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Call'Da Poleece
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Posted - 2008.05.05 12:04:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Matrixcvd
i doubt there will be a significant adjustment of speed, maybe for the uber upper levels of 20k/s + but other than that, ave speeds for nanohacs and recons are 2.5-4k/s with vagas at 7 so those arent high enough really, the goal is to catch and kill what you want and its a pretty even match right now
Heehee, upper levels are 20km/s and above now? .. I suppose mid level speed is about 10 to 14km/s?
Leave speed mods the way they are, just make snakes work so that for every speed mod you fit you knock 50% off the snakes effectiveness ... similarly with gang mods |
Buyerr
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Posted - 2008.05.05 12:05:00 -
[32]
sigh... normally the insane speed boost a mwd gives is made up for by the boost in sig redius.. although when nanoed the 500% speed boost is really not 500% but more like 5000% and the sig increase still only 500%, because of the adding % to the active instead of the base attributes on the ships, which have been the reason behind any really overpowered setup though the times of eve.
if they had just added the bonus to the base and not the active, you could still have the possibility of using 2 mwd's, 8 heatsink and tachyons, etc etc.
since the bonus would not be insanely overpowered and actually quite balanced a bs wanting to set 2 mwd's on well go ahead half your cap is gone because of the minus to the base cap and your 150m/s (base on the fastest bs's)would give you a joy of 750m/s per mwd =1500m/s if you fully nanoed it then the snake implants giving lets say 50% for the easy calculation, on base speed that would be 75m/s =1575m/s + lets just go insane and say 8times 20% speed increase, on base that is 30m/s per 30*8=240m/s in total a max nanoed bs with full snake and 8 times speed mids and DUAL MWD would go
1815m/s which i would say is quite balanced for a battleships that now have a sig on around 400.000
while a inty would still go VERY fast without problems, but still not overpowered fast.
600m/s base = 6600 as max around with dual mwd.
with single mwd around 3600 m/s.
which is a reasonable balanced speed for a inty with it's signature making it possible to hit with light weaponry and impossible with mediums and higher.
well it would give a MUCH more diversity in sitting since taking that one speed mod of will not bring your speed down by insane numbers, but only taking it down by the balanced number giving you the opportunity to make an actual choice of 10 more dps or 120m/s more.
instead of as it is now 1400m/s more or 10dps, which is not even a choice on a speed tank...
well as i have stated every time i get the chance, if the devs had a well functioning brain the % would always be calculated on the base of the ship (actually with resistance the resistance increase is calculated on the base dps. meaning taking a 25% resistance on a ship with 50% resist will not give you 75% resistance, but making the attacker give 25% less dps then he would else, meaning his dps is now 50% lets say that his start dps is 100 then his actual is 50dps, and 25% of 50 is 12,5. which means his actual dps is now =37,5dps which means the resist needs to be 62,5% to have that 25% increase.. so there is one place they have done it correctly, i don't know why they haven't done this all around properly because of lack of competent programmers or developers who knows but it is darn stupid that they haven't taken this in all aspect and letting it be calculated on the base instead of the active ship number (since resistance then would hit 100% and be invulnerable quite fast XD)
I declare war on stupidity |
Dianeces
Minmatar
The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 12:42:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Shadowsword
I did a small test with the tracking simulator. Assuming max skills and the use of an heavy beam II (that has a higher tracking than a 250mm rail or 720mm arty by far), and 2 tracking computers II with tracking scripts, you have at best 50% chance to hit a vaggabond orbiting at 6km/sec, and those hit will be on the "glancing" side.
Use short-range guns loaded with T2 long range ammo, muppet.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.05 12:53:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Shadowsword
I did a small test with the tracking simulator. Assuming max skills and the use of an heavy beam II (that has a higher tracking than a 250mm rail or 720mm arty by far), and 2 tracking computers II with tracking scripts, you have at best 50% chance to hit a vaggabond orbiting at 6km/sec, and those hit will be on the "glancing" side.
Use short-range guns loaded with T2 long range ammo, muppet.
Only enough range for pulse lasers. And 2 tracking computers + tracking scripts on Heavy Beams actually puts tracking on the beams fairly close to that on the pulses.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Amastat
Caldari
Omegatech
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Posted - 2008.05.05 13:02:00 -
[35]
To many of the repliers - thanks, that puts more light on the answer to my question.
If a link to the statements made by CCP around this topic could be provided, that would be great.
Would anyone have any idea what the degree of these stacking penalties we are talking about are?
-Thanks
On a editorial note:
I personally am not moved to badly by them knocking down speed or not, however I do think a few of the ships that are at insane invul speeds are way too overpowered - and personally it is in no way at all going to kill these pilots to lose the ability to go so much over invul speeds.
The nerf would destroy the Cerberus's abilities to speed tank AT ALL - however most times IMO it is rather stupid to bother speed tanking a Cerberus even now. I have near maxed navigation skills, so I usually don't push for speed on a Cerb because there is ALWAYS someone else who goes twice as fast as me and puts a web on me, therefore the Cerb pops. I would only ever screw around with a speed fit if I had a skirmish link in my group, and/or I had snakes - which happens next to never.
As to the more faster ships out there - they are usually way into excess if they want to be. It will not kill them to lose the ability to go several km/s over the invul barrier.
If any ships are to hurt from any of this it would probably be Caldari Interceptors, maybe HIC's, and the few nano-bats or nano-capitals we see here and there.
The counter-ships to nanohac's will lose speed too - so it's not going to be entirely as if nanohac pilots are going to lose all their speed and their counterparts are going to completely *****them - most of them are speed fit too, what do you think they have on their lows? :P
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"All warfare is based on deception... we must seem unable...seem inactive...and crush him " - Sun Tzu, the |
Dianeces
Minmatar
The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 13:15:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Goumindong
Only enough range for pulse lasers. And 2 tracking computers + tracking scripts on Heavy Beams actually puts tracking on the beams fairly close to that on the pulses.
Can you use your math to show us all how the Tempest is better than the Mega 1v1 because of Hail?
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Gimpb
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Posted - 2008.05.05 13:29:00 -
[37]
They could just introduce something in the coming expansion to make nanos more counterable.
It seems like the biggest issue with nanos is they can't really be tackled by anything except a select few other T2 cruisers. They can quickly and easily dispatch anything faster (inties) and easily run from anything slower.
Just being able to track them or get your drones moving fast enough to shoot them doesn't help you kill them since they can always run away. If you're going to kill a nano, you pretty much have to slow it down first and if you do that, tracking and drone speed don't matter anymore.
To me it seems like the statistics would speak for themselves. I think most everyone recognizes that nanos don't die nearly as often as other ship/fit styles.
At least counters are present in game though, in the long term the nano fad will eventually be countered by an abnormally large number of people training minmatar cruiser 5.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.05 13:34:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Goumindong on 05/05/2008 13:36:05
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Goumindong
Only enough range for pulse lasers. And 2 tracking computers + tracking scripts on Heavy Beams actually puts tracking on the beams fairly close to that on the pulses.
Can you use your math to show us all how the Tempest is better than the Mega 1v1 because of Hail?
I've never said the tempest is better than the mega 1v1 because of hail. And what would that have to do with scorch fitted pulse lasers with no tracking mods having similar tracking to 2 TC(tracking) Heavy Beams?
ed: How about instead of trolling you get your facts straight and make an argument? Does that sound reasonable?
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.05.05 14:40:00 -
[39]
It amazes me that people still think the major problem with nano-fit ships is speed. The root of the problem isn't that some ships are able to go very fast if fitted for the job, it's that there's no real working counter to well-executed nano tactics. Whether or not nano ship speeds are too high is an almost entirely separate matter.
I wrote a short article on it for Eve-Tanking.com rather than just post it as a reply:
http://www.eve-tanking.com/20080505.html
Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened. |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.05 14:46:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Goumindong on 05/05/2008 14:46:34
Originally by: Nyphur
It amazes me that people still think the major problem with nano-fit ships is speed. The root of the problem isn't that some ships are able to go very fast if fitted for the job, it's that there's no real working counter to well-executed nano tactics. Whether or not nano ship speeds are too high is an almost entirely separate matter.
I wrote a short article on it for Eve-Tanking.com rather than just post it as a reply:
http://www.eve-tanking.com/20080505.html
Actually it is kinda the root of the problem. And it seems into every type of combat balance. But that doesn't mean its the solution(though it may have a large effect on it, and while i can go into it here, i would rather not simply because i am crunched for time]
And no, that person is not the only person to think in the manner you describe.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
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Dianeces
Minmatar
The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 14:51:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Goumindong
ed: How about instead of trolling you get your facts straight and make an argument?
It's you.
You're the troll.
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Euriti
Gallente
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.05.05 14:58:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Euriti on 05/05/2008 15:00:46
Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra
And Ishtar is one ship that sadly has no other effective way of being fitted.
Yeah would kill the Ishtar. It's no good non-nano'd.
I mean come on it can't even field 3 80 pg railguns while having a double MAR tank, mwd and a booster, that's silly, and it can't tank properly either since it only has 5 low slots.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.05.05 14:59:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Nyphur on 05/05/2008 15:03:58
Originally by: Goumindong
Actually it is kinda the root of the problem. And it seems into every type of combat balance. But that doesn't mean its the solution(though it may have a large effect on it, and while i can go into it here, i would rather not simply because i am crunched for time]
And no, that person is not the only person to think in the manner you describe.
Thanks for the link but your post doesn't mention that agility decreases when you get webbed, which is the crux of the issue. Additionally, your proposed solution is much more complex and impacts the current game balance while the one that the person linked in my blog suggested maintains the status quo. That solution keeps everything as it is now but allows specialist webbing ships to counter nano-fits effectively. It means nano fits are viable unless the enemy has a specialist webber to counter it, restoring the whole field of fair play by introducing an effective counter-tactic. We don't want nano ships to stop working, we want them to be counterable in a fair set of circumstances.
Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened. |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.05 15:04:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Goumindong
Actually it is kinda the root of the problem. And it seems into every type of combat balance. But that doesn't mean its the solution(though it may have a large effect on it, and while i can go into it here, i would rather not simply because i am crunched for time]
And no, that person is not the only person to think in the manner you describe.
Thanks for the link but your post doesn't mention that agility decreases when you get webbed, which is the crux of the issue.
You mean agility increase. A decrease will make the ship drift farther when the opposite is wanted.
It wouldn't be as large an issue with the longer range webs. But yea, its something you can do.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.05.05 15:05:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Goumindong
You mean agility increase. A decrease will make the ship drift farther when the opposite is wanted.
It wouldn't be as large an issue with the longer range webs. But yea, its something you can do.
No, I mean decrease because I'm referring to the status quo. Currently, your agility DECREASES when you're webbed, making your ship coast out of web range.
Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened. |
Shadowsword
COLSUP
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.05.05 15:16:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Shadowsword
I did a small test with the tracking simulator. Assuming max skills and the use of an heavy beam II (that has a higher tracking than a 250mm rail or 720mm arty by far), and 2 tracking computers II with tracking scripts, you have at best 50% chance to hit a vaggabond orbiting at 6km/sec, and those hit will be on the "glancing" side.
Use short-range guns loaded with T2 long range ammo, muppet.
What kind of idiot can think things are fine if only a few T2 guns, with a not insignifiant training time associated, are viable counters?
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.05.05 15:20:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Goumindong
1. Agility changes on webs radically change the status quo.
I think you misunderstood the proposal. Webs wouldn't change as standard. Instead, a script that only specialist ships like the Huginn and Rapier could use would be introduced which would increase the enemy's agility markedly. Your proposal changes the entire concept of the stasis web by introducing a tiered approach and would require a lot more work and balance testing.
Originally by: Goumindong
2. Two ships are not an effective counter to a problem that extends through entire classes of ships. Especially when they are tech 2 cruisers.
I will concede on this point, that's pretty true. I think it's important to note that we don't want to completely get rid of the usefulness of nano-fits, just make it so that they can be countered by a tactic using a reasonable sized force (i.e. it shouldn't take ten ships to tackle one nano ishtar). What if we modify the suggestion to instead make it so that the script is usable on all ships but works best on specialist ships? The script could increase the agility of the enemy by 10-20%, meaning multiple scripted webs could do the trick but one or two wouldn't have much effect. Then specialist ships (and perhaps interceptors) could get a bonus to the script so that by level 5 it increases enemy ship agility by 100% (doubling it) or more. This means that a gang can effectively tackle nano-fit ships with multiple webs or specialised tackling ships.
Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened. |
Dianeces
Minmatar
The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 15:20:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Shadowsword
I did a small test with the tracking simulator. Assuming max skills and the use of an heavy beam II (that has a higher tracking than a 250mm rail or 720mm arty by far), and 2 tracking computers II with tracking scripts, you have at best 50% chance to hit a vaggabond orbiting at 6km/sec, and those hit will be on the "glancing" side.
Use short-range guns loaded with T2 long range ammo, muppet.
What kind of idiot can think things are fine if only a few T2 guns, with a not insignifiant training time associated, are viable counters?
I dunno, man. Trying to hit fast moving targets with long-range turrets (and their inherently bad tracking) seems like a kinda bad idea to me. Just sayin'.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.05.05 15:24:00 -
[49]
Polycarbs need to be adjusted to be in line with all other rigs compared to their modules.
Snakes shoul possibly provide not so great a boost.
Some Missiles explosion velocity needs adjusting.
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Shadowsword
COLSUP
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.05.05 16:07:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Shadowsword
I dunno, man. Trying to hit fast moving targets with long-range turrets (and their inherently bad tracking) seems like a kinda bad idea to me. Just sayin'.
Said fast-moving targets usually orbit effective range of short-range turrets, so it's not as if there's really much choice.
And relying on T2 ammos is a big mistake, because it basically leave in the dust newer players, and Eve in built on the basis that a few newbs have chances to kill a single veteran.
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 16:21:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Shadowsword
I did a small test with the tracking simulator. Assuming max skills and the use of an heavy beam II (that has a higher tracking than a 250mm rail or 720mm arty by far), and 2 tracking computers II with tracking scripts, you have at best 50% chance to hit a vaggabond orbiting at 6km/sec, and those hit will be on the "glancing" side.
It's not 50% chance to hit. It's 50% accuracy, which means you will be doing 50% of your "paper dps" on average. You will be missing a few shots completely, a few will be weak shots, and a few will be good hits. It will average out to about 50% of your normal dps, which should be plenty in order to force a Vagabond to run away with his tail between his legs.
The above does not support your argument. Especially since you said earlier that guns wouldn't even be able to track a 3 km/s cruiser. And by the way, a tech 2 200mm railgun, without any tracking mods or target painters, will hit a cruiser orbiting (with mwd) at 20 km range and 3km/s speed with 70-80% accuracy (depending on skill).
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 16:28:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Hannobaal on 05/05/2008 16:29:05
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Shadowsword
I dunno, man. Trying to hit fast moving targets with long-range turrets (and their inherently bad tracking) seems like a kinda bad idea to me. Just sayin'.
Said fast-moving targets usually orbit effective range of short-range turrets, so it's not as if there's really much choice.
Pulse lasers with tech 2 range crystals have no problem reaching out to warp disruptor max range, and cruiser size autocannons with a falloff bonus or falloff rigs and using barrage will hit with reasonable damage at those ranges as well.
Quote:
And relying on T2 ammos is a big mistake, because it basically leave in the dust newer players, and Eve in built on the basis that a few newbs have chances to kill a single veteran
If you think that a tech 2 ship designed spefically for speed (by the devs who put into the game) and fitting with expensive equipment shouldn't be able to speed tank anything at all, it would be a lot more honest of you to say "I don't want speed to be a factor in combat in Eve, in any way whatsoever". Because that is pretty much what you're asking for there.
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BABARR
PARABELUM-Project
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Posted - 2008.05.05 17:51:00 -
[53]
Yes nano need to be nerfed, it's not a new, but all nano user going to come here and complain "no no don't nerf"
I'am a nano user, and yes they are abused. It's totally no fun when you gank noob and he can't hit you,ect. A sacrilege or a vagabond don't have to fly at more than 6 or 7 km/s.
I'am a nano user but i don't fit full nano and overdrive on a rapier or vaga, 2 or 3 speed module are enought. The probleme whith a nerf made in CCP is the risk to have a vaga as fast as an iteron after. So OK for a nerf for people who fit FULL speed module on low slot, but not ok for a nerf for people who fit only a few of them (interceptor pilot for exemple cause they don't have 5 or 6 low slot).
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"Si vis pacem, parabellum" |
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