Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Delici Feelgood
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 00:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
Given that the Assembly hall is considered a focul point of communication for players to present topics of interest to the CSM and as such is meant to be an official mechanism for obtaining CSM time and attention to a particular subject material or suggestion.
When we consider that we are now near to the time of election fever with actual voting it might be interesting to at least get some opinion as to how candidates actually see some of the everyday post election interaction that will be an element of CSM activity when afforded to actual player communications. At least from a point of view of how players can use these CCP tools to help promote their thoughts on game development.
I'm sure that candidates talk on the forums, keep appraised of player interest where possible and will even be receptive to personal communications of course.
Therefore, would candidates please provide their views on how important you see the AH forum and wether it can be seen as a valuable medium for player opinion? Please also feel free to voice suggestions for prefered communication methods and advertise your own "channels" of communication as a plug if you wish. |
The Mittani
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5581
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 02:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
Delici Feelgood wrote:Given that the Assembly hall is considered a focul point of communication for players to present topics of interest to the CSM and as such is meant to be an official mechanism for obtaining CSM time and attention to a particular subject material or suggestion.
When we consider that we are now near to the time of election fever with actual voting it might be interesting to at least get some opinion as to how candidates actually see some of the everyday post election interaction that will be an element of CSM activity when afforded to actual player communications. At least from a point of view of how players can use these CCP tools to help promote their thoughts on game development.
I'm sure that candidates talk on the forums, keep appraised of player interest where possible and will even be receptive to personal communications of course.
Therefore, would candidates please provide their views on how important you see the AH forum and wether it can be seen as a valuable medium for player opinion? Please also feel free to voice suggestions for prefered communication methods and advertise your own "channels" of communication as a plug if you wish.
the views of npc altposters are completely irrelevant except for providing amusement for those of us who post with our mains
hope this helps The Office of the Chairman: A Thread for Constituent Issues |
Ntrails
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
45
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 02:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
The Mittani wrote: the views of npc altposters are completely irrelevant except for providing amusement for those of us who post with our mains
hope this helps
don't post like that in sgbs or deadtear will get you
hth |
Delici Feelgood
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 02:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'm actually more concerned with hearing views of candidates who take player concerns seriously Mittens but thanks for offering your opinion (however unoriginal).
However just to help clarify your actual views about the AH:
The Mittani wrote:I don't go there often. The Assembly Hall has the odd good idea in it, but I think it should be merged with 'Features and Ideas'. The AH subforum is a relic of the first couple of CSMs when the CSM was considered a parliamentary organization rather than an advocacy group, and it deludes the players who go to the AH with the false hope that the CSM is like a 'space congress' where votes on proposals result in game changes being 'passed'. The CSM isn't parliamentary at all, which is why years worth of upvoted AH proposals rot on a backlog, ignored by CCP. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
61
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 02:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
The Mittani wrote:the views of npc altposters, people who aren't part of the SA forums and aren't part of Goonswarm are completely irrelevant except for providing amusement for those of us who post with our mains
hope this helps
Fixed it for you Mittens.
|
T'amber Anomandari Demaleon
494
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 02:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
All pilots will be able to effect my platform via a CSM voting/ issue tool created for this very purpose. The results of which will define my stance on particular topics.
Regards, T'amber
T'amber for CSM7 - Ship and Client Customisation Take part in the 2min Ship Customisation Survey www.tinyurl.com/shipcustomisation
|
Ntrails
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
45
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 02:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
A candidate whose only position is that they will follow the majority view of however many people bother to use a granular voting tool for each issue that they built entirely separate to, say, a CCP secure logging system?
I mean, I would trust that person to represent my interests over someone whose platform of pre-formed views actually align with my own. Wait a minute.. |
Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
1327
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 02:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
While I do keep an eye on the Assembly Hall and Jita Park, the best method is the most direct - eve mail. Over the course of CSM 6 I had several issues brought to my attention via direct contact. This can be something as simple as, "Hey, check out this forum thread." to entire packets of information / proposals. I try to reply to every CSM-related evemail I get and, on some issues, even take the discussion to a Skype chat.
Don't be shy about contacting a member of the CSM, especially if you voted for them. Seleene's Sandbox - My Blog, where I say stuff. Follow Seleene on Twitter |
None ofthe Above
104
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 03:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
Delici Feelgood wrote:I'm actually more concerned with hearing views of candidates who take player concerns seriously Mittens but thanks for offering your opinion (however unoriginal). However just to help clarify your actual views about the AH: The Mittani wrote:I don't go there often. The Assembly Hall has the odd good idea in it, but I think it should be merged with 'Features and Ideas'. The AH subforum is a relic of the first couple of CSMs when the CSM was considered a parliamentary organization rather than an advocacy group, and it deludes the players who go to the AH with the false hope that the CSM is like a 'space congress' where votes on proposals result in game changes being 'passed'. The CSM isn't parliamentary at all, which is why years worth of upvoted AH proposals rot on a backlog, ignored by CCP.
Hope this helps clarify why any non-goon would be a fool to vote Mittani. Others in the CFC I suppose could be forgiven, but I suspect they may regret it someday. He will turn on you.
Mittani probably was the right bastard for the job last year, I can understand the independant votes that got him the chair. He probably did more good than harm.
This year its fairly clear its time to cash in.
For example, in the eve-radio debate he blythely dismissed fixing bounty system as unimportant (likely becuse it would be more often than not be used against him and his compatriots) and stated his number one issue is that there is not enough money in null sec.
I can totally get why the goons are behind him, but I don't get why anyone else ould vote for him.
Even None ofthe Above supports Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM7! |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2011
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 04:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
Seleene wrote:Don't be shy about contacting a member of the CSM, especially if you voted for them.
This is what I tried many months ago....low and behold, it worked! They contacted me back. I strongly encourage players who want to be heard simply try evemailing your CSM representatives. If CSM6 hadn't communicated back with me, I would still be pretty jaded right now about the effectiveness of the CSM and would never have bothered running for office.
I think the frustrating element for many players is that the new system for getting things done on the CSM (the revolving door CSM / Dev Skype Channel) is a double-edged sword. It allows for the free exchange of ideas and more daily progress on the issues, and increased importance for the non-travelling council members. The drawback, however, is that there isn't a really good way to digest those NDA-protected discussions on a regular basis except for through more consistent blogging.
In general I think there needs to be less eye-rolling and hesitation about putting on the hip-waders and delving into the forums, even if all that can be said in some situations is "we've talked with CCP ________ about ________, we can't share details but what we've seen is exciting". Players deserve to know what their representatives are up to, and who is engaged in the process.
As for the Assembly Hall itself, the critical thing here is to update all the instructions regarding the Assembly Hall process. Currently there are stickied guides that still reference outdated procedures about putting up proposals and getting them "passed" by the council. This process of officially backlogging fixes no longer exists, but the fact that it is still stickied and described is HORRIBLY confusing for players. The thread and instructions on how to participate effectively need to be updated with respect to current procedures, so players don't have false expectations about how to get heard.
|
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2290
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 04:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
maybe the OP hiding behind a week old NPC alt never noticed that the forum it is posting in is specifically meant for the CSM to communicate with the players
maybe it is unaware of the 345 topics existing in this subforum, with CSM delegates replying to almost every one of them
oh well "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Delici Feelgood
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 05:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
Andski wrote:maybe the OP hiding behind a week old NPC alt never noticed that the forum it is posting in is specifically meant for the CSM to communicate with the players
maybe it is unaware of the 345 topics existing in this subforum, with CSM delegates replying to almost every one of them
oh well
Of course a vast majority of some of those responces could just be dismissing NPC posters or anyone who isn't a fanboi.
Don't see what your point qualifies really, other than the CSM communicates in their forum. Especially when I guess we should look at these things in a qualatative manner aswell as whatever "popularity" metrics might be granted them.
Where are the stats associated with outcomes from the official topics in the AH forum? Whats the official message of each of these points as represented to CCP. If we are led to believe from certain candidates opinions they simply sit there unanswered. Are we therefore to conclude that CSM simply represents their own forwarded points to CCP.
If so what is CCP's stance as to this obvious disregard to what the CSM duties should be regarding this, as represented in their white paper. Why has this be left as ignored for so long, potentially insulting individuals who have invested time and effort into representing issues in the AH? Have CCP evolved their stance that the CSM is all down to the democratic process with candidates and no longer affords an official process for players to interact in context with the CSM?
If so this places more importance of course in ensuring you vote for a candidate who can represent your views or enforcing that player interest in the CSM if the process is "lobbying". Can concede this as the current situation if its fact.
Does this belittle the process of player involvement to be concerned with the CSM as a result. Certainly if voting figures to accounts are to be an indicator of this, we would likley see that it isnt an indicator of player representation. So you could potentially argue that the Features and Ideas forum should be the more important medium for persuading CCP on development. Interesting that there have been voiced opinions that players percieve this to be the case of course.
Of course if it is viewed that voting is the only way to effect CCP development in an offical capacity it could encourage the view to enforce obligatory voting. As then at the least each player has been afforded the official opportunity of voicing their position.
Interestingly however, why are you Andski responding to a post from an NPC alt, I thought we held no relevance to you? |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
442
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 05:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
ban npc forum alts from csm forums |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2291
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 06:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
Delici Feelgood wrote:Interestingly however, why are you Andski responding to a post from an NPC alt, I thought we held no relevance to you?
i clearly spent /hours/ writing up a 3 line response dismissing your misguided and irrelevant opinion "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Delici Feelgood
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 06:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
Andski wrote:Delici Feelgood wrote:Interestingly however, why are you Andski responding to a post from an NPC alt, I thought we held no relevance to you? i clearly spent /hours/ writing up a 3 line response dismissing your misguided and irrelevant opinion
Your opinions did nothing to qualify anything other than acknowledgement to posting, you personally however did acknowledge the topic material and therefore the validity of an NPC post.
I'd also suggest to try reading more and perhaps debating with others if it takes you hours to formulate a responce of 3 lines. If not, At the very least maybe thinking about what you might say, than the usual impulsive idiocy might be of more benefit? |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2292
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 07:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
son if I engaged in a serious heated exchange with you you'd biomass your forum alt in shame
come with your main and i'll happily tear you to shreds "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Delici Feelgood
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 07:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
Andski wrote:son if I engaged in a serious heated exchange with you you'd biomass your forum alt in shame
come with your main and i'll happily tear you to shreds
Not interested in knuckle scraping. Kind of hoping for intelligent debate than flame/troll wars which isn't something I would like to encourage any further on the forums either.
Don't know what to say Andski if I have upset you so much, maybe you can't take the simple applied rebuffs to your idiotic statements. I mean you seem to want to dish it out, but seem to be unable to receive opinion in a less than "passionate" way.
Apologies if your mad, but then I don't suffer fools gladly.
Would a hug help? |
D Derp
xXxSePhIrOtHSSJ420xXx W33D4LYFE Fanclub
5
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 07:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
Delici Feelgood wrote:Andski wrote:son if I engaged in a serious heated exchange with you you'd biomass your forum alt in shame
come with your main and i'll happily tear you to shreds Not interested in knuckle scraping. Kind of hoping for intelligent debate than flame/troll wars which isn't something I would like to encourage any further on the forums either. Don't know what to say Andski if I have upset you so much, maybe you can't take the simple applied rebuffs to your idiotic statements. I mean you seem to want to dish it out, but seem to be unable to receive opinion in a less than "passionate" way. Apologies if your mad, but then I don't suffer fools gladly. Would a hug help?
I too, would like to have an intelligent debate on a small detail of a relatively obscure internet spaceship mmo.
Also, it's 'you're mad". You're welcome. |
corebloodbrothers
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
132
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 08:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
candidates and the elected CSM members shoudl reflect you and other voters. but i guess any candidate will tell you that. The forums is one way of asking stuff. you can bump posts and the number of replies will also be a indication about the relevance. For me as a CSM candidate if u like to contact me:
u can mail me ingame, this is my main u can pm me ingame u can mail me for my skype number (tonight i ll be on eve radio on it) u can reply too my csm candidate thread u can ask for my teamspeak details, so we can chat
also most candidates appear on blogs, or have own sites,
Ofc there could be done more, u could have posts sections for each different occupations, channeling ideas and opinions, putting them too vote and be placed on a idea/omprovement list, and as thus presented too CCP, through council.
judging by your question u feel there is a lack of ways too connect and get heared, any ideas yourself ?
greetz Corebloodbrothers, CSM7 candidate
|
D Derp
xXxSePhIrOtHSSJ420xXx W33D4LYFE Fanclub
5
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 08:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
corebloodbrothers wrote:candidates and the elected CSM members shoudl reflect you and other voters. but i guess any candidate will tell you that. The forums is one way of asking stuff. you can bump posts and the number of replies will also be a indication about the relevance. For me as a CSM candidate if u like to contact me:
u can mail me ingame, this is my main u can pm me ingame u can mail me for my skype number (tonight i ll be on eve radio on it) u can reply too my csm candidate thread u can ask for my teamspeak details, so we can chat
also most candidates appear on blogs, or have own sites,
Ofc there could be done more, u could have posts sections for each different occupations, channeling ideas and opinions, putting them too vote and be placed on a idea/omprovement list, and as thus presented too CCP, through council.
judging by your question u feel there is a lack of ways too connect and get heared, any ideas yourself ?
greetz Corebloodbrothers, CSM7 candidate
I take it you're not a native English speaker? I can't tell if you're just 15 or from another continent, and I just thought this was a relevant question to your campaign ad.
greetz Corebloodbrothers, CSM7 candidate |
|
Delici Feelgood
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 08:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
corebloodbrothers wrote: judging by your question u feel there is a lack of ways too connect and get heared, any ideas yourself.
At this stage I'm trying to judge which candidates view player opinion as relevant to themselves and in what context. It's also an opportunity to see which candidates are in fact open to be approached on issues and wether or not they have in fact done any preparitory work for candidancy as an awareness of it being relevant to them.
I pretty much already had dispondant views and was already apathetic to the use of the AH personally and would simply use other forums to raise points to CCP anyhow.
So far the common theme emerging in this thread seems to be that lobbying is the way forward. |
T'amber Anomandari Demaleon
494
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 08:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ntrails wrote:A candidate whose only position is that they will follow the majority view of however many people bother to use a granular voting tool for each issue that they built entirely separate to, say, a CCP secure logging system?
I mean, I would trust that person to represent my interests over someone whose platform of pre-formed views actually align with my own. Wait a minute..
:) Are you saying that crowdsourcing has absolutely no value at all? Obviously there are ways of championing a particular view on ideas/ issues by supplying said voters with information and data to back up specific views or issues before voting begins. If the majority vote against the idea then you've either not supplied enough evidence to back up whatever it is, or the idea is just stupid.
I don't see why a tool like this could not be useful, the CSM has been using crowdsourcing for a while and unless you can't get any participants or everyone troll votes (:|) theres no reason why It couldn't be used to influence a decision.
T'amber for CSM7 - Ship and Client Customisation Take part in the 2min Ship Customisation Survey www.tinyurl.com/shipcustomisation
|
Akrasjel Lanate
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
634
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 10:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
The Mittani wrote:Delici Feelgood wrote:Given that the Assembly hall is considered a focul point of communication for players to present topics of interest to the CSM and as such is meant to be an official mechanism for obtaining CSM time and attention to a particular subject material or suggestion.
When we consider that we are now near to the time of election fever with actual voting it might be interesting to at least get some opinion as to how candidates actually see some of the everyday post election interaction that will be an element of CSM activity when afforded to actual player communications. At least from a point of view of how players can use these CCP tools to help promote their thoughts on game development.
I'm sure that candidates talk on the forums, keep appraised of player interest where possible and will even be receptive to personal communications of course.
Therefore, would candidates please provide their views on how important you see the AH forum and wether it can be seen as a valuable medium for player opinion? Please also feel free to voice suggestions for prefered communication methods and advertise your own "channels" of communication as a plug if you wish. the views of npc altposters are completely irrelevant except for providing amusement for those of us who post with our mains hope this helps
The people that post with alts are still subscribers you know.. or i am wrong ? |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
74
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 10:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:The people that post with alts are still subscribers you know.. or i am wrong ?
An easier question to ask is "why are they hiding behind NPC corp alts?". Every single member of the CSM candidacy are staking their reputations on whatever ideas they bring forward - why should anyone else be exempt from that?
|
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
61
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 12:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:ban npc forum alts from csm forums
Make that bleating of your's your forum sig and spare us from the macro you are using to post the same line over and over.
It makes you look as a real dumb person if 99% of your posts anywhere only has one and the same line.
|
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
61
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 12:57:00 -
[26] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:An easier question to ask is "why are they hiding behind NPC corp alts?". Every single member of the CSM candidacy are staking their reputations on whatever ideas they bring forward - why should anyone else be exempt from that?
Since when does it matter if a main or an alt asks a question or gives a rebottle? Couldn't it be that he or she is actually a disgruntled member of the Goonswarm Federation and who doesn't want to get kicked from the alliance simply because he doesn't follow the rest of the herd blindly like the rest of the sheep?
Or maybe he just wants to annoy the hell out of you and Nicola from Cascade Iminent? It is working brilliantly because it's mainly Goons and Nicola complaining that people use alts to post instead of their mains. You forget however that posting with an alt is just as valid as scamming with an alt ingame. And you can't disconnect ingame and forums from eachother since both influence eachother.
So let me post yet another question.
Why should people be posting on their main if the question or remark, made by an alt, has the same validity? Also why should it matter who asked the question or gave the answer?
|
Delici Feelgood
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 13:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Akrasjel Lanate wrote:The people that post with alts are still subscribers you know.. or i am wrong ? An easier question to ask is "why are they hiding behind NPC corp alts?". Every single member of the CSM candidacy are staking their reputations on whatever ideas they bring forward - why should anyone else be exempt from that?
So why are the CSM minutes anonymous? If they were staking their reputations then at least the views of significance that we see in them would be identifiable. But they are not. So they have some editorial control as to which points and how they present their views officially.
We know that's it due to CCP afording them drama avoidance, or so we are led to believe. So if drama avoidance is so significant an issue it only seems logical that people make use of NPC alts to voice concerns to similarly avoid meta idiots who would use IG tactics as their method of finding a resolution to points rather than debating on the forum.
As such I don't think my gameplay should suffer as a result of other idiots not liking my opinions about game issues. And I guess democracy shouldn't be about bullying others into submission either. If anything it might be that the politics of the game are removed from the argument. Especially when certain CSM members will simply attempt to dismiss opnion based on your affiliations or status as opposed to actually being engaged in the points being made.
I do understand the issue of seeing who is making what claims, and can appreciate there is more conviction from someone who uses their main but political intelligence for self awareness shouldn't come before ideas and points. So in this way NPC also removes any pre-conceived notions of predjudice people may have. The end point being it's still a player making those points and as such they have valid opinions to be made. The simple action of dismissing these concerns simply shows ignorance and conceit to those players as a result. |
Bliswonowon
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 14:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
Delici Feelgood wrote:I do understand the issue of seeing who is making what claims, and can appreciate there is more conviction from someone who uses their main but political intelligence for self awareness shouldn't come before ideas and points. So in this way NPC also removes any pre-conceived notions of predjudice people may have. The end point being it's still a player making those points and as such they have valid opinions to be made. The simple action of dismissing these concerns simply shows ignorance and conceit to those players as a result.
Thing is, when you post on an anonymous alt, people assume that you have an agenda and are trying to make that agenda less obvious by hiding your identity. They assume that you're not here to engage in honest debate. This is not an unreasonable assumption, because the vast majority of internet forums alts are created for this very purpose, as anybody with any experience very well knows. The fact that you are trying to paint this as a character flaw of "certain CSM members" suggests that you, too, belong in this group, mister week-old NPC alt. |
Delici Feelgood
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 14:55:00 -
[29] - Quote
Bliswonowon wrote:Delici Feelgood wrote:I do understand the issue of seeing who is making what claims, and can appreciate there is more conviction from someone who uses their main but political intelligence for self awareness shouldn't come before ideas and points. So in this way NPC also removes any pre-conceived notions of predjudice people may have. The end point being it's still a player making those points and as such they have valid opinions to be made. The simple action of dismissing these concerns simply shows ignorance and conceit to those players as a result. Thing is, when you post on an anonymous alt, people assume that you have an agenda and are trying to make that agenda less obvious by hiding your identity. They assume that you're not here to engage in honest debate. This is not an unreasonable assumption, because the vast majority of internet forums alts are created for this very purpose, as anybody with any experience very well knows. The fact that you are trying to paint this as a character flaw of "certain CSM members" suggests that you, too, belong in this group, mister week-old NPC alt.
I'm not trying to paint anything about CSM candidates, it's a fact, its been admitted to as to the purpose of the CSM minutes being annonymous that it's due to drama avoidance.
I also find it reprehensible that Goons in the way that they have a tendency to manipulate the truth, missrepresent posts, disregard views, form unsupported claims, troll with irrelvant commentary, insult and degrade others opinions or personality. Or just general threadnaught from a perpective that perceived popularity is more important than actual debating content. Presumably because they also have an "agenda" of course. Maybe some of these issues should be addressed with more vigour than simply wanting to get some free intel. |
None ofthe Above
105
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 14:56:00 -
[30] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Akrasjel Lanate wrote:The people that post with alts are still subscribers you know.. or i am wrong ? An easier question to ask is "why are they hiding behind NPC corp alts?". Every single member of the CSM candidacy are staking their reputations on whatever ideas they bring forward - why should anyone else be exempt from that?
Post with your real name, like the candidates do then (effectively since their real names are posted as part of the terms of entering the race).
You are hiding behind one pseudo-anonymous identity complaining about someone hiding behind another, with no apparent awareness of the absurdity of it all.
Even None ofthe Above supports Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM7! |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |