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Quick N Easy: Ninja Salvaging vs. Salvage Theft

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Author	Topic
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.05.06 17:38:00 - [1] Alright, Candidates. I'll make this easy on you. Place an X in the box that is your POV on the matter: A Mission Runner gets a mission from his Agent, and takes off into Deadspace, where he/she proceeds to blow up all of the targets. A Ninja Salvager scans out the Mission Runner's location, enters Deadspace, and begins salvaging all of the wrecks. At NO TIME does the Ninja Salvager loot a single can. [ ] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic. [ ] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks. Feel free to cut and paste the above into your response, and if you would like, provide some verbiage as to your decision. It is NOT necessary to provide this, however, as I feel that the answer speaks for itself. Thank you.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.06 17:42:00 - [2] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Alright, Candidates. I'll make this easy on you. Place an X in the box that is your POV on the matter: [X] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic. Yeah I don't see why not really. Wrecks produce valuable salvage materials, stealing somebody else's wrecks should probably count the same as stealing from cans.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.05.06 17:52:00 - [3] Originally by: Jade Constantine Yeah I don't see why not really. Wrecks produce valuable salvage materials, stealing somebody else's wrecks should probably count the same as stealing from cans. The difference here is, you're negating an entire dynamic of Empire gameplay. As a Ninja Salvager, I have spent time and ISK to train Astrometrics and related skills to be able to scan down Mission Runners. I have purchased Salvager modules, and may spend millions in ISK to rig ships with Salvage Tackle I/II rigs to make the salvaging faster and easier. (They cost ~16Mil ISK at the moment - not a small investment.) Many Mission Runners (not all, possibly not most) do not salvage the wrecks in their Missions, and sometimes, these are lost to time when the wrecks and cans 'pop'. If you say "Salvage is theft", then you force everybody to stop salvaging, unless they are salvaging wrecks they create, and many aren't interested in ratting or Mission Running, or the like. The Ninja Salvaging profession is one that is becoming more and more popular, and there are ways to defend against it, without deeming aggro the 'be all and end all solution'. Mission Runners can shoot their wrecks. They can have a buddy salvage while they fly their Missions. They can salvage the wrecks themselves as they go. If they get angry at the Ninja Salvagers, they can Wardec them. There are solutions available. We're not going in and stealing loot. We're not going in with the purpose of gaining aggro so that a Mission Runner shoots us, so that we can, in turn, return with a bigger ship to gank them. We just want to clean up space a little bit, create some rigs with the salvage, and sell some scraps on the open market. I would like everybody to consider all players as equal, without making one group (Mission Runners, PvP Oriented, Pirates, Ninja Salvagers, etc.) weaker than any other. The choice to give aggro destroys an entire group, and should not be permitted. I hope this changes more than one person's view.
zoolkhan Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.05.06 18:14:00 - [4] Edited by: zoolkhan on 06/05/2008 18:15:43 A Mission Runner gets a mission from his Agent, and takes off into Deadspace, where he/she proceeds to blow up all of the targets. A Ninja Salvager scans out the Mission Runner's location, enters Deadspace, and begins salvaging all of the wrecks. At NO TIME does the Ninja Salvager loot a single can. [X] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic. i think deadspace is a holy mission runners reservate. _by design_ other players are supposed to stay out unless part of the gang. in non-deadspace missions i have a more relaxed opinion. seriously, if someone enters my deadspace i will shoot him immediately if it is 0.4 or lower because it is absolute certain he is not there for friendly reasons. I would assume he is there to provide jump in point for some "friends" the "ninja salvager" should take that into account :-)
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.05.06 18:19:00 - [5] Originally by: zoolkhan i think deadspace is a holy mission runners reservate. _by design_ other players are supposed to stay out unless part of the gang. in non-deadspace missions i have a more relaxed opinion. The scanning modules themselves present this to be an opposing view, however, since they have as much chance of finding a deadspace Mission as they do one in normal space. If it was 'by design', then the scanning modules would simply not work. It is by design that salvaging does not give aggro now, and I would like to see it continue status quo. What you are doing by changing the dynamic is leaning too far in favour of one group - without providing a fair balance. We're Recruiting!
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.06 18:22:00 - [6] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn If you say "Salvage is theft", then you force everybody to stop salvaging, unless they are salvaging wrecks they create, and many aren't interested in ratting or Mission Running, or the like. Why does it stop you? You might get criminally flagged to the mission runner making the wrecks but can't you just do it anyway with the slight additional risk of attack from the mission runner who's wrecks you are salvaging ? (or wait until they are gone) I really don't see the problem. Quote: If they get angry at the Ninja Salvagers, they can Wardec them. There are solutions available. I guess I just don't see the problem, if I'm flying through empire and I see a -10 enemy shooting a target and killing a ship and I think I can get away with it I'll ninja-loot the can just to deny it to an enemy of my alliance. This criminally flags me to the person who killed the ship and I am at risk for the deed. What makes salvage a different issue? Quote: We're not going in and stealing loot. We're not going in with the purpose of gaining aggro so that a Mission Runner shoots us, so that we can, in turn, return with a bigger ship to gank them. We just want to clean up space a little bit, create some rigs with the salvage, and sell some scraps on the open market. Mmm, but it seems you want an income source that sits on the back of somebody else's labour and lets you steal their wrecks without the risk of immediate counter-measures for the theft. I'm a great fan of enhanced pvp opportunity in empire and I can't help but think that allowing mission runners to shoot at people who are taking their wrecks is a good way of promoting this. Quote: The choice to give aggro destroys an entire group, and should not be permitted. I hope this changes more than one person's view. Why does it destroy you? Thats what I have to ask. Why not just fly a strongly tanked salvage ship that can ninja-loot the mission-runners wrecks anyway even if he or she fires on you? CSM Election Manifesto 2008
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.05.06 18:32:00 - [7] Originally by: Jade Constantine Why does it stop you? You might get criminally flagged to the mission runner making the wrecks but can't you just do it anyway with the slight additional risk of attack from the mission runner who's wrecks you are salvaging ? (or wait until they are gone) I really don't see the problem. The 'slight additional risk' that you speak of is compounded 100 fold by the fact that the best salvage ship (believe me - I'm an aficionado) is a fast frigate, so going up against a Battleship is a no-win situation for our craft. Originally by: Jade Constantine I guess I just don't see the problem, if I'm flying through empire and I see a -10 enemy shooting a target and killing a ship and I think I can get away with it I'll ninja-loot the can just to deny it to an enemy of my alliance. This criminally flags me to the person who killed the ship and I am at risk for the deed. What makes salvage a different issue? Salvaging and looting are two separate things, as per CCP. We have made an investment in the tools required to do this, and some of us are not interested in PvP or conflict, although we deal with it when it is thrust upon us. Originally by: Jade Constantine Mmm, but it seems you want an income source that sits on the back of somebody else's labour and lets you steal their wrecks without the risk of immediate counter-measures for the theft. I'm a great fan of enhanced pvp opportunity in empire and I can't help but think that allowing mission runners to shoot at people who are taking their wrecks is a good way of promoting this. A-ha! You've hit it on the head. (No, not the 'income source' part.) You said "taking their wrecks", and this is a misnomer. CCP has stated that the owner of a wreck is the Corp (NPC, NPC Pirate, actual Corp) that made the wreck, so your statement is incorrect. If a Player blows up another Player, and I then salvage that ship, I would agree to being aggro'd against the owner of the blown up ship (and thus, in a Mission, aggro'd against the NPC Pirate Corp) however, because ownership does not belong to the victor, this is where the issue of change is made. Originally by: Jade Constantine Why does it destroy you? Thats what I have to ask. Why not just fly a strongly tanked salvage ship that can ninja-loot the mission-runners wrecks anyway even if he or she fires on you? As I mentioned above, I'm not interested in tanking and flying ships that are not suited to the task at hand. I am interested in making my business as powerful as I can, with minimal intervention, much like those who play the Market do. If a Mission Runner gets upset, they can Wardec. They can salvage. They can shoot the wrecks. Why would you opt to give them ownership over everything, and adding perhaps 10% to their gameplay, (an arbitrary figure, I know) while removing 90% from mine?
zoolkhan Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.05.06 18:39:00 - [8] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: zoolkhan i think deadspace is a holy mission runners reservate. _by design_ other players are supposed to stay out unless part of the gang. in non-deadspace missions i have a more relaxed opinion. The scanning modules themselves present this to be an opposing view, however, since they have as much chance of finding a deadspace Mission as they do one in normal space. If it was 'by design', then the scanning modules would simply not work. It is by design that salvaging does not give aggro now, and I would like to see it continue status quo. What you are doing by changing the dynamic is leaning too far in favour of one group - without providing a fair balance. maybe youre right, that by design i talk about is not to be taken equal to "technically impossible" and maybe my POV is from the ages before probes were introduced into the game i am an old fart :P yeah, but perhaps this is the first time in the whole campaign where i lean towards those who arelady are punished by lousy mission rewards and are then too betrayed by salvagethiefes. even with aggro, its still pretty easy to "ninjasalvage" a mission runners several deathspace pockets, the same scan that finds the wrecks tells teh ninja also if the missioneer is still there or warped to next pocket. its still very easy to steal. i think my opinion is in favor of the balance , as currently the miossion reward is so bad that half an hour ratting in some 0.0 gains you more cash than those several hours level 4 missioning usually. this little cover is still not enough to even up this unfair relation. i have spoken. recruiting -forum
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.05.06 18:47:00 - [9] Originally by: zoolkhan i think my opinion is in favor of the balance , as currently the miossion reward is so bad that half an hour ratting in some 0.0 gains you more cash than those several hours level 4 missioning usually. I agree that Missioning needs to have better rewards, but not that salvaging is one of those items that needs attention. A Mission Runner makes approximately 500K+ from a Battleship, and there are usually multiple Battleships in an L4 Mission. (More, if it's a Deadspace Mission with multiple rooms.) From one Battleship salvage, there is usually one (to a few - rarely, however) 'higher value' items (up to $500K) and then there's loot as well. This is, of course, completely random for salvage drops. This is not so for the Bounty itself - it's not 'randomly achieved' - so you get it if you blow up the ship. Fix that - make better rewards there, for blowing up the ships, and don't nerf the salvager's craft in the process. We're all in this together - there's no reason to make Mission Runners any stronger than they already are.
Had Enough	Posted - 2008.05.06 18:52:00 - [10] Edited by: Had Enough on 06/05/2008 18:53:20 The wrecks don't belong to anyone thus there is no theft, the act of salvaging creates the salvage. Candidates please do some research on real world ship wrecks and salvage rights. CCP made it this way it wasn't an accident.

Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.05.06 18:53:00 - [11] Originally by: Had Enough Salvage doesn't belong to anyone thus there is no theft. At least do some research on real world ship wrecks and salvage rights. CCP made it this way it wasn't an accident. Thank you. That is an excellent point. (Are you running, by the way? You seem like someone with opinions that I could support.)
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.06 18:55:00 - [12] I'm not going to pick either option. CCP stated that all items that require a skill to process belong to noone. The problem is that a large part of the mission runner income comes from the salvaged materials. Thus the mission runner perceives it as theft if someone else comes into his mission and starts taking a share of his income, without having contributed to the kills or the mission completion. And it is logical that people come for the 'free salvage', because it has the potential of earning large sums of money quickly (and players will often go for the quickest way to cheese). I don't think it's a good thing to say "JUST GIVE THEM AGRO RIGHTS!!!" at this moment, when there are many other ways of addressing these percieved issues. I'll go grab one other potential solution out of the big hat as example. One of the big issues I have now is the lofty. People are totally discouraged to group with others, because they can easily lose their ship to this trick. Now, if this issue were to be fixed, then players could group up, a salvager and a mission runner, and share the profit. This is a beneficial construction for both, the mission runner does not have to spend time salvaging and will have a lot less risk of being 'stolen' from, and the salvager is guaranteed to get wrecks. It is not wise to pin yourself to the promise of giving agro rights to mission runners for salvage 'theft' when not all other options are properly researched. This is a complex issue with many underlying mechanics.
Had Enough	Posted - 2008.05.06 18:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Thank you. That is an excellent point. (Are you running, by the way? You seem like someone with opinions that I could support.) I'm not running no I just can't believe the candidates response to your question.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:15:00 - [14] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah I'm not going to pick either option. CCP stated that all items that require a skill to process belong to noone. <snip> I don't think it's a good thing to say "JUST GIVE THEM AGGRO RIGHTS!!!" at this moment, when there are many other ways of addressing these perceived issues. I like your way of thinking - very non-committal. (I'm not saying that it needs to be changed, but perhaps, there's a happy medium that can be reached.) Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah I'll go grab one other potential solution out of the big hat as example. One of the big issues I have now is the lofty. People are totally discouraged to group with others, because they can easily lose their ship to this trick. Now, if this issue were to be fixed, then players could group up, a salvager and a mission runner, and share the profit. The issue with the Lofty isn't that the Mission Runners have any recourse, it's that they choose not to use it. (They are warned, by the way, in regards to becoming a target, so this is an 'at their own risk' maneuver.) Most Mission Runners that play as a group all choose to be the 'shooter', whether or not they want to salvage. (It's probably because watching something blow up isn't as much fun as making it blow up.) They open themselves up to the Ninja Salvager because of their inability to choose to adapt! Most can complete an L4 Mission with little difficulty, even if they were to remove one or two turrets from their ships, and replace it with a salvager and possibly a tractor beam. Or, as you say, gang with a trusted player to have them salvage for them. They think that they should have their cake and eat it too, when it turns out, the cake is in the lunchroom, owned by the Corporation that made it, and not to the one who are already eagerly devouring it. Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah It is not wise to pin yourself to the promise of giving aggro rights to mission runners for salvage 'theft' when not all other options are properly researched. This is a complex issue with many underlying mechanics. I appreciate your opinion, and hate that you call salvaging 'theft'. Consider this: If Player A suicide ganks Player B in Empire Space, and then Player C swoops in and steals the loot from the can, who does he/she get aggro'd against? PLAYER B, owner of the blown up ship! If you want to give aggro, I would happily give it to the owner of the wrecks. If this is in a Mission, give the aggro against me to the NPC Corp, and give them 15 minutes to attack. It makes it more challenging to me, if I'm attempting to salvage while the Mission is still going on, as now, the NPC Corp might actively target me! That, I could get behind. "But, why?" you say. "Why would you support that?" Because - it makes sense, in the grand scheme of things. We have the ability to scan down Missions. We have the ability to salvage wrecks. Why not give aggro rights to the owner of the wrecks? You get it for stealing loot, even when a suicide gank took place. Keep the dynamics consistent across the board, and you've got me sold. Unbalance it, or turn the game into EvE Offline, and I'm lost.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:24:00 - [15] Well Tchell, I guess if you are doing your salvaging under the noses of a mission runner (who might well desire a wingmate or alt to be doing the salvaging instead) you arguably should be in a bigger ship anyways. Admittedly the salvage ship I use myself is a Hurricane with a decent tank and that seems to do the job pretty well, but I can see why you prefer frigate/destroyer for speed. CCP might well have currently defined Salvaging and Looting as two different things but thatÆs no guarantee it will always be that way. Things change and its unwise to hold up a current status quo as a ôproofö its meant to be that way. IÆm convinced there are any number of mechanics currently in play on the server that CCP just havenÆt gotten around to ôfixingö yet û so itÆs not a good argument in and of itself. As for the suggested counter-measures û salvage first and ôshoot their own wrecksö û maybe so, Wardec? I imagine the counter to that ôcounterö would be for npc corp ôunwardecÆableö ninja salvagers so might not be a good option for long. Ultimately though you asked a question and IÆve answered as best I can. IÆm still unconvinced by the argument that wrecks shouldnÆt ôbelongö to anyone for the purposes of triggering criminal flagging. Debate positions like ôccp intended it this way or RL salvage belongs to nobodyö seem a little bit weak. IÆd much rather look at the issue from the perspective of gameplay and consequence on the live server and look from the perspective of a mission-runner perhaps who is intending to salvage his or her own wrecks but since they only have a single salvager in their slower mission running ship would be continually beaten to the punch by the ninja salvage rivals. I admit its hardly the most pressing of issues at the moment IÆve heard, and does seem a rather niche dispute, but on balance I still think that the mission runner should have the option of firing on somebody coming to their deadspace and beginning to salvage their wrecks.
Arum Erzoh Amarr Kreios Imperium	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:28:00 - [16] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn [X] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic. This question has been asked of me before I think there's an answer that's not just one way or the other. I'd refer you here should you like to see an expansion on my answer.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:33:00 - [17] Originally by: Jade Constantine I admit its hardly the most pressing of issues at the moment IÆve heard, and does seem a rather niche dispute, but on balance I still think that the mission runner should have the option of firing on somebody coming to their deadspace and beginning to salvage their wrecks. I appreciate your point of view, and thank you for the discussion. You replied to most of my points with your views, and I could not ask for more. (Other than the 'right' answer, of course. - Heh.) I'm glad that the issue isn't pressing, which means that there should be other more important items which need your attention, if you do win the election. I'd happily support you sweeping it under the carpet and never speaking of it again, should this happen. I cannot, in good conscience , give you my Vote, and I will advise my Corpmates and Ninja Salvaging companions of my decision. We're Recruiting!
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:36:00 - [18] Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 06/05/2008 19:37:02 First things first, I did not call it actual theft, I called it 'theft', the quotes meaning that it is open to debate if it's actually theft or not. Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Most Mission Runners that play as a group all choose to be the 'shooter', whether or not they want to salvage. (It's probably because watching something blow up isn't as much fun as making it blow up.) They open themselves up to the Ninja Salvager because of their inability to choose to adapt! True. I've been mission running for a LONG time and I've NEVER had anyone enter my mission. I'm not too fond of all that hub hogging that people do, there are a lot of other places to play missions... Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Most can complete an L4 Mission with little difficulty, even if they were to remove one or two turrets from their ships, and replace it with a salvager and possibly a tractor beam. Or, as you say, gang with a trusted player to have them salvage for them. Correct. I personally have 6 guns and a tractor+salvage module, I'm running l4's and have not got any expensive mods fitted. I understand that not everyone can afford a marauder and the best mods, but it's not a requirement to salvage on the go. Originally by: Tchell Dahhn They think that they should have their cake and eat it too, when it turns out, the cake is in the lunchroom, owned by the Corporation that made it, and not to the one who are already eagerly devouring it. Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah It is not wise to pin yourself to the promise of giving aggro rights to mission runners for salvage 'theft' when not all other options are properly researched. This is a complex issue with many underlying mechanics. I appreciate your opinion, and hate that you call salvaging 'theft'. Consider this: If Player A suicide ganks Player B in Empire Space, and then Player C swoops in and steals the loot from the can, who does he/she get aggro'd against? PLAYER B, owner of the blown up ship! If you want to give aggro, I would happily give it to the owner of the wrecks. If this is in a Mission, give the aggro against me to the NPC Corp, and give them 15 minutes to attack. It makes it more challenging to me, if I'm attempting to salvage while the Mission is still going on, as now, the NPC Corp might actively target me! That, I could get behind. "But, why?" you say. "Why would you support that?" Because - it makes sense, in the grand scheme of things. We have the ability to scan down Missions. We have the ability to salvage wrecks. Why not give aggro rights to the owner of the wrecks? You get it for stealing loot, even when a suicide gank took place. Keep the dynamics consistent across the board, and you've got me sold. Unbalance it, or turn the game into EvE Offline, and I'm lost. I must admit that I somewhat like your way of thinking even though we might have some disagreeing views. --- Consider voting for me in the CSM elections. Click the banner to watch the campaign movie.
Scaldari Anitoba Gallente Avalon WP2 Technologies Fang Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:41:00 - [19] Except that when you are flying against an empire, you get no bounties. that means that your only income for that time you have spent blowing up all those Navy BS's IS the salvage, aside from the little under 2 mil you get paid for the agent. dont play that Bounty card, my last 3 l4 missions have been against empire. The only saving grace on them has been the salvage i gain AFTER i have cleared the mission with my BS, which i in turn strip of loot and salvage. And i have my answer to you salvage thieves. I keep a Suicide Bomber on hand in each system i mission in <thats usualy 3 per agent> , i find you in my mish, then next thing you see will be 3 cruise missile launchers seeking your death, concord be damned. I will even go for your Pod if given time. Your thieving Hide will Burn.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:52:00 - [20] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah I must admit that I somewhat like your way of thinking even though we might have some disagreeing views. Thank you for the compliment! I have to say that I appreciate your point of view, even though we may be on different sides. My choice for creating a Corp dedicated to Ninja Salvaging was to bring some credibility to the profession itself. I'm not a fan of Ninja Salvagers hiding in NPC Corps, because there is no reason for anyone to play on their own without the support of Corpmates. Personally, I have dedicated myself to the task of finding something 'new' in EvE, and while Ninja Salvaging is nowhere close to something new, I feel the ideals behind which my Corp has been created is. We pride ourselves on doing things differently - by working together, and thinking of new ways to do the same old thing. I believe that in another thread on the matter, somebody posted that CCP made Empire Space safer than Low Security or Nullsec Space, and that it was never meant to be 100% safe. I completely believe that to be true, for the sheer fact that we cannot play in a bubble. We need to interact - to grow - and, inevitably, to have conflict. Without this, EvE would be quickly become a single player game that could be played without caring, or without consequence. That being said, you are still being considered, however, if someone comes in and guarantees that this option is not to be touched, they may be able to present a stronger case. I definitely appreciate your feedback. Originally by: Scaldari Anitoba Massive wall o' scariness! See what us legitimate businesspeople have to deal with? I thank you for your post, Scaldari, for you bring up a very good point that I missed. There is always the ability for a Mission Runner to go completely psycho and Concord themselves, while trying to blow me out of their mission. (By the way, where do you mission? I'd be happy to pop by, if you'd like.)

Naah	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:57:00 - [21] [x] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks. if someone is skilled enough to salvage they will do so otherwise leave it to those of use that are.
Max Torps Gallente eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.05.06 20:43:00 - [22] [X] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks. Vote for me here Candidate thread here Website here
Arithron Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 21:04:00 - [23] [X] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks. Seriously, how many mission runners spend the 20 minutes or so salvaging wrecks? Its more profitable to go and get a new mission... The Ninja salvagers need good skills to probe out mission deadspace. They are just collecting up the refuse left behind...if it bothered a mission-runner too much, that mission runner could ask them to stop, offering them an alternative if they continued...if you get my point. Take care, Bruce Hansen (Arithron)
TornSoul BIG	Posted - 2008.05.06 21:41:00 - [24] [X] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic. What CCP currently says really doesnt matter, when you ask what people "would like to see happen" - And the CSM is excactly here to try and change and improve things. So what if you're criminally flagged. If the mission runner really doesnt care about the salvage, he will be long gone before the wrecks go poof anyways, and you can do your thing. But if you insist on doing it right under the nose of the mission runner, who you dont know if he'll want to salvage or not, and even if you did, would you (plural) respect it? - Then you should be flagged, so the mission runner can do something about it.
MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.06 22:26:00 - [25] Edited by: MongWen on 06/05/2008 22:27:22 Originally by: Tchell Dahhn [ x ] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic. [ ] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks. Now when people start to östealö the salvage when you are still in the mission, there are no real way to get back at them since the ones I have seen in my missions has been in a NPC corp so decing them is kind of pointless. Nothing is more annoying than seeing the salvage that you want going to other players and you sit there with no viable option other than a suicide run the salvage thief, and if you donÆt want the salvage in the first place then you will probably ignore the one invading your mission. [center] ------------------------- Vote MongWen For The CMS. [Campaign Site] [Vote] [/
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.05.06 22:49:00 - [26] So many candidates... So many wrong...
Veryez	Posted - 2008.05.06 23:30:00 - [27] Originally by: TornSoul But if you insist on doing it right under the nose of the mission runner, who you dont know if he'll want to salvage or not, and even if you did, would you (plural) respect it? - Then you should be flagged, so the mission runner can do something about it. Congratz for taking a stand - little story, missioning in Dodixie a few months back. I leave can at gate labeled "coming back to salvage". Come back in Hurricane and start salvaging, in pops a destroyer. Oh well I figure - guess he's earned some. I leave him to one side and head to the other, he salvages battleships only (ok) then AB's over to me and starts salvaging the rest while I'm tractoring them. I convo him in local saying lets split them, nothing. He finishes the rest of the battleships, fine serp salvage isn't all that anyway. Then continue salvaging the wrecks I'm tractoring in. Wherever I went he followed to salvage what I was tractoring. Protected by concord, completely Risk free. And that's why salvaging needs flagging, risk vs reward. You want the reward, you need to take the risk the mission runner might just shoot back. Had he been somewhat polite about it, I would have let him salvage that mission and given him BM's to my next one, since it would have saved me time, his loss.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.05.07 00:29:00 - [28] Originally by: Veryez Protected by concord, completely Risk free. And that's why salvaging needs flagging, risk vs reward. You want the reward, you need to take the risk the mission runner might just shoot back. I have read (in another, older thread) that supposedly jetcans also used to have no aggro, and that because of overwhelming request from players, they provided aggro and then the players started complaining that people would 'bait' them into aggro, and then return in larger gank ships. If this changes for salvage, you can count on the same happening, and the problem with this is, Mission Runners are always setup for PvE, and not necessarily ready for PvP, causing more of a disadvantage. Personally, I'm against salvage aggro for different reasons, obviously, however, this is perspective that I hadn't mentioned. We're Recruiting!
Breha Organa	Posted - 2008.05.07 00:46:00 - [29] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn A Mission Runner gets a mission from his Agent, and takes off into Deadspace, where he/she proceeds to blow up all of the targets. A Ninja Salvager scans out the Mission Runner's location, enters Deadspace, and begins salvaging all of the wrecks. At NO TIME does the Ninja Salvager loot a single can. [ ] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic. [X] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks. Politeness requires that the ninja salvager speak to the mission-runner in chat. Perhaps the mission runner will pay for the salvage. I just don't think salvaging "rises to the level of an aggro'able offense". it's like impeaching the President for sex, not even really "good" sex.
Caileb Memorax	Posted - 2008.05.07 02:38:00 - [30] Edited by: Caileb Memorax on 07/05/2008 02:41:54 I understand that those of you that ARE Ninja Salvagers want it to be a non-aggro-able offense but the argument that the wrecks don't belong to anyone is kind of shakey. Yes I know that CCP says that they aren't anyones property on the forums, but have you tired to activate a tractor beam on a wreck that wasn't "yours"? It gives you a very clear message that you can't because the wreck doesn't belong to you. The only reason that CCP set the rules the way they did is because they wanted to produce another profession for those that don't want to get involved in combat. But sometimes you have to fight for what you want. What is so terrible about getting flagged if you salvage someone elses wreck? Because you're in a crappy little ship that doesn't have the guns to stand up in a fight? Well then to use that same logic, why should a mission runner have to mount salvagers on their combat ship? I agree that some mission runners don't want their wrecks, but some of us DO. And we've got the skills to actually KILL the ship that produced the wreck AND the skills to salvage them so don't we deserve SOME consideration on this issue? Put an counter on the wreck and if its not salvaged within a certain amount of time then it becomes open for claims. Or perhaps something on the character sheet that you can select that states that you intend to salvage any wreck that you produce and it is marked as belonging to you, look at a wreck sometime and you'll notice that it IS marked with the owner's corp abbreviation so this mechanism wouldn't be too much of a stretch to accomplish. I think that this wouldn't be an issue if there were more "Exploration Sites" that people who WANT to scout for places to salvage were seeded into system. This would give them a place to go to use their skills. Maybe have an option where once a mission is turned in then the mission site BECOMES a Salvaging Exploration Site. Anyways, salvaging isn't a complete profession on it's own. It's talked about as a "mini" profession. My impression of this is that it's something that you do along side a real profession like say... mission running or belt ratting. I run level 4 missions, I'm a High Sec Mission Runner by profession and I can't tell you how upsetting it is when someone shows up in your mission and starts salvaging stuff out from under you while you're still fighting. The mission running isn't enough by itself to get ahead in this game, you NEED the salvage to build rigs or yourself or to sell so you can buy other stuff to build other ships. I don't see why "I" as the mission runner shouldn't have SOME recourse where it come to legally protecting MY interests. It's not like I'm asking that Concord jumps in and kills a Ninja Looter. I'll do that myself. As to why we don't have a friend come behind us and salvage stuff for us, well, why don't you ninjas have a friend run a mission and you salvage for them? Hey, what's fair is fair right? Oh, that's right, you don't want to have to share. Sorry about the rant here, I just feel very strongly about this. Because so many players out there are crappy people and use subterfuge to get fights instead of going down to Low Sec or 0.0 and getting into fight, I don't communicate with other players very much. It's quite honestly easier to just do my own thing and not bother anyone else and I'd like to not be bothered in return.

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