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Fox Vulcan
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.04 23:39:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Fox Vulcan on 04/05/2008 23:39:56
I dont know about the countless other folk that make up the Federation, but I get a feeling that theres a storm brewing. The whole business in the Caldari State, this Tibus Heth and his speeches...which lable us, the Gallanteans, as the guilty party.
Ive not been on the galactic map for very long, just working my way through the Academy and getting my job done. Keeping the Pirates out of the belts, guarding miners, that sort of thing. What any normal soldier does. As this Heth would have it, I, like every other member of the Federation, am somehow responsible for a complete shambles in Caldari State management...
How does that work?
Any which way, I get the feeling that things are going to change soon. You get some funny looks around the place, y'know? And what with the war in the past, and old hatreds and all, I cant help wondering if theres some in the State that aren't hoping for a rematch? All i can say is...I hope Im wrong. For all our sakes. I hope Im wrong... |
Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.05.05 07:16:00 -
[2]
Oh, it's quite possible that you're right, pilot, particularly if current trends in the State and Empire end up running in complementary parallel, and still more so if the Federation and Republic get swept up in the pattern of events.
Heth-haan may be spoiling for war, or he may simply be trying to get the Caldari as a people to reject absolutely the "Gallente" influence currently manifest in the megacorporate heads. Coming months should reveal which, and may also say much about the man himself. As to how what he is saying makes any kind of sense, I'll try to lay it out.
Firstly, you have to understand that we Caldari tend as a culture to think in collectivist, rather than individual, terms. This isn't absolute, but it is a cultural tendency. And, speaking of cultural tendencies, second, the problem arises from you personally only insofar as the problem arises from anyone who shares in the Gallentean cultural heritage of individualism.
From these two arises the Caldari tendency to view the Gallente as a single group, of which every individual is a part, which is dedicated to the advancement of the individual even (from our perspective) at the expense of the greater society. This dedication is anathema to Caldari cultural values, in which the individual is subordinate to ... well, pretty much any unit larger than the individual.
Now, while the Gallente may look at current Caldari problems in terms of insufficient regard for individual rights, the Caldari as a people are more apt to look at it as insufficient regard on the parts of individuals in charge for the good of the whole. That is, you might say that the leadership isn't respecting the workers' rights; the workers themselves, however, are more apt to say that the leadership is abusing its authority for selfish ends.
That is to say, the leaders are acting as though only their own good mattered-- from the Caldari perspective, they're acting like Gallente. So, considering how much of your culture you export (I'm not too much of a fan of Gallente holoflicks, yet somehow even I have seen probably a few hundred), you might be able to understand why, rightly or not, we'd lay the blame at your doorstep.
Probably, the blame lies more in the greed of executives than in anything else, but then, cultural values are precisely what is supposed to hold such human flaws in check. If our executives are corrupt, it's because our culture's hold on them weakened enough that they became so, and why should that be, other than cross-cultural contamination?
It's this sort of thing that sometimes gets the Caldari labeled xenophobic. On the whole, we're really not-- it's more that we're very protective of our own ways of life. We protect our culture and traditions the way you protect your rights, and for similar reasons: rights or traditions form the backbone of the society that embraces them, and when either is set aside, the results are as you see.
With tradition deeply ingrained in the culture but "rights" something strange and alien, well, perhaps you can see one more reason for the Caldari to have left the Federation. Perhaps, rather than looking at you and deciding we didn't want to become like you, we looked at ourselves, and decided we didn't like what we were turning into.
PRETA is now recruiting! |
Sylvain Lemieux
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2008.05.05 19:24:00 -
[3]
I would agree with the excellent points made by Ms. Jenneth. I have rarely seen such a succint analysis of the Caldari psyche.
I wouldn't take it too personally Captain Vulcan. There are elements in every state that often resort to the scapegoating of a rival power to incite the population. The Empire and the State criticise the Federation, the Republic and Federation hurl insults at the Empire, this is nothing new.
Whether this will turn to war or not remains to be seen but I am a firm believer that the State and the Federation are the two powers in the cluster with most to gain from cooperation. Our shared heritage and complimentary temperament could create a massive opportunity if we could only put aside an almost two century old war known only to a single citizen of either nation.
War is wanted only by the zealots, of which there are mercifully few. The majority simply want prosperity.
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Fox Vulcan
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.05 20:26:00 -
[4]
Amen to that, Lemieux. I agree that Ms. Jenneth's summary is a very astute way of looking at things, and accurate to boot. As for cooperation, the more the better I say. I guess its natural for differences to crop up, wherever people go. The old ledgends of Earth show that people havent changed to much. We're still all descended from Earth stock, and i think that we could make this galaxy a better place if we all fought together, rather than against each other.
Still, life is life and we have to deal with the lot we are given. And let the majority have the prosperity, thats all we can hope for.
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"For Honour and Glory." |
The LT
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Posted - 2008.05.05 22:10:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Sylvain Lemieux
War is wanted only by the zealots
You rang?
Well, if the majority want prosperity, why, do our respective navies continue to undermine each other, why just the other day I was destroying Gallente Navy ships in Caldari space. Is it just me, or is that not exactly working towards peace?
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Sylvain Lemieux
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2008.05.05 23:24:00 -
[6]
Originally by: The LT
You rang?
Well, if the majority want prosperity, why, do our respective navies continue to undermine each other, why just the other day I was destroying Gallente Navy ships in Caldari space. Is it just me, or is that not exactly working towards peace?
I would say this. In the current atmosphere of mutual distrust, neither side wishes to appear weak or vulnerable and much of the incursion into each others territory could be seen as an example of this. It is interesting to note that though many Caldari and Gallente pilots report conflict with forces of the opposing side, it is barely mentioned by the galactic media or the respective national governments.
From this we can only conclude that while each side has a need to project it's force and power, neither side wishes to create genuine diplomatic incidents or risk provoking the other into an attack. Small scale skirmishes fought between respective navies are one thing. A State-Federation war would be a conflict of senseless devastation that neither side could possibly win. Anyone who would wish such a thing deserves the moniker 'zealot' with all it's connotations.
There are many more things that unite the two peoples than divide them. A shared pursuit of wealth and trade, a common interest in defeating the pirate and terrorist groups that terrorise innocent civilians, high levels of technological advance. I could go on however these are not the fundamental reason behind the belief that the two nations should set aside their differences.
To all intents and purposes we are brothers come to blows, our homeworlds barely inches apart and seven hundred years of shared history before the war. Like brothers we must both respect our differences and build on our similarities. If we do not, the future is bleak for both nations.
Brothers bicker, it has always been so, yet in the end they always find they need one another.
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The LT
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Posted - 2008.05.05 23:34:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sylvain Lemieux
Originally by: The LT
You rang?
Well, if the majority want prosperity, why, do our respective navies continue to undermine each other, why just the other day I was destroying Gallente Navy ships in Caldari space. Is it just me, or is that not exactly working towards peace?
I would say this. In the current atmosphere of mutual distrust, neither side wishes to appear weak or vulnerable and much of the incursion into each others territory could be seen as an example of this. It is interesting to note that though many Caldari and Gallente pilots report conflict with forces of the opposing side, it is barely mentioned by the galactic media or the respective national governments.
From this we can only conclude that while each side has a need to project it's force and power, neither side wishes to create genuine diplomatic incidents or risk provoking the other into an attack. Small scale skirmishes fought between respective navies are one thing. A State-Federation war would be a conflict of senseless devastation that neither side could possibly win. Anyone who would wish such a thing deserves the moniker 'zealot' with all it's connotations.
There are many more things that unite the two peoples than divide them. A shared pursuit of wealth and trade, a common interest in defeating the pirate and terrorist groups that terrorise innocent civilians, high levels of technological advance. I could go on however these are not the fundamental reason behind the belief that the two nations should set aside their differences.
To all intents and purposes we are brothers come to blows, our homeworlds barely inches apart and seven hundred years of shared history before the war. Like brothers we must both respect our differences and build on our similarities. If we do not, the future is bleak for both nations.
Brothers bicker, it has always been so, yet in the end they always find they need one another.
Well, you really do love this whole 'peace' thing. It is all very noble, 'set aside our differences' etc. but really, how is this possible? As far as our memories and records go, we have had enemies. Is it not human nature to have enemies?
I believe the truth is we can co-exist, we simply must do so while hating each other. Enemies give us so many things, someone to blame, someone to yell at when we get mad, and someone to throw a few punches at when we need to blow off some steam, I'm very sorry, but there will never be peace.
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Fox Vulcan
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.05 23:46:00 -
[8]
And its people like you, LT, who make peace impossible. So unwilling to let things that are in the past STAY in the past that no one will ever move forward.
****************************
"For Honour and Glory." |
The LT
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Posted - 2008.05.06 02:00:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Fox Vulcan
And its people like you, LT, who make peace impossible. So unwilling to let things that are in the past STAY in the past that no one will ever move forward.
Sorry for making you sad. But it is people like me who keep the universe turning, see, you and your peace loving friends balance out me and people like me.
It is simply the natural order of things. Accept it.
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Sylvain Lemieux
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2008.05.06 05:54:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Sylvain Lemieux on 06/05/2008 05:55:17
Quote:
Well, you really do love this whole 'peace' thing. It is all very noble, 'set aside our differences' etc. but really, how is this possible? As far as our memories and records go, we have had enemies. Is it not human nature to have enemies?
Incorrect in many of your assertions. Firstly I am not necessarily a pacifist and believe that war can sometimes not only be justified, but required. There is a massive difference between fighting for a just cause against a worth opponent and simply 'having enemies' simply for the sake of it, something you appear to be advocating. Nowhere in your replies have you stated one justification for a Federation-State war.
Quote:
I believe the truth is we can co-exist, we simply must do so while hating each other. Enemies give us so many things, someone to blame, someone to yell at when we get mad, and someone to throw a few punches at when we need to blow off some steam
I do not disagree with this, as I stated in my reply. It is certainly natural for societies to create tensions with those it shares borders and history with. As I stated previously, the Caldari and Gallente feel more like bickering brothers than diametrically opposed, intractable foes. However, you go on to say:
Quote:
There will never be peace
I will of course remind you that the two nations are at peace this very moment and have been for a hundred years or more. Whatever the hyperbole spouted by ultra nationalists and patriots, the two states have a huge degree of interplay and mutual trade. The massive NOH investments in Algintal are an obvious example. A couple of border skirmishes aren't going to convince either government to start a fight and risk billions of ISK in business deals.
If you so need to engage your bloodlust, why don't you go and kill Guristas or Serpentis? Those people are far more responsible for the State's problem then some imagined fascist Federation monster-state intent on converting your people to quafe drinking, smut-watching junkies.
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Kitoba
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Posted - 2008.05.06 14:47:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Sylvain Lemieux
state intent on converting your people to quafe drinking, smut-watching junkies.
I have rarely seen such a succinct analysis of the Gallentean psyche.
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Fox Vulcan
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.06 15:24:00 -
[12]
Kitoba, I could probably come up with hundreds of various prejudged images and descriptions for the other races. I, unlike you, hold my tongue in check, and have the sense and decency to know that you cannot catagorise every single individual simply by where they live or where they were born. If your going to call me such names, simply because I am Gallante, im sure the rest of the Navy would having something to say about it, given their proud history. I earn my keep, I work hard. I dont indulge in the noxious stuff that some of the beauracrats do, nor othe bad habits. The majority of the Navy is the same, bar the odd stress relieving substances that some take and, indeed, some have to take. Its a thankless job, keeping the spaceways clear.
So, in future, think before firing off that mouth. Or you may come under a differnt sort of fire.
****************************
"For Honour and Glory." |
Kitoba
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Posted - 2008.05.06 16:07:00 -
[13]
Well, here comes another prejudice: You Gallenteans have no sense of humor whatsoever, including a complete and utter inability to laugh about yourself. That, after all, has been proven true in your case, even if you don't live on quafe and holoreels.
If it comes down to us being prejudged as speaking out loudly, I'm all for it.
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Fox Vulcan
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.06 18:05:00 -
[14]
I do have a sense of humour, but I find nothing humerous in insulting other people, be they of Gallante, Caldari, Minmattar or Amarr. Prejudice is yet another thing that keeps people apart, and i see it as just another obstacle that has to be dealt with to stop ordinary peoples lives being difficult.
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"For Honour and Glory." |
Kitoba
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Posted - 2008.05.06 19:00:00 -
[15]
Now we get to the point of real prejudices: Your socially imprinted notions of "apart", "obstacle" and "dealing with something so that it stops being difficult".
We Minmatar have a virtue that is very dear to us: Respect. It is an ancient word of forgotten origin that means "to look another time, from a different point of view".
Observing a bunch of Minmatars, you shouldn't be surprised to witness two insulting each other's mothers, both drawing their knives, eyes flashing with determined will to kill, both grinning, laughing, embracing, blissfully weeping and finally buying each other a beer and skillfully interpreting facial features of each other's pictures of their offspring.
This is traditionally regarded as an excellent way to overcome tension and very important exercise to keep your temper and level head in any situation.
But, we are, of course, brutal, barbaric loose cannons. The stereotype is true, but still completely mistaken.
Any notion of insightful self-reflecting of any of the races' specific traits helps mutual understanding. I just helped you to notice a tree in that darn forest, and hopefully by now you're able to laugh about it instead of instantly feeling attacked. |
Kohiko Sun
Caldari
Rising Sun Mining Inc.
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.05.06 19:15:00 -
[16]
Pilot Vulcan,
Please. I humbly beg you to examine your own prejudices before casting about to decry perceived ones so often. Every time you speak against it, you negate this by giving insults and threats to anyone who has the slightest difference in thought than you.
Climbing into your guns, five-gun salutes, placing bounties... indeed.
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Fox Vulcan
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.06 20:12:00 -
[17]
Im a soldier, and I am what I am. I never spent long making words do tricks or digging deep into philosophy, or whatever it is that you would call it. I try and do the job in front of me, to the best of my abilities. Often I find it quite hard, and most likely I will recieve not thanks for it but critiscism.
I never expected anything else from the Navy. It is what I am. I chose that, I embraced it, and I still revel in it. I simply object to people telling me what I should and should not be. I do not ask that of others, and if it seems that I have then, once again, I am purely an ignorant, blunt soldier.
And I have particular reason to be rather edgy tonight. I just got back from a thirteen jump haul from the other side of the system; in a pod. My companion woke up twice in a clone tank during that session. And do you know why?
Caldari ships attacked up. Part of a Caldari Corporation. Admittedly they were pirates, admittedly they were already wanted by CONCORD. But having to deal with that, and repeated, unrelated attacks from Caldari ships in Gallante space, well...
It makes me a little bit irate, y'know? Is that too damn unreasonable?
****************************
"For Honour and Glory." |
Kitoba
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Posted - 2008.05.06 20:44:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Fox Vulcan
Is that too damn unreasonable?
Not unreasonable. My reason grasps it. It's my heart that can't understand it: You are an immortal pod pilot, why do you care about danger and death? Everything you own and everything you did is nothing in comparison to what you'll be and what you will or will not do in the mist of eternity.
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Fox Vulcan
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.06 20:52:00 -
[19]
I am flesh, therefore I bleed.
I have feelings, thus I feel pain.
I am not immortal, I just have the option to re-clone, and even then it is so long as the Navy provides. Death is real, it is possible. I dont pretend I dont know fear; when that damn Cruiser was launching missiles as big as the shuttle I was scared as hell.
Besides, I am only human. Im not one of these damned elitists who think that capsuleers are some sort of 'higher race'.
Is it too much to ask for less hate in the galaxy...?
****************************
"For Honour and Glory." |
Kohiko Sun
Caldari
Rising Sun Mining Inc.
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.05.06 20:52:00 -
[20]
I am not interested in hearing weak excuses - as I am certain your superiors in the GalFed Navy are not. As it stands, heed your own words: Originally by: Fox Vulcan
So, in future, think before firing off that mouth. Or you may come under a different sort of fire.
I see troubles ahead for you. I cannot say I pity you for what your rudeness and ignorant assertions will bring, but I do pity the crew who will suffer under the guns of someone you anger. Find insult in my words, if you wish, but I am offering you advice.
This is where I found my sig. |
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Fox Vulcan
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.06 21:07:00 -
[21]
I give in. To hell with it. My superiors are happy with me, my friends are happy with me as is, those I work with are happy with me. Ill fight for my ideals if I have to. If they throw insults they can expect them in kind. If they throw shots, they will be returned. Such is life.
Fox Out. |
Kitoba
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Posted - 2008.05.06 21:19:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Fox Vulcan
I am flesh, therefore I bleed.
I have feelings, thus I feel pain.
I am not immortal, I just have the option to re-clone, and even then it is so long as the Navy provides. Death is real, it is possible. I dont pretend I dont know fear; when that damn Cruiser was launching missiles as big as the shuttle I was scared as hell.
Besides, I am only human. Im not one of these damned elitists who think that capsuleers are some sort of 'higher race'.
No, capsuleers are not a "higher race". Not even Jovians are, even if it may seem so: They are facing their own doom.
You will not feel pain, your death will be quick.
Your fear did once protect your body, now it protects your ship: Is there a difference?
If death is certain, do not fight it: It will make your last moments miserable. If destruction is imminent: Do not fight it. It prevents you from rescuing your pod: Is there a difference?
Fear is the weapon of body and spirit united trying to prove its superiority over death. Is this different from immortality?
Science gave us the wonder of cloning, society awards you the precious gift. Who are you to reject it?
Is it not the duty of a pod-pilot to be scientifically reincarnated to save the lives of millions of others, over and over again? Does it matter how long a clone "lives"?
Such were the lessons of the Vherikor Shaman who adopted me, and I still hold them enclosed in my heart. The first heart, by the way, these lessons saved my "naturally born clone" more than once.
Originally by: Fox Vulcan
Is it too much to ask for less hate in the galaxy...?
No. But that doesn't invalidate the rest. Actually, hate is great fun if you can stop it at the right time, but then I don't expect every human to be Minmatar. |
Fox Vulcan
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.06 21:34:00 -
[23]
-Fox tries to find words to sum up his feelings on this, and decides it not worth the time. Feed ends-
****************************
"For Honour and Glory." |
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