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Malik Mantille
Minmatar Dark Sun Collective A.X.I.S
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Posted - 2008.10.15 08:38:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Vily since this thread got bumped im totally laying down my stance ;p
[x] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic.
I think the idea was to express why... not just your choice. ------
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Fubarmofo
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Posted - 2008.10.31 14:59:00 -
[242]
[ x ] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic.
Not only change it, but, ensure that the mission runner cannot be aggroed in return by the "salvager" when he decides to return in a fully fitted pvp ship.
Mission runners risk losing their ship to a bad spawn aggro, the "salvagers" run no risk at all. Most "salvagers" now opt to steal loot so as to return in fully fitted pvp ships to gain a navy bs kill on their killboards.
Mission runners own the wrecks in my opinion and should be allowed to defend their gains without the ability of the "salvager" to aggress within a timer.
I use inverted comma's around the word salvager as more often than not, the whole reason for probing a mission is to gain aggro on the mission runner, thus making profit from the mission runner's faction mods.
MWD's cannot be used in deadspace, so how hard would it be for CCP to alter the salvaging rules there too?
Hi sec is not a safe place for the most ardent of carebears as it is, and whilst I appreciate not everyone likes pve alone, those that do, should be made safer. If everyone could run a mission without the fear of ship or isk loss, surely this would help to reduce the macro users and isk buyers. PvP chars could then run legitimate alts purely for isk making via mission running.
Besides, if a salvager wishes to make money from his "proffesion", take it to lo sec roid belts and enter into a risky business and stop profiteering from players just wishing to mind their own business.
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Mistress Evita
Caldari Booze and Hookers
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Posted - 2008.10.31 15:22:00 -
[243]
Originally by: Fubarmofo Not only change it, but, ensure that the mission runner cannot be aggroed in return by the "salvager" when he decides to return in a fully fitted pvp ship.
Mission runners risk losing their ship to a bad spawn aggro, the "salvagers" run no risk at all. Most "salvagers" now opt to steal loot so as to return in fully fitted pvp ships to gain a navy bs kill on their killboards.
No, never going to happen. And most mission runner killers I know don't really care about the Navy BS kill. What they want are the faction fittings.
Originally by: Fubarmofo Mission runners risk losing their ship to a bad spawn aggro, the "salvagers" run no risk at all.
Dang, then those mission runners who loose their ship in a mission must suck at running missions. I've been running missions for two years and have never lost a ship in one.
The salvage belongs to the first one that gets to it. That's what CCP always says anyway.
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Dramaticus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.31 15:38:00 -
[244]
Originally by: Fubarmofo Mission runners risk losing their ship to a bad spawn aggro
the only time a mission runner faces any risk is when they screw up. Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan |
Fubarmofo
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Posted - 2008.10.31 16:05:00 -
[245]
Very true Sir, but there is still an element of risk, albeit if it is from their own stupidity. There should, IMHO be a risk to the thief / salvager.
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Wiccy84
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.10.31 16:36:00 -
[246]
the salvagers risk being shot by the ppl they steal loot from. If they arent interested in the loot and they are just salvaging... they arent hurting you. As wrecks are out there for anyone to salvage.
but honestly i dont care if it gives aggro. mission runners should either (a) PVP the salvager and be willing to face the consequences for firing on him (win or loose) or (b) ignore, there is nothing that salvaging does that directly prevents you from finishing the mission. Where as stealing the loot can, hence loot theft should give aggro while salvaging shouldnt. But again like i said... CBA to care
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Garion Avarr
Amarr Zero Zero Traders YTMND.
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Posted - 2008.10.31 16:53:00 -
[247]
After a bit of thought, my opinion is:
[x] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic.
I feel it's a risk vs. reward thing. If you find abandoned wrecks, hey, loot and salvage them if you want. Just be aware that there is a small risk that the person they belonged to might see you in the next fifteen minutes and care enough to shoot you (personally, I probably wouldn't care enough to shoot someone who had looted/salvaged from wrecks I had abandoned). If you can manage to salvage and/or loot a mission someone's still doing, more power to you, but where there is reward, there should be risk -- and the risk here is not great, since a mission fit ship probably will not have a warp disrupter.
One thing I might think about changing, however, is allowing wrecks to be tractorable by anyone. To prevent abuse, however, this should result in an agression flag. Transferable salvage rights would also be cool.
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Quantum Light
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Posted - 2008.11.01 06:18:00 -
[248]
[X] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged.
Though I have lost many a wreck to the ninja salvager, I just chock it up to the cost of business. Have I ever ninja salvaged someone else? Nope. That all said, I would rather not see it changed for the following reason. It is salvage not loot. One of the oldest international laws in the world is the Law of Salvage. Per the Cornell University Law department:
ôSalvage is the reward given to persons who voluntarily assist a ship or recover its cargo from impending or actual peril or loss. To make a valid claim of salvage, a claimant must prove: ò the event involved a ship and its cargo, or things committed to and lost at sea or other public, navigable waterways; ò the ship or its cargo have been found or rescued; ò the service performed by claimant must have been of benefit to the property involved in the rescue. A salvor (one who salvages) must have the intent and capacity of committing a salvage, but need not have the intention of keeping the property. The salvor need not have even given physical assistance to the rescue of the ship or property: in a recent New York case, a ship's captain's decision to keep his ship nearby in case a distressed ship needed help was considered sufficient to support a claim of salvage.ö
Yes there is a risk that someone will come in and salvage a wreck you have killed. This is EVE, it is a PVP game and nothing is 100% safe.
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Bunyip
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.11.01 12:34:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic.
Actually, I take this a bit further. One of my ideas was to have anybody entering the mission area (if it's a deadspace mission) to be aggroed immediately to the mission runner and his fleet. This sets up an opportunity to counter the damage before it's done, with the subsequent risk of the PvE-setup ship being taken out by a PvPer.
For story purposes, the agent has taken control of that task (eliminating the pirate scum) from Concord, and passes that right onto the mission-runner. If invaded, the mission runner does not have to fire, but can do so if he wishes without Concord intervention.
-Bunyip
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
Garion Avarr
Amarr Zero Zero Traders YTMND.
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Posted - 2008.11.01 14:58:00 -
[250]
Originally by: Quantum Light This is EVE, it is a PVP game and nothing is 100% safe.
I quite agree, which is why I feel that the 'ninja salvager' should be aggro'd to the mission runner -- otherwise ninja salvaging in 100% safe.
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Alica Wildfire
Minmatar Federal Investigations Agency
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Posted - 2008.11.01 18:18:00 -
[251]
[X] Ninja salvager should not be aggoed.
Who finds things in space owns them. While there is a name on a can, there is nothing on a wreck. The Beachcombers have been living of wrecks in the times before spaceflight and the same are living on. The salvage materials that are coming from wrecks are an important part of the economy. To make that illegal will harm the economy for many missionrunners let rot their wrecks unused.
It's a simple question of tradition. To make it illegal makes no sense for me. And to work as a ninja salvager might be not require as much skill as running level four missions in battleships but is a fair income for the poorest of the poor. For this kind of salvage needs a lot of patience.
And it's working class style and a bit dirty. Don't make them criminals. -- FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
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Issler Dainze
Minmatar Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
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Posted - 2008.11.02 02:13:00 -
[252]
[X] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic.
I have always found it odd that the contents of a wreck are considered reason to allow combat to retain, but salvage, which is often as valuable is considered fair game. So I'd support changing the mechanic. I'd also like to see a way for me to mark something as free to take with no reprecussions. A lot of times I don't want the loot or salvage and I'd like to make it clear and safe for others to enjoy.
[ ] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks.
Issler
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Jouras
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Posted - 2008.11.02 05:43:00 -
[253]
[x] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks.
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Brother Nightfall
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.11.03 00:36:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Fubarmofo Very true Sir, but there is still an element of risk, albeit if it is from their own stupidity. There should, IMHO be a risk to the thief / salvager.
There's plenty of risk in salvaging. Ultimately, we're the ones taking uninsurable, untanked T2 frigates into Level 4 deadspaces, often with faction fittings (Sisters Scan Probe launchers, for example). If one of those goes pop (and it happens more often than you'd think; Recon 3, anyone?), it's a bigger hit than losing a fully-insured T2-fit Battleship. Of course, the immense amusement offered by the Ninja lifestyle more than offsets the hazard.
Similarly, if CCP didn't want us to invade other people's deadspaces, they'd give us a way to scan out wrecks. At present, the only way to find them is to scan for a Mission Runner's Battleship or Salvage vessel.
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Garion Avarr
Amarr Zero Zero Traders YTMND.
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Posted - 2008.11.03 03:25:00 -
[255]
Originally by: Brother Nightfall
Similarly, if CCP didn't want us to invade other people's deadspaces, they'd give us a way to scan out wrecks. At present, the only way to find them is to scan for a Mission Runner's Battleship or Salvage vessel.
I support being able to scan out wrecks.
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ee21k
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Posted - 2008.11.04 19:07:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
[X] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks.
a vast majority of 'ninja salvagers' are newish players cleaning up rat corpses after older players went belt to belt popping. If you want to avoid this simply mission in an active system and you are very unlikely to be scanned down before you can complete your mission. remember: herd mentality works. |
Pixel SonursCreen
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Posted - 2008.11.04 23:13:00 -
[257]
[x] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks.
its like that for a reason, too bad for the missionrunners that seem themselves as a victim i guess.
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:07:00 -
[258]
Oh hi, guys. What's goin' on in this thread?
It's been over 2 months since I've posted in this thread, so I figured I'd give 'er a go once again... Anything changed? Mission Runners still crying about being salvaged by us Big Bad Ninjas?
We're Recruiting! |
Xindi Kraid
Caldari Cerulean Sky Fire Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.13 20:43:00 -
[259]
No Too busy crying about missiles
Lucky you -So says Xindi Kraid
Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here |
DjLowballer
Amarr FLASHTROOPER CORP
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Posted - 2008.11.14 12:59:00 -
[260]
[X] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks.
It would be different if every player could salvage without skills. However if one doesnt salvage, then its just junk out there going to no use.
Please Vote DjLowballer as your delegate to the CSM! |
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Gaelenus
Gallente Society of the Crimson Flame
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Posted - 2008.11.14 19:07:00 -
[261]
[X] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks.
I like this current system, and NO i dont ninja salvage and yes i do run missions personally i think this system helps blance out the lvl 4 missions that CCP already consider unbalanced in thier profitability and it helps discourage people from crowding mission hubs, not to add to the fact it goes with the competitive harsh nature of eve.
An interesting copromise i think would be if you made salvaging the wreck flag the ninja to some of the NPC's left in the mission. This would make sense and would also be more consistent with game mechanics that currently exists, namley those in pvp.
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Arithron
Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.14 22:18:00 -
[262]
Edited by: Arithron on 14/11/2008 22:20:00 Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd for clearing wrecks.
Chances are the NS will trigger the red flag anyway by stealing some juicy loot from a wreck. I personally start destroying the wrecks if a NS shows up and I feel upset about it (ie, haven't had a chance to open them to look at loot!). However, it often depends if I can be arsed or not...most Lvl 4's I don't salvage or check loot at all.
I guess a way to make it more difficult for the NS, but still allow it to be a viable profession, would be to make the NS have to scan for the mission runner every time the MR uses a gate at deadspace site.
It still doesn't stop 'baiting' by NS for the mission runner to attack them. Just last night I had one return after his frigate was 'accidently' destroyed, in a PvP ship (obviously with the intention of trying for my mods on Domi). However, this was quite fun really :) I'd hate to stop such excitement and chances at PvP just because missions are seen as Isk earners...it should be difficult to earn...
Oh, and he warped off once he figured his shield-tank was about exhausted, and my armor one was holding well...
Take care, Arithron
Vote Arithron for CSM! Check out my thread: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=899358 |
Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.11.14 22:37:00 -
[263]
Originally by: Arithron Oh, and he warped off once he figured his shield-tank was about exhausted, and my armor one was holding well...
I think you have provided one of the most articulate and well thought out responses that I've ever seen from someone who runs Missions, and I respect that. All too frequently, people are ready to jump up and beat their chests demanding changes and reparations, and you, sir, seem to have found an answer.
Good on ya, mate!
We're Recruiting! |
Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2008.12.13 06:33:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Issler Dainze I have always found it odd that the contents of a wreck are considered reason to allow combat to retain, but salvage, which is often as valuable is considered fair game. So I'd support changing the mechanic. I'd also like to see a way for me to mark something as free to take with no reprecussions. A lot of times I don't want the loot or salvage and I'd like to make it clear and safe for others to enjoy.
So, you're another Carebear who's looking to cash in on every piece of the Mission Running pie, are you? I suggest you read the entire thread, as I have, before you lend any further support to the issue.
As a CSM Delegate, you need to have more information first, and since you received this designation after your vote was cast in this thread, I'll give you that opportunity.
We're Recruiting! |
RedSplat
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.12.15 17:41:00 -
[265]
Edited by: RedSplat on 15/12/2008 17:43:23 Edited by: RedSplat on 15/12/2008 17:41:37 (Nice to see some balanced discussion going on in here; okay i've only skimmed up to page 4 or therabouts so far so perhaps i have missed the vitriol and tears that typically accompany such discussions)
Originally by: BunyipActually, I take this a bit further. One of my ideas was to have anybody entering the mission area (if it's a deadspace mission) to be aggroed immediately to the mission runner and his fleet. This sets up an opportunity to counter the damage before it's done, with the subsequent risk of the PvE-setup ship being taken out by a PvPer.[/quote
The way you phrase that suggests that the prospective Ninja Salvager (switch that out for any term you prefer, i use it for convenience) would give aggro to the Mission Runner and that the Mission Runner would not give aggro to the Ninja Salvager.
Mission Runners already hold all the keys to the kingdom in any situation that pits them against people salvaging wrecks in a deadspace, as far as weighted risks in the Ninja Salvaging profession, giving the MR 'free' aggro rights against anyone entering the mission swings the balance even further in thier favour- highsec isnt intended to be and in my opinion shouldnt be a risk free proposal.Oh and personally:
[X] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks.
My own view and intention is that the moment CCP decides to make the (imo) misguided move to have salvaging a wreck flag you for agression myself and i know many of my professional fellows/counterparts will be wiping the flaw with Mission Runners all over New Eden. Please dont take this a a bitter lashing out at how unfair the situation would be- it is simply buisness.
The simple fact is, downing your average Mission Runner BS is considerably more profitable than salvaging, due to loot drops.
Giving MR's free aggro against people entering thier missions is i think going to, on the whole, create a situation where Mission Runners will only feel victimized and will demand further caveats to protect them in thier risk free isk making activities.
Something else you may like to consider, changing aggro mechanics due to salvaging will go some way towards stamping out what is currently a viable and supported choice of profession in EVE.
You will be forcing prospective Ninja Salvagers to fly ships capable of killing Missionrunners- obviously this puts the newer members of my chosen profession at a severe disadvantage. Do not forget we have already spent significant time (and thus capital if you like to rationalize it like that) learing the skills neccesary to scan down a deadspace and then salvage it!
(P.S what i do think is that players should be able to join pirate NPC corps, that we should be chosen to warp into a mission and help our beleaguered NPC corpmates against the tide of do-gooder capsuleers wiping the floor with them, or that we could scan down a mission; then enter it and immediately give the MR aggro and be allowed to attack the MR wihtout Concord intervention. Afterall, Concord dont save you from belt rats now do they? If that sounds intersting to you [i][b]please dont derail this thread but start another one!)
There was even talk of French toast
But there was none to be had |
Cyprus Black
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.12.17 04:15:00 -
[266]
Edited by: Cyprus Black on 17/12/2008 04:16:15
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn [ ] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic.
[X] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wreck.
It's not even a real issue and shame on any CSM for wasting CCPs time with this nonsense. ___________________________________________________ The Escapist: EvE Online video review. |
Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2008.12.17 17:27:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Cyprus Black It's not even a real issue and shame on any CSM for wasting CCPs time with this nonsense.
In Bunyip's defense, his post was made back before he was elected as CSM, and I do not believe that it is part of his current platform.
Otherwise, you are absolutely correct. There are many, many more important issues that need to be looked at, and Salvage Aggro is not an issue.
Working as intended.
We're Recruiting! |
Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.17 23:16:00 -
[268]
The only ones that would suffer if stealing salvage became a criminal act is mission runners.
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Xeno Xandovar
Minmatar Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2008.12.26 10:48:00 -
[269]
[X] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic.
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WheatGrass
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.12.27 14:14:00 -
[270]
Sorry. I couldn't sleep. -Was having a nightmare about someone salvaging my wrecks.
Neither of the OP's options fits me perfectly.
I think it would be more appropriate for you to obtain my agent's opinion on this. I suspect the pod pilot will wish to inform the agent who will, in turn, contact Concord regarding interference with a contracted pod pilot. Concord will then take a knock off of the ninja's security status and broadcast a constellation wide message such as, "14:03:55 Notify All Ninja Salvagers in the Such&Such Empire will be shot on sight! Interferring with Concord sactioned peace keeping duties will be your last mistake, Dedalus77!"
If the pod pilot is working on a non Concord sanctioned mission and get's ninja'ed, then the agent may wish to think twice before contacting Concord. If Concord finds that the agent is issuing contracts for illegal work then the agent will take a security status / agent quality hit. If the agent continues long enough with assigning illegal missions, then the agent will be forced to relocate to systems of a lesser and lesser security status -systems traditionally not considered to be mission hubs.
This solution provides a way for the gods to influence the feeble-minded for the sake of clearing out laggy systems. That is by tempting lazy pod pilots who are incapable of completing their own high level missions and by having agents in such systems assign more frequent illegal missions. Of course the agents will claim, at the tribunal, that "The Devil made me do it."
Give agents a break. They have much at stake seeing that their contracts are assigned and completed. If you mess with the contractor, you mess with the contractee and you will face the consequences.
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