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Harla Branno
Imperium Galactica Omega Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.23 11:01:00 -
[1]
Please make station hugging *much* more difficult. There have been some improvements, but far from enough. Today if you undock with a well tanked battleship (do not even talk about capital ships - they are nearly invincible in a situation like this, some stations have HUGE docking range, and at any sign of bumping they dock immediately), you can gank and then dock in a minute.
Suggestion: Easy. Do not allow docking anyone having global criminal flag. |
Harla Branno
Imperium Galactica Omega Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.23 11:01:00 -
[2]
Please make station hugging *much* more difficult. There have been some improvements, but far from enough. Today if you undock with a well tanked battleship (do not even talk about capital ships - they are nearly invincible in a situation like this, some stations have HUGE docking range, and at any sign of bumping they dock immediately), you can gank and then dock in a minute.
Suggestion: Easy. Do not allow docking anyone having global criminal flag. |
Frecator Dementa
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Posted - 2008.05.23 11:55:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Frecator Dementa on 23/05/2008 11:58:21 not signed
not unless you give us the possibility to see what's outside undocking should not be an instant i-lose button
maaaybe if your ship is invulnerable 30 seconds after your computer finished loading the grid, not 30 seconds after you hit the button. sometimes it takes 40 seconds just to load the nightmare station camp outside, by which time you're already popped, podded and looted.
tl;dr - station camping should not be an automatic i-win for pirates, undocking should not be an automatic i-lose for 'victims' ----------------------- forum ate my post again |
Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information
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Posted - 2008.05.23 12:14:00 -
[4]
Is the issue with station hugging or with no mass calculation on bumping?
Ie. If mass is taken into account with bumping, then if you bump a cruiser with a battleship, the cruiser goes flying, but not the other way around.
As the previous poster mentioned, undock/camp need to be balanced. |
Dav Varan
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Posted - 2008.05.23 13:36:00 -
[5]
So you want to be safe in your bumping ship , high speed to make it back to station and no agression flag. while you opponent is decidedly fubared ?.
would support this only if bumping ( high spped rams )leads to aggression flagging and no dock up for the bumper. |
Harla Branno
Imperium Galactica Omega Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.23 14:18:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Harla Branno on 23/05/2008 14:18:56 Okay, I did not make a clear viewpoint, as I see. Here is a situation: someone undocks at a station in a Moros, releases sentry drones. He can gank anything (that is not a capital ship) he likes, then wait for a minute then dock. Nearly zero chance to kill him using current rules.
(edit: typo) |
Seetesh
Pixels Docks
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Posted - 2008.05.23 14:32:00 -
[7]
I think the current method is fine, a moros already takes a little time to lock you and are immune to targetting for a short while already.
I dont like the idea of people killing someone once they undock sorry i can give a thumbs up, i see your point but sorry .
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.23 15:13:00 -
[8]
I think there is an issue with station-hugging dock/undock games - certainly. But I can't support this proposal unless its re-worded for clarity and specific proposal.
For example:
"Currently there is a problem with the docking timer being abused by well-tanked battleships (and capitals) being able to engage in combat and then de-aggress and redock to avoid significant counter-attack. This problem was caused by general increase in ship hit points over several incremental patches designed to specifically to lengthen combat while there has been a failure to lengthen re-dock/jump aggression timers by a similar degree.
Outcome is that station dock range (stargate range) fighting is currently overpowered since in the environment of increased hit points for all ships it becomes too difficult to destroy targets in the limited aggression window. This encourages over-blobbing as the only way to inflict sufficient damage on the target before it docks and has the knock-on effect of discouraging any combat at all. Question will CCP development agree this is a problem? And will they commit to increasing dock/redock/gate aggression timers to be in line with general ship hit point buffs since CASTOR? Roughly this would involve lengthening timers to 2-3x their current value.
Additional related question can we have a visual countdown of dock/redock/gate aggression timer on our User Interface please?"
***
Thats pretty much how I'd phrase an issue of this sort for CSM voting and hopefully eventual presentation from the agenda to CCP.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.23 15:47:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Harla Branno Edited by: Harla Branno on 23/05/2008 14:18:56 Okay, I did not make a clear viewpoint, as I see. Here is a situation: someone undocks at a station in a Moros, releases sentry drones. He can gank anything (that is not a capital ship) he likes, then wait for a minute then dock. Nearly zero chance to kill him using current rules.
(edit: typo)
Any decent nanogang could just bump him off the station in that minute. What would be awsome was if there was a way to see what was outside without having to undock. Say maybe a "view port" or something along those lines that centered your camera on the station and allowed you to see outside the station. That or allow the overview to pop up when looking at the map inside the station.
Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
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Solostrom
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Posted - 2008.05.23 16:10:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Jade Constantine I think there is an issue with station-hugging dock/undock games - certainly. But I can't support this proposal unless its re-worded for clarity and specific proposal.
For example:
"Currently there is a problem with the docking timer being abused by well-tanked battleships (and capitals) being able to engage in combat and then de-aggress and redock to avoid significant counter-attack. This problem was caused by general increase in ship hit points over several incremental patches designed to specifically to lengthen combat while there has been a failure to lengthen re-dock/jump aggression timers by a similar degree.
Outcome is that station dock range (stargate range) fighting is currently overpowered since in the environment of increased hit points for all ships it becomes too difficult to destroy targets in the limited aggression window. This encourages over-blobbing as the only way to inflict sufficient damage on the target before it docks and has the knock-on effect of discouraging any combat at all. Question will CCP development agree this is a problem? And will they commit to increasing dock/redock/gate aggression timers to be in line with general ship hit point buffs since CASTOR? Roughly this would involve lengthening timers to 2-3x their current value.
Additional related question can we have a visual countdown of dock/redock/gate aggression timer on our User Interface please?"
***
Thats pretty much how I'd phrase an issue of this sort for CSM voting and hopefully eventual presentation from the agenda to CCP.
lulz... ya know Jade there is a reason why you won the vote. The ability to write clear and unambiguous English.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.23 16:18:00 -
[11]
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Jameroz
Echoes of Space
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Posted - 2008.05.23 18:42:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Harla Branno Suggestion: Easy. Do not allow docking anyone having global criminal flag.
This sounds very reasonable. Or even going further and not allowing docking for anyone with aggression flag toward another player.
Our small corporation is recruiting Finnish players. |
Myrkala
Aurora Acclivitous
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Posted - 2008.06.01 14:45:00 -
[13]
Increase length of aggression timers by 100%-200% to balance with HP buff seems to be the easiest way to "fix" this.
Dreads and carriers ships should have an even further increased aggression time to increase risk of undocking and engaging targets in a carrier/dread.
Another idea is to implement certain penalties of fighting in docking range.
Something along the lines of lower sensor strenght, lower sensor resolution, lower locking range. (I have not thought out all scenarios, this idea could be to much.)
:) "Ruppie ain't no puppie." |
Ethaet
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.06.01 14:58:00 -
[14]
lol -------------------------------------------------------------- Seriously, we need some kind of separation between the post and signature. There you go. Now that wasn't so hard |
Buck Starchaser
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Posted - 2008.06.02 11:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ethaet lol
I have to agree with you. If I want to fight someone and they are on the station I have to realize that they are there so that they can see outside, choose their targets wisely, and dock if nessisary. I would be an idiot not to weigh this into the strategy. Why insist that people can't fight on stations? Should they just stay docked and nobody get to play? Why are people demanding that the rules must change so that they can kill more people for making the mistake of undocking or demanding someone stay vulnerable for as long as it takes get revenge? Now people that undock, dock, undock, dock into a camp without agroing anyone just to waste people's time and ammo makes me want a redock timer that increases everytime you do that within a set period of time but that is not what the OP specified.
I have gotten a nice amount of kills on the station with my moros and haven't lost it yet but it wasn't because they were stupid and thought I wouldn't dock. They were bumping me while giving me targets to keep me agro'd trying to get me off of the station so they could kill off my drones and subsequently kill me. They've come close several times but I've been lucky so far. It makes sence though as my moros costs more than a 30 man gang. I can't survive that gang if I'm off the station but if I can down a few of them while taking a risk that I may be knocked off the station it makes for an exciting fight. I can fully understand why that gang would be fuming that I got a coupple of them and they didn't get my one ship but: A) I was unmistakeably on the station and have a kazillian hitpoints. B) I chose the battleground, they chose the attack plan and know the game mechanics. C) They could have won but they failed to achieve the mission objectives (bump or seige button to strand myself for 10 min, Keep me aggro'd without taking casualties) D) If I have a chance to loose a 3B isk ship (gotta fit it good for maximum performance) within docking range then I dang-well better have a chance to kill a few hundred mill of their ships for the risk I'm taking, that one of them is successfull at bumping or that they'll use the cyno-bump which has flung me at over 1km/s more than once. D) It's the station. They know I'm going to try to de-agro and dock if they let me. The only reason they're fighting me is to keep me agro'd while they work me away from docking range so they can kill me. And they will kill me if they succeed but nobody makes them do it and they're not doing it because they've been cheated or something. E) The moros is specifically designed for fighting smaller ships. It says so in its info thingy. F) I don't even shoot battleships because they can deagro and tank a moros until they can dock (I loose a drone about every 5 seconds and that cuts down on firepower as well as costing a lot) A moros can't gank a BS unless it enters seige mode and that guarantees death if fighting alone.
All in all, the station adds a dimension to fighting that can't be found anywhere else in the game. I'm often online when nobody else in my corp is. To be able to use the station tactically allows me to have sphincter-tightening combat mahem bloodbath heartattacks when I'm alone vs 10-30man fleets in the area and still have a chance of getting some kills or loosing really big. Against that many I'm tethered to the station because they would always win otherwise. I have to depend on them choosing to fight me on the station because there is nothing else I can do in that situation. The station doesn't need to be changed because this is another clear example of people not thinking about the endless variations the game can be played in and wanting the game changed to better suit their limited understanding of it.
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.06.02 11:27:00 -
[16]
rofl ethiat just posted lol... and you wrote an essay in reply to him.
I think all the points against this idea have been posted already :)
Afraid to say it but nerfing pirates in this case isn't a good thing. Which is sad. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Mighty Ahti
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:30:00 -
[17]
Make it so you can't target people while in docking range due to "interference" or something like that.. Then people need to go out of dock range to attack.
Or just have it push them outside of docking range when they aggress. |
Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:48:00 -
[18]
docking is ruining the game tbqh |
Kal'Kalagan
Aggressive Tendencies Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.06.11 11:43:00 -
[19]
Recently I have been on vacation from alliance warefare and seeking solo pvp. For my holiday hotspt I choose Curse and more specifically the systems RA- and HLW.
Now I use frigates of various kinds to roam around in and get fights but you cant kill much in a frigate solo so you need to start using bigger and more powerful ships. The problem is though that you will almost certainly get ganked. There is no way that anything above cruiser size can move around 0.0 safely - eventualyl you will get ganked and sooner rather than later in most cases.
So what did I do? I brought and fitted a heavy tanked BS and spent some time "station hugging" I'd engage what I could kill and de-aggress and dock whenever I was getting blobbed normally managing to take out some small supprto ships before the hostile heavy hitters forced me to dock.
Solo PvP is a dieing art in Eve, everywhere you go there are uncountable blobs and the only way to fight with any chanche of staying alive is the nanoship but still you options are limited.
I am strongly against anything that will once more limt the optiosn for solo PvP in 0.0.
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marie blueprint
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Posted - 2008.06.11 12:06:00 -
[20]
more pirat whining shhh undocking is already an i lose button if u dont have an uber pc |
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Inanna Zuni
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Posted - 2008.06.20 10:26:00 -
[21]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The CSM and CCP / Devs are now discussing this issue and an announcement regarding the outcome will be made in the near future. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
IZ
My principles |
ellie mayer
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Posted - 2008.06.20 11:00:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Inanna Zuni ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The CSM and CCP / Devs are now discussing this issue and an announcement regarding the outcome will be made in the near future. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
IZ
Phew well that's a problem solved then !
Next on the aganda is titan monster trucks!
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Inanna Zuni
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Posted - 2008.06.20 11:10:00 -
[23]
Originally by: ellie mayer Next on the aganda is titan monster trucks!
Um .. that seems to have been omitted from the agenda in front of me ;-P
IZ
My principles |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.26 16:49:00 -
[24]
Had a good discussion on this one. We made the point that its literally impossible to kill capital ships and well tanked battleships within the current 45 sec docking aggression window and this needs to be changed. We discussed the variable dock timer (after pvp aggression) for different hull classes (ie the bigger the hull the bigger the timer) and also a general increase in the timer to reflect the incremental hit point buffs received by all ships over the last few years of patches)
CCP recognized that by firing on another player you are committing yourself to pvp and there shouldn't be an easy "get out of the jail free" card from dock/undock games.
We also raised the Issue of remote repping being abusable in station dock range (stargate jump range) warfare and addressed the possibility of having reps vs a ship in aggression timer counting as aggression for the repper. (ie if you rep a ship that cannot dock due to the docking aggression timer the repairing ship will also get the docking aggression timer).
Additionally we raised as a UI Issue - could we get a docking/jump aggression timer visisible as a countdown - similar screen area to the global aggression timer.
This got registered a High Priority Issue for fixing and balance.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Opertone
SIEGE. The Border Patrol
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Posted - 2008.08.17 17:53:00 -
[25]
station hugging must be balanced as well as station camping
dock/undock games are annoying
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I SoStoned
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Posted - 2008.08.18 02:03:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Harla Branno Edited by: Harla Branno on 23/05/2008 14:18:56 Okay, I did not make a clear viewpoint, as I see. Here is a situation: someone undocks at a station in a Moros, releases sentry drones. He can gank anything (that is not a capital ship) he likes, then wait for a minute then dock. Nearly zero chance to kill him using current rules.
(edit: typo)
A carrier undocks from a station, deploys a damn armada of drones/fighters, ganks freely while the attackers futilely try to get to him through the docking ring, recalls his armada & docks while laughing.
YES, station hugging is bugged all to hell.
The invulnerability timer needs to be based on the grid load. The higher the grid load the longer a ship is untouchable (and thus remains within docking range). Once the ship takes any action other than 'dock' it's fair game for 60 seconds... unless it initiates aggression and then it's stuck for, let's say:
0.25 seconds multiplied by the signature radius of the ship? Thus a frigate can dock pretty quickly, while a BS has nearly 100 seconds to sit there and tank... and then there's the sig radius of a capital ship, change their multiple to 0.5 seconds*sig. This is, OFC, after the target ship initiates aggression. If they don't aggro they can sit there and dock at their liesure regardless of their size (even if you bump them 200km, they still have the 'dock' option).
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Carniflex
StarHunt Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.08.25 06:49:00 -
[27]
Doking games are lame. Easiest solution would be to make redock timer a lot longer than minute. Say 5 mins.
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.08.25 07:17:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Had a good discussion on this one. We made the point that its literally impossible to kill capital ships and well tanked battleships within the current 45 sec docking aggression window and this needs to be changed. We discussed the variable dock timer (after pvp aggression) for different hull classes (ie the bigger the hull the bigger the timer) and also a general increase in the timer to reflect the incremental hit point buffs received by all ships over the last few years of patches)
CCP recognized that by firing on another player you are committing yourself to pvp and there shouldn't be an easy "get out of the jail free" card from dock/undock games.
We also raised the Issue of remote repping being abusable in station dock range (stargate jump range) warfare and addressed the possibility of having reps vs a ship in aggression timer counting as aggression for the repper. (ie if you rep a ship that cannot dock due to the docking aggression timer the repairing ship will also get the docking aggression timer).
Additionally we raised as a UI Issue - could we get a docking/jump aggression timer visisible as a countdown - similar screen area to the global aggression timer.
This got registered a High Priority Issue for fixing and balance.
Good work Jade/CSM (Dear god did I just say that?)
The Moros pilot a few posts above is exactly why this needs to be changed, engaging huge gangs with zero risk to yourself.
When I was in low sec I HAD to blob in order to fight station huggers. Or else I 1v1 or 1v2 and the enemies just dock up. So I had to bring 5+ BS with me to kill the station hugger. Not to mention the remote-repping and other tactics, fighting on a station is the most boring, unfun and unexciting PvP I have ever been in. I'd rather suicide on noob ships. --
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
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fuze
Chosen Path Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.08.25 07:50:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Opertone dock/undock games are annoying
qft |
Another Forum'Alt
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Posted - 2008.08.25 11:55:00 -
[30]
No docking for 15 min = moar blobs.
Do you want blobs?
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