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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 22 post(s) |
Xyrcaryn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
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Posted - 2012.03.07 13:53:00 -
[1171] - Quote
Dafuq?? I fly 3 race BCs on one character and 2 races on another, and got battlecruisers 5 on both, making it awesome. Now I'll have to re-train several months of skills to do same? |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
293
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 13:54:00 -
[1172] - Quote
Bluespot85 wrote: They intorduce ships that ruin 0.0 warfare, now they want to make those same ships more accessable.
13 days more accessible, by a newbie.
you save 30 days for racial BS5. you have to spend more for racial Destroyer 4, and racial BC 4 FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
293
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Posted - 2012.03.07 13:54:00 -
[1173] - Quote
Xyrcaryn wrote:Dafuq?? I fly 3 race BCs on one character and 2 races on another, and got battlecruisers 5 on both, making it awesome. Now I'll have to re-train several months of skills to do same?
Go back to the first post. Read the details on the third link. profit. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Lord Fargo
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.03.07 13:55:00 -
[1174] - Quote
Gibbo3771 wrote:oh fuking great.
I have minnie cruiser and gallente cruiser 5, bc 5 and destroyer 5. Obviously not including I will lose use of tornado or talos, my carrier/dreads...complete fukin joke.
I fly the astarte, the sleipner, all of the dictors.
So basically your are going to reimburse BC 5 skillpoints and then I have to choose one of them.
get fuked, shower of ****.
Heres an idea, fix bots, fix FW, nerf the drake, fix drones, make missions less boring, make 0.0 less *****, fix ecm and ecm drones, actually finish WiS, nerf titans, nerf supercarriers, fix the eagle, fix the eos, fix info links, nerf off grid t3's, fix blops jump range/fuel usage.
FIX **** THAT MATTERS
You sound mad bro?you're not mad are you? keep up the tears
Great idea CCP, me and my fellow goon breden approve of this idea :unsmith: |
WhiteCoatBloke
Lazy Twats Inc
0
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Posted - 2012.03.07 13:55:00 -
[1175] - Quote
Caldari Marauder - Gallente Marauder - Amarr Marauder - Minmitar Marauder :- are these racial shiptypes to look forward to as well. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
293
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Posted - 2012.03.07 13:58:00 -
[1176] - Quote
WhiteCoatBloke wrote:Caldari Marauder - Gallente Marauder - Amarr Marauder - Minmitar Marauder :- are these racial shiptypes to look forward to as well.
Nope. Those are T2 ships, modifications of T1 BSs, so covered by the racial skill + t2 skill.
BCs aren't a T2 ship type, which modify existing hulls. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
371
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Posted - 2012.03.07 13:58:00 -
[1177] - Quote
58 pages in less than 24 hours
If this has taught anyone anything, it's that spaceships matter
Questions Would you be balancing things like EWar, active tanking and command bonuses at the same time? Or will you be keeping the deficiencies in those systems in mind whilst rebalancing
Are the drone boats really becoming hit and run boats
How will the implementation of this go through? Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Mike Whiite
Progressive State
30
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:00:00 -
[1178] - Quote
Thums up CCP.
Probably not the most populair decision you have ever made, but when you step back and not look at your own character but at EvE as a whole it's good decision.
It will take me longer to fly certain ships but it will open many new oppertunities and challenges.
one question:
Quote:Bombardment ships: provide heavy fire support to pin the enemy down with constant barrage of ordnance. Have great damage and range, average defense and mobility. Can be compared to artillery. EVE examples: Raven, Drake, caracal.
Does this mean all missile combat platforms end up being "bombardment ships" or will they get their own versions of combat and attack vessles?
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Terrorfrodo
Deep Space Darwinian Law Enforcement Agency
20
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:01:00 -
[1179] - Quote
Gempei wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote:For example, a player that joins the game five weeks before the change can train BC to V once and will get the four new skills maxed out for free. A player who joins five weeks later gets nothing and has to train the four new skills the hard way. Thus the newer player will have millions of SPs less even though he is just a few weeks younger. That's pretty rough. And your solution? On one side bigger skill barrier for new player, on other side 10 000 angry (advanced/veterans) players - what is your choice? Well everyone hates newbies anyway, so **** 'em
But seriously, angering existing players would do more harm than changing the game for potential new players... they will just accept the new reality because they don't know any other. It's easier to deny someone something they never had than taking away stuff people already had.
That said, it's still a serious problem. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5424
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:01:00 -
[1180] - Quote
Bluespot85 wrote:So let me get this right, they remove learning skills to help new players, then there going to increase training for new players. One is not like the other.
They removed learning skills because all they did was (more or less) force new players to train skills that had zero effect on what they could do in the game at the very beginning of their characters' lives GÇö they were just a pointless meta-mechanic.
They are splitting up and rearranging the BC and dessie skills to balance them out against the other ship hull skills, and it actually reduces the training required for new players in most cases. It does indeed add a few days once you start to cross-train and if you go for the mid-range ships, but at that point, you are no longer a new player and the additions will be so small as to not really matter on the scale of things. Even in the few cases where it increases the training time, you're training for things that actually make a difference in-game: you unlock new ships; your ships get better; you unlock new skills GÇö it's not just a pointless meta-mechanic.
This change significantly improves things for new players at the cost of slightly inconveniencing middle-aged ones, leaving old players completely unaffected. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
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Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
40
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:05:00 -
[1181] - Quote
stupid forum |
Bluespot85
Bricktop's
2
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:10:00 -
[1182] - Quote
WhiteCoatBloke wrote:Caldari Marauder - Gallente Marauder - Amarr Marauder - Minmitar Marauder :- are these racial shiptypes to look forward to as well.
They say that they wont now, just like they did when they introduced the original gunnery skills, but once people have trained them they will introduce more skills just like they did with gunnerymissiles/drones/ewar.
Its to soften the blow and get all the fanbois on side first you see, then they will introduce amarr hac, recon, mauraders, blops skills at a later date. |
Shepard Book
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
16
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:18:00 -
[1183] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:The skill requirement changes for destroyers and battlecruisers is very tricky to tackle indeed. We fully acknowledge having to re-train for ships you can already fly is not appealing at all. As said in the blog, nothing is set in stone yet, we are considering various reimbursement options as this is still quite a high level change. EDIT SO PEOPLE CAN SEE IT:
- New destroyer and battlecruiser skills would be same rank than existing ones
- We have a "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now" philosophy, that means properly reimbursing/giving skills not to leave people stranded in ships they could fly before the change. Again, nothing is fixed yet.
MOAR STUFF HERE FOLKS (skills, confusing picture, apology to CSM).
So, question. Does this mean we will be grandfathered in if we can already fly a ship? I like many pilots have cross trained for many ships with my mains. It is not going to be pretty if yall don't grandfather in pilots with skill point reimbursements. |
S'Ryel
Sant Brieg Corp
1
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:23:00 -
[1184] - Quote
In my world it is called "dumbing down" or "streamlining". I don't like it, specially when it comes to skills. Why in hell do you have to start messing again with things that are perfectly working, can't you just focus yes F O C U S on broken content/stability/upgrade engine ? |
Ogogov
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
8
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:25:00 -
[1185] - Quote
If this finally gets the Hyperion fixed (and the mega, and most of the cruisers..), I'm all for it. I'm also hoping some of the more nonsensical support skills (Energy Grid Upgrades V for marauders, I'm looking at YOU) that just seem to pad out training time get relaxed or dropped also. |
Creat Posudol
Destined for Greatness Inc.
47
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:26:00 -
[1186] - Quote
Knug LiDi wrote:Despite the howling wind about SP and BC 5, for me the single most important thing I saw in the blog was the image showing t1 (tech one) ships in the centre at the bottom with navy the pirate ships showing increasing improvement. T2 on the right showing increasing specialization and t3 on the left showing increasing flexibility
BUT OF CRITICAL IMPORTANCE was T2 being higher in "improvement" than T3
T2 ships are optimized for a single role - a T3 ship, being more flexible can do many things, and all those things better than t1 and possibly Navy ships. But they are not supposed to be "improved" enough to do T2 roles better than T2 ships
T2 logistic ships should be better than T3 ships in that role (repping)
T2 field command ships should be better than T3 ships in this role (brawling)
T2 fleet command ships should be better than T3 ships in that role (boosting)
A cov ops (scanner not stealth bomber) should be a better probing/scanning ship than a T3
Similarly for other T2 roles.
I look forward to seeing the changes that bring T3 ships below T2 ships, for that specific t2 role.
While I agree that in some cases the T3s performance is a bit out of whack with the rest of the ships, I don't agree that they should perform worse than a specialized T2 for that role. I can understand where you're coming from, and in some special cases I agree (repping for example, maybe fleet boosting as well). As a whole they SHOULD be better even though they are quite flexible for many reasons:
- they cost 5 times what most T2 variants of the same size cost (let alone the comparison to a scanning frig!).
- You lose skill points if you die in them.
- Even if you use the flexibility they provide (switching subsystems), changing from one role to another still requires an investment of about as much as that fixed-role T2 ship costs.
Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should a T3 be worse at scanning compared to a CovOps. Currently T3s are the only ships in the game you can take on a lowsec or nullsec scanning trip where you don't need an additional combat ship to clear the damn stage first. |
Rommiee
Mercury Inc. Death Rhubarb
10
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:27:00 -
[1187] - Quote
2 things...
CCP Soundwave wrote:
No one is saying you have to retrain them. Our principle for the reimbursement here will be "if you could fly it yesterday, you can still fly it today". Ytterbium will post the further details of this once it's written up.
1. I currently have Battlecruisers 5 and can fly BCGÇÖs of all races.
The quote above mentions that I will still be able to fly all Battlecruisers, but it does not mention at which level. Will my current SPGÇÖs in this skill be converted to, say level 3 of all races ? I could still fly them, but at a greatly reduced efficiency. That is not an acceptable solution.
If this is going to be done, we should not be penalised as to the level of performance we can fly these ships at.
2. It should take time to be able to fly Capital ships. This game has been dumbed down enough over the last year or two, and removing the Battleship 5 requirement from this skill will just be another step down that road. It should not happen. |
Saulc Neslo
0utbreak Outbreak.
4
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:28:00 -
[1188] - Quote
This is a really bad change if it makes noobs have to train even more skills.
Its annoying to pvp against ppl with bad skills, please get rid of a some skills instead of introducing new ones.
Tier system changes? Tbh idk, but as a general rule i preferr diversity over balance any day. |
The Gonif
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:30:00 -
[1189] - Quote
A lot of people have posted concerns about skill point inflation. The argument typically goes something like this:
Evanga wrote: I thought that was too good to be true:
BC V = 1.5m sp Dessie V = 0.5 m sp
All Racial BC V & Dessie V == 8 m sp... a 6 m sp boost is an assload of sp to just "give out". That's about 4 Months of free SP's....
I'm sorry, even as a vet, I just don't think we deserve that type of boost.
I guess whether or not this is a valid concern will depend on exactly how CCP will be making sure that "if you could fly it yesterday, you will be able to fly it tomorrow"
If CCP accomplishes this goal by giving you the skills, then there should be no "inflation" (though your total SP count would go up). So if people who had Dessie V woke up the morning after patch day and found that they had Amarr Destroyer V, Caldari Destroyer V, Gallente Destroyer V, and Minmatar Destroyer V, they would have been made whole, their total SP would be higher (by 2M SP according to the quoted post) but that's all.
On the other hand, if CCP made you whole by reimbursing SP the effects would be different. In this scenario the morning after patch day the pilot in question would wake up with each racial destroyer skill at 0 but with 2M SP available for reallocation. Now the pilot might spend the points by allocating 500K to each of the racial dessies and end up exactly where he was (capability wise) as scenario 1. However, the pilot could choose to allocate 500K to only one racial dessie class while using the remaining 1.5M SP on some other skill that he did not previously have.
This second scenario does lead to SP inflation as there is an opportunity for arbitrage. You could train dessie V now in the expectaton that post patch you would turn 500K SP into 2M SP that could be moved to any other skill.
I guess this is just one of the many details CCP will tell us "later". This would be ok, I guess, if the player base had any confidence that CCP is thinking through these kinds of issues. Unfortunately for CCP the tone of the responses makes clear that the player base does not trust CCPs ability to fully understand the consequences of its own actions. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5424
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 14:35:00 -
[1190] - Quote
S'Ryel wrote:In my world it is called "dumbing down" or "streamlining". How is it GÇ£dumbing downGÇ¥ when they're making your decisions matter more; whey they open up for more clever planning; when they give you more choices to pick between?
Quote:Why in hell do you have to start messing again with things that are perfectly working, can't you just focus yes F O C U S on broken content/stability/upgrade engine ? They're focusing on the broken content that the ship progression represents and the many useless ships it leaves in its wake.
Saulc Neslo wrote:This is a really bad change if it makes noobs have to train even more skills. No. It will in fact let them do more with fewer skills and less skill points. They are doing exactly what you're asking them to: removing unnecessary skills from ships that have no need for those skills. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
293
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:39:00 -
[1191] - Quote
Rommiee wrote:2 things... CCP Soundwave wrote:
No one is saying you have to retrain them. Our principle for the reimbursement here will be "if you could fly it yesterday, you can still fly it today". Ytterbium will post the further details of this once it's written up.
1. I currently have Battlecruisers 5 and can fly BCGÇÖs of all races. The quote above mentions that I will still be able to fly all Battlecruisers, but it does not mention at which level. Will my current SPGÇÖs in this skill be converted to, say level 3 of all races ? I could still fly them, but at a greatly reduced efficiency. That is not an acceptable solution. If this is going to be done, we should not be penalised as to the level of performance we can fly these ships at. 2. It should take time to be able to fly Capital ships. This game has been dumbed down enough over the last year or two, and removing the Battleship 5 requirement from this skill will just be another step down that road. It should not happen.
2 things:
1:Go look at the first post. click on the third link in it. read. Have your questions answered. 2: 13 days quicker. (due to the addition of the racial BC and racial destroyer on the way to battleships.) Just 13 days. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
40
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:39:00 -
[1192] - Quote
Morwen Lagann wrote:I understand the sentiment of wanting to streamline the skill trees, but if you're going to remove the generic Destroyers and Battlecruisers skills, for those of us who have trained both of them to 5, if we don't get *all four* of the racial skills reimbursed all the way to 5, you are going to have a very, very large and angry mob on your hands. I understand the feeling, but you shouldn't confuse getting in a ship and actually using the ship.
For example, I have BC5, but with my weapon skills I can only use Gallente and Caldari BC efficiently. I wouldn't know what to do with Amarr BC5 or Minmatar BC5.
So, maybe tie the racial skills attribution to, I don't know, the certificates required to properly fly them ? That means you don't get the racial skill command if you can't use the adequate racial weapon.
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Gempei
Siberian Khatru. Shadow Operations.
32
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:40:00 -
[1193] - Quote
Saulc Neslo wrote:... if it makes noobs have to train even more skills. Noobs dont train battlecruiser on lvl 5. Rank 6 lvl4 bc skill is only 4 days.
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Inepsa1987
Critical Mass Inc.
5
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:42:00 -
[1194] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Caterpillar wrote:Please forgive me if my interpretation of the proposed removal of generic skills is incorrect, but it might also be that everyone else, who appears to be focussing just on BC and destroyers, is missing something. It doesn't look like they will GÇ£racialiseGÇ¥ the role skills you mention GÇö they will work just like now, and in order to fly any given T2 ship, you have to have the hull skill (frigate, dessie, cruiser, whatever) at lvl V and then the role skill (HAC, Recon, Logi, Interceptor) at lvl I+. So your general recon skill will not be split up; it will still work almost exactly the same way it does now, except it will no longer require CovOps to train. Since you already have the racial cruiser skill for the recon ships you want to fly, and since you already have the Recon skill, everything will be exactly the same as before. Inepsa1987 wrote:Could you please elaborate on the artificial barrier dictating ship attributes within the same class? What is it? How does removing whatever it is help re balance ships? Right now, there is this strange rule where higher tier (= higher sklll requirement) dictates that the ship will be stronger, have more slots and fitting space, be more expensive, and generally just be GÇ£betterGÇ¥. The most glaring example of this is the old tier-1 vs. tier-2 BC problem: the tier-2s are better than the tier-1s in pretty much every way for no particular reason. They want to move away from this and instead assign each ship of a specific class to a particular role, and let the role determine what kind of abilities it gets. So a cruiser that only requires Cruiser I will no longer forcibly be weaker than a different cruiser that requires Cruiser III just because tier-1 is less than tier-3. Instead, if that first (previously tier-1) cruiser is in the GÇ£brick tankGÇ¥ role, it will be a hellalot sturdier than the second (previously tier-3) cruiser, even though the latter has a higher skill requirement because that second cruiser actually fulfils some newly invented GÇ£assaultGÇ¥ role that is built around speed and firepower instead of pure tank. To continue the battlecruiser example: the new tier-3 BCs are not simply GÇ£betterGÇ¥ than the tier-1s and tier-2s GÇö instead, they simply fill a different role: massive firesupport for fast-moving fleets. This role does not include massive tanks and it is implemented in such a way that they are quite vulnerable to small ships, so even though they are higher-tier than the old BCs, they are not universally better than them.
Thanks. Cleared it up for me. This move really makes a lot of sense. As long as the BC skills work out properly ill be happy. Being able to fly every races bc is important for a lot of people. Spaceship Pilot. |
Hotaru Yamato
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
24
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:42:00 -
[1195] - Quote
This idea has my full support. It doesn't mean much compared to this threadnaught though. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
275
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:42:00 -
[1196] - Quote
Specialization ftw. Make BC V only one racial BC V!
Also, this thread has changed my perception of an average Eve player's cognitive capacity.
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dasuri
Bad Company DBD Initiative Mercenaries
1
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:43:00 -
[1197] - Quote
Best Solution I can think of, leave the Battlecruiser and Destroyer skills as combined skills; if you want consistency, make these combined skill prerequisites (for Battleships and Cruisers, respectively). So the skill tree looks like this:
Racial Frig IV ---> Destroyer IV ----> Racial Cruiser IV ----> Battlecruiser IV ----> Racial Battleship IV
For those who skipped the Battlecruiser and/or destroyer skills, give them the skills to level IV. For those who have them trained, give them 363K free skill points. Leave Racial Cruiser IV (and consequently Racial Frigate IV) as prerequisites for Racial Command Ships.
This is more reasonable than 6M sp free. (I have started training BC V on all my alts. :-)) |
Kirkra
The In-Humane Society Shadow Theory.
0
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:44:00 -
[1198] - Quote
I fully agree to removing ship tiers, however, as already been noted, reducing the requirements for capital ships is not the way to go. Even if you add a bit time back on with support skills needed to compensate, this means that cross-training capitals becomes something unbelievably easy - to switch from Archon to Thanatos you would only require 10 days at most (Gallente BS 4 and MAYBE Capital Shield Transfer if you think you'll need it), same thing for almost all dreadnoughts. This leads to the situation where if you can fly one capital decently, you can fly them all, which is IMHO absolutely stupid. Also, since you're doing skills and balance anyway - why has it happened that T3 vessels have skill prerequisites that are in many cases less than those of T2 cruisers? Especially since T3 can operate as a combat ship better than any T2 cruiser and sometimes better than a CS. Even though there is an argument of their cost, it still seems strange that in most cases you would only want to train into a "specialized" T2 ship for a reduced cost compared to T3. |
Swearte Widfarend
Mortis Noir.
50
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:44:00 -
[1199] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: BS skill at IV for capitals: alright, there is good feedback on that. Point is to make the progression consistent by requiring a skill at 4 to train for the next, higher size class, and 5 for tech 2 ships. If we feel it becomes suddenly too easy to train for capitals, we can always compensate by adding that time back on one of the other, support skill prerequisites for them. Same reasoning applies for freighters. The point of this blog is to specifically discuss such matters before moving forward with them, and for this, you are welcome.
But there's a difference here you aren't accounting for.
You aren't training Amarr Battleship V then beginning Amarr Carrier I to hop into a carrier.
You are training Battleship V, and Capital Ships III, and Advanced Spaceship Command V. You are training Jump Drive Operation. You are training Capital Module skills.
racial Battleship is the last skill in the sub capital skill tree. At that point, you are moving to a new category of ships, not just the next class of ship. You can be different, because it is different. You don't need to make it consistent with the model in sub capital training, because it's not a linear progression anymore, and it shouldn't be. CCP is changing ship skill trees. How ship skills should be |
Hatt0ri Hanz0
State War Academy Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:46:00 -
[1200] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Evanga wrote:"Destroyer and Battlecruiser reimbursement: it has been said before, but allow us to repeat again, that we do not want to cut ships you could already fly. Thus, having BC skill at 5 would mean you get all four variations at 5"
Quoted for thruth, too late CCP. I thought that was too good to be true: BC V = 1.5m sp Dessie V = 0.5 m sp All Racial BC V & Dessie V == 8 m sp... a 6 m sp boost is an assload of sp to just "give out". That's about 4 Months of free SP's.... I'm sorry, even as a vet, I just don't think we deserve that type of boost. Reimburse the BC V and Dessie V sp, Lower the prereqs for Dictors and CS's to LvL IV, and then give us all racials at LvL IV. We can train LvL V for the races we desire, and we can apply sp how we want. Then, let us know that in 6 months from the change, the pre-reqs for CS's and Dictors will be increased to LvL V's.... People will have time to sell or blow up their current ships, time to train up as they desire, and it doesn't cause some huge in-game balance.
Except CCP has stated that T2 ships will require lvl 5 for its main ship prereq, which in this case is battlecruisers. And frankly, I don't think that getting all the racial BC at 5 because you can fly all the racial command ships is all that bad. CCP has chosen to make a pretty large change, they should be prepared for having to hand out some free sp, if they want to do it so badly. |
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