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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Liam Mirren
316
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Posted - 2012.03.07 09:47:00 -
[121] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪalso, I can't help noticing (and laughing at) how many people in the feedback thread seem to have completely forgotten about these things called GÇ£support skillsGÇ¥ and GÇ£secondary prerequisitesGÇ¥. The last five pages (at the time of reading) are full of GÇ£onoz, new players have to train for 4+ù as long as vets! unfair!GÇ¥, never mind that the bulk of the training time is not in the ship skills but inGǪ wellGǪ everything else, and that some of that GÇ£everything elseGÇ¥ is actually being removed.
Eg, removing the redundant prereqs (such as spaceship command appearing multiple times all over the place) on the trusty old Nighthawk we have the following prereq list:
Caldari Cruiser V (+ù5) -á-á-á-á-áCaldari Frigate IV (+ù2) Command Ships I (+ù8) -á-á-á-á-áBattlecruisers V (+ù6) -á-á-á-á-áWarfare Link Specialist IV (+ù6) -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áLeadership V (+ù1) -á-á-á-á-áSpaceship Command V (+ù1) Heavy Assault Ship IV (+ù6) -á-á-á-á-áAssault Ships IV (+ù4) -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áEngineering V (+ù1) -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áMechanic V (+ù1) -á-á-á-á-áWeapon Upgrades V (+ù2) -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áGunnery II (+ù1)
Under the new scheme, the [racial] battlecruisers skill will replace the [racial] cruiser skill, and you will have to train four of them (rank 6 skills, ogosh) to get all field CSes GÇö onoz! Or is itGǪ? What will the new prereq tree look like?
Caldari Battlecruiser V (+ù6) -á-á-á-á-áCaldari Cruiser IV (+ù5) -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áCaldari Frigate IV (+ù2) Command Ships I (+ù6) -á-á-á-á-áWarfare Link Specialist IV (+ù6) -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áLeadership V (+ù1) -á-á-á-á-áSpaceship Command V (+ù1)
GǪand that's it. The key part of the prereq shuffle that seems to be overlooked by many is the removal of those cross-tier prerequisites GÇö HACs no longer nead assault frigates; CSes no longer need HACs and Logi. So the poor newbie who now has to to train four battlecruiser skills instead of one, (that's 3 rank-6 skills or 4.6M SP) also doesn't have to train four cruiser skills to V (saving 3.3M SP by just taking them to lvl IV), and doesn't have to train HACs IV, AS IV, Engy V, Mech V, WU V (saving another 1.9M SP). All in all, those chunks cut out saves the new player 5,661,360 SP that he doesn't have to train compared to the current system, in exchange for having to train an additional 4,608,000 SP to get all four battlecruiser skills. It's been a while since I took a maths class, but I don't recall ever seeing GÇ£one million lessGÇ¥ be the same as GÇ£four times moreGÇ¥.
And that's just for the field command ship side GÇö never mind what happens if we include the fleet command bit and have to include all the Logi skills. The buff to the old adage of GÇ£specialise to catch up fasterGÇ¥ is quite significantGǪ
Exactly, as I stated earlier: less idiotic and more logical.
From an RP pov I hope we can turn down getting the racial Destroyer/BC skills so we don't end up with all 4 trained. I know this sounds dumb but this char only flies Caldari, on purpose, and having non-Caldari skills on my list makes it look wrong in my eyes. As I see it one should only get the replacement racial skill if you have the prereq for it, ie racial cruiser 3 for BCs. I know it's anal nitpicking, but still. Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
Sevena Black
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2012.03.07 10:09:00 -
[122] - Quote
Adding racials to generic skills makes sense if you look at them as a bigger class of ship. I never did to be honest. The way I see it both destroyers and battlecruisers are specialized ships based on frigates and cruisers. Their slot layout and basic advantage (more firepower) seemed to support that. Then again, they are in fact bigger so....
I do believe this is dumbing down EVE tho. Not for the reasons already mentioned. If things get implemeted the way they're suggesting it now, CCP will decide how to use a certain hull by defining its slots, bonusses etc. I understand that's already largely the case, but this seems to be a bit uncreative. I also think it will increase the problem of useless hulls. The more defined its roles are, the bigger the chance that role is not really desirable / optimal. Which will lead to an unused hull.
I always liked the fact that t1 is a general ship, t2 is a specialty and t3 were flexible. More t3 would make me very happy. |
RaTTuS
BIG Gentlemen's Agreement
178
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Posted - 2012.03.07 10:10:00 -
[123] - Quote
I would still have the Capital tree needing BS 5 but apart from that .... Meh - makes sense http://eveboard.com/ub/419190933-134.png
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Oggat
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2012.03.07 10:15:00 -
[124] - Quote
Noobs in Command ships. What could possibly go wrong? |
Bubanni
SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353
127
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Posted - 2012.03.07 10:26:00 -
[125] - Quote
These upcomming changes will be brilliant! it will make the game so much more rich! you guys should realize that... sure it sucks if you want to fly all 4 races of battlecruisers with only training that one skill, but really it should aways have been a racial skill like the cruisers and frigs.. but that is honestly the smallest change!!!
TIERICIDE IS COMMING!!! and this is much welcomed, we are talking about more tech 1 ships becoming more useful, instead of having the artificial bounderies installed on them (less ehp, less slots) just because they are suppose to be a lower tier than the frig/cruiser above it... |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1759
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 10:27:00 -
[126] - Quote
Dumb and pointless. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5293
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 10:29:00 -
[127] - Quote
Oggat wrote:Noobs in Command ships. What could possibly go wrong? Does GÇ£robbing them blind by emptying their wallets in a single blowGÇ¥ count as wrong?
Anyone who wants to fly a CS as an actual command ship will no longer be a newbieGǪ (but then again, n00b and newbie are quite different things). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1358
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Posted - 2012.03.07 10:33:00 -
[128] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:The dumbing-down of EVE marches on.
Its interesting that any meaningless change is considered as dumbing-down..
Not sure what pro-elite skill one needs to set-up and skill-queue, but.. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5293
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Posted - 2012.03.07 10:53:00 -
[129] - Quote
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:Its interesting that any meaningless change is considered as dumbing-down.. Nah. The interesting thing is how any change where the smart player can get ahead faster, better, with less effort than the dumb one, and where the dumb ones can't figure out how to make bank from it before it even comes out is classified as dumbing-down.
It's the EVE version of Dunning-Kruger, in a wayGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
485
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Posted - 2012.03.07 10:58:00 -
[130] - Quote
Been looking at this change and something popped out to me
Currently its this when you skill.
Racial Cruiser 1 -> Assault Ship -> Heavy Assault Ship
Then you only need
Racial Cruiser 2 -> Unlocked HAC Racial Cruiser 3 -> Unlocked HAC Racial Cruiser 4 -> Unlocked HAC
And you have the next racial HAC
What I am wondering though...
Racial Cruiser 1 -> Racial 1 Assault Ship-> Racial 1 Heavy Assault Ship Racial Cruiser 1 -> Racial 2 Assault Ship-> Racial 2 Heavy Assault Ship Racial Cruiser 1 -> Racial 3 Assault Ship-> Racial 3 Heavy Assault Ship Racial Cruiser 1 -> Racial 4 Assault Ship-> Racial 3 Heavy Assault Ship
They are not going to add individual Racial T2 skill books ? Cause that would lengthen my training as my plan was already set to get smaller ships out of the way this year and if T2 skll books don't carry over requiring more skill training for individual Racial Heavy Assault Ship to 5 x4...I am out, just don't care anymore cause my plans got changed which I had already set in motion a couple of months ago. |
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Cannibal Kane
Brotherhood of KANE
265
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Posted - 2012.03.07 11:04:00 -
[131] - Quote
I know this might seems like a borked idea or somebody might have said it before.
If they are intent on splitting the BC skill... why not reset, refund all players total SP so they can refocus their skills training. This way people like me with BC lvl5 don't gain extra SP by getting all the Racial BC skills and the people who don't have BC lvl 5 can then refocus their skills for their racial preference. Everybody start on equal footing barring the amount of SP they have accumulated.
Hell I know for a fact I would be the happiest bloke if I got that chance. I'm not a Pirate, I'm a Terrorist. |
Aine Ni
Some Really Meaningless Name
13
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Posted - 2012.03.07 11:06:00 -
[132] - Quote
Racial frigate 1 -> Racial destroyer 1 -> Racial cruiser 1 -> Assault Ship -> Heavy Assault Ship Racial frigate 2 -> Racial destroyer 2 -> Racial cruiser 2 -> Unlocked Assault Ship -> Unlocked Heavy Assault Ship Racial frigate 3 -> Racial destroyer 3 -> Racial cruiser 3 -> Unlocked Assault Ship -> Unlocked Heavy Assault Ship Racial frigate 4 -> Racial destroyer 4 -> Racial cruiser 4 -> Unlocked Assault Ship -> Unlocked Heavy Assault Ship
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5296
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Posted - 2012.03.07 11:17:00 -
[133] - Quote
Aqriue wrote:They are not going to add individual Racial T2 skill books ? Doesn't seem like it. Instead, by the sound of it, they'll refine all T2 ships to follow the same pattern: [racial hull size skill] V + [role skill] I GǪand those role skills will no longer require any other ship skills GÇö they'll just be a bunch of skills that are germane to the role.
Previously, for the HACs in your example we had:
[racial] Cruiser V -á-á-á-á[racial] Frigate IV Heavy Assault Ship I -á-á-á-áAssault Ships IV -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áEngineering V -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áMechanic V -á-á-á-áWeapon Upgrades V -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áGunnery II -á-á-á-áSpaceship Command V
Now, it will (most likely) be:
[racial] Cruiser V -á-á-á-á[racial] Destroyer IV -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á[racial] Frigate IV Heavy Assault Ship I -á-á-á-áWeapon Upgrades V -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áGunner II -á-á-á-áSpaceship Command V
So sure, when you want the other HACs, you have to train those frigate, destroyer, and cruiser skills for the new race (and the weapons, tank and other equipment to go with them, of course), but you no longer have to go for those Assault Frigates, and with that skill no longer in your queue, you can start asking yourself if you even want to bother with Frigates V (after all, since you no longer need the AF skill, you won't GÇ£wasteGÇ¥ it if you don't also max out Frigates).
It goes from being -á-á-á-á-áRacial frigate 1 GåÆ AF & Racial Cruiser 1 GåÆ HAC GåÆ Unlocks ships 1a, 1b. -á-á-á-á-áRacial frigate 2 GåÆ Racial Cruiser 2 GåÆ Unlocks ships 2a, 2b. to -á-á-á-á-áRacial frigate 1 GåÆ Racial Destroyer 1 GåÆ Racial Cruiser 1 GåÆ HAC GåÆ Unlocks ships 1a, 1b -á-á-á-á-áRacial frigate 2 GåÆ Racial Destroyer 2 GåÆ Racial Cruiser 2 GåÆ Unlocks ships 2a, 2b GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Cannibal Kane
Brotherhood of KANE
265
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 11:22:00 -
[134] - Quote
That means I need to stop my training for lvl 5 GayCruiser and get my lvl 5 Destroyer done just incase.
I am one of those that started my training with all frigs to lvl 5 and then cruisers with all support skills to lvl 5.
Extensive cross training, very little BS skills right now.
Like I said previously, I don't mind the refocus, I would prefer a complete reset of my SP so I can refocus my SP if that was the case. I'm not a Pirate, I'm a Terrorist. |
knobber Jobbler
Seniors Clan Get Off My Lawn
49
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Posted - 2012.03.07 11:25:00 -
[135] - Quote
Cannibal Kane wrote:I know this might seems like a borked idea or somebody might have said it before.
If they are intent on splitting the BC skill and specializing the racial ships more... why not reset, refund all players total SP so they can refocus their skills training. This way people like me with BC lvl5 don't gain extra SP by getting all the Racial BC skills and the people who don't have BC lvl 5 can then refocus their skills for their racial preference. Everybody start on equal footing barring the amount of SP they have accumulated.
Hell I know for a fact I would be the happiest bloke if I got that chance.
In principle why not, but in practice, many people would use it to get fotm ships and refine those mistakes they made way back when.
It would also mean some guys could respec and get into a titan right away and we don't need that! |
Cannibal Kane
Brotherhood of KANE
266
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 11:28:00 -
[136] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:Cannibal Kane wrote:I know this might seems like a borked idea or somebody might have said it before.
If they are intent on splitting the BC skill and specializing the racial ships more... why not reset, refund all players total SP so they can refocus their skills training. This way people like me with BC lvl5 don't gain extra SP by getting all the Racial BC skills and the people who don't have BC lvl 5 can then refocus their skills for their racial preference. Everybody start on equal footing barring the amount of SP they have accumulated.
Hell I know for a fact I would be the happiest bloke if I got that chance. In principle why not, but in practice, many people would use it to get fotm ships and refine those mistakes they made way back when. It would also mean some guys could respec and get into a titan right away and we don't need that!
I did not consider that, only have 25mil SP myself so not sure if that would be enough for Titan not that I have the isk or care for one anyway.
I'm not a Pirate, I'm a Terrorist. |
Mersault
Blue Nine Industries
68
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Posted - 2012.03.07 11:33:00 -
[137] - Quote
Lazy bitter vet checking in o7
I don't care some of the pre-reqs for ships I now fly have been dropped that I had to train. *shrug* This does make it easier for new people to access specific T2 ships they want to fly. This is a good thing imho.
Really looking forward to the removal of the tier system and seeing some interesting new load outs on rarely used Tech 1 ships.
As for what to do with skills, my solution would be if you have every race at 5 you still have every race at 5, if you have two races at 4 you still have two races at 4 etc
If you never trained dessie and fly cruisers, you magically get the dessie 4 skill for your race or races of cruisers.
Simples. |
Keen Fallsword
Billionaires Club BLACK-MARK
33
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Posted - 2012.03.07 11:39:00 -
[138] - Quote
FIX ships first.
Cant imagine that im in Gallente or amarr BC ONLY !!
My options are:
Brutix and Myrmidon - pathethic
or
Harbringer or Prophecy - pathetic
Yeah ... I will be great addition to any fleet .... pfffffff
Its useless. Now we are almost only flying in Minmatar or Caldari. Non capacitor shooting weapons systems FTW. And shield based coz shield is also FTW :)
Guys think about ships. CCP is doing this coz want MORE OF YOUR TIME (more euros and dollars) with minimal effort on Their side. pfffffffffffff |
knobber Jobbler
Seniors Clan Get Off My Lawn
49
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Posted - 2012.03.07 12:47:00 -
[139] - Quote
Keen Fallsword wrote:FIX ships first.
Cant imagine that im in Gallente or amarr BC ONLY !!
My options are:
Brutix and Myrmidon - pathethic
or
Harbringer or Prophecy - pathetic
Yeah ... I will be great addition to any fleet .... pfffffff
Its useless. Now we are almost only flying in Minmatar or Caldari. Non capacitor shooting weapons systems FTW. And shield based coz shield is also FTW :)
Guys think about ships. CCP is doing this coz want MORE OF YOUR TIME (more euros and dollars) with minimal effort on Their side. pfffffffffffff
AHHH PANIC!!!
Take a deep breath and read what CCP said. If you can fly it now, you can fly it after any change. While its not a much needed change, if its taking the time of a couple of designers to balance it up and is good for the long term health of the game then its probably good to do it now.
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Wacktopia
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
202
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:47:00 -
[140] - Quote
There will be much tears over this change. I keep looking at the charts, tilting my head on the side, and try to work out if it will actually be better or not.
Removal of tiers; yeah probably a good idea. Messing with Skill progression; smells like SWG Vote Alekseyev Karrde for CSM7. -áhttp://community.eveonline.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=433 Get War Decs, Sov, Low Sec that works.-á |
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3387
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:50:00 -
[141] - Quote
On a side note the module naming font had victories.
1 We are keeping heavy assault missile and launchers! 2 we got the truama missile renamed to scourge missiles 3 module metanaming back on the drawing board.
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Valentyn3
Deep Core Mining Inc.
92
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:56:00 -
[142] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:On a side note the module naming font had victories.
1 We are keeping heavy assault missile and launchers! 2 we got the truama missile renamed to scourge missiles 3 module metanaming back on the drawing board.
Damn, now my battle cry of "Welcome to the Trauma ward!" will have that much less sting. Still good news though EVE why u no obey Newtonian Physics? Sure wish I could fit med artillery on my frigate to. http://i.imgur.com/PUZou.jpg
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Ager Agemo
X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence
43
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Posted - 2012.03.07 14:57:00 -
[143] - Quote
Actually making capitals easier to fly by just 31 days is not such a big deal, also now you would hve to train battlecruiser to fly capitals too, so it sort of compensates.
if a lot of players suddenly can fly carriers and dreads it would be awesome because there would be a lot of players flying fail fit capitals doing stuff like soloing and such, more capitals to shoot at and kill. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
837
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 15:19:00 -
[144] - Quote
Wth guys? -this is awesome
Many things in Eve are there since the beginning like tiers system and dmg formulas etc, those need overhauls that are inevitable if you like Eve and you want it to do another 10 years. Time to stop dressing like the king that was your gran grandpa idol if you're 20 Yo, move on, go forward, evolve!
By setting new standards that will aloud a much better rebalance if needed in the future, more ships will/can be add easily and this changes will not only make more ships interesting to use but also for dev's a whole new opportunity horizon to implements new ship roles and classes.
Look at all these new features/old features revamp that are far more friendly or easier to use, it's awesome. Now scrubs with the good old rabble "I liked like it was in my time.... I don't want it to change" fair well, find a cave and go live there all winter we/me will not miss you.
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Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
172
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Posted - 2012.03.07 16:21:00 -
[145] - Quote
Seems to be 8 pages of anti-rage for rage that isn't there. In other circles that would be called brown nosing. Having said that, I got BC 5 from Learning skills I no longer have, so... whatever?
- You still need Racial Cruiser 5 for Tengu and Tengu blobs made CS obselete anyway. - Aggro mechanics change made interdictions a cloak and camp weapon. - Super Cap blobs made Capitals a suicide meat wall.
It's still a question of Zerg and who can throw down the bigger zerg. I love CS, they tank like a beast but even I know if they make CS the ship everyone fields, people will just bring bigger blobs to break tanks or as in the case of super cap blobs, nobody will fight. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5320
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 16:23:00 -
[146] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Seems to be 8 pages of anti-rage for rage that isn't there. It's there. It's just that, for the first time in ages, the rage seems to largely be contained where it should be contained: in the actual feedback thread. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3387
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Posted - 2012.03.07 16:31:00 -
[147] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Seems to be 8 pages of anti-rage for rage that isn't there. In other circles that would be called brown nosing. Having said that, I got BC 5 from Learning skills I no longer have, so... whatever?
- You still need Racial Cruiser 5 for Tengu and Tengu blobs made CS obselete anyway. - Aggro mechanics change made interdictions a cloak and camp weapon. - Super Cap blobs made Capitals a suicide meat wall.
It's still a question of Zerg and who can throw down the bigger zerg. I love CS, they tank like a beast but even I know if they make CS the ship everyone fields, people will just bring bigger blobs to break tanks or as in the case of super cap blobs, nobody will fight.
My velator blobs made your titans obsolete.
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Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
172
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Posted - 2012.03.07 16:40:00 -
[148] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Skydell wrote:Seems to be 8 pages of anti-rage for rage that isn't there. In other circles that would be called brown nosing. Having said that, I got BC 5 from Learning skills I no longer have, so... whatever?
- You still need Racial Cruiser 5 for Tengu and Tengu blobs made CS obselete anyway. - Aggro mechanics change made interdictions a cloak and camp weapon. - Super Cap blobs made Capitals a suicide meat wall.
It's still a question of Zerg and who can throw down the bigger zerg. I love CS, they tank like a beast but even I know if they make CS the ship everyone fields, people will just bring bigger blobs to break tanks or as in the case of super cap blobs, nobody will fight. My velator blobs made your titans obsolete.
You are closer to the truth than you know. It has been done in the past. Blobbing a system out with Velators and 300K Industrials to lagg down super cap fleets. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
839
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 16:42:00 -
[149] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Skydell wrote:Seems to be 8 pages of anti-rage for rage that isn't there. In other circles that would be called brown nosing. Having said that, I got BC 5 from Learning skills I no longer have, so... whatever?
- You still need Racial Cruiser 5 for Tengu and Tengu blobs made CS obselete anyway. - Aggro mechanics change made interdictions a cloak and camp weapon. - Super Cap blobs made Capitals a suicide meat wall.
It's still a question of Zerg and who can throw down the bigger zerg. I love CS, they tank like a beast but even I know if they make CS the ship everyone fields, people will just bring bigger blobs to break tanks or as in the case of super cap blobs, nobody will fight. My velator blobs made your titans obsolete.
[tount) Fake. A rue titan pilot with links would pulverise your velator orbiting his guns at 1km and max speed.
Try again [/tount] |
Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
164
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Posted - 2012.03.07 18:25:00 -
[150] - Quote
From what I'm reading, HAC skills may change from this:
[racial] Cruiser V -á-á-á-á[racial] Frigate IV Heavy Assault Ship I -á-á-á-áAssault Ships IV -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áEngineering V -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áMechanic V -á-á-á-áWeapon Upgrades V -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áGunnery II -á-á-á-áSpaceship Command V
To this:
[racial] Cruiser V Heavy Assault Ship I -á-á-á-áWeapon Upgrades V -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áGunner II -á-á-á-áSpaceship Command V
I don't need Battlecruiser trained at all to fly battleships at the moment. If they add the requirement for Battlecruiser IV to all battleships, either they have to give everyone with Battleship I Battlecruiser IV or remove the lower tiers as a requirement for a ship.
Prerequisites can be gated on injection alone, so I should still be able to train up the Battleship skills without having Battlecruiser or Destroyer. |
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