do create corps and they do jump as soon as they get war decÆd, and create new corps. So even the player corps they are close to 100% safe, since the war mechanic is allowing them to jump corps and create new ones without risk, and then ofc CCP is not deeming it a exploit compared to the iMune exploit that was almost used the same way. I think a rework of the war mechanic is needed to fix this. I will rather work the issues and ideas that can work for the removal of farmers, that is goal and that is the main reason I am running, and removing farmers all together is a hard issue that will not go away before people stop buying from them. And removing them will turn to less lag, and a better game for all.
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.03 21:40:00 - [9] Originally by: Jess Ica Hmm how about making it simple! U find a high sec farmer using a macro! U report it and if CCP finds him guilty u get a small fee as loyal service! This way many more players would even hunt them down To be honest I donÆt want any kind of a reword in game, though good communication form the gm team will go a long way, and not the standard copy paste (I know that at least 1 of the GMÆs has done it, though sadly I can not share it) reply that is common in cases that revolves RMT.
Arithron Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.03 22:09:00 - [10] I personally believe that CCP takes Macro's and farming seriously. They certainly take the trading of the proceeds for cash (RMT) seriously, as I have seen just one isk-seller in the past month advertising on channels. This indicates to me that SOMETHING has already been done. Encouraging Eve Pilots to tackle these 'players' themselves has to be the way forward. Everyone complains about the farmers and Macro'ers...but do many of us actually do anything about them directly? I know some of the candidates take direct action. Some more detail on the impact of Farmer/Macro'ers (such as estimated mineral input to markets, ISK generated and sold etc) would also help emphasise the scale of the problem. Take care, Bruce Hansen

MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.03 22:17:00 - [11] Originally by: Arithron I personally believe that CCP takes Macro's and farming seriously. They certainly take the trading of the proceeds for cash (RMT) seriously, as I have seen just one isk-seller in the past month advertising on channels. This indicates to me that SOMETHING has already been done. Encouraging Eve Pilots to tackle these 'players' themselves has to be the way forward. Everyone complains about the farmers and Macro'ers...but do many of us actually do anything about them directly? I know some of the candidates take direct action. Some more detail on the impact of Farmer/Macro'ers (such as estimated mineral input to markets, ISK generated and sold etc) would also help emphasise the scale of the problem. Take care, Bruce Hansen hmm ok, so the x number of farmers in Aramachi that am looking at atm are being baned? (the same ones that has been here for months on end doing nothing but runing missions all day). (sorry Arithron i just had to)
Arithron Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.03 22:34:00 - [12] hmm ok, so the x number of farmers in Aramachi that am looking at atm are being baned? (the same ones that has been here for months on end doing nothing but runing missions all day). No offence taken, mine is just an opinion I'm willing to alter with eveidence to the contrary! I think I said that CCP was taking the proceeds from the farming/macroing seriously (eg, lack of in-game channel ISK selling in past month). Are you taking any action against these farmers, or posting in anyplace accessible to players who might do something about them in-game? How do you tell the difference between a farmer, and someone who is onto a good thing to make easy isk? Farming asteroids and BS spawns etc might be considered acceptable in alliance 0.0 space to make ISK. I'm not defending these guys at all, just wondering why you think CCP needs to do all the in-game work? They have to prove use of Macro's, or that something untoward is being done with the proceeds (eg, RMT)...the later seems to be the way they have chosen. Take care, Bruce Hansen
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.03 22:49:00 - [13] Originally by: Arithron hmm ok, so the x number of farmers in Aramachi that am looking at atm are being baned? (the same ones that has been here for months on end doing nothing but runing missions all day). No offence taken, mine is just an opinion I'm willing to alter with eveidence to the contrary! I think I said that CCP was taking the proceeds from the farming/macroing seriously (eg, lack of in-game channel ISK selling in past month). Are you taking any action against these farmers, or posting in anyplace accessible to players who might do something about them in-game? How do you tell the difference between a farmer, and someone who is onto a good thing to make easy isk? Farming asteroids and BS spawns etc might be considered acceptable in alliance 0.0 space to make ISK. I'm not defending these guys at all, just wondering why you think CCP needs to do all the in-game work? They have to prove use of Macro's, or that something untoward is being done with the proceeds (eg, RMT)...the later seems to be the way they have chosen. Take care, Bruce Hansen Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And thanks for the questions. ;) The ISK spammers have been stopped to a point, I do see them try again every now and them. And the way CCP has done is a good way in the right direction to be honest. If you look up the name of my corp and alliance, you will se that me and my alliance is actively doing something against them. The farmers in Aramachi/saila/Laah/Isenairos/Oichiya/Motsu are a mission farmer that operates in set gangs of 4-5 bsÆs to farm the high quality navy agents up here. All day every day, me and my alliance are probing them out and do flag up to them and hope they shoot, and we do use the suicide tactic on them, and some of them do drop nice loot and donÆt say a word in local after being killed. And most off them have low ages with very high sec status (5.0 ++) as well high standings with caldari navy and caldari state. A macro can be timed, and you can find them in many of the ice belts in high sec. Common on both types that they are online all the time. And some off them have names that look like they smashed thair face on the keyboard or misspelled names of RL celebrities and yes we do petition them form time to time to see if ccp does something (rarely).
Arithron Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.03 22:59:00 - [14] I have another question: are they in any specific breach of the EULA? The reason I ask is this: If CCP (as it appears at present) are targeting the RMT end of the cycle, maybe there is some line farmers have to cross before they can be banned? Using the proceeds from their farming for Real world purposes might be this line... Take care, Bruce Hansen (Arithron)
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.03 23:02:00 - [15] Edited by: MongWen on 03/05/2008 23:02:47 Originally by: Arithron I have another question: are they in any specific breach of the EULA? The reason I ask is this: If CCP (as it appears at present) are targeting the RMT end of the cycle, maybe there is some line farmers have to cross before they can be banned? Using the proceeds from their farming for Real world purposes might be this line... Take care, Bruce Hansen (Arithron) They do not brake the ELUA before they trasfer the ISK to the seller and then to the buyer, or start the macro. Edit: transfer Isk and/or items
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.05.03 23:06:00 - [16] While I agree with the theory that making it easier for players to report farmers would be nice, I try to imagine how it would work in practice in Eve, and I have to ask this: With the extent to which we all know metagaming already takes place in this game, how do we know that people on opposite sides of a separate conflict (using BoB/Goons as an example) wouldn't just clog up such a system by mass-reporting their enemies for their own gain? /Ben
Arithron Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.03 23:07:00 - [17] Edited by: Arithron on 03/05/2008 23:08:01 Ahh, therefore they are not in breach of the EULA, and hence action can't be taken by CCP? Certainly not until prove of RMT or Macro use surfaces... I suspect there are alts of players that 'farm' often to generate isk. Certainly, complexes used to be farmed for high value items. BS spawns probably still are. This style of play might not sit comfortably with some players, but since its within the EULA it has to be tolerated. Unless the EULA is changed... Take care, Bruce Hansen (Arithron)
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.03 23:14:00 - [18] Originally by: Arithron Edited by: Arithron on 03/05/2008 23:08:01 Ahh, therefore they are not in breach of the EULA, and hence action can't be taken by CCP? Certainly not until prove of RMT or Macro use surfaces... I suspect there are alts of players that 'farm' often to generate isk. Certainly, complexes used to be farmed for high value items. BS spawns probably still are. This style of play might not sit comfortably with some players, but since its within the EULA it has to be tolerated. Unless the EULA is changed... Take care, Bruce Hansen (Arithron) True, but do real players run missions 23x7 and not say a word in local when loosing expensive mods, and run in a gang of 4-5 people at the same time ?
Civil Unrest	Posted - 2008.05.03 23:25:00 - [19] Well, ultimately addressing the issue is within the power of CCP, and I agree with the prior posters concerning the level of effort necessary on their (CCP's) part to be successful, and yes, human ingenuity being what it is, ongoing attempts to circumvent any fix will always continue - but... I can see two possible beginnings to fixes: 1, bots are only successful if they make a LOT of ISK - the CCP could in effect create an Internal Revenue Service equivalent that would identify characters making a lot of money in high sec and investigating them for bot-like behavior, with resultant penalties when bots are identified. 2. Add a distorted visual input to the current viewscreen (similar to distorted words used to combat bots under other circumstances). Add periodic Concord sweeps through asteroid fields with demand for the password given in the distorted format. If they give the wrong response, they get destroyed and subsequently investigated by the IRS. CU
Bunyip Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.05.04 06:30:00 - [20] In the EULA, Item 7-A-3: You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. So yes, what they're doing is breaking the game rules. - Bunyip

Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.04 07:20:00 - [21] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 04/05/2008 07:23:53 Originally by: MongWen Edited by: MongWen on 03/05/2008 23:02:47 Originally by: Arithron I have another question: are they in any specific breach of the EULA? The reason I ask is this: If CCP (as it appears at present) are targeting the RMT end of the cycle, maybe there is some line farmers have to cross before they can be banned? Using the proceeds from their farming for Real world purposes might be this line... Take care, Bruce Hansen (Arithron) They do not brake the ELUA before they trasfer the ISK to the seller and then to the buyer, or start the macro. Edit: transfer Isk and/or items So you are as usual saying "They are macro because I say they are macro, but really I mean that they are sweatshow workers, but I am not sure they sell isk so they maybe are farming for themselves but that should be disallow too"? Exactly what you want to cure? RMT or people getting isk doing mission using multiple accounts, without the use of macro (maybe the G15 or whatever board, that is a allowed tool)? Originally by: MongWen True, but do real players run missions 23x7 and not say a word in local when loosing expensive mods, and run in a gang of 4-5 people at the same time ? Edit: There are no 100% way to spot or confirm if it is a farmer or macro. Seeing how most people like it much more if the target cry and swear I would say nothing in local. It would only make me a more rewarding target. Nice from you to admit that you are guessing. So simply you like the rewards of killing high sec mission runners, no problem with that, but don't cover it under the veil of a holy crusade, it is not that.
Arithron Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 07:29:00 - [22] Quote: In the EULA, Item 7-A-3: You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. I'm in full agreement with others on their stance against Macro's (and other 3rd party software). I was trying to point out that farmers present a different challenge, since they aren't technically in breach of the EULA (since anyone could do what they are doing, and they aren't accelerating anything). Thus, CCP can currently only address the RMT area associated with this. I see this as two different areas. Firstly, things can be farmed. Secondly, items from in-game activities are sold for real money (RMT). One is currently not in breach of the EULA, the other definately is and is acted upon already by CCP (and I'm in full support of them doing so!). This question might provoke some interesting material for the discussion and move it forward; How, apart from scale, is farming missions any different than alliances farming BS spawns and asteroids? Take care, Bruce Hansen
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.04 08:09:00 - [23] Originally by: Arithron Quote: In the EULA, Item 7-A-3: You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. I'm in full agreement with others on their stance against Macro's (and other 3rd party software). I was trying to point out that farmers present a different challenge, since they aren't technically in breach of the EULA (since anyone could do what they are doing, and they aren't accelerating anything). Thus, CCP can currently only address the RMT area associated with this. I see this as two different areas. Firstly, things can be farmed. Secondly, items from in-game activities are sold for real money (RMT). One is currently not in breach of the EULA, the other definately is and is acted upon already by CCP (and I'm in full support of them doing so!). This question might provoke some interesting material for the discussion and move it forward; How, apart from scale, is farming missions any different than alliances farming BS spawns and asteroids? Take care, Bruce Hansen If they currently aren't in breach of the EULA, then the EULA should simply be changed to prohibit any AUTOMATED interaction with the client. That'd blanket 3rd party notification programs, macroing, and (spam)bots.
Bunyip Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.05.04 08:20:00 - [24] Technically, and legally, speaking, having a program automatically move ore from a cargohold to a can or vice versa could be considered aquiring the item at a faster rate, thus violating the EULA's prohibition. After all, we're talking about instant transfers here, not waiting til the guy sees it, drags it, and drops it. In doing this, they are in violation of the EULA. Also, it says that the devs have the right to ban any account at any time: (25) CCP reserves the right to close, temporarily or permanently, any userÆs account without advance notice as we deem necessary. Furthermore, we reserve the right to delete all user accounts or inventory of characters as warranted. (26) We reserve the right to ban any user from the game without refund or compensation. Thus, it doesn't matter if they are breaking the EULA, CCP could still get them for obvious exploitation of game mechanics (which macros do). - Bunyip
zoolkhan Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.05.04 08:58:00 - [25] i could now say: i will remove the bots hoho - vote me or i can say: this annoys me personally since years. most of us work hard for their ISK w/o macros, lose ship, invent clever business ideas and some of us get rich, and some of us stay poor (look at me, i have 30 mil on account) i understand that from ccp POV it is sometimes not easy to tell who is a "farmer" and who not. Its easy to call for their heads, but its not easy to collect legal evidence. Of course, ccp could kick players base on guesses or potential blackmailing of a concurrent corporation/alliance. Should they do it? certainly not. Do they have the manpower to monitor all hubs? mind you, the crowd insists that ccp doesnt enter the game themself... Leaves us with teh conclusion, the only reasonable way would be an automatic one with a detection rate that is very high, to avoid kicking out the odd upright player that is just very good at mining. That is a difficult task. The CSM can, and will (that much is sure no matter who gets voted in) address this issue ever and ever again as long it exist. And ccp will or will not listen, but even if they listen it does not guarantee they know a technical solution to the problem. if a pattern can be recognised, and an automatism would start to be reliable you can bet your boots on the fact that the macro-programmes will adaptm and add a randomizer routine to it... and so on and so on. however, of course ccp needs to be pushed harder to assign more ressources to address this topic as it is a danger for the entire "free market experiment" as they would like to call it to the press. a) why are ISK sellers not facing legal measurements? you see the bloody adds even on listed fansites b) no follow up / transparency / confirmatin from a GM to a report filed by a player you get a "thank you" and next month that character you report is still logged in and harvesting stuff like that can be addressed and will be.
Inanna Zuni Minmatar The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.05.04 12:24:00 - [26] Originally by: Tac Ginaz Farmers found in high sec space clogging the nodes (I've seen 220+ farmers in one system at a time) doing industrial missions 24/7 affect the player market dramatically by injecting a massive amount of ISK into the market and driving cost and inflation of items up. ... What will candidates do on this issue? Although I and I'm sure many many others have petitioned people proclaiming to sell isk and who we find clearly macro mining and mission farming, it is clear that the problem is difficult to solve satisfactorily. The issues are three-fold; first finding the pilot (and player behind that pilot) who is abusing the system, secondly, being legally certain that they are misusing the game and the game mechanics in this way, and lastly, determining what action will actually work. Whenever we see the apparent behaviour of macroers we use our experience of how 'normal' pilots behave to determine that we have found a macroer. Thing is, we can't guarantee in all cases that we are right in our presumption. Never talking on local isn't always a confirmation (they might have very poor english language skills, for example). If something walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck then it probably is a duck ... but it might not be. And that is that second issue; CCP can easily ban an account, but if they started banning every account which gets accused of a misdemeanor then not only is the possibility of alliances gaming the system for in-game ends, but someone who was wrongly accused would, quite rightly, be more than a little annoyed that they had been banned from the game they paid to play. And then there is the issue of what to do about it. Simply banning an account doesn't stop them coming back moments later with a new (possibly even stolen) credit card. Because the isk don't actually leave EVE - and nobody (even the IRS!) can trace every transaction that could be related out of game - you can't 'tag' the cash they produce and stop that. Which leaves the sole option that there must be a game mechanic to stop this activity; it isn't valid to have suicide ganking of every minor or pilot on a mission, but some sort of CONCORD-authorised 'be on the lookout for' might work. I would very much like to see a roundtable discussion on how to recognise the macroers and create an effective ingame solution as one of the earlier topics in the life of the CSM. IZ
Sir Substance	Posted - 2008.05.04 13:14:00 - [27] Originally by: Tac Ginaz Candidates, in one day any person can easily get the names of more than a hundred of these accounts just by staying in one system and watching them go back and forth for hours. you fail at identifying farming bots. i do this constantly in my hulk while i do my homework. such a method could result in legitimate accounts being banned.
count sporkula	Posted - 2008.05.04 13:25:00 - [28] how about this. given that other programs are detecting if they are running twice (diablo 2 for example) why then wouldn't CCP purchase a few of these macro programs and write an anti-program like behavior if the client where to detect that program (kind of like a mini anti-virus program). if other programs are quite capable of doing this why hasn't CCP implemented such a thing? do you think a similar approach could be useful? or do you think this would be counter productive for them and/or cause too many player issues?
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.04 13:31:00 - [29] Originally by: Inanna Zuni Whenever we see the apparent behaviour of macroers we use our experience of how 'normal' pilots behave to determine that we have found a macroer. Not me. As a programmer, I've made a lot of stuff including relatively complex NPC AIs for my Ultima Online server (to be specific, henchmen AIs to assist the player in various flavours which responded to text commands). Later on as a fun project I made a bot for Guild Wars that would fight in special event 'costume brawl' PVP matches. It actually managed to win a lot of the times. Disclaimer: I have not used the bot in Guild Wars beyond the initial test runs, and I have never botted or automated Eve Online in any fashion. Anyway, to get to the point, I know how complex and relatively indistinguishable bots can be from human players. However, that does not mean that there are no ways to flush them out. But I think the game masters should work with the players on this one: Players reporting suspiciuos individuals and game masters sifting through the log files. Yes, innocent players get banned, and we need good support to make sure that the appeals are processed in hours. I have actually been on the receiving end of an incorrect ban in Guild Wars, and immediately provided support with evidence with which they could determine I was not botting or exploiting. They unbanned me in less than 2 hours. I think the fair game we get as a result of lack of bots is worth any inconvenience suffered through incorrect bans. Originally by: Inanna Zuni I would very much like to see a roundtable discussion on how to recognise the macroers and create an effective ingame solution as one of the earlier topics in the life of the CSM. I definately agree. This is a serious issue, which has a significant impact on the game. I think both CCP and the honest players benefit immensely if the CSM would spend some time looking into this.
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.04 13:38:00 - [30] Originally by: count sporkula how about this. given that other programs are detecting if they are running twice (diablo 2 for example) Easily taken out of the executable with a simple text editor. Plus there are many players that run multiple clients legitemately. Originally by: count sporkula why then wouldn't CCP purchase a few of these macro programs and write an anti-program like behavior if the client where to detect that program (kind of like a mini anti-virus program). if other programs are quite capable of doing this why hasn't CCP implemented such a thing? do you think a similar approach could be useful? or do you think this would be counter productive for them and/or cause too many player issues? I'm not eager of having a warden/punkbuster spy tool running on my system that monitors what I'm doing. As much as I love to see the bots gone, I think this is a too severe invasion of privacy. It's like DRM, there are enough ways to fool even them, and in the end only legitimate users are harmed while the malicous ones continue on their merry way. There are other ways to get rid of the bots.

count sporkula	Posted - 2008.05.04 14:06:00 - [31] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Originally by: count sporkula how about this. given that other programs are detecting if they are running twice (diablo 2 for example) Easily taken out of the executable with a simple text editor. Plus there are many players that run multiple clients legitemately. . i understand this but you can setup an integrity check. and i was only using this as a very basic idea as the names of a few others escape me at the moment.
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.04 14:22:00 - [32] Originally by: count sporkula i understand this but you can setup an integrity check. and i was only using this as a very basic idea as the names of a few others escape me at the moment. Ah okay. Ideas are always welcome
Bunyip Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:18:00 - [33] I use a 5 step process to identify macroers....a task which I'm not sure a program could duplicate. I'll list it below for anybody dedicated to destroying macroers. 1) Mining in a group (Macroers nearly always mine in groups, and if a player is using a macro, he'd probably be alone) 2) Personal Info (Macro groups normally are born on the same day, and have mostly nonsense names) 3) Convo Request (If the request isn't answered in 30 seconds, the person is either AFK or a macroer) 4) Bump (If they're not macroers, they're gonna get upset) 5) Canflip (I do this only if the other tests fail. This is the last straw usually if the above test gives incorrect results) Hope this helps. I've reported over 100 macroers using the above testing process, but haven't seen any results. - Bunyip
zoolkhan Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:32:00 - [34] Edited by: zoolkhan on 04/05/2008 16:34:36 Originally by: Bunyip I use a 5 step process to identify macroers....a task which I'm not sure a program could duplicate. I'll list it below for anybody dedicated to destroying macroers. 1) Mining in a group (Macroers nearly always mine in groups, and if a player is using a macro, he'd probably be alone) 2) Personal Info (Macro groups normally are born on the same day, and have mostly nonsense names) 3) Convo Request (If the request isn't answered in 30 seconds, the person is either AFK or a macroer) 4) Bump (If they're not macroers, they're gonna get upset) 5) Canflip (I do this only if the other tests fail. This is the last straw usually if the above test gives incorrect results) Hope this helps. I've reported over 100 macroers using the above testing process, but haven't seen any results. - Bunyip yes, these are strong indications - but non of these is proof in order for ccp to do somthing there need to be proof. nonsens characternames created same day, are absolutely EULA compliant. Nothing anyone can do about it. peopel who autoreject are frequent, i mean normal pilots. especially in pvp they hate to be convoed during battle - no proof of a macro bumping, yeah as you said - he might be gandhi in a barge, or afk - no crime, no violation in that, nothing CCP can do so a program could certainly do the same test and generate a "likehood" value. but even if all factors hit 100% - none of them is a violation against law, no legal reason to take legal steps. -- if one can measure a respons of only milliseconds like - cargo bay full, unload to can took less than 0.5 sec , then we start getting closer to a proof, however - as soon that detection method is used, the macro-programmer just adds a random delay to it and the proof is gone. if you consider a bump as a strong indicator, then teh macroer just adds a bump-response scripts that flame at people randomly from databases of more than a few hundred flame sentences have already been used in 1980s modem/bbs scene before you and me had internet. I cough operated such a thing :) All i am saying is, CCP must obey the law. If they dont, the scandal in the press would be desastrous. As long they cant see what client side code is beeing executed, they can only act base up on good or not so good guessing :(( you wont like to read these lines, but i am a realist also now.
Ma Zhiqiang Minmatar Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:33:00 - [35] Even though I don't have any technical knowledge of how codes etc works, I feel this is a strong issue and that CCP should put more effort into it. It's a MMO game. The concept is to play together with other players. If you want to play with yourself, there are other ways and games for it.
zoolkhan Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:36:00 - [36] Originally by: Ma Zhiqiang Even though I don't have any technical knowledge of how codes etc works, I feel this is a strong issue and that CCP should put more effort into it. It's a MMO game. The concept is to play together with other players. If you want to play with yourself, there are other ways and games for it. i read this very same sentence now teh 2nd time in a different thread. Schouldnt you be trying to hack in individual responses instead of a template you just copy? :-)
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:43:00 - [37] Originally by: Venkul Mul So you are as usual saying "They are macro because I say they are macro, but really I mean that they are sweatshow workers, but I am not sure they sell isk so they maybe are farming for themselves but that should be disallow too"? No I am not saying that they are macros, I am saying I have reason to believe they are macros, since macro users run on timers that show a predictable pattern or like a program that runs 23x7. A sweatshop worker is harder to spot since they can not be timed like a macro, though they show the same odd behaviour of running the same thing 23x7 in the same systems, for weeks/months on end. Now the one that uses the timed pattern is more than likely using a program/macro to gain an unfair advantage, and in violation of the EULA 7-A-3. While the sweatshop worker is not in violation of the EULA/TOS before they sell the ISK and/or items. Originally by: Venkul Mul Exactly what you want to cure? RMT or people getting isk doing mission using multiple accounts, without the use of macro (maybe the G15 or whatever board, that is a allowed tool)? Now RMT is a big problem, and creating better ways to spot them, and better communications with the GM team when it comes to combating RMT is needed, as well added awareness for the general public that supporting them is bad. And at the same time calming the community that CCP is doing more that is seen. The G15 Keyboard is currently allowed, and it does not replicate mouse movement/clicks. It can run keystrokes like F1-F8, and in my opinion is in violation off the EULA 7-A-3. Originally by: Venkul Mul Seeing how most people like it much more if the target cry and swear I would say nothing in local. It would only make me a more rewarding target. Nice from you to admit that you are guessing. So simply you like the rewards of killing high sec mission runners, no problem with that, but don't cover it under the veil of a holy crusade, it is not that. Hmm okay, we donÆt invade all missions we (UCAM) comes across, nor do we engage all miners we see. We do engage those we believe are farmers, the others we do leave alone, and if they talk in local or convo us when we enter and are generally cool and all that we do leave them alone. My corp and alliance view our self as a high sec ôpirateö alliance with selected targets, we do not view it as a ôholy crusadeö.
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:44:00 - [38] Originally by: Bunyip I use a 5 step process to identify macroers....a task which I'm not sure a program could duplicate. I'll list it below for anybody dedicated to destroying macroers. 1) Mining in a group (Macroers nearly always mine in groups, and if a player is using a macro, he'd probably be alone) 2) Personal Info (Macro groups normally are born on the same day, and have mostly nonsense names) 3) Convo Request (If the request isn't answered in 30 seconds, the person is either AFK or a macroer) 4) Bump (If they're not macroers, they're gonna get upset) 5) Canflip (I do this only if the other tests fail. This is the last straw usually if the above test gives incorrect results) Hope this helps. I've reported over 100 macroers using the above testing process, but haven't seen any results. - Bunyip there are no 100% way for players to prove anything. it takes a GM to do that ;)
Ma Zhiqiang Minmatar Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:46:00 - [39] As I said. I don't have any technical knowledge to say what could be improved. One idea would be to not allow anyone flying anything but frigates unless you're in a corp, so an anti-macro corp or alliance at least could declare war on them. I have read some things about the client code being leaked and that many have used it to build very complex macros etc. This is were my knowledge ends. I don't know anything about how to improve code etc to protect it from being hacked, since all things seems to be hackable for the ones who really wants to. This issue also ties to the discussions what information the client sends to CCP and what CCP reads out of it. There could maybe be some improvements there.
Havlentia Castigatrix Gallente The Avalon Foundation Delta.Green	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:08:00 - [40] Originally by: zoolkhan yes, these are strong indications - but non of these is proof in order for ccp to do somthing there need to be proof. CCP has evidence, and it's called an SQL dump. I think you really need to disconnect away from the promotional PR that CCP does in terms of 'RMT is bad, mmm'kay', and understand that they have a vested interest in keeping the number of paying accounts up. The 'remedy' to RMT mentioned in the recent Dev Blog was 'buy moar GTCs', which is essentially shifting the narcotics users into doctor shopping, and could possibly be fueling the problem by removing the necessity to do more than churn the profits of your farming into more gametime. A 'legitimate' account will have continued skill training. It will have varied activity, it will move about, it will buy stuff, it will initiate and receive chat requests, it will log on at different times to the people that it gangs with frequently. It will rat, it will take on missions, it will redeem LPs. Hell, you could follow large transactions through the system itself and start directly flagging laundering accounts to watch them closely. In other words, there is a running log that a turing test could be applied to, and then a soft ban applied pending contact from a CCP rep. IF they have the will. So far, not seeing the will, just some fairly empty handwaving.

Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:13:00 - [41] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Not me. As a programmer, I've made a lot of stuff including relatively complex NPC AIs for my Ultima Online server (to be specific, henchmen AIs to assist the player in various flavours which responded to text commands). The biggest problem of giving any control in the anti macro crusade to player beyond signaling the suspected macro is that no one of them will ever admit they can be wrong (it is exactly what you have just done "Not me"). So if a suspected macro is still there they will say "CCP is doing nothing", "they keep them here because they pay", "I will kill that damned macro". No one will say "CCP has investigated suspect guy A, if they have found none it mean that probably he is not running a macro." The mildest reaction from a player that don't see a suspect that still mine after some day is to report him again, and again, and again till he find a GM that first ban and then investigate. A more probable reaction is a whining post in forum and suiciding the player or finding someone that will suicide him. That is why I strongly disagree with any form of vigilante action.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:24:00 - [42] Originally by: Bunyip I use a 5 step process to identify macroers....a task which I'm not sure a program could duplicate. I'll list it below for anybody dedicated to destroying macroers. 1) Mining in a group (Macroers nearly always mine in groups, and if a player is using a macro, he'd probably be alone) 2) Personal Info (Macro groups normally are born on the same day, and have mostly nonsense names) 3) Convo Request (If the request isn't answered in 30 seconds, the person is either AFK or a macroer) 4) Bump (If they're not macroers, they're gonna get upset) 5) Canflip (I do this only if the other tests fail. This is the last straw usually if the above test gives incorrect results) Hope this helps. I've reported over 100 macroers using the above testing process, but haven't seen any results. - Bunyip 1) I have mined in group as a corp and alone , very weak indicator as most corp and players with multiple accounts would be mining in group. There are skill that increase yeld if mining in group so requests and offer for extra miners for a gang are common in the starting players corp. Offering to lead a mining gang (and giving the foreman bonus) is even a thing several people in the NPC corp channel do as a little favor for new players. 2) A better indicator, but a player that has started several accounts with the intention to use them for mining (no need of a macro, simply a PC capable of running multiple accounts) could have started them at the same time. It would make easier to change skills. And as most players fantasy is not so great that is the origin of the miner1, miner 2 ecc guys. 3) Wildly variable replies there, Leandro (one of your fellow CSM candidate) for example has auto reject enabled. I would reply if I feel I am of the right humor, but usually I will check your bio before and what you have there will change if I will reply or not. 4) Again, people do that for giggles and love to get angry replies, so I will never reply or contact you unless I have seen something in local that give me the impression that you are on a anti macro crusade. Then I feel that most player in anti macro crusades are totally hypocrites and use it as an exscuse to harass miners, so probably I will not contact you the same. 5) Same as 4 and 5, you can convince me to leave the belt, not to contact or speak with you, much more probable that I will block you.
Strak Yogorn Amarr Mind Warpers