How exactly does streamlining and simplification make the game less appealing to new players?

So to be clear, if you start training BC, Destroyers, HACs, HICs, Assault Ships, Command Ships, Logistics, Black Ops, Marauders, Covert Ops, Recon Ships, Interceptors, Interdictors, and Transport Ships to V, you will get all the racial variants at V when generic skill categories go away? Sounds like a good SP investment to me. Sorry cap guns... you will have to wait. 4x SP multiplier FTW!

If they wish to cross train into a completely new line of ships, yes, it should take a while.
That's kinda the whole point of how skill training through out the rest of the game is laid out, always has been.

[quote=Silath Slyver Silverpine][quote=Morar Santee]
I'm going to exclude a few prerequisites, but to train into an Astarte you currently need Gallente Cruiser V and Battlecruisers V. If you want to crosstrain into, say, a Sleipnir, you'll need to train Minmatar Cruiser V. Now you'll have Gallente Cruiser V and Gallente Battlecruiser V, but to crosstrain into a Sleipnir you'll have to grind another rank 5 skill to V, another rank 6 skill to V and the skills for the racial turrets.

That's not simplification, that's obfuscation.

See through the crap, please.

For the stupid nubs, yes, but for you? NO WAY.

That's not simplification, that's obfuscation.

See through the crap, please.

Streamlining and simplification is the opposite of what they are doing - they are introducing four rank 6 skills to replace one.

I'm going to exclude a few prerequisites, but to train into an Astarte you currently need Gallente Cruiser V and Battlecruisers V. If you want to crosstrain into, say, a Sleipnir, you'll need to train Minmatar Cruiser V. Now you'll have Gallente Cruiser V and Gallente Battlecruiser V, but to crosstrain into a Sleipnir you'll have to grind another rank 5 skill to V, another rank 6 skill to V and the skills for the racial turrets.

That's not simplification, that's obfuscation.

See through the crap, please.

Newer players that do not have those skills already have lost.... literally.... nothing. They will need to make wiser decisions when they get to that point than older players had to, this is true. It is also true that newer players have significant advantages in gaining skill points compared to older players.

Newer players that do not have those skills already have loss.... literally.... nothing. They will need to make wiser decisions when they get to that point than older players had to, this is true. It is also true that newer players have significant advantages in gaining skill points compared to older players.

Before I forget:



What you are referring to as obfuscation is EXACTLY the way skill progression works in all other aspects of the game currently. If you feel that one skill should grant access to all racial variants of any type of ship that is another matter entirely, one I will happily debate with you in another thread.

Until then give us one good reason why Destroyers and Battle Cruisers should be exempt from the same game design logic that all other ships in game follow.

You might also take a look at the post immediately above.

As someone with a lot of cross training the idea of relearning skills for destroyer or battle cruisers is somehow annoying. Specially if you take into account that destroyers are of little use at this point.

Some of the ideas clearly make sense to me, than I still miss handling some points in your current schema.

New types great. I still love to see a frig or destroyer size logistic ship, for fast moving groups.

I totally miss something to counter blob warfare. Is there any incentive in this, that would counter bigger blob wins regardless of strategy? Something that actually would bring FCs to distribute their fleets?

So many interesting ideas out there (direction of hit impacts dps), sensor strength in dense formation ...

So what I see now mostly feels as if you make it more noob friendly instead of more interesting :(

Still change is good, so go on

Ok this thread needs some love now.


SKILLS:

• Destroyer and Battlecruiser reimbursement: it has been said before, but allow us to repeat again, that we do not want to cut ships you can already fly. Thus, having BC skill at 5 would mean you get all four variations at 5.


• BS skill at IV for capitals: alright, there is good feedback on that. Point is to make the progression consistent by requiring a skill at 4 to train for the next, higher size class, and 5 for tech 2 ships. If we feel it becomes suddenly too easy to train for capitals, we can always compensate by adding that time back on one of the other, support skill prerequisites for them. Same reasoning applies for freighters. The point of this blog is to specifically discuss such matters before moving forward with them, and for this, you are welcome.

CONFUSING BLOG PICTURES:

• Confusion between the skill tree change and the ship tree charts: the skill change displays where we want to bring you in the long term future with the overhaul, while the ship tree chart display the current, in-game TQ ship tree. We will show the updated, long term ship trees in the next blogs when they have been fleshed out a bit.

CSM NOT INCLUDED?!:

• I will be honest by saying this is due to my own failure here, please do not blame CCP, or any other employee on that matter. I just plainly and simply forgot to include them in the feedback process; I know that sounds incredibly stupid, unbelievable or even naive, but you have to realize that between various work duties, procedures that have to be followed, internal meetings and reviews, random design emergencies, questions that pop-up from your team, plus being split into different projects that have to be finished in time, you are bound to forget things in the heat of the moment for being tremendously busy.

I will not attempt to justify myself however, this was a professional blunder on top of showing a serious lack of courtesy toward them as individuals, but also as elected representatives of the player base.

Yes, I do fully acknowledge the value they could have brought to this blog before it was released. Trust me, had I remembered about it, this would have been done as it would have saved a lot of confusion here .

That is why, not only as a CCP employee, but also as an individual, I would sincerely like to apologize to every and each member of the CSM I forgot to include here. CSM, feel free to smack me in the back of my head during Fanfest to remind me that being absent-minded has life threatening, rage inducing consequences that should be avoided at all costs.

We will keep monitoring this thread and post updates in the next days if there are more issues coming up.

Just so I have this right.

There are many who think that it is ok to have to retrain what has already been planned, bought, and time spent training because we will be given the isk back and sp needed to retrain what we've already spec'd out and trained ALREADY ?

So you're ok with big brother (CCP) taking what you have already earned and making you do it over again because it's, well, only a little bit of time? Am I reading right?

Need confirmation that tech 2 ship types will be split to racial variants as well. I seem to have missed that.

This is so hilarious, there is no words.

The situation looks like this:
CCP decides to take your **** away. Many players had trained the skills to fly the ships in question perfectly. Now they will get reimbursed to the point where they can still fly the ships, but have to retrain some of the racial skills to V to fly them as well as they did before.
In other words: Even veterans have to spend months to train skills that never existed, were never on their skill-plans, and should never exist in the first place.

All new players will have to invest 4x more time to get to where the veteran players are to begin with.

Even if you give CCP all the benefit of doubt in the world, the most harmless explanation for this is that they realized people tend to run out of stuff to train for eventually. If you only fly two races (minus capitals), you'll train for three odd years and be done.
With this change, the amount of time required to cross-train suddenly explodes. For no other reason than CCP being too lazy to come up with meaningful content that requires skillpoints.
Instead, they give us the same content, but it suddenly takes 4x longer to train for. With the promise there will be more ships available due to these changes soon (CCP speak for: "another abandoned feature"). And the ships we do have get pushed into WoW-ish roles, whether we want to or not.


And after hearing this, you say: "Oh no, the reimbursement is too big. We do not deserve such a SP buff!"

It's no wonder CCP thinks they can get away with whatever. Hell, if I was a Dev and read a comment like that, I'd also put more crack on the pipe and keep pushing **** at my "customers".

Just so I have this right.

There are many who think that it is ok to have to retrain what has already been planned, bought, and time spent training because we will be given the isk back and sp needed to retrain what we've already spec'd out and trained ALREADY ?

So you're ok with big brother (CCP) taking what you have already earned and making you do it over again because it's, well, only a little bit of time? Am I reading right?