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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.05.22 08:39:00 -
[1]
Create a new decrypter which creates a bpo. Even if it's -25me -50pe.
The decrypter needs to be an extremely rare one found only in -.8 to -1 trusec
This will counter balance the existing bpos which are 100me and are making super cheap products and defeating the purpose of invention.
Counter point other ideas: Reintroduce lottery: No alts just spam it and there's nothing that needs to be done to earn those. Make the current bpos; bpcs: yaay more nerf from ccp. Make the current bpos me0 and not researchable: *My other idea* still nerf. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
xena zena
Catalyst Corporation Dominatus Phasmatis
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Posted - 2008.05.22 08:40:00 -
[2]
How about no.
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Thunderbird Anthares
Crimson Star Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.22 08:45:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Thunderbird Anthares on 22/05/2008 08:45:26 sure,and blow the market stability to smithereens think about it for a moment,its like fishing with hydrogen bombs or killing flies with a laser cannon ------------------------------------------------ When you get to the end of your journey,everything that really matters is the journey itself. |
xena zena
Catalyst Corporation Dominatus Phasmatis
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Posted - 2008.05.22 08:49:00 -
[4]
It's just easier to say "no"
small words come across better.
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Thunderbird Anthares
Crimson Star Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.22 09:15:00 -
[5]
i just like the laser cannon analogy ------------------------------------------------ When you get to the end of your journey,everything that really matters is the journey itself. |
xena zena
Catalyst Corporation Dominatus Phasmatis
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Posted - 2008.05.22 09:17:00 -
[6]
i envision a spartan laser... talk about overkill. :D
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El'Niaga
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.05.22 09:24:00 -
[7]
Just remove the t2 BPOs, and then prices should rise within 90 days to support invention.
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.05.22 09:25:00 -
[8]
First Xena... there are rules in the forum which disallows you to just say no. You have to give constructive criticism.
Quote: sure,and blow the market stability to smithereens
How would this blow the market stability? The decrypters would be very very rare meaning billions. Giving the balance right there at minimum. The heavy negative effect on me and pe would balance. The bpo would need significant researching to make it viable to even be used. It would be months and months before those who have these current bpos would even be competing with any of these.
Really the problem is that these current bpos are making super cheap products without the cost of any invention. Invention cant compete with that at all. Meaning ccp will be pressured to do something. Which history proves that making those blueprints simply bpcs with 1000runs. I dont think those who have the bpos will be happy with that.
Quote: think about it for a moment,its like fishing with hydrogen bombs
Everyone will be capable of making these bpos. You even have a chance of failing obviously. So these very expensive decrypters would be melting away. Thusly the BPOs would be quite expensive. Thusly pretty rare to occur. BUT enough to allow people to spend the isk to compete with these people who are sitting pretty. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.05.22 09:27:00 -
[9]
Originally by: El'Niaga Just remove the t2 BPOs, and then prices should rise within 90 days to support invention.
My point is to allow people to compete AND not nerf the t2 bpos. Which would **** off people significantly. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
xena zena
Catalyst Corporation Dominatus Phasmatis
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Posted - 2008.05.22 09:30:00 -
[10]
ok let me expand it, it's a bad idea because of
1. the current bpos are not vastly more profitable, your limited by the amount you can produce off the single bpo, an inventor can invent multiple copies and produce from them at once, allowing far higher volume production, ergo higher profits.
2. CCP has stated before they will *NEVER* be more t2+ bpos introduced in-game, EVER.
3. CCP has stated the lottery will NEVER EVER come back.
4. CCP has tossed around the idea, but it's VERY unlikely they would, of removing the old BPOS, because of reason (1) stated above.
But because your suggestion has ABSOLUTELY ZERO CHANCE of ever being implemented, a simple "no" was my initial reaction.
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Thunderbird Anthares
Crimson Star Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.22 09:32:00 -
[11]
crap you beat me to the answer |
xena zena
Catalyst Corporation Dominatus Phasmatis
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Posted - 2008.05.22 09:32:00 -
[12]
Originally by: El'Niaga Just remove the t2 BPOs, and then prices should rise within 90 days to support invention.
Do you think T2 BPO's are what makes the price of T2 products low-cost? LOL.
The near infinite supply of bpc's from invention has driven T2 costs to nearly production costs already. Any perceived tiny advantage the old bpos give is easily outstripped by the volume that can be produced via invention. BPOS account for a VASTLY TINY percent of the production volume of T2 now, so low volume I doubt it has any measurable affect on price. |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.05.22 09:50:00 -
[13]
Quote: 1. the current bpos are not vastly more profitable, your limited by the amount you can produce off the single bpo, an inventor can invent multiple copies and produce from them at once, allowing far higher volume production, ergo higher profits.
So time of making the bpcs, time of doing the invention, Radar site running, increased chance of having completed downtime?
These are all apparently not counted?
You are counting one end and that's it.
Quote: 2. CCP has stated before they will *NEVER* be more t2+ bpos introduced in-game, EVER.
Very interesting. I havent seen this. Thusly it means that the current T2 bpos will have to be made bpcs. How sad.
Quote: 3. CCP has stated the lottery will NEVER EVER come back.
Yes well I can just point to my first post.
Quote: 4. CCP has tossed around the idea, but it's VERY unlikely they would, of removing the old BPOS, because of reason (1) stated above.
Oh ya? You have the internal knowledge of this?
Quote: But because your suggestion has ABSOLUTELY ZERO CHANCE of ever being implemented, a simple "no" was my initial reaction.
As far as you think. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Thunderbird Anthares
Crimson Star Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.22 09:53:00 -
[14]
Jason,im afraid that what are we discussing here is quite common knowledge,and no real secret. ------------------------------------------------ When you get to the end of your journey,everything that really matters is the journey itself. |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.05.22 09:57:00 -
[15]
Originally by: xena zena
Originally by: El'Niaga Just remove the t2 BPOs, and then prices should rise within 90 days to support invention.
Do you think T2 BPO's are what makes the price of T2 products low-cost? LOL.
The near infinite supply of bpc's from invention has driven T2 costs to nearly production costs already. Any perceived tiny advantage the old bpos give is easily outstripped by the volume that can be produced via invention. BPOS account for a VASTLY TINY percent of the production volume of T2 now, so low volume I doubt it has any measurable affect on price.
There's a big waste on the invention bpcs. Certainly not perfect ME. This is a big cost. Then add in the costs of invention plus invention failing costs.
That's some costs right there well above cost of the products. The availability of the marauders and such proves this.
There are many more bpos around then you think. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
El'Niaga
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.05.22 10:10:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Originally by: El'Niaga Just remove the t2 BPOs, and then prices should rise within 90 days to support invention.
My point is to allow people to compete AND not nerf the t2 bpos. Which would **** off people significantly.
I could care less about ****ing them off and so should the devs. Do you really believe the 'lottery' was as random as they led you to believe?
This has been a black eye long enough and CCP should grow some and fix it.
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El'Niaga
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.05.22 10:13:00 -
[17]
Originally by: xena zena
Originally by: El'Niaga Just remove the t2 BPOs, and then prices should rise within 90 days to support invention.
Do you think T2 BPO's are what makes the price of T2 products low-cost? LOL.
The near infinite supply of bpc's from invention has driven T2 costs to nearly production costs already. Any perceived tiny advantage the old bpos give is easily outstripped by the volume that can be produced via invention. BPOS account for a VASTLY TINY percent of the production volume of T2 now, so low volume I doubt it has any measurable affect on price.
Apparently you've never done invention.
I'll give you one example. Assuming you got a BPC every time you invented on a Rifter BPC then you are looking at the cost being about 2 million more to invent and build the Hound than its worth. (As we all know you don't succeed 100% of the time...more like 50%).
There are also t2 bpo owners who have admitted to pricing their goods such that they know the invention people can't compete.
Open the field up and give all those industrialist something to really do. I bet half of player slots in research POSs sit empty because its not practical.
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.05.22 10:17:00 -
[18]
Originally by: El'Niaga
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Originally by: El'Niaga Just remove the t2 BPOs, and then prices should rise within 90 days to support invention.
My point is to allow people to compete AND not nerf the t2 bpos. Which would **** off people significantly.
I could care less about ****ing them off and so should the devs. Do you really believe the 'lottery' was as random as they led you to believe?
This has been a black eye long enough and CCP should grow some and fix it.
Conspiracy theory mmmmmm
Well considering I know people who made 9+ alts just to sit on research alts of all kinds to get in on the lottery. Who did indeed get bpos. All transfered to the main. Who wasnt even really using them much. I believe he brought only 1 to 0.0 and used it. Did BoB get some special BPOs of their own? Well I remember a guy 1 year ago coming out and revealing that was happening and CCP just banned him to shut him up. I dont recall what actually happened from that. Bob obviously has been beaten down since then. |
El'Niaga
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.05.22 10:21:00 -
[19]
It's a proven fact that you could manipulate the system and I seriously doubt that t20 was the only dev that manipulated the system, and I think that's why he wasn't fired. They didn't want folks to know the full extent.
I'm not saying everyone got their's this way or even a majority but enough got help to shift the balance back in the day. |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.05.22 10:21:00 -
[20]
Originally by: El'Niaga
Apparently you've never done invention.
I'll give you one example. Assuming you got a BPC every time you invented on a Rifter BPC then you are looking at the cost being about 2 million more to invent and build the Hound than its worth. (As we all know you don't succeed 100% of the time...more like 50%).
There are also t2 bpo owners who have admitted to pricing their goods such that they know the invention people can't compete.
Open the field up and give all those industrialist something to really do. I bet half of player slots in research POSs sit empty because its not practical.
half? Jeeese there's widely open. Invention slots arent even touched because you have to be the same corp as the tower owners to even use them.
This is the reason why many of the research alliances want to end the alliance fees and get the research slots to be made public. Including invention and everything. |
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Sir Substance
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Posted - 2008.05.22 11:08:00 -
[21]
you must understand jason, the people who own those T2 BPO's, some of them paid tens of billions for them. i fail to see why they shouldn't dominate the market. it might take hundreds, maybe thousands of t2 items before you make your money back on such an investment. |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.05.22 12:07:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sir Substance you must understand jason, the people who own those T2 BPO's, some of them paid tens of billions for them. i fail to see why they shouldn't dominate the market. it might take hundreds, maybe thousands of t2 items before you make your money back on such an investment.
I know! EXACTLY.
Which is why I suggest leaving them completely alone and simply create an invention method which will create bpos at great expense. Who can compete.
That way invention as it is... is the short term not competitive but capable of marking that place where the t2 bpo guys arent making 500% profit on each item. Where they cant complain about t2 bpos because they can technically make a t2 bpo of their own and research it like mad at great expense. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Velox Idolon
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Posted - 2008.05.22 13:27:00 -
[23]
costs lot to make new t2 BPOs you propose, who has the most money... oh, is it the people who hold the current t2 BPOs, I think it is, so therefore you will cause a greater imbalance rather than decreasing it.
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xena zena
Catalyst Corporation Dominatus Phasmatis
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Posted - 2008.05.22 16:59:00 -
[24]
holy crap you people are dumb.
Theres what, a handful, a tiny small insignifgant amount of BPOS out there. You all are blinded by jealous lunacy. How many BPOS you think there is? Some people pay'd 30-100+ billion for! You think they've paid them off and is just rakeing in cash when they can only produce a TINY MICROSCOPIC FRACTION of the total production volume.
And for "i've never seen these things before!" about CCP's comments about BPOS/Lottery only proves now much of a noob you are, if you was actually playing this game when the lottery was ending you would know that.
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procurement specialist
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Posted - 2008.05.22 17:32:00 -
[25]
the issue isn't that a single producer can make a single t2 bpc and produce from it faster than the guy with the bpo. the issues is that you can make dozens of them, thousands using all the available people on the servers, and then make far more than you could off of a single bpo. That is why invention is faster than a single bpo in these examples.
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xena zena
Catalyst Corporation Dominatus Phasmatis
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Posted - 2008.05.22 17:43:00 -
[26]
Originally by: procurement specialist the issue isn't that a single producer can make a single t2 bpc and produce from it faster than the guy with the bpo. the issues is that you can make dozens of them, thousands using all the available people on the servers, and then make far more than you could off of a single bpo. That is why invention is faster than a single bpo in these examples.
exactly and VASTLY more profitable in comparison. Sure you make more money per run on a BPO but you only got a finite amount of bpos. With infinite amount of invented bpcs, sure the per-run profit is less, but the volume you can produce out weighs that.
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.05.22 17:52:00 -
[27]
I think CCP should either do a dev blog or a sticky on this subject. Macroeconomics can be kinda counter intuitive sometimes so having some nice pretty graphs and well expressed explanations would be a good thing and could be linked to from threads like this.
The basics in this case are that in situations where demand outstrips BPOable supple, inventors set the price, not the BPO holders. While the BPO holders do make a higher profit per unit they make a lower total profit due to small volume.
BPO owners who think they are setting their prices lower then the inventors can handle in such situations are fooling themselves. In such situations traders (or other inventors) will simply buy up the undervalued BPO produced goods and put them back on the market at the appropriate cost. So the BPO owner does indeed get a quick sale they are actually not making as much as they could,.. and someone else just make a buck based off their miscaculation.
Now to the OP. While I personally rather like the idea of some way to produce BPOs, by making the item extremly rare you will simply make it available to the current wealthy and make life even worse for inventors. In addition, it would be a bit like a non-destroyable Titan... sure they are rare but over time more and more will come into the economy and they will eventually dominate the market,.. which will, in time, decimate the inventors.
The only way this would be doable is if the process was actually _fairly_ accessable so that even young inventors can start working twoards a BPO or two and treat the current invention system as mearly a stepping stone till they get established.
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procurement specialist
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Posted - 2008.05.22 18:27:00 -
[28]
t2 bpos are buyable from research agents at 12312678164716947671912374823 each. there you have a goal. see you next century
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Zirconium Blade
Ass Pounding Space Monkeys
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Posted - 2008.05.22 18:29:00 -
[29]
How about t2 bpo's and invention are both taken out of the game.
T2 prices spiral out of control and we all go back to t1 and named mods.
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.05.23 02:01:00 -
[30]
Quote: costs lot to make new t2 BPOs you propose, who has the most money... oh, is it the people who hold the current t2 BPOs, I think it is, so therefore you will cause a greater imbalance rather than decreasing it.
I've made a billion isk in the last week or 2. Yet I don't produce anything but the large hybrid ammo that I use basically.
So saying that only the current t2 bpo people have isk to do the job... that's crazy.
Quote: Theres what, a handful, a tiny small insignifgant amount of BPOS out there. You all are blinded by jealous lunacy. How many BPOS you think there is? Some people pay'd 30-100+ billion for! You think they've paid them off and is just rakeing in cash when they can only produce a TINY MICROSCOPIC FRACTION of the total production volume.
There is no "tiny small insignificant amount of t2 bpos"
They arent producing very little or else invention people who make the t2 stuff... wouldnt have to worry about losing profits.
Quote: And for "i've never seen these things before!" about CCP's comments about BPOS/Lottery only proves now much of a noob you are, if you was actually playing this game when the lottery was ending you would know that.
Kind of funny because I was researching during the lottery and I got nothing.
Quote: the issue isn't that a single producer can make a single t2 bpc and produce from it faster than the guy with the bpo. the issues is that you can make dozens of them, thousands using all the available people on the servers, and then make far more than you could off of a single bpo. That is why invention is faster than a single bpo in these examples.
Which is a false point because I've already pointed out the fact that if the volume simply wasnt there for the bpos... the invention people would have no problems. They would be making profits and wouldnt need to compete with the bpos. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
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