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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 22 post(s) |
Creat Posudol
Destined for Greatness Inc.
47
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Posted - 2012.03.12 15:38:00 -
[1771] - Quote
S McKellop wrote:Tippia wrote:S McKellop wrote:So on this day. I will get out of bed. Log into Eve. I will find that I cannot fly a BC, BS, Carrier, Dread, or Super. GǪand you've come to this conclusion, how, exactly? Because it says in plain english that you need ___racial____ Battlecruiser to L4 before you can train __racial___ battleship. Racial BS is a requirement for capitals. that is all Can you fly them now?
if yes: you will be able to fly them afterwards
if no: why on earth would you be able to fly them afterwards if you can't do so now?
for more explanation: read the first post and it's links. It's not hard. This is almost page 90. You didn't expect someone official to have clarified some stuff by now? Seriously... READ!
Edit: just to be clear, the part you are complaining about is explained in the devblog! Go read that again as well, this time pay attention... |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5433
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 15:50:00 -
[1772] - Quote
S McKellop wrote:Tippia wrote:S McKellop wrote:So on this day. I will get out of bed. Log into Eve. I will find that I cannot fly a BC, BS, Carrier, Dread, or Super. GǪand you've come to this conclusion, how, exactly? Because it says in plain english that you need ___racial____ Battlecruiser to L4 before you can train __racial___ battleship. Racial BS is a requirement for capitals. that is all GǪto train them, yes. Do you need them to fly the ships in question? No. Do you already have the skills required to fly the ships in question? Yes. So can you fly the ships? Yes.
This change doesn't affect what you can and cannot fly (except for the BCs, but they're going to give you the skills required to fly what you already can fly, so that's a non-issue) GÇö it changes what you can train, and you don't need to train anything.
So no, you will get out of bed, log into EVE, find that you can fly BS, Carrier, Dread or Super regardless of what your skills in BCs or Destroyers are, just like now, and you will find that you can fly BCs and Destroyers just as well as before as well.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
72
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Posted - 2012.03.12 15:52:00 -
[1773] - Quote
Katy Ling wrote:S CCP Ytterbium wrote: ... lowering the Covetor's Mining Barge requirement from 5 to 4 ...
that sounds like a very wise chance, as for years, players have looked how ridiculous it looked, to have such a small training time difference betwin the Covetor and the T2 Hulk how about Astrogeology down from 5 to 4 too ? This way the minning barges retriever and covetor would get too close.
Also the first mining barge is useless compared to the retriever. so you guys could reduce the requirements for it, i mean, you could remove the Industry 5 prerequisite from the mining barges skill and place it as a secondary or tertiary requirement for the mining barges. this would ballance things.
Proposal:
Procurer: ( 3d 12h - from- 8d 8h) Mining Barge:1 Astrogeology:3 Science:4 Minning:4 Industry: 3 (Down from 5, about 5 days reduction in training for this ship, making it useful for starters to use.)
Retriever: (11d 16h) Mining Barges:3 Astrogeology:4 Science:4 Minning:4 Industry: 5
Covetor: ( 29d 18h -from- 49d 6h) Mining Barges:4 ( Down from 5, making it an option before hulk) Astrogeology:5 Science:4 Minning:4 Industry: 5
Skiff: (50d 4h) Mackinaw: (50d 4h) Hulk: (51d 1h) |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
293
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 15:59:00 -
[1774] - Quote
Main reason a Procurer isn't used.
Most people have trained up Racial Cruiser. And use their mining cruiser till they get a Retriever. After all, it provides a better yield, while allowing for a little defense against rats.
Procurer is pretty much a useless boat. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
67
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 18:27:00 -
[1775] - Quote
Pallidum Treponema wrote:For a new player:
Drake: 3 skills (current scheme) vs 4 skills (new scheme) - 33% increase in skills. +Hurricane: 5 skills vs 8 skills - 60% increase in skills required. +Harbringer: 7 skills vs 12 skills - 71% increase in skills required. +Myrmidon: 9 skills vs 16 skills - 78% increase in skills required!
Effectively, you're almost doubling the amount of skills a new player will have to train in order to crosstrain.
Additionally, you're removing one of the big incentives for crosstraining, namely if I train up two skills, I get access to a whole new range of ships for free! Training racial frigate and cruiser, two skills that can be trained in a short amount of time, would give a new player access to battlecruiser at whatever level they had battlecruisers trained to before.
Under this scheme, crosstraining for another race instead becomes a chore.
This is inherently new player UNFRIENDLY, as well as being excessively annoying for veteran players.
Seems to me like that more newer players will make training decisions that they find themselves regretting.
I understand the simplifiying of tiers to help you balance ships.
I don't really understand why forcing racial battlecruiser skills simplifies anything.
Why must that be done ?.. its just going to make it harder for newer players to decide they want to fly different ships after 6 months of training .. at a fairly important point in their game commitment.
Also, aren't there already bonuses from getting cruiser v in a race ? when flyining that races BC ? it isn't entirely irrelevant now, and on top of that, there is already speicialized training incentives for types of weapons etc.
I'm not really getting why it needs to be changed.
Just becaues it makes it more consistant doesn't make it better.
How about get rid of battlecruiser skills all together and make it take cruiser V to fly a BC ? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1225
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 18:33:00 -
[1776] - Quote
Diomedes Calypso wrote:Pallidum Treponema wrote:For a new player:
Drake: 3 skills (current scheme) vs 4 skills (new scheme) - 33% increase in skills. +Hurricane: 5 skills vs 8 skills - 60% increase in skills required. +Harbringer: 7 skills vs 12 skills - 71% increase in skills required. +Myrmidon: 9 skills vs 16 skills - 78% increase in skills required!
Effectively, you're almost doubling the amount of skills a new player will have to train in order to crosstrain.
Additionally, you're removing one of the big incentives for crosstraining, namely if I train up two skills, I get access to a whole new range of ships for free! Training racial frigate and cruiser, two skills that can be trained in a short amount of time, would give a new player access to battlecruiser at whatever level they had battlecruisers trained to before.
Under this scheme, crosstraining for another race instead becomes a chore.
This is inherently new player UNFRIENDLY, as well as being excessively annoying for veteran players. Seems to me like that more newer players will make training decisions that they find themselves regretting. I understand the simplifiying of tiers to help you balance ships. I don't really understand why forcing racial battlecruiser skills simplifies anything. Why must that be done ?.. its just going to make it harder for newer players to decide they want to fly different ships after 6 months of training .. at a fairly important point in their game commitment. Also, aren't there already bonuses from getting cruiser v in a race ? when flyining that races BC ? it isn't entirely irrelevant now, and on top of that, there is already speicialized training incentives for types of weapons etc. I'm not really getting why it needs to be changed. Just becaues it makes it more consistant doesn't make it better. How about get rid of battlecruiser skills all together and make it take cruiser V to fly a BC ?
Focused training, wise skill planning, tree = pretty
FOTM chasing, cross training, poor planning, fire = bad When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5441
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 18:37:00 -
[1777] - Quote
Diomedes Calypso wrote:I understand the simplifiying of tiers to help you balance ships.
I don't really understand why forcing racial battlecruiser skills simplifies anything. They're not simplifying the tiers GÇö they're removing them because they impose pointless restrictions on what the ships can do.
The racial BC/destroyer skills are not so much about simplifying things as about making them consistent (which, granted, is a simplification of sorts too). The simplification effort lies more in the T2 role skills and ensuring that you don't need a bunch of largely unrelated other-sized role skills to get into a ship you want.
Quote:Also, aren't there already bonuses from getting cruiser v in a race ? when flyining that races BC ? No.
Quote:How about get rid of battlecruiser skills all together and make it take cruiser V to fly a BC ? That would do the exact opposite of what they want. One of the reasons they splitting the BC skill is that it unlocks too much. Shifting it to Cruiser V just creates both the old problem and the new one that people are complaining about: one skill unlocks too much, and it also takes ages to train.
Requiring Cruiser V for BCs is even less newbie- and cross-training-friendly than having racial destroyer and cruiser prereqs. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Old Religion
The Paganism Council The Paganism Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:19:00 -
[1778] - Quote
This is a load o F**king s**t yet again your p***ing all over the older pilots making it easyer for the new one's |
Maplefox
Black-Watch Corporation
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:38:00 -
[1779] - Quote
Yeah, okay this kinda looks stupid - sorry to say that some of the things like AUR were obnoxious, as was nerfing some of the ships but that's whatever - that happens all the time. Speaking for myself, and hopefully others - this is probably the stupidest and most destructive idea that could be implemented into EVE, thousands of capsuleers are happy what they are flying at the moment - Canes, Harbingers, Prophecies, whatever. I see no logical explanation for this notion of changing how skills work. People have worked for years to get where they were - we don't need CCP to f*ck sh!t up for them, for us.
We play your game, we pay for it, I doubt anyone in game asked for this to be considered. There should be a friggen vote whether or not capsuleers feel this would be benefitial or not because I see no reason to change something that has been working for over 7 years?
I hope CCP reads these comments because honestly - bleh there's no way to explain how I feel about this. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
8
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:52:00 -
[1780] - Quote
Fact: CCP reads this thread more closely than 90% of you people read the devblog + much related CCP replies. |
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Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
8
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:55:00 -
[1781] - Quote
Maplefox wrote: The whole issue about changing battle cruiser skills into seperate ones is gonna cause a lot of stress for those of us who already own and fly Canes, Harbingers, Prophecies, whatever.
If you get all racial skills to V if you have BC V, how is this going to cause any stress?
Maplefox wrote:I see no logical explanation for this notion of changing how skills work. People have worked for years to get where they were - we don't need CCP to f*ck sh!t up for them, for us. We worked for our fits and our skills - why in god's toilet must you take it all away. Where is it stated that anything will be taken away from you? If you get all racial skills to V if you have BC V, how is this going to f*ck sh!t up? |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
8
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:57:00 -
[1782] - Quote
Old Religion wrote:This is a load o F**king s**t yet again your p***ing all over the older pilots making it easyer for the new one's Older pilots with BC V will get Racial BC V. Free SP for older players, more training for new players. Please elaborate on your reasons for rage. |
Maplefox
Black-Watch Corporation
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:57:00 -
[1783] - Quote
they would take away battlecruiser skills from you and give you points to allocate it to a specific race of battlecruiser; Amarr BC, Caldari BC, Minmitar BC, Gallente BC.. etc. and not everyone has BC V ~ |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
8
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:04:00 -
[1784] - Quote
Maplefox wrote:they would take away battlecruiser skills from you and give you points to allocate it to a specific race of battlecruiser; Amarr BC, Caldari BC, Minmitar BC, Gallente BC.. etc. and not everyone has BC V ~ I think it has only been said a few hundred times or so, but I'll repeat. "If you could fly it yesterday, you can fly it tomorrow"
And where did you read a CCP statement that they will reimburse SP and let you allocate to only one race? Please quote. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
77
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:07:00 -
[1785] - Quote
Maplefox wrote:they would take away battlecruiser skills from you and give you points to allocate it to a specific race of battlecruiser; Amarr BC, Caldari BC, Minmitar BC, Gallente BC.. etc. and not everyone has BC V ~ Before requesting CCP read and consider your opinions please do them the favor of reading the replies they've already made regarding skill point compensation and take the time to understand what they have proposed. |
Temmu Guerra
Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
40
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:49:00 -
[1786] - Quote
Well glad to see that 70 some odd pages later people are still not reading...
CCP just go ahead and make another dev blog so everyone can stop the panic and absolute hissy fits. |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
72
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 21:08:00 -
[1787] - Quote
Reaching 90 pages?! Treadnought FTW!!!
Go ahead CCP! Bring the changes!!!! Start with the rokie ships! If noone complain about the tier removal and skills reimbursement than you can DO it with the rest!!!! LOL |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1226
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 21:23:00 -
[1788] - Quote
Temmu Guerra wrote:Well glad to see that 70 some odd pages later people are still not reading...
CCP just go ahead and make another dev blog so everyone can stop the panic and absolute hissy fits.
If they did people would...
A: Not bother reading it either.
B: Not understand what they read, or alternatively try to twist it to the worst possible what if scenario possible.
When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
13
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 21:28:00 -
[1789] - Quote
It would be cool if CCP had graphs of what skills are being trained. I would love to see the BC spike on that graph :3 I must admit, I am training BC V atm. I just figured wth; gonna have to train it some day, might as well do it now.
Can't be arsed to train up for Amarr BC tho. Gallente/Minmatar will do |
stoicfaux
776
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 00:25:00 -
[1790] - Quote
In regards to the newbies getting 'forced' into a potential path ship skill path, in theory, the ship rebalancing, aka tiers2roles, should, if done right, make "every" ship in a faction lineup worth flying thus minimizing the "need" to cross-train.
On the downside, the potential benefit wouldn't be appreciated if CCP takes forever to re-balance the ships, or if CCP screws it up.
On a side note, since newbies will be "forced" into a faction skill-tree, there should be a training bonus if they join the faction militia (i.e. participate in FW.)
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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YuuKnow
151
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 00:58:00 -
[1791] - Quote
Please don't make capital ships a level 4 skill.
A stepwise increase in the requirement is more logical.
Frigate level 3 leads to Destroyers Destroy level 3 leads to Cuisers Cruiser level 4 leads to Battlecruisers Battlecruisers level 4 leads to Battleships Battleships level 5 leads to Capitals ships Capital Ships level 5 leads to Titans (plus lots of level 5 ancillary skills).
More logical and keeps capitals from being so common. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
89
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 08:09:00 -
[1792] - Quote
If they raised the rank of advanced spaceship command to 11 would it stop all of your whining? |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
13
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 08:52:00 -
[1793] - Quote
Sigras wrote:If they raised the rank of advanced spaceship command to 11 would it stop all of your whining? inb4 shitstorm |
Crellion
Parental Control HELL4S
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 10:21:00 -
[1794] - Quote
Hello friendly Devs,
How nice all those shiny excel sheets and diagrams and whatitsnames. I am overjoyed!
Can I please add my punny little input:
1) If you somehow manage to make all unused ships useful with this, without in the process making those that are used today useless or nerfed down to do only half of what they can do today I will wuv you long time. I am a sceptic for now but will give you the benefit of a doubt.
2) Because this is heavily impacting on combat balance and no one wants a doe eyed college graduate making decisions that look nice on coloured diagram paper alone please make a rule that the dev team needs to include at least one person with say 3k+ kills and 500+ solo kill on battle clinic and that this person would need to sign for the final go ahead on the changes.
If you did this I would not even be half miffed about who it would be... it would definately reign in at least 50% of the madness potential this has...
Good luck and all the best,
King Regards,
Crellion
|
Alfred Mahan
Task Force 42
6
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 11:35:00 -
[1795] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote:Katy Ling wrote:S CCP Ytterbium wrote: ... lowering the Covetor's Mining Barge requirement from 5 to 4 ...
that sounds like a very wise chance, as for years, players have looked how ridiculous it looked, to have such a small training time difference betwin the Covetor and the T2 Hulk how about Astrogeology down from 5 to 4 too ? This way the minning barges retriever and covetor would get too close. Also the first mining barge is useless compared to the retriever. so you guys could reduce the requirements for it, i mean, you could remove the Industry 5 prerequisite from the mining barges skill and place it as a secondary or tertiary requirement for the mining barges. this would ballance things. Proposal: Procurer: ( 3d 12h - from- 8d 8h) Mining Barge:1 Astrogeology:3 Science:4 Minning:4 Industry: 3 (Down from 5, about 5 days reduction in training for this ship, making it useful for starters to use.) Retriever: (11d 16h) Mining Barges:3 Astrogeology:4 Science:4 Minning:4 Industry: 5 Covetor: ( 29d 18h -from- 49d 6h) Mining Barges:4 ( Down from 5, making it an option before hulk) Astrogeology:5 Science:4 Minning:4 Industry: 5 Skiff: (50d 4h) Mackinaw: (50d 4h) Hulk: (51d 1h)
Good suggestion. We also need the mining drone bonus to Gallente and Amarr T1 Cruisers beefed up, so they don't have to mine in T1 Frigs while training Retriever (Procurer with above implemented) Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM. Vote Here: http://community.eveonline.com/council/voting/CandidatesView.asp |
i hatechosingnames
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
17
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Posted - 2012.03.13 15:23:00 -
[1796] - Quote
If when this goes live we could potentially be logged off in hostile space, the added skill points in the racial destroyer / battle cruiser skills could then put us over our current clone skill point limit.
Should we get podded before we make it back to friendly station to upgrade our clone will we get reimbursed for any lost skill points if this giving us free skill points ends up losing us skill points? Or perhaps a free clone upgrade to the next grade for anyone you add skill points to? |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
89
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 17:12:00 -
[1797] - Quote
^^ this is the first legitimate problem I have heard with the plan to just give everyone the SP for the additional skills; however, this should not be a problem if they give you 1+ week of lead time which should be enough for even the deepest WH corp to get all of it's members into more advanced clones. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
15
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 18:33:00 -
[1798] - Quote
I guess they will just bump you up a clone class if that happens. Would be pretty ****** if you went a few mill over and died because of location. On the other hand, now u have the chance to just bump it up yourself. Would be pretty stupid not to do it, if you know what is gonna happen.
I'll wait for a CCP response on this though. As we know (we know this RIGHT?!) they are thinking hard about how to do this, so I don't think they will leave this question unanswered. |
Soldarius
United Highsec Front The 99 Percent
179
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 23:57:00 -
[1799] - Quote
I've already commented once. But what the hey. I'll do it again.
If you already have BCs trained, but only trained the racial cruiser skills to 3, you are a failboat.
First the difference in SP is about 1 day of training per race per level. This will only improve your performance in cruisers. So HTFU.
The secondary (perhaps primary by CCP's reckoning) effcet, will be to have folks in cruisers longer, thus perhaps generating more use and interest in those already vastly under-utilized hulls.
Most people (imo) only train cruiser 5 to get into recons or logistics because the BCs seem so much better. But a lot of the T1 cruisers are actually quite viable in pvp. We won't talk about the pirate faction cruisers (cough*Cynabal*cough).
tl;dr: train+fly more cruisers. You might actually enjoy it. "How do you kill that which has no life?" |
Seraphiel Cherubim
Sub Par.
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 00:03:00 -
[1800] - Quote
Say if these changes go through, Marauders are the only ship that require Battleship V? I also agree with all those who posted before me - battleship V should be a requirement for Capitals. it make sense... after all if you can't fly a 1.5km long battleship perfectly, who says you're ready to jump into a carrier or dreadnought.
Also since majority of ships are having their skill requirement lowered from V to IV on prerequisites only to have the destroyer skill brought up instead - isn't that counter intuitive? Personally I have only put one point ever in Destroyers since they are only good in the beginning for level 2 missions and of course later for salvaging until you get the noctis.
Quote:Example: # Before, training for a Harbinger required you to train for Amarr Frigate 4, Amarr Cruiser 3 and Battlecruisers at 2 # Before, training for an Absolution required you to train for Amarr Frigate 4, Amarr Cruiser 5, Battlecruiser at 5 and Heavy Assault Ships at 4 # Now, training for a Harbinger requires you to train for Amarr Frigate 4, Amarr Destroyer 4, Amarr Cruiser 4 and then Amarr Battlecruiser at 1. # Now, training for an Absolution requires you to train for Amarr Frigate 4, Amarr Destroyer 4, Amarr Cruiser 4 and Amarr Battlecruiser at 5. There is no more need for the Amarr Cruiser 5 and Heavy Assault Ship at 4.
IMO please don't make it so we have to train up destroyers higher since they aren't that useful. If there were more hulls per say and they each had more uses... then maybe i'd be for it. As for the racial skills all together... have the dev's considered vets who have cross trained? Even if they would grandfather them into their characters race and give them X million SP, who says the players has to put them into those skills? Also with granting SP to players i hope the devs really ask the community more before going through with this change, since once those SP are out they cannot be taken back. |
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