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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 22 post(s) |
Vahu Shamy
Tr0pa de elite. G00DFELLAS
0
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Posted - 2012.03.07 09:46:00 -
[1081] - Quote
Finally! Good direction here CCP. But just keep the BS V requirement for caps |
Jane Bahna
Freelance Tech Industries Cascade Associates
0
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Posted - 2012.03.07 09:49:00 -
[1082] - Quote
New ship lines: need more details on how this will affect the ships .. so far nothing to comment New Racial skills: I feel sorry for all new players, who have to train 4times more for more cross-racial training. BC skill with x6 multiplier and aprox 30 days to L V, thats 4 months instead of 1 (lolz). You need to be super-sure you want this to happen. Caps with BS IV: Thats just stupid. That being sad, let's remind us that subcap gunnery skills (small/med/large) require L 3 of their lower versions with caps gunnery skills require large L V. So inhere are caps already different, lets keep 'em that way in ships tree as well. Or this will also change ? Skills reimb.: I foresee huge SP boosts, I bet pro character sellers already adjusted the plans :)
keep the ideas coming :P
EDIT: with the all rebalancing ideas flying around, I would really like to see Drone skills to be adjusted finally |
Tuggboat
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
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Posted - 2012.03.07 09:49:00 -
[1083] - Quote
I would like to see some discussion on why ship tiers prevent you from adding slots and also what ships would make up which ship lines and whether we need an additional line or two. Are the ship lines built around ground or navel metaphors and does it matter are some things I'd like to discuss but.
All I see is a thread about skill point balance rather than ship balance. WOuld it be ok to open up discussion of this in the ships and module section or where does it belong? General will get buried in a day and trolled to death so CCP where do we talk about the dev blog at? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5424
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Posted - 2012.03.07 09:50:00 -
[1084] - Quote
wallenbergaren wrote:I still haven't heard a good reason for this BC skill change. Certainly not one good enough to justify it. Splitting one ship skill into four different ones is a very dramatic change. It needs to be motivated by a very good reason, not "oh, we think it'd be more consistent". Consistency is a very good reason. This change also decouples a number of skill requirements to create categorical GÇ£roleGÇ¥ and GÇ£hullGÇ¥ skills that combine to give you access to any one specific ship. This, in turn, makes it far easier for new players to specialise and GÇ£catch upGÇ¥ with older players, and the only downside is that cross-training is very slightly more costly than before GÇö it hits the mid-to-long-term players more than anyone and simply presents a new decision point on top of the many new decisions created by the aforementioned decoupling of hull and role.
Tallian Saotome wrote:I'm not too fond of the dumbing down I see behind making ship progression more linear, and making capitals easier to get into. GǪand as a result of these increased choices and decision points, this change does the exact opposite of dumbing the game down: it makes the game smarter. It lets you plan your progression in finer detail and lets the smart player squeeze more out of the system than the dumb one.
More decisions and more consequences GÇ£smartensGÇ¥ the game GÇö it does not dumb it down.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Kvikindi
Sultans of Shwing
0
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Posted - 2012.03.07 09:53:00 -
[1085] - Quote
I'd say put all racial shipclass prerequisites to lvl V Amarr Frigate V -> Amarr Destroyer V -> Amarr Cruiser V etc.
maybe slightly lower their rank so the total training time isn't so huge. But in general this would mean player needs so specialize/focus either in race or ship class... this way you cant just crosstrain every t1 (capital) ship in game so easily
P.S. all "high sp" toons stop whining about the bc V, ccp will figure out a reimbursement... besides.... changes (good or bad) makes this game interesting for us old farts out there :D |
Noran Talidan
Unity College
2
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Posted - 2012.03.07 09:53:00 -
[1086] - Quote
Tuggboat wrote:All I see is a thread about skill point balance rather than ship balance. WOuld it be ok to open up discussion of this in the ships and module section or where does it belong? General will get buried in a day and trolled to death so CCP where do we talk about the dev blog at?
Exactly I am far more worried about the ships then the skills... skills can be fixed... but please be carful not to break the ships.... I like my navy geddon!!! |
Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1040
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 09:54:00 -
[1087] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:The skill requirement changes for destroyers and battlecruisers is very tricky to tackle indeed. We fully acknowledge having to re-train for ships you can already fly is not appealing at all.
As said in the blog, nothing is set in stone yet, we are considering various reimbursement options as this is still quite a high level change.
it not just not appealing its crazy. pre patch i can fly all cs's and all dic's. post patch im ******. i either pick to fly a claymore or damnation or a vulture (eos is **** anyhow) and then im screwed for the next 80 odd days retraining for ships i could already fly. you either reduce the ranks of the destroyer and bc skills so reimbursed skill points from the old cover all 4 races, or you just give people all 4 races. We'll find a suitable reimbursement that makes everyone happy. I'm not terribly fussed about giving away a little extra if it moves we move the ship progression system into a better place. Yea just make sure that everyone get same amount of "little extra" as in:
Player A gets reimbursed 1 million skill points from his previous skill. That get multiplied by 4 to match new multi faction skill. This = 3 million new free skill points*
Player B doesn't have the skills at all and gets 0 skills as reimbursement. That gets multiplied by 4 and is still 0. This is 3 million new skill points less than player A got*
Player A gets reimbursed 0,5 million skill points from his previous skill. That get multiplied by 4 to match new multi faction skill. This = 1,5 million new free skill points and still 1,5 million less than player A got*
*skill point amounts are fictional but provide their point in their context.
How are you going to deal with this?
1) Shall all players receive same amount of free NEW skill points? 2) ... or are you going to provide those free skill points by making the new skills 4 times faster to train? 3) ... or something else what I yet fail to see?
Get |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
445
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Posted - 2012.03.07 09:56:00 -
[1088] - Quote
Tippia wrote: More decisions and more consequences GÇ£smartensGÇ¥ the game GÇö it does not dumb it down.
As I see this change, it removes choices by channeling people into a racial path, which in some cases is a VERY bad thing(think Gallente since the nano nerf) which takes considerably more effort to get out of. It also forces training of things you have no intention of using(I have dessie to 2 because I hate the class of hull), which removes choices.
Short version: Not as many choices when you train, much more painful consequences, to the point you are being punished if your races core mechanic is nerfed, or even just falls out of favor as a fleet ship. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Jagga Spikes
Spikes Chop Shop
66
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 09:58:00 -
[1089] - Quote
having to retrain skills is small price for getting actually useful ships. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5424
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 10:03:00 -
[1090] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:As I see this change, it removes choices by channeling people into a racial path, which in some cases is a VERY bad thing(think Gallente since the nano nerf) which takes considerably more effort to get out of. No, it just adds a bit more gravitas to the choice GÇö it does not remove any.
Quote:It also forces training of things you have no intention of using(I have dessie to 2 because I hate the class of hull), which removes choices. Actually, it does away with many of those choices and the ones they add (Dessy IV and BC IV) are so insignificant that they don't matter on the scale of things. In exchange, you can specify what you want to train far better than before since they're removing the cross-tier requirements: if you want to train HACs, you can simply train HACs GÇö no need for the frigate nonsense; if you want to train Fleet CS, you can train Fleet CS and not have to care about the Logi nonsense.
You get more choices, and very little in added consequences since the ship skills are still a rather minor part of what you need to train in order to go for width rather than depth. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
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RavenNyx
The Cursed Navy Tactical Narcotics Team
13
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Posted - 2012.03.07 10:04:00 -
[1091] - Quote
Tippia wrote:RavenNyx wrote:You'll remove the "Battlecruiser" skill and replace it with "[RACE] Battlecruiser" skills. That's great... You did stop to include stuff like f.ex. "Angel Cruiser" or "Sansha Carrier" too, right? I mean, to avoid MAJOR inconsistencies in your idea, already at birth? What's inconsistent about it? We already have racial cruiser skills GÇö 2+ù racial cruiser = pirate cruiser. So why would they have to suddenly introduce [pirate] cruiser skills all of a sudden? We have inconsistencies now, and we've learned to live with them. Now they're refractoring the whole setup, and that should bring consistency back to New Eden. It makes as much sense to have two different CR-skills given access to one ship, as one BC skill giving access to 8 ships. Consistency, please, or leave it be...
Tippia wrote:RavenNyx wrote:And the skillpoint idea - what a lovely thought... I trust that you'll reimburse all my training-time on medium lasers, and the time I spent training for medium hybrids too, right? Why would they? You'll still be able to use those skills (and ships). They'll take my only reason to have spent 60 days worth of skillpoints away, and that I'm not to see as a problem? No, I would not use reimbursed skillpoints to get Gallente BC to 5, nor would I use it to get Amarr BC to 5. I don't fly AHACs, so no need for lazers and rails on anything is just silly (except for the naga - makes kind of sense there) + my normal PvP routine doesn't take me close enough for blasters anyway, so... They're trained now, because of legacy and because I enjoy to have fun in a Harbinger or a Brutix from time to time, but there's no real reason to have them trained if I can't fly the BC. |
Tizmen
0
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Posted - 2012.03.07 10:12:00 -
[1092] - Quote
Hopefully they are just trolling us.
I can't see how this can be good in any way. More skills for people train? If anything you should be removing skills, not adding more!
we just got rid of learning skills FFS. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5424
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 10:12:00 -
[1093] - Quote
RavenNyx wrote:We have inconsistencies now, and we've learned to live with them. Now they're refractoring the whole setup, and that should bring consistency back to New Eden. It makes as much sense to have two different CR-skills given access to one ship, as one BC skill giving access to 8 ships. Consistency, please, or leave it be... The question remains: where is the inconsistency? Each pirate faction consists of a mix of two races GÇö it's right there in the RP. What's inconsistent about the pirate faction ships requiring the two racial skills? That's like calling it inconsistent that you need Caldari Cruiser to fly the Navy Caracal.
Quote:They'll take my only reason to have spent 60 days worth of skillpoints away, and that I'm not to see as a problem? No, I would not use reimbursed skillpoints to get Gallente BC to 5, nor would I use it to get Amarr BC to 5. I don't fly AHACs, so no need for lazers and rails on anything is just silly (except for the naga - makes kind of sense there) + my normal PvP routine doesn't take me close enough for blasters anyway, so... They're trained now, because of legacy and because I enjoy to have fun in a Harbinger or a Brutix from time to time, but there's no real reason to have them trained if I can't fly the BC. GǪbut you will be able to fly the BC, so what has been GÇ£thrown awayGÇ¥? If you didn't want those skillpoints, why did you get them (and why should they reimburse you for your poor judgement)? If you did want them, and enjoy flying the ships they provide you with, then they're not wasted now are they? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
445
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 10:13:00 -
[1094] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:As I see this change, it removes choices by channeling people into a racial path, which in some cases is a VERY bad thing(think Gallente since the nano nerf) which takes considerably more effort to get out of. No, it just adds a bit more gravitas to the choice GÇö it does not remove any. Quote:It also forces training of things you have no intention of using(I have dessie to 2 because I hate the class of hull), which removes choices. Actually, it does away with many of those choices and the ones they add (Dessy IV and BC IV) are so insignificant that they don't matter on the scale of things. In exchange, you can specify what you want to train far better than before since they're removing the cross-tier requirements: if you want to train HACs, you can simply train HACs GÇö no need for the frigate nonsense; if you want to train Fleet CS, you can train Fleet CS and not have to care about the Logi nonsense. You get more choices, and very little in added consequences since the ship skills are still a rather minor part of what you need to train in order to go for width rather than depth. Well, you are caldari, and I know you don't take part in large fleets, so you haven't experienced the pain of being a gallente subcap pilot in Eve for the past few years. As things stand, it is fairly easy to cross train to a new race(only takes about a month to train into a battleship able to fit meta 4 large guns, if you are crosstraining). Then again, what we are conditioned to think of as 'easy' in eve is pretty skewed already, considering you can max out at the most popular MMO in the world in 14 days.
If we know that tomorrow minmatar ships will be as good as gallente will be as good as caldari will be as good as amarr, and all will be able to be built to the same performance profiles so they can keep up in a fleet, making cross training harder will be ok. Till that day lets keep race loyalty a personal choice, and let those of us who are trying to compete not be forced to effectively start over.
Edit: having BCs crosstrainable in a week or 2 is a huge help too when you have to comply with fleet doctrines. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Jagga Spikes
Spikes Chop Shop
66
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 10:21:00 -
[1095] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:... Edit: having BCs crosstrainable in a week or 2 is a huge help too when you have to comply with fleet doctrines.
fleet doctrines are derivative. if ships change, fleet doctrines will change. hopefully, EVE will get cured of homogenity in fleet composition. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5424
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 10:23:00 -
[1096] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Well, you are caldari, and I know you don't take part in large fleets, so you haven't experienced the pain of being a gallente subcap pilot in Eve for the past few years. GǪyou mean aside from me training Gallente as my first race and having used those ships pretty much exclusively back in my large-fleet days? Yeah, no, assumptions are bad for you so stop using them because they can only ever make you look foolish.
Quote:As things stand, it is fairly easy to cross train to a new race(only takes about a month to train into a battleship able to fit meta 4 large guns, if you are crosstraining). GǪand after this change, the difficulty is pretty much the same. The only difference is that you need to get Destroyers IV (a day an a half) to go to Cruisers and above, and Battlecruiser IV (4 days) to go to Battleships and above. Unless you absolutely have to have BC V or Dessy V, that's the only difference, and if you're getting that BC V to get into command ships, this new setup is actually faster than the old one.
Quote:having BCs crosstrainable in a week or 2 is a huge help too when you have to comply with fleet doctrines. Fun fact: BC will still be cross-trainable in a week or 2.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
754
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 10:25:00 -
[1097] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Edit: having BCs crosstrainable in a week or 2 is a huge help too when you have to comply with fleet doctrines. This is very much the central issue of this revamp.
What we're getting according to the devblog is a segregation of players according to race trained, making it much more difficult for someone to try out ships from other races at a competitive level.
This will make life for new alliance grunts hell. 84,000 AUR ($420) spent on NeX store for Troll and Profit. |
Melissa Brown
Project Stealth Squad Avaricious Cartel
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 10:26:00 -
[1098] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:It groups vessels into easily identifiable lines for each race and allow us to add new skills to support them. That is the purpose of the ship line skills mentioned above, which could further boost respective advantages. Combat ship line skills could give a bonus to defense, while attack ship skills benefit offense and mobility for example.
So you are planning to add additional support skills per ship line? WhereGÇÖs the benefit in that? Currently I can fly the Cane "perfectly" with all support skills at 5. After this change I will still be able to fly the Cane (Gallente char), thanks to the planned reimbursement. But I will need to train new skills for its ship line to fly it as good as before. I will need to do it for all ship lines...
I don't mind splitting generic skills into race specific skills as long as the players are reimbursed accordingly. I don't mind if you change the requirement tree, if BS5 for caps or AS4 for hacs are reimbursed. But I don't believe adding more support skills to a already long list will benefit the game or the players.
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RavenNyx
The Cursed Navy Tactical Narcotics Team
13
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 10:26:00 -
[1099] - Quote
Tippia wrote:RavenNyx wrote:We have inconsistencies now, and we've learned to live with them. Now they're refractoring the whole setup, and that should bring consistency back to New Eden. It makes as much sense to have two different CR-skills given access to one ship, as one BC skill giving access to 8 ships. Consistency, please, or leave it be... The question remains: where is the inconsistency? Each pirate faction consists of a mix of two races GÇö it's right there in the RP. What's inconsistent about the pirate faction ships requiring the two racial skills? That's like calling it inconsistent that you need Caldari Cruiser to fly the Navy Caracal. So, a different pattern of a racial faction ship, that's your argument. It's the same hull? Same goes for all the racial factions' stuff. Read the description of the republic fleet firetail f.ex. - based on a rifter-hull. The navy caracal - even the name is the same, the pattern is not... I don't really care for RP in this context. If the RP-element said that Amarr had the greatest ships in all of New Eden, and it was depicted in the balancing of the ships, you see nothing but amarr ships out there - it'd be Amarr online instead...
Tippia wrote:RavenNyx wrote:They'll take my only reason to have spent 60 days worth of skillpoints away, and that I'm not to see as a problem? No, I would not use reimbursed skillpoints to get Gallente BC to 5, nor would I use it to get Amarr BC to 5. I don't fly AHACs, so no need for lazers and rails on anything is just silly (except for the naga - makes kind of sense there) + my normal PvP routine doesn't take me close enough for blasters anyway, so... They're trained now, because of legacy and because I enjoy to have fun in a Harbinger or a Brutix from time to time, but there's no real reason to have them trained if I can't fly the BC. GǪbut you will be able to fly the BC, so what has been Gǣthrown awayGǥ? If you didn't want those skillpoints, why did you get them (and why should they reimburse you for your poor judgement)? If you did want them, and enjoy flying the ships they provide you with, then they're not wasted now are they? Theory-crafting and nitpicking - I love it :) now go play troll with someone who likes that stuff... |
Echo Mande
21
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Posted - 2012.03.07 10:27:00 -
[1100] - Quote
An interesting blog and one I'll have to think on for a bit.
Some questions (which may already have been answered; I haven't read the threadnaught) - Battlecruisers V is currently a prerequisite for Command Ships skill, with racial cruiser V and (support ship skill) IV needed to fly the ship. I take it that will be changed to avoid creating 4 racial command ship skills
- Will the current requirements for the Covetor be fixed? Currently it has the same requirements (except for exhumers skill) as a hulk resulting in everybody sticking with retrievers while training up. I would suggest changing either the required mining barge skill or astrogeology skill to IV. Dropping both to IV would IMO be overkill
- It's always amused me that flying a freighter required Advanced Spaceship Command skill while flying an Orca, which is the same size, only required Spaceship Command V. Will this be changed
- Any thoughts on integrating the Industrial Command Ships and Capital Industrial Ships skills? The ships involved have broadly the same purpose (boost/haul) and the Rorqual specific bits (Capital ships skill) could easily be taken out. It could result in the following skill: Industrial Command (requires mining barge V, Leadership V, Mining Director I). To fly an Orca you'd need this at level I and Spaceship Command V (or Advanced Spaceship Command I). To fly a Rorqual you might need this skill at III-IV plus Capital Ships II (and Jump skills of course)
- On a further note, any thoughts on removing Spaceship Command/Advanced Spaceship Command/Capital Ships skill as a prerequisite from the various ship type skills and implementing them as a (higher level) ship secondary skill (if they aren't already there)? For instance, an Archon requires Capital Ships I, Amarr Carrier I, and Jump Drive Operations I. However Amarr Carrier skill also requires Capital Ships III which to me seems over the top*. A neater solution would be to have the Archon require Capital Ships III to begin with, with Amarr Carriers skill not having a Capital Ships requirement. In practice this wouldn't change things though the various planning skill trees would be weeded.
* Capital Industrial Ships skill is worse, with Advanced Spaceship Command and Capital Ships skills both being secondary skill requirements. The Rorqual itself also has Capital Ships II as a requirement.
Comments? |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5424
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 10:33:00 -
[1101] - Quote
RavenNyx wrote:So, a different pattern of a racial faction ship, that's your argument. It's the same hull? Same goes for all the racial factions' stuff. Read the description of the republic fleet firetail f.ex. - based on a rifter-hull. The navy caracal - even the name is the same, the pattern is not... I'm saying race GåÆ hull skill prereq. Pirate faction = 2 mixed races GåÆ 2 hull skill prereqs.
So again, where's the inconsistency?
Quote:Theory-crafting and nitpicking - I love it :) now go play troll with someone who likes that stuff... So in other words, you don't see it as a problem because you're not wasting any SP. Good.
Echo Mande wrote:Some questions (which may already have been answered; I haven't read the threadnaught) - Battlecruisers V is currently a prerequisite for Command Ships skill, with racial cruiser V and (support ship skill) IV needed to fly the ship. I take it that will be changed to avoid creating 4 racial command ship skills Most likely, we'll go from the two command ships requiring [racial] Cruiser V + Command Ship I + HAC/Logi IV to simply requiring [racial] Battlecruiser V + Command Ship I (and the BC requirement for the Command Ships skill will be removed since it no longer exists and since the ships themslves already carry that prereq).
Quote:- Will the current requirements for the Covetor be fixed? Yes. Specifically mentioned in the blog, at least as far as the Barges skill goes GÇö no mention of the Astrogo skill. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Jed Mosley
One For A Point Two For A Slap
15
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Posted - 2012.03.07 10:36:00 -
[1102] - Quote
What about making the bc skill a lower training time multiplier so that training the 4 new bc skills to 5 will take the same time or something along those line? |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
445
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 10:37:00 -
[1103] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪyou mean aside from me training Gallente as my first race and having used those ships pretty much exclusively back in my large-fleet days? Yeah, no, assumptions are bad for you so stop using them because they can only ever make you look foolish.
You mean before they became useless and were the one race of ship absolutely unwelcome in large fleets? Thats my point.
Quote:GǪand after this change, the difficulty is pretty much the same. The only difference is that you need to get Destroyers IV (a day an a half) to go to Cruisers and above, and Battlecruiser IV (4 days) to go to Battleships and above. Unless you absolutely have to have BC V or Dessy V, that's the only difference, and if you're getting that BC V to get into command ships, this new setup is actually faster than the old one.
So frigs 4 -> cruisers 4 -> BS 4 ~ frigs 4 -> dessies 4 -> Cruisers 4 -> BC 4 -> BS 4?
Sure doesn't look like almost twice the training to me
Quote:Fun fact: BC will still be cross-trainable in a week or 2. As pointed out, this change adds unnecessary crap that most people don't need and would never train for. I discovered I could fly a thrasher on accident because I passed it on the way to doctrine fits(only reason I trained outside gallente to begin with, drone boats are the true masters of space).
Do you know how hard it can be to get people to crosstrain as it is with just a few simple skills? It will be much harder if we have to say 'Train everything minmatar so you can fly this one ship required by the alliance' than it is now to say 'grab frigs, cruisers, and BS, plus a couple gun skills'
Even if the time frames were the same(they are not, they stated that they intend them to be longer for subcaps) the sheer number of skills get more intimidating the more there are, and the farther the player feels it takes them from where they want to train. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5424
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 10:48:00 -
[1104] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:You mean before they became useless and were the one race of ship absolutely unwelcome in large fleets? No. About the time when Amarr and MInmatar were the mainstay of fleets, especially for the ship sizes I fly. I'l say it again before I break out the personal abuse: stop assuming things because they only ever make you look foolish.
Quote:So frigs 4 -> cruisers 4 -> BS 4 ~ frigs 4 -> dessies 4 -> Cruisers 4 -> BC 4 -> BS 4? Sure doesn't look like almost twice the training to me Sure doesn't, largely because you forgot to add the things that actually take time when you cross-train. The difference is a few days, which is very little compared to the month you describe, which comes from having to learn new weapons, new tanks, new ewar GÇö the basic ship skills are a very small part of the cross-training slog.
So let's fix that list:
Frigs IV + Cruiser IV + BS IV + Small Guns + Medium Guns + Large Guns + Tank + EWar ~-áFrigs IV + Dessy IV + Cruiser IV + BC IV + BS IV + Small Guns + Medium Guns + Large Guns + Tank + EWar. A far cry from twice the training time.
Quote:As pointed out, this change adds unnecessary crap that most people don't need and would never train for. GǪwhile removing a whole lot more unnecessary crap that people don't want to train for and which sits in the way of people specialising earlier. With those silly prereqs out of the way, you can get further faster.
Quote:Do you know how hard it can be to get people to crosstrain as it is with just a few simple skills? It will be much harder if we have to say 'Train everything minmatar so you can fly this one ship required by the alliance' than it is now to say 'grab frigs, cruisers, and BS, plus a couple gun skills' Since all it is is two more skills that are done away with in very short order (and one of which is very popular for personal use), any added difficulty rather suggest a problem with your leadershipGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Viscount Hood
Gallivanting Travel Company Band of Wanderers
23
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Posted - 2012.03.07 10:54:00 -
[1105] - Quote
This looks fantastic it has needed overhall for a long time.
I'm really looking forward to the goodies CCP give us as compensation. 6million worth of free skillpoints would be really nice and while were at it can we lower the cost of my clone - 30mill is just plain annoying.
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Silath Slyver Silverpine
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
23
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Posted - 2012.03.07 10:58:00 -
[1106] - Quote
Still wondering why people think they should get free SP out of this. Namely, 3x more SP than they invested.
Unless you somehow trained your BC skills up 4 separate times, I fail to see why players should be given SP's to cover doing so. You trained it once... reimburse the SP's necessary to train it once again, into a specific race. |
John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
127
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Posted - 2012.03.07 10:59:00 -
[1107] - Quote
Here's the problem as I see it and there are many of us in this same boat. I've had Battlecruiser skill trained since they first came out in 2004 (?) and on most days, I will fly any one of three different types of Battlecruisers across two different races - Minmatar and Caldari.
You now propose to introduce racial variants of the Battlecruiser skill and whilst you may reimburse my BC5 skills as allocatable skills, I will not have enough skill points available to train both Caldari and Minmatar Battlecruisers up to level 5 which then means the ships I'm flying are not as effective. I then have to waste training time to bring both those ships up to former effectiveness. On top of this, because I have every racial Cruiser at level 5, I can fly every racial Battlecruiser but after your changes, I'm loosing the ability to fly two of those racial Battlecruisers which means even more time wasted.
This is just on one character. I have five characters that will need to go through this unnecessary change and it will cause a whole lot less aggravation to implement the tier changes without adding racial Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills. |
leich
Nocturnal Romance
19
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Posted - 2012.03.07 10:59:00 -
[1108] - Quote
These changes are an awful idea.
they are not needed
stop wasting development time on un needed changes
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5424
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 11:02:00 -
[1109] - Quote
John McCreedy wrote:Here's the problem as I see it and there are many of us in this same boat. GǪand if you look at the posts linked in the OP, you'll notice that they have your problem covered. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
445
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Posted - 2012.03.07 11:03:00 -
[1110] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:So frigs 4 -> cruisers 4 -> BS 4 ~ frigs 4 -> dessies 4 -> Cruisers 4 -> BC 4 -> BS 4? Sure doesn't look like almost twice the training to me Sure doesn't, largely because you forgot to add the things that actually take time when you cross-train. The difference is a few days, which is very little compared to the month you describe, which comes from having to learn new weapons, new tanks, new ewar GÇö the basic ship skills are a very small part of the cross-training slog. So let's fix that list: Frigs IV + Cruiser IV + BS IV + Small Guns + Medium Guns + Large Guns + Tank + EWar ~-áFrigs IV + Dessy IV + Cruiser IV + BC IV + BS IV + Small Guns + Medium Guns + Large Guns + Tank + EWar. A far cry from twice the training time. You retrain your tank and ewar skills everytime you crosstrain somehow?
Quote:As pointed out, this change adds unnecessary crap that most people don't need and would never train for. GǪwhile removing a whole lot more unnecessary crap that people don't want to train for and which sits in the way of people specialising earlier. With those silly prereqs out of the way, you can get further faster.[/quote]If youa re crosstraining, you already have the support skills to specialize.
Quote:Do you know how hard it can be to get people to crosstrain as it is with just a few simple skills? It will be much harder if we have to say 'Train everything minmatar so you can fly this one ship required by the alliance' than it is now to say 'grab frigs, cruisers, and BS, plus a couple gun skills' Since all it is is two more skills that are done away with in very short order (and one of which is very popular for personal use), any added difficulty rather suggest a problem with your leadershipGǪ[/quote] Its a mechanics problem. Doctrine Fleets will always follow a FOTM pattern. When CFC switched from drakefleet to alphafleet, people screamed and yelled over it. When you don't use fleet doctrine, first enemy to come along who does kills you.
And I must ask, which skill is popular for personal use? BC? Because as it stand people usually use their normal races BC(I love myrms) or the hurricane they picked up training for alphafleet. If you mean Dessie, I know VERY few people who use any dessie other than the thrasher, and most of them trained dessie just so they could fly dictor.
I know they are used alot in low/highsec gangs, but thats hardly the type of player I am thinking about. I am thinking of the thousands of nullsec grunts who have to deal with this every time ships are rebalanced. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
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