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Mianna Foreseer
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Posted - 2008.05.23 00:21:00 -
[61]
If my critic was too abstract let me make it to IRL situation.
WWII start in a country X and country X call its men to the war. First it demand that all the soldiers need to buy their eguipments and pay the training and travel tickets to the front. Country alone dont back up you at all. Basic farmer may have money to buy a helmet and old 200 years old musket and get a training where he shoot twice to a old car in some field. Then he is thrown to the meat grinder.
Some rich nobles and industrial mercants may actually get some war machine under their ass. They may have some fun time since they get loads of farmers to gank on their machines but sooner or later they lose their ship too without much gains.
Actual war is that you travel alone without any much back up to the enemy territory and have intention to beat all the enemy forces you may encounter. Naturally as a part of a army you need to worry about road bandits and all kind of throat cutters in the way. Since you are no matter what, hopelessly out gunned and out numbered at the start.
Yeap....feel like a TOTAL WAR.
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Kuzya Morozov
The Older Gamers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.05.23 02:54:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Kuzya Morozov on 23/05/2008 02:54:43
 Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 21/05/2008 03:36:06
From what I understand a new level 3 mission in FW will take 15 jumps to get to, and then once your in at the target you are automatically tagged on the overview so anyone can warp to you.
For 15 jumps, and for basically giving up the protection a deadspace gives you you should get much greater rewards than 60,000 isk.
You should get MORE than a normal level 3 mission... or maybe the job shouldn't pay well... hell maybe isk should be completely taken out of the reward for FW missions, make it pure LP.
Not only that but then remove all isk form the LP store for the militia
If you think about CCP, this system you have right now is basically, go out, do 300 missions. thus inject 9 million isk into the game and gain 100,000 lp. Now go to the LP store and spend 100,000 LP and 9 million isk... wait that's pointless if the isk is needed in LP store as an isk sink for the isk gained along with LP... why even have isk?
You could still make a profit by doing the mission by selling what you trade your LP in for.
One nice side effect of pure LP only missions would be giving players involved a steady supply of "free" ships.
Hell don't stop there make these ships that the LP store gives out insurable for not isk but LP.
Meaning you take out your LP bought faction frigate into combat, lose it, and gain LP back instead of isk.
I don't know maybe I'm just really tired but I think it might be an idea with some potential.
If you're tired you should stop posting :)
Originally by: Mianna Foreseer
If my critic was too abstract let me make it to IRL situation.
WWII start in a country X and country X call its men to the war. First it demand that all the soldiers need to buy their eguipments and pay the training and travel tickets to the front. Country alone dont back up you at all. Basic farmer may have money to buy a helmet and old 200 years old musket and get a training where he shoot twice to a old car in some field. Then he is thrown to the meat grinder.
Some rich nobles and industrial mercants may actually get some war machine under their ass. They may have some fun time since they get loads of farmers to gank on their machines but sooner or later they lose their ship too without much gains.
Actual war is that you travel alone without any much back up to the enemy territory and have intention to beat all the enemy forces you may encounter. Naturally as a part of a army you need to worry about road bandits and all kind of throat cutters in the way. Since you are no matter what, hopelessly out gunned and out numbered at the start.
Yeap....feel like a TOTAL WAR.
Good job comparing EVE to WWII, I don't think I need to say anything else.
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Sturmwolke
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.05.23 10:35:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Sturmwolke
- If ever there was an aim by CCP to also include solo style play for missions in FW, I think it's been thrown out of the window. The above only encourages roaming fleet/small gangs play style. So we split the 50-100mil payout to each person in the gang then right? Oh joy!
Avg completion time shouldn't be a major criteria for adjusting payout, nor should payout be the only criteria when adjusting mission feasibility.
The whole point of FW is pvp, not introducing a new way for you to ***** missions.
And yes, "solo play" is not possible in FW, which is all about small GANG warfare.
Don't be so quick to state the obvious (which we all know), without fully comprehending the whole gist of my previous post.
From what I'd heard in the last live dev blog, FW was designed as a half-way house for many folks with different backgrounds to experience PVP without going into full 0.0 warfare. Joining the militia and fighting is all very well, however, in order to sustain their participation, many will need at least a source of stable income. If the [ISK rewards] VS [Time spent] VS [Risk taken] isn't worthwhile, then there is little point in participating in FW.
Now of course you could go back to Empire to do the normal things like missioning Lvl 4 or mine some Veldspar, but you also have this this additional risk being a war target for the other militias. Notwitstanding, you are also limited to operating within the Amarr/Caldari or Minmatar/Gallente borders.
As of a day or two back, apart from missions, I haven't seen anything else in FW that can translate to direct ISK income. NPC loots are all tags last I checked and killing a complex just gives standings & rank. I'm just waiting for CCP to explain the full workings of FW in terms rewards and whether one is able to sustain participation with it.
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Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.05.23 10:53:00 -
[64]
The primary reason to do mission for your faction is NOT money or Loyalty Points, though you might get those too though, it is to increase standing with your corporation.
Why? because that is what determine your rank.
Now we do not know yet exactly what the practical benefits of a higher rank means or if it is only a fancy title.
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Mr. Science & Trade Institute |
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CCP Gangleri
C C P
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Posted - 2008.05.23 10:55:00 -
[65]
Joining the militia will hamper your ability to get isk through conventional means, just like any war will.
If you want to go and run lvl4 missions in high sec then you can easily do that, if a war target comes after you then your navy buddies will probably be there to help you out.
The factional warfare missions and rewards themselves are not going to be very high compared to regular missions, but they are a form of "professional PvP" beacause the missions are intentionally focused on creating PvP situations and the agent rewards you for completing the mission.
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Originally by: CCP PrismX
Obviously this reply does not constitute a promise to do anything but I'd like to see the discussion take off and see opinions from both sides.
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.05.23 11:38:00 -
[66]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
Joining the militia will hamper your ability to get isk through conventional means, just like any war will.
If you want to go and run lvl4 missions in high sec then you can easily do that, if a war target comes after you then your navy buddies will probably be there to help you out.
The factional warfare missions and rewards themselves are not going to be very high compared to regular missions, but they are a form of "professional PvP" beacause the missions are intentionally focused on creating PvP situations and the agent rewards you for completing the mission.
Sorry but you are wrong. A war hamper your capability to generate income but they give you war instrument that normally you can't get (wasn't Rambo in the first film to say "During the war I could drive tanks worth millions, now they wouldn't let me drive a car to park it"?).
If we are working as solders the army payy for food, medical care, weapons and trainign. If we are working as mercenaries we need to bring our own gear but then we are payed a lot.
Having the drawback of mercenaries (bring your own gear) and of soldier (fighting generate no income) is a bit too much.
For an historical prospective of that look the desertion rate of the american volounteers during the Revolution, especially at the start of planting season.
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CCP Gangleri
C C P
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Posted - 2008.05.23 11:43:00 -
[67]
I was talking about Eve wars, not real life.
In Eve a war makes it very risky to run missions, in a militia it will be risky, but you will have NPC's protecting you.
Remember that this feature is meant to give pilots that enjoy the empire playstyle but want to check out some PvP a gateway to the more hardcore action you get in player run wars. It is not meant to be a fluffy cash cow.
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Originally by: CCP PrismX
Obviously this reply does not constitute a promise to do anything but I'd like to see the discussion take off and see opinions from both sides.
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.05.23 12:08:00 -
[68]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
I was talking about Eve wars, not real life.
In Eve a war makes it very risky to run missions, in a militia it will be risky, but you will have NPC's protecting you.
Remember that this feature is meant to give pilots that enjoy the empire playstyle but want to check out some PvP a gateway to the more hardcore action you get in player run wars. It is not meant to be a fluffy cash cow.
No "fluffy cash cow" ok, but the soldier don't pay the ammunition from is pocket.
Someone doing the militia work should get back about the worth of the ships he will loose (and those will be a lot) and some income for the time.
Do it any other way and people wiil try it for 15 days then, if they feel that PvP is wonderful, will become a pirate or join a 0.0 alliance.
Those that like it enough but don't want to do it as the only activity will leave the militia very soon as they will see isk and ships disappearing fast.
At the end it will be some lone player with a low sec base and a militia alt that will spawn the control sites to grab some easy tag.
Thinking of that if I span a militia site, enter with a non militia character and kill the NPC militia members, I can farm the tag forever? Better for CCP to implement a timer for despawn of the sites if it don't already exist.
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Sturmwolke
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.05.23 12:36:00 -
[69]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
I was talking about Eve wars, not real life.
In Eve a war makes it very risky to run missions, in a militia it will be risky, but you will have NPC's protecting you.
Remember that this feature is meant to give pilots that enjoy the empire playstyle but want to check out some PvP a gateway to the more hardcore action you get in player run wars. It is not meant to be a fluffy cash cow.
Well, the live dev blog certainly painted an interesting picture. Now, judging from your replies, it changed to something new 
There was never an expectation for FW to be a fluffy cash cow. If one commits to FW full time or even part-time, the benefits needs to be tangible. Why should someone join FW when they can join an established corp for more benefits? Freebie ships, ship replacement programs, cost price purchase of ships/items and most importantly, not on a perpetual war footing.
Yes, you might do a lot of fighting in FW so that you don't have to look and wait for hours for a target. Was this the intent? When you distill the current implementation to the very core. If so, then I'll bet it doesn't look very appealing to the majority of EVE players, except for the hardcore PVPers.
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Vibora BR
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Posted - 2008.05.23 15:22:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Vibora BR on 23/05/2008 15:28:47
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
Joining the militia will hamper your ability to get isk through conventional means, just like any war will.
If you want to go and run lvl4 missions in high sec then you can easily do that, if a war target comes after you then your navy buddies will probably be there to help you out.
The factional warfare missions and rewards themselves are not going to be very high compared to regular missions, but they are a form of "professional PvP" beacause the missions are intentionally focused on creating PvP situations and the agent rewards you for completing the mission.
So basically what you gain to risk your expensive stuff defending a Faction in FW is the chance to PVP?
You can't make ISKs properly in this period, you can't use implants for fast training and all you gain is the chance to PVP, funny.
Thank you but you can already do it with better chances in gate camps.
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Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2008.05.23 16:12:00 -
[71]
I gotta confess my enthusiasm for FW is starting to wane over the apparent lack of tangible rewards.
I've been waiting eagerly for the dev blog that was going to explain the rewards structure, but now I begin to suspect that we won't get that dev blog because there isn't anything interesting in the rewards structure for FW.
I still hope I'm wrong, but it's not sounding good from the offhand comments.
Based on what I've seen and heard and am hearing:
1) No interesting loot on the FW rats (on SISI, obviously could change, no hint that it will as of yet)
2) Nothing unique in the FW militia LP stores (hints that this could change in future extensions of the FW concept)
3) FW mission rewards deliberately much smaller than regular mission rewards, by design, for missions that are very slow to complete and very easy to fail
4) No tangible benefits to control of systems that you successfully fight for (still hoping this isn't the case, but none have been come to light yet)
What we do get is bragging rights:
1) Rank (a very pretty badge, no known effect on game play at this time, possible future access to rank-limited missions)
2) Positive standings with militia corp and (presumably) derived standings with others, both positive and negative.
There's obviously a lot I don't understand from a few quick trips out on SISI and reading these boards. But it's starting to get worrisome. Everything I do in Eve, I do because (a) it's fun, and (b) it lets me make enough ISK and/or loot so that I can keep improving my fleet. FW still holds out a lot of hope on the fun front, but so far, not so much on the "improving my fleet" front.
Can we still hope for a "FW rewards" dev blog, or is this a "what we see is all there will be" situation?
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Ironfleet.com |
Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.05.23 16:49:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Marlenus
1) No interesting loot on the FW rats (on SISI, obviously could change, no hint that it will as of yet)
Gurista loot from Caldari navy, logs included  .
Quote:
2) Nothing unique in the FW militia LP stores (hints that this could change in future extensions of the FW concept)
Nothing in the LP store, at least for now.
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Gypsio III
Bambooule
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Posted - 2008.05.23 16:53:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 23/05/2008 16:52:58
Originally by: Marlenus
careblah
PVP is the reward. It really is as simple as that.
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Greenbolt
Un4seen Development
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Posted - 2008.05.23 17:01:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Greenbolt on 23/05/2008 17:01:30
Originally by: Gypsio III
Edited by: Gypsio III on 23/05/2008 16:52:58
Originally by: Marlenus
careblah
PVP is the reward. It really is as simple as that.
this.
The whole point of this is to make a battlegrounds like isk sink where people go n get blown up alot for titles/achievements and other bragging/epeen rights.
If it generates areas with constant pvp..it will have succeeded.
My worries are :
1.Once a few alliances (Privateer or bored goons for example) / large pirate corps decide to just move in and gank everyone it will be like L5 missions. most people dont bother.
2. Because its going to cost isk to replace losses..and your at war everywhere..most FW members will be alts anyway
3. Im not jumping 30 jumps round trip for a mission period..long travel is boring. Not fun. Time sink which is a fun sink.
Possibel solutions that ill use to deal with it
1. I fully expect this to occur..and is as entended.
2. Eh who cares? Ill test it with an alt anyway and use my main to pay for ships etc
3. I guess better to sneak into enemy lines and just hope a friendly group makes a call for support where your already operating. This makes nanocrap and cloaking mandatory.
Just my random thoughts and worries.
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Scordite -Who was it that said that flying minmatar is kinda like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an uzi? |
Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2008.05.23 17:02:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Gypsio III
PVP is the reward. It really is as simple as that.
I'm glad that works for you. The hype for this expansion suggested there would be more. It's the "more" (or the growing concern there won't be any) that was the subject of my post.
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Ironfleet.com |
DigitalCommunist
Obsidian Core
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Posted - 2008.05.23 19:26:00 -
[76]
Yeah, just a thought buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut maybe we already have 0.0 for resource competition?
You make FW yield good monetary rewards and I guarantee you the big fish will come and eat all you little fish.
_______________________________
http://epicwords.net/ |
Vibora BR
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Posted - 2008.05.23 19:36:00 -
[77]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Yeah, just a thought buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut maybe we already have 0.0 for resource competition?
You make FW yield good monetary rewards and I guarantee you the big fish will come and eat all you little fish.
But the game updates shouldn't be for all fishes that support the game?
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Tyrantus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.23 19:43:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Vibora BR
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Yeah, just a thought buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut maybe we already have 0.0 for resource competition?
You make FW yield good monetary rewards and I guarantee you the big fish will come and eat all you little fish.
But the game updates shouldn't be for all fishes that support the game?
Explain then the cap ships and all the goodies for 0.0 only that have been the entier content for earler expansions? This is the first expansion thats almost completely targeted at empire players and a very welcome one.
Future Member Of The 24th Imperial |
Zhang Ramses
Chaos From Order
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Posted - 2008.05.23 20:54:00 -
[79]
How did the devs sit around and come up with this without anyone raising the objections we've seen here?
FW missions limit the types of ships you can fly and always send you into lowsec.
Lowsec pilots who aren't participating in FW can kill you in whatever ships they like.
You've gotta be nuts if you don't see that this warrants extra, tangible rewards. The fact that this is aimed at newer pilots seems almost malicious.
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Vibora BR
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Posted - 2008.05.23 21:35:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Zhang Ramses
How did the devs sit around and come up with this without anyone raising the objections we've seen here?
FW missions limit the types of ships you can fly and always send you into lowsec.
Lowsec pilots who aren't participating in FW can kill you in whatever ships they like.
You've gotta be nuts if you don't see that this warrants extra, tangible rewards. The fact that this is aimed at newer pilots seems almost malicious.
Seems as this expansion intends to give more targets to pirates and gate campers.
At the end they are also part of EVE 
Leave to God protect the noobs.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.23 22:05:00 -
[81]
quick point :)
If FW gave out nothing but LP, and it gave out faction frigates and cruisers then it wouldn't be a cash cow because these ships would be so common that they wouldn't sell for much...
then again you don't want to over the guys building tech 1 ships...
It just needs something, not isk based, for doing missions.
and if PvP is going to be as common as I think in FW then well.. if ships were easier to get for your faction we would see, more of the factions flying thier own ships, and more people going out with the mindset of, it's ok to die.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.23 22:09:00 -
[82]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Just to reiterate the point that we make every single time new missions are added: the payouts are based on average completion time and it takes a while for the system to populate with useful data. Until then the payouts are going to be much lower than you'd expect
Weren't you supposed to fix that this patch so that payouts started high and then got lower?
If they start low and get high later no one runs the missions because they aren't worth it. The system never gets populated and the value for the missions never reaches its ideal state.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.23 22:14:00 -
[83]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Yeah, just a thought buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut maybe we already have 0.0 for resource competition?
You make FW yield good monetary rewards and I guarantee you the big fish will come and eat all you little fish.
No, this would only happen if FW gave good monetary rewards compared to moon mining high end mods. FW can still give good money/other rewards without it being a magnet to large 0.0 entities.
There is nothing wrong with other areas of the game having resource competition as a driving force towards PvP in that area. Its only a problem when the buy in is low and the rewards are higher or as high as other areas where the buy in is larger.
I.E. its only a problem if the risk/reward is out of whack.
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Guldari Nokulman
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Posted - 2008.05.24 00:05:00 -
[84]
I'm more than a little confused by the "it to promote PVP that costs isk" stance. You can already very easily go and do no reward PVP in low sec, and look how popular that is...
While i can understand not wanting to make the isk rewards to big, but at the very least you should be able to get more LP goodies. After all isn't that what collecting the tags is all about?
Also why for the love of god is there a 12 jump minimum? Surely if you are already in lowsec that should be enough? 12 jumps will certainly guarantee action but I thought the idea was to fight in the deadspace, where you actually stand a chance against ships of similar class? 12 jumps just means you will run into a camp of ridiculous odds and fail. And if you run into said camp after 10 jumps, are you going to jump into ship after ship jumping ten jumps each time only to know that you can't beat those t2 ships in your t1's because you can only take t1 into the gate...
(takes breath)
Sorry, but the devs response to valid points has put me off a bit.
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Tyrantus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.24 01:38:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Guldari Nokulman
I'm more than a little confused by the "it to promote PVP that costs isk" stance. You can already very easily go and do no reward PVP in low sec, and look how popular that is...
Before FW low sec only lost you isk. Now with FW it will let you fight over hardcoded fps style objectives that give you tons of tags and faction standing towards your faction of choice. Missions? Dunno about them tbh.
Future Member Of The 24th Imperial |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.24 03:48:00 -
[86]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 24/05/2008 03:51:42
Originally by: Vibora BR
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Yeah, just a thought buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut maybe we already have 0.0 for resource competition?
You make FW yield good monetary rewards and I guarantee you the big fish will come and eat all you little fish.
But the game updates shouldn't be for all fishes that support the game?
unless the rewards for FW are not monetary, yes yes I know isk makes eve go around. with 0.0 space in place and close to FW why have any part of FW give out isk.
maybe my idea is bad maybe there is another reward that can help the player continue PvPing but still have to go out and get isk with missions and 0.0 space.
Quote:
No, this would only happen if FW gave good monetary rewards compared to moon mining high end mods. FW can still give good money/other rewards without it being a magnet to large 0.0 entities.
here is a great point, if my idea was used, you would gain tops a cruiser. This is not a faction battleship which can cost upwards of 700 million but a small cruiser wroth tops 10-20 million.
but by making these new ships more common they could be wroth 7-8 million. This doesn't seem like a bad reward, and if you never get isk..
The trick to it is the largest ship you can get into FW deadspace areas IS cruisers, thus I think FW should be based around frigate and cruiser rewards.
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Vibora BR
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Posted - 2008.05.24 04:05:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Vibora BR on 24/05/2008 04:05:29
I think that when you enlist to FW you should get in borrow a faction ship which you are not able to sell, trade and if you leave the FW it is gotten back.
Like a soldier when goes to war doesn't need to buy the rifle. In this way I would go fight wherever they want.
By each rank gained you should get better ship and war stuff, so at a very high rank the stuff should be given to be your as reward.
This just an idea that can be worked to became something affordable to the game.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.24 04:11:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Vibora BR
Edited by: Vibora BR on 24/05/2008 04:05:29
I think that when you enlist to FW you should get in borrow a faction ship which you are not able to sell, trade and if you leave the FW it is gotten back.
Like a soldier when goes to war doesn't need to buy the rifle. In this way I would go fight wherever they want.
By each rank gained you should get better ship and war stuff, so at a very high rank the stuff should be given to be your as reward.
This just an idea that can be worked to became something affordable to the game.
This another good idea.
However then there should be something you have to do to get the ship back... like pick up your new ship in the furthur system.
this way the more space you lose the more dangerous it becomes for the advaning team to attack.
Also it should be timed like once every 3 hours?
or just use my idea agian of you get a chgeap faction ship for running 30 JUMPS.
unless CCP does somethying else...
I don't know I find it hard to support an idea that would hurt the people that build ships.
so sadlly auto ship without anything even a 1 day timer once you lose the ship.. I can't support it 100%.
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Sturmwolke
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.05.24 05:20:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Vibora BR
Edited by: Vibora BR on 24/05/2008 04:05:29
I think that when you enlist to FW you should get in borrow a faction ship which you are not able to sell, trade and if you leave the FW it is gotten back.
I think the concept is fine, but there's nothing stopping the militia from utilizing these ships to blow other targets in Empire. If you can limit its usage within the warzone, then it might just be workable. Even then, god knows players will find an exploit or two to get around it.
From my own thoughts, it would be good if NPC militia corps offer all T1/T2/Faction ships, misc equipments/ammo and modules a a pricing determined by your rank status. It should only be payable via LPs or possibly tags (which could potentially be a candidate for an abuse). This way, you have a form where players are encouraged to PVP for more LPs, yet at the same time, replace loses without too much pain. However, as time goes by, there's bound to be a few uber PVPers with enough LPs and rank to cash in on the LP store offers and it turns into a cash cow ... so we're back to square one.
Another angle to look from is special militia insurance scheme.
- For T1 ships, Full insurance (at a very cheap rate)- INCLUDING rigs!
- For T2 ships, Full insurance (at standard rate) - EXCLUDING rigs.
- For Cap ships, well, hmm .... let's leave that to CCP
This encourages more folks to use T1 ships and ensures that newbies aren't too disadvantaged. To prevent abuse, this insurance should only be claimable in any of the FW warzone systems. So if you lose your ship in Empire highsec (or anywhere else), it's void and your **** out of luck.
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Tyrantus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.24 05:26:00 -
[90]
You guys are getting too deep. Use the K.I.S.S. principle and just make it so FW missions give out uber lp but crappy isk. The market will then sort itself out if a few uber soldiers who rarely lose a ship sell the excess off.
Future Member Of The 24th Imperial |
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