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A question for the candy dates

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Author	Topic
Lindsay Fox Disciples of Comus	Posted - 2008.05.04 00:33:00 - [1] I am one of the cynical types who doesn't think that the CSM has much chance of doing anything very much to help with player -> CCP communication and is really just a PR exercise by CCP. However, it seems to me that with the act of visiting CCP you may well be in a good position to improve information flow in the other direction. A candidate who will work to address the following points will get my vote: - Lag. I want CCP to be honest & open about this issue. I would like them to admit that large fleet battles are horribly broken, and how much they honestly expect to be able to improve this in the coming months with infiniband etc. - Desync. CCP needs to admit this exists, and they need to tell us the gory technical details of how it occurs, why, and what they are doing about it. Many Eve subscribers are developers or networking professionals, we can probably understand most of it. - Server Logs & Petitions. CCP needs to tell us exactly why their logs never reveal much. What are they logging? How often are these pruned? When a GM says 'Our logs show nothing', what have they been looking at, and what are their guidelines for how much time to spend looking? Do senior GMs have access to more detailed info than the front-liners? - Bugs. Why are certain bugs not being addressed, for example all the UI windows jumping around on many session change events? Something like this that has affected almost everybody since Trinity was deployed warrants proper disclosure because not fixing it is inexcusable imho. I think that the atmosphere is secrecy and mystery that CCP has built around these and other issues is doing their reputation a great deal of harm and leads to much of the anger and bitterness pervading the forums. If they can just learn to be more up-front, I believe it will benefit all parties. We are mostly adults, we can handle the truth. I think that the CSM has a reasonable chance of getting more info about these specific issues, and possibly even changing the culture of secrecy at CCP. When you are out getting drunk with CCP people you will form friendships that will hopefully lead to a level of trust that could precipitate a more honest and open approach to dealing with customers. What do you think?
TornSoul BIG	Posted - 2008.05.04 00:54:00 - [2] Edited by: TornSoul on 04/05/2008 00:55:08 Originally by: Lindsay Fox I think that the CSM has a reasonable chance of getting more info about these specific issues, and possibly even changing the culture of secrecy at CCP. Finally, some non-game mechanics issues brought forward (server logs / bugs not beeing adressed). I'm particularly "hunting" for these sort of issues, as it seems most others are solely focused on game mechanics issues (and generally improving the game). But theres a whole bunch of other issues that doesnt directly relate to game mechanics stuff that needs to be adressed as well imo, as it relates to the overall experience with the game. Part reason for my campaign motto of "The BIG picture". --------- Let me address your points (would help alot if you numbered them, for ease of reference) 1 - Lag I think CCP has been pretty honest and open about this actually... And I seem to recall a post as well where they went into some vague guesswork about the effect of the infiband (the best they can do atm). 2 - Desync Uhm... CCP has "admitted" to the existence of this, and have several times asked for help tracking it down... (detalied bug reports with logs). 3 - Server logs & petitions Completly agreee, we need more info on this. The constant "our logs shows nothing" responses really gets on peoples nerves, especially as it's often seen as a "brush of", as we don't know whats what... More transparency is needed. 4 - Bugs. Agree again. A large part of the answer is ofc due to prioritites. And this is one place where the CSM can (hopefully) make a difference, in changing CCP's view on what has priority and what hasnt. TornSoul campaign website : It's about "The BIG picture"
Dierdra Vaal Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.05.04 01:07:00 - [3] I think most, if not all CSM candidates support the issues you brought up, Lindsay Fox. Naturally it would be good to get more insight in the technical workings of the game, and I do think this is a side of the CSM we must not forget. Even if CCP is trying to change the CSMs role, I think the representatives can still pressure CCP to be more open about these issues. I particulary agree with you on the Logs part, I think it would be very interesting to know what CCP logs - though I'm not sure if this is information they want to reveal. Afterall, knowing what gets logged might help cheaters to avoid detection.
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.05.04 03:10:00 - [4] On the subject of bugs, it's quite possible that in some specific cases the people responsible for that part of the game's code aren't employed at CCP anymore, and I can speak from personal experience when I say it's that much harder to work with Other People's CodeÖ than it is to work with your own. Not that that should necessarily be an excuse in a professional environment, but it's an example of what could be the case, although at the end of the day it's still up to CCP to disclose things like that, and I can understand why they wouldn't. /Ben
Lindsay Fox Disciples of Comus	Posted - 2008.05.04 04:16:00 - [5] Originally by: TornSoul 1 - Lag I think CCP has been pretty honest and open about this actually... And I seem to recall a post as well where they went into some vague guesswork about the effect of the infiband (the best they can do atm). 2 - Desync Uhm... CCP has "admitted" to the existence of this, and have several times asked for help tracking it down... (detalied bug reports with logs). Sorry, I guess I didn't explain myself very well... I think CCP could be telling us a lot more than they have. Why do systems many jumps away suffer when there is a huge blob fest in one system? If it's because they are sharing the same node, why doesn't ccp bring down the node and split it up when these sorts of things are likely to occur? For example, this year systems such as 319 and PR- in delve have consistently been host to many massive fights; have these systems had their own dedicated nodes during this time? If not, why not? Seeing as massive lag during large fights is a certainty, why doesn't CCP put a hard limit on the number of people allowed in a system as a temporary measure until the hardware has been upgraded? How about some code that detects imminent lag and starts kicking people from both sides of the fight until the lag is tolerable? Sounds crazy but I think it's possible to code the same logic an FC would use; first kick noob ships, shuttles, then T1 frigs, then start kicking fighters and drones, etc etc. Again, this may be a terrible idea but is it really worse than having everyone in the system suffer ten-minute lag? How about some code that stops the inevitable relogging of hundreds of people that just exacerbates the situation? Why not randomly log them in a few jumps away? I'm not expecting miracle fixes, and the limiting of people in a system may be an awful idea, but I'm sure they are discussing these things in-house; I would like CSM members to try and pry these details out into the open. CCP may think that publicising these details would lead to hideous forum whine-fests, but I think that they would be surprised...the people who play Eve and have technical knowledge would be able to defend them better against the whiners if only the full technical details and the logic behind their decision-making were revealed. I am a long-time advocate of open-source philosophies and it seems that CCP is more like Apple or Microsoft. If they could just learn to 'let go' and air some dirty laundry I beleive that their relations with customers would improve greatly. I hope that the CSM would work on this aspect of CCP/Player interaction.
Max Torps Gallente eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.05.04 09:03:00 - [6] Edited by: Max Torps on 04/05/2008 09:05:27 Originally by: Lindsay Fox - Lag. I want CCP to be honest & open about this issue. I would like them to admit that large fleet battles are horribly broken, and how much they honestly expect to be able to improve this in the coming months with infiniband etc. I totally agree. I was also there in 319 and PR-, 49- and other systems where it was simply a slide show. I will be asking questions regarding this you can be sure of that. I too would like to know what intermediate remedial action can be taken and if temporary fixes are available why not action them sooner? I'm not donning my tin foil hat yet though until more is revealed, there may be technical reasons behind not fixing certain areas but it is a valid point that we players deserve to know more and CCP should release more information. Originally by: Lindsay Fox - Desync. CCP needs to admit this exists, and they need to tell us the gory technical details of how it occurs, why, and what they are doing about it. Many Eve subscribers are developers or networking professionals, we can probably understand most of it. They have already stated it exist but I do believe that some technical bulletins released regularly by CCP might be the way forward here. I also will be bringing this idea to CCP if elected. Originally by: Lindsay Fox - Server Logs & Petitions. CCP needs to tell us exactly why their logs never reveal much. What are they logging? How often are these pruned? When a GM says 'Our logs show nothing', what have they been looking at, and what are their guidelines for how much time to spend looking? Do senior GMs have access to more detailed info than the front-liners? A good point and very valid. Another question I will ask and pursue vigorously if elected. Originally by: Lindsay Fox - Bugs. Why are certain bugs not being addressed, for example all the UI windows jumping around on many session change events? Something like this that has affected almost everybody since Trinity was deployed warrants proper disclosure because not fixing it is inexcusable imho. As part of my initial campaign statements I mentioned that I am ITIL qualified and that change and release management need looking at seriously. The boot.ini incident etc were what I was referring to there but ITIL can be applied to the whole process within a game, from players complaining about faults to the priority of bug fixes, incident management and problem management. I can bring a lot of suggestions to CCP in this area such as streamlining processes and information flow. Originally by: Lindsay Fox I think that the atmosphere is secrecy and mystery that CCP has built around these and other issues is doing their reputation a great deal of harm and leads to much of the anger and bitterness pervading the forums. If they can just learn to be more up-front, I believe it will benefit all parties. While I agree with you I think given the nature of some player actions CCP are hedging their bets and being careful about releasing information on (as just an example), what trips up a node, to prevent this being done deliberately. I dfo believe though that generally information flow can be increased in this area. I've also made a statement in this thread some time ago: Quote: A non gameplay issue (but affects gameplay) is Customer Service. I'm sorry I can't stop typing! Petition queue times and quality of responses need improvement but I'm unsure if that lies within the scope of the CSM. I'm fairly certain that GM's are very hardworking people and get a lot of flack however some stress and tension on both sides can be avoided by introducing a Service Level Agreement where customers know what response times to expect and GM's have targets to achieve. That's one possible solution, there are probably more. Overall Lindsay, I agree with you and will pursue this if elected.
Jess Ica Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.04 09:30:00 - [7] Hello Lindsay, these are good questions and i wrote them even down for the "IF" case But u are absolutly right about the thing that maybe the CSM's can't do big of a deal but at least in those few days we might have a chance to send the x hunderd time a message to CCP to be more cooperative with their players and not that hidden and unrevealing! It would be already a great deal if we could get CCP more to listen and respond open to questions and issues we have and ask and would surely improve the trust in CCP stuff. Biggest problem i see is that CCP is not neccesarily bad or such but they have some kind of politic or problem to talk with their clients. This would surely be 1 of the issues i would add to my "to do list" Bring the players needs of comunication and maybe even a wink towards cooperation.
zoolkhan Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.05.04 09:34:00 - [8] Originally by: Lindsay Fox I am one of the cynical types who doesn't think that the CSM has much chance of doing anything very much to help with player <...cut..> What do you think? Dear mister Lind say fox, a candy date is speaking. The paintpoints you list here have been discussed in many threads before, and of course any of the candidate would use any chance that appears to address those obvious and painful things such as "lag" and the lack of transparency admitting its existance. It may be that your cynical ego is right, and the CSM is a farce. Time will tell. I would appreciate though if you give it a try first. You would not have posted here if you would not have a small trace of hope left that there is some positive influence the CSM could have. technically i can tell you in general that some bugs are fixed prior other due to prioritisation based on severity if it is reproduceable in the lab painfactor - how many queries have been received on an issue vs another issue technical do-ability to fix it, perhaps an underlaying code structure needs to be altered with cross effects on other things.. long run testing required etc so generally i would assume ccp IS not intentionally ignoring bugs, but maybe unable to address them as fast as we would like them to. software engineers good in game design dont grow on trees (not even in bangalore) bottomline: give it a chance, and some time - your frustration is my frustration that ensures that the pain will be carried to iceland, and perhaps ignored there. perhaps not.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.04 11:43:00 - [9] Originally by: Lindsay Fox Lag. I want CCP to be honest & open about this issue. I would like them to admit that large fleet battles are horribly broken, and how much they honestly expect to be able to improve this in the coming months with infiniband etc. They DO admit lag is an issue and that fleet battles are screwy. They DID explain why battles far away influence other systems (being on the same node), and your other proposals of "shutting down / switching the node" is exactly what infiniband is the first step of. Quote: Desync. CCP needs to admit this exists, and they need to tell us the gory technical details of how it occurs, why, and what they are doing about it. Many Eve subscribers are developers or networking professionals, we can probably understand most of it. They HAVE admited it exists. They even ran tests on both TQ and SISI to determine where exactly it comes from. But yes, it still occurs, and they haven't made public the results of their tests. Quote: Server Logs & Petitions. CCP needs to tell us exactly why their logs never reveal much. What are they logging? How often are these pruned? When a GM says 'Our logs show nothing', what have they been looking at, and what are their guidelines for how much time to spend looking? Do senior GMs have access to more detailed info than the front-liners? That was the old copy-paste line, until several people (me included) have asked them to re-formulate. The current one-liner reply should be something akin to : "Our logs show nothing that would substantiate your claims that it might have been a server-side bug, or a known and detectable client-side bug. Due to published policy, we can not reimburse losses due to lag, network instability or client-side errors not due to known bugs in our client". As for the rest of the allegations... the guys are swamped with reimbursable petitions for things they are not allowed to reimburse for, so many of them that the only way to cope is to summarily dismiss all those that seem to be unjustified... if you know for sure you are justified, keep it open and escalate it if needed. Quote: Bugs. Why are certain bugs not being addressed, for example all the UI windows jumping around on many session change events? Something like this that has affected almost everybody since Trinity was deployed warrants proper disclosure because not fixing it is inexcusable imho. As much as it pains me to admit (and annoys me as a client they haven't fixed it yet), from a developer's standpoint leaving such bugs in place for a while is justifiable... if there are other, "hidden" (from the general publinc... and nasty) bugs that need more immediate attention. Quote: I think that the atmosphere is secrecy and mystery that CCP has built around these and other issues is doing their reputation a great deal of harm and leads to much of the anger and bitterness pervading the forums. If they can just learn to be more up-front, I believe it will benefit all parties. We are mostly adults, we can handle the truth. Personally, I would wholeheartedly agree... with that first part. Although I'm not so sure about the second part, given the recent forum activity... it does look like the "childish" (be it real age or mental age) population is taking over, and that no, apparently, we can not handle the truth (starting with the T20 incident, the way it was handled and so on... up to the recently flamed carrier changes that were being considered).
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.04 15:28:00 - [10] Originally by: Lindsay Fox - Lag. I want CCP to be honest & open about this issue. I would like them to admit that large fleet battles are horribly broken, and how much they honestly expect to be able to improve this in the coming months with infiniband etc. - Desync. CCP needs to admit this exists, and they need to tell us the gory technical details of how it occurs, why, and what they are doing about it. Many Eve subscribers are developers or networking professionals, we can probably understand most of it. I wanted to respond to these 2 points... Lag - I 2 box, 2 account on 2 boxes at times doing the same (or similar) things... I have a combat oriented character and an industrial character... When the story line agent gives my industrial character a combat mission, I bring the combat guy along to do the fighting... I can honestly say, the lag for my combat character is much worse than the industrial... but then, the computer he is on is not near as good as this one... Most lag is computer or internet related and can't be fixed by CCP... large fleet battles, like missions with a lot of extra cr... Stuff... in them has the added problem of CCP getting all the relevant data to every pilot. Desync is another issue... I am a developer by trade, I have spent days, along with other developers with far more then my 8 years of experience, looking for an issue, but to fix it, you need to find it... to find it you need to recreate it... CCP has admitted the Desync issue exists, they have run tests (Did you help with the tests?) but until they can recreate and find the issue, it's just Easter-egging (guessing at possible fixes) I have no doubt that they will find the issue and fix it... if it can be fixed. Unlike the code I work on, I doubt CCP can add traces and logs throughout the game code for testing purposes (worse, I have had issues where the logging code hid the problems)

Ma Zhiqiang Minmatar Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.04 15:36:00 - [11] I don't have any technical knowledge about these thigns, but I have experienced the problems with lag and desync. I feel CCP must be more open about these issues and put more resources in fixing/commenting them.
zoolkhan Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.05.04 15:58:00 - [12] Originally by: Ma Zhiqiang I don't have any technical knowledge about these thigns, but I have experienced the problems with lag and desync. I feel CCP must be more open about these issues and put more resources in fixing/commenting them. absolutely no doubt. i guess all candidates would agree on this. quality before quantity, of course that means less profit for ccp in the short term.

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