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Candidates, How do you propose CCP fixes level 5 missions?

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Author	Topic
Synjin Sinner Gallente The Phalanx Expeditionary Conglomerate The Gemini Project	Posted - 2008.05.05 10:36:00 - [1] Really this is disheartening... I would love to take my corp back to low sec to do lvl 5's... but the risk vs reward is just not there... It would be nice to see bounties added to the ships with greater LP's added to the turn in.... Also it would be nice to have a feature for lvl 5's to split the lps with more then just 5 people... Plus remove all the spamming energy nuetral towers... and just add more dps... make it a truely team oriented effort. as it stands now I can get more lps from a lvl 4 q20 agent in low sec then I can with a level 5... something is really wrong here. your thoughts and opinions? Synjin Sinner CEO of TPEC
Bunyip Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.05.05 10:41:00 - [2] I agree that something has to be done to improve lvl 5 missions. As I have not run them yet, I'm not sure what to say though. I do plan to run them soon, so I can give a better answer then, and present the ideas of the players with a better concept of the problems. Increased bounties and loot drops will help, but it's far from solving the problem. With a fleet of ships, the bounties need to be split so that everybody walks away happy. I can say that this has been on my mind, and I do plan to do something about this situation should I get elected. - Bunyip -Bunyip "May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table.
Ma Zhiqiang Minmatar Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.05 10:51:00 - [3] Edited by: Ma Zhiqiang on 05/05/2008 10:53:01 No doubt lvl 5 missions didnt turn out the way they were intended. I guess the problem CCP has had when designing the current lvl 5s are to avoid low risk farming to pull the faction items out of lp stores... Missions in general needs a lot of work done to become more interesting. The way they are designed makes it too easy for people running them solo. Missions are now also 100% possible to probe out when using exploration probes. The mission must be within 5au of a planet. It's kinda weird, in my opinion. There must be a way of designing missions that makes players dependent in working together. Fewer enemies with better tanks and doing more damage, could be one solution. Missions like The Assault lvl 4, is probably the most interesting mission, since you get new spawns with random aggression etc. Missions built more like that or introducing other concepts or variation, could be how future missions are altered/made. In my opinion, lvl 5s should be removed and the higher sorts of missions more tied into factional warfare and add more explorable encounters where you may be able to use capital ships etc. ______________________________________________________ Running for CSM - read my presentation!
zoolkhan Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.05.05 11:04:00 - [4] i can just agree to the obvious: LP and reward of a l5 mission that is impossible to be done alone must exceed the profit of a l4 mission that can be done alone AFTER sharing it with your team, it still needs to be rewarded. otherways naturally there is no point in doing those missions. If you can rat for the same amount of cash just one hour in a random 0.0 area, then something is wrong with the reaward system...... recruiting -forum
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:30:00 - [5] I must admit that I have never done a l5 myself, I have tried to get a few friends together a few times but we never got enough people that were interested. If unique modules/implants have a chance to drop there, that do not drop else where, then people will surely come, I'd say. --- Consider voting for me in the CSM elections. Click the banner to watch the campaign movie.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:37:00 - [6] Fixing L5 missions (and not only them): * "new" missions should start their "auto-balanced reward" at the HIGHEST end of the ISK/LP spectrum, not on the lowest one like now * whenever you "turn in" a mission, the AMOUNT of people in the fleet will modify the "effective mission completion time" statistic non-linearly (one possible multiplier proposal : 1 man = x1 ; 2 men = x2.5 ; 3 men = x4.5 ; 4 men = x7 ; 5 men = x10) And poof, voila, EVERYTHING will miraculously fix itself. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:45:00 - [7] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 05/05/2008 13:45:44 Meh, lvl5's are mostly done by pirates alts, going by a few pirate friends I speak to. Same with most low sec stuff. It will get used by pvper/pirates and their alts mostly. Its got nothing to do with risk/reward since most carebears would never enter lowsec with something they cannot afford to lose. And if they are going to use disposable ships, they go to 0.0 insted. Its the fact that 0.0 ratting is safer than low sec missions. Until some candidate has the guts to stand up and say that 0.0 ratting neeeds to be made more dangerous (however that is done, be it every rat scramble, NPC aggro whatever), then any boost to low sec is transfering the problem insted of solving it. -- Billion Isk Mission
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:48:00 - [8] 1. Find a L5 agent in a lowsec right next to (several) highsec system(s). 2. Take a shuttle, ask for a mission. 3. If it's in highsec, go run it. If not, reject. 4. ??? 5. Profit 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:54:00 - [9] Originally by: Akita T Fixing L5 missions (and not only them): * "new" missions should start their "auto-balanced reward" at the HIGHEST end of the ISK/LP spectrum, not on the lowest one like now * whenever you "turn in" a mission, the AMOUNT of people in the fleet will modify the "effective mission completion time" statistic non-linearly (one possible multiplier proposal : 1 man = x1 ; 2 men = x2.5 ; 3 men = x4.5 ; 4 men = x7 ; 5 men = x10) And poof, voila, EVERYTHING will miraculously fix itself. I very much like this idea. This is something I might push if we get a chance to discuss it. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.05 14:09:00 - [10] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Akita T Fixing L5 missions (and not only them): * "new" missions should start their "auto-balanced reward" at the HIGHEST end of the ISK/LP spectrum, not on the lowest one like now * whenever you "turn in" a mission, the AMOUNT of people in the fleet will modify the "effective mission completion time" statistic non-linearly (one possible multiplier proposal : 1 man = x1 ; 2 men = x2.5 ; 3 men = x4.5 ; 4 men = x7 ; 5 men = x10) And poof, voila, EVERYTHING will miraculously fix itself. I very much like this idea. This is something I might push if we get a chance to discuss it. It wont do anything. Carebears just go to 0.0 insted because ratting is safer than low sec lvl5's. The only people doing Lvl5's are carebears using a shuttle/cepter alt with Corporate Police force etc to do lvl5's in high sec when available on their mains, or its mostly pirates and pvpers and their alts. Most carebears will skip lowsec and go to 0.0 since its safer. If you see a hostile in local while 0.0 ratting, you can safely warp out and log/cloak. In a mission, you have to navigate gates and you lose standings if you do not complete it so there is a incentive for people in a mission to stay and travel about. All these "boost low sec" threads are transfering the problem insted of solving it. -- Billion Isk Mission

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 14:14:00 - [11] Originally by: Lord WarATron All these "boost low sec" threads are transfering the problem insted of solving it. Don't get me wrong there are a lot of other things i would do to low-sec. But we aren't fixing the entire problem with this just the level 5 reward problem. And no, 0.0 ratting is not more secure than low-sec. Its only more secure if you own the space and if you own the space then you've helped take that space. And if you've taken that space then it certainly isn't and wasn't risk free[since someone can come and take it from you] Vote Goumindong for CSM
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.05 20:33:00 - [12] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 05/05/2008 20:34:43 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Lord WarATron All these "boost low sec" threads are transfering the problem insted of solving it. Don't get me wrong there are a lot of other things i would do to low-sec. But we aren't fixing the entire problem with this just the level 5 reward problem. And no, 0.0 ratting is not more secure than low-sec. Its only more secure if you own the space and if you own the space then you've helped take that space. And if you've taken that space then it certainly isn't and wasn't risk free[since someone can come and take it from you] "0.0 ratting is not more secure" than low sec missions? I suggest you read your own alliance forums, about how safe ratting is in Hostile space and how much Goons are reccomended to rat in 0.0 hostile space since if you know what you are doing and practice cloak/logoff tactics, it is almost impossible to get killed. You do not need to own space to rat. You dont even need to jump gates once you find a out of the way system. Thats the problem with low sec - 0.0 ratting is safer and harder to shut down. As for miners, 0.0 ore is better as well. You cannot pretend that issue does not exist. We all know its the reason why. You can ask people and they rat in 0.0, and the answer is that it is a way to make easy isk while "avoiding wardecs and that its safer than low sec missions" Thing is though, any candidate with the guts to say that 0.0 npcing needs to be more dangerous will lose votes with the carebears. Do votes matter or game balance? That is probebly what candidates need to think about. -- Billion Isk Mission
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 20:48:00 - [13] Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 05/05/2008 20:49:28 Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 05/05/2008 20:34:43 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Lord WarATron All these "boost low sec" threads are transfering the problem insted of solving it. Don't get me wrong there are a lot of other things i would do to low-sec. But we aren't fixing the entire problem with this just the level 5 reward problem. And no, 0.0 ratting is not more secure than low-sec. Its only more secure if you own the space and if you own the space then you've helped take that space. And if you've taken that space then it certainly isn't and wasn't risk free[since someone can come and take it from you] "0.0 ratting is not more secure" than low sec missions? I suggest you read your own alliance forums, about how safe ratting is in Hostile space and how much Goons are reccomended to rat in 0.0 hostile space since if you know what you are doing and practice cloak/logoff tactics, it is almost impossible to get killed. You do not need to own space to rat. You dont even need to jump gates once you find a out of the way system. Thats the problem with low sec - 0.0 ratting is safer and harder to shut down. As for miners, 0.0 ore is better as well. You cannot pretend that issue does not exist. We all know its the reason why. You can ask people and they rat in 0.0, and the answer is that it is a way to make easy isk while "avoiding wardecs and that its safer than low sec missions" Thing is though, any candidate with the guts to say that 0.0 npcing needs to be more dangerous will lose votes with the carebears. Do votes matter or game balance? That is probebly what candidates need to think about. One of the main reasons 0.0 ratting can be so safe is that large swaths of 0.0 are completely empty at many times. In 0.0 you can be the only person in a system and you can see when a hostile comes in quite easily by taking a gander at local. I'm not sure that the ease of ratting in 0.0 should really be changed via nerfing one aspect or another. Whose fault is it that large portions of 0.0 go completely unused? I think that spaceholders really haven't ponied up and taken an interest in securing their space in many cases and it may be because holding huge swaths of space is simply easier than actually securing them. What would be my incentive for chasing down ratters in my space aside from getting rid of them which I'd love? Knowing that they're there in the first place is in and of itself a disincentive. One item that had intrigued me at one point when I read about it in a dev blog somewhere was the concept of gate logging or some other mechanism to know who's actually traversing your space. Being able to track rogues via jumpgate usage. I haven't really taken the time to think through all the ins and outs, but as far as the non spaceholders having a fairly easy time ratting in 0.0 carefree issue is concerned it's a potential remedy. The only other solution as it stands today is to patrol your space at all times and hope you can catch them before the log off and cloak, which is pretty far fetched in any practical sense depending on the amount of space that you hold. I'd almost go so far as to say some consideration should be given to the consolidation of region control. As it stands right now, though you may have towers in a region claiming sov it doesn't really mean you "control" the region. http://www.griefgaming.com/images/darius_sig.jpg signature removed (max size 24000 bytes) - please email us (with the signature URL) if you want to know why - Pirlouit(mods@ccpgames.com)
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 20:56:00 - [14] How to fix L5s? Already mostly posted here. Originally by: Synjin Sinner It would be nice to see bounties added to the ships with greater LP's added to the turn in.... Also it would be nice to have a feature for lvl 5's to split the lps with more then just 5 people... Plus remove all the spamming energy nuetral towers... and just add more dps... make it a truely team oriented effort. Originally by: Akita T * "new" missions should start their "auto-balanced reward" at the HIGHEST end of the ISK/LP spectrum, not on the lowest one like now * whenever you "turn in" a mission, the AMOUNT of people in the fleet will modify the "effective mission completion time" statistic non-linearly (one possible multiplier proposal : 1 man = x1 ; 2 men = x2.5 ; 3 men = x4.5 ; 4 men = x7 ; 5 men = x10) Plus removing the stupid acceleration gates or changing them to allow cap ships too. Afaik, a large portion of the L5s don't even allow caps in. Also I am unsure whether L5s always spawn in the agent system or not. But if they can spawn elsewhere, that should change. You want ME for the CSM! There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.05 21:04:00 - [15] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Also I am unsure whether L5s always spawn in the agent system or not. But if they can spawn elsewhere, that should change. Mine spawn 40%-ish in a highsec nearby 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 21:25:00 - [16] Originally by: Lord WarATron I suggest you read your own alliance forums, about how safe ratting is in Hostile space and how much Goons are reccomended to rat in 0.0 hostile space since if you know what you are doing and practice cloak/logoff tactics, it is almost impossible to get killed. Yes, i should have mentioned that simple cloak/logoff changes fix that problem with 0.0 ratting. Thanks for reminding me. E.G. http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=729912&page=2#40 Vote Goumindong for CSM
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.05 21:48:00 - [17] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 05/05/2008 21:49:11 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Lord WarATron I suggest you read your own alliance forums, about how safe ratting is in Hostile space and how much Goons are reccomended to rat in 0.0 hostile space since if you know what you are doing and practice cloak/logoff tactics, it is almost impossible to get killed. Yes, i should have mentioned that simple cloak/logoff changes fix that problem with 0.0 ratting. Thanks for reminding me. E.G. http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=729912&page=2#40 None of that will stop a ratter that starts warp the second he sees someone in local. The problem is that when you can ask people why they rat in 0.0, and the answer is that it is a way to make easy isk while "avoiding wardecs and that its safer than low sec missions" This thread is about lvl5's in lowsec, and the simple fact that 0.0 ratting is too safe for most people to consider lowsec. I know this. You know this. Heck, most people know this. But nobody wants to tackle this issue because its a unpopular one. -- Billion Isk Mission
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.05 23:00:00 - [18] I'd do level 4's and 5's in Low IF the npc aggro was instantly tranfered, even by half, to any newcomers... You want me to PvP while I am PvE'ing? Ok. Only fair that you PvE a bit while I am PvP'ing then. Otherwise, not worth the trouble.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 23:52:00 - [19] Edited by: Goumindong on 05/05/2008 23:56:40 Originally by: Lord WarATron None of that will stop a ratter that starts warp the second he sees someone in local. Starts warp to where? ed: To a Station? Siege the system and take it To an NPC station? Are you telling me that NPC station systems are empty and not filled with people especially hostile people? To a POS? Siege the POS and destroy it. To a safe? Probe them down and kill them. Not to mention the likelihood they will be able to initiate immediately as local rises without using a macro[which is illegal] To a gate? Chase them through and kill them[also, catch systems work great here] Vote Goumindong for CSM
Dawnstar Gallente Kiroshi Group	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:03:00 - [20] Unfortunately, there's a fine balance involved with getting the risk and rewards right for missions. Some of the problems can be handled with tweaks to the missions as other posters have suggested. However... doing so can have other unintended consequences. What is enough reward for 5 players may be excessive if 2 or 3 can manage it alone. Perhaps one solution might be to apply a modifier based on the number of players (as some others have suggested). However if a modifier is added, it needs to be in the nature of diminishing returns, similar to how the stacking penalty of hardeners work. I'm not terribly sure I like that notion however. A better thought might be to have the rewards for missions use some sort of a modifier based on how often they are completed by players. If a particular mission doesn't get accepted/completed for a period of time, the rewards go up. Likewise if a mission is always accepted, the rewards go down. Essentially a more dynamic system for setting what mission rewards are. I'll have to give this some more thought. -D

Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:57:00 - [21] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 05/05/2008 23:56:40 Originally by: Lord WarATron None of that will stop a ratter that starts warp the second he sees someone in local. Starts warp to where? ed: To a Station? Siege the system and take it To an NPC station? Are you telling me that NPC station systems are empty and not filled with people especially hostile people? To a POS? Siege the POS and destroy it. To a safe? Probe them down and kill them. Not to mention the likelihood they will be able to initiate immediately as local rises without using a macro[which is illegal] To a gate? Chase them through and kill them[also, catch systems work great here] Read your own alliance forums about how to safely rat in dangerous and hostile space. They answer each and every issue you mention. In fact, I find it strange that you are pretending these issues do not exist. There is nothing forcing people to kill the spawn they are fighting, thus allowing people to warp off freely. Even NPC scrambers are a non-issue if they have a wcs or two fitted (and the new generation of ratters do). And the spawns are no longer dangerous like they used to be years ago (used to be a fleet of 10-15+ NPC's insted of 3-5 NPC's). NPC agression, cloaking nerfs/removals will not solve the issue. It will transfer it, aka putting a bandage on a broken leg. Eventaully, once everything is nerfed, people will warp as soon as someone enters local and warp between multiple safes, which takes a total of a few minutes to setup prior to a ratting session. The problem has not been solved, insted it has been transfered. The only way you solve the problem is by making 0.0 more dangerous. There are 100's of methods of doing this. E.g having lots more rats but every rat scrambling, thus forcing people to commit to the spawn they are fighting. There are also dozens of other ideas to force people to commit to ratting in such a way that t he danger returns. But the issue is that until 0.0 becomes more dangerous, most people just wont entertain the thought of lowsec, because 0.0 ratting, even in hostile and dangerous space, is safer than missions in lowsec or missions under a wardec in highsec. Its a unpopular statement because its the truth, and hence most CSM's are not willing to put their heads on a chopping block over this, and insted, prefer to transfer the issue insted insted of solving it. -- Billion Isk Mission

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