Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Avtambaram
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.05.24 00:27:00 -
[1]
The objective of this thread is to agree and disagree, with reasons and valid logic, on any similarities and/or dissimilarities between the Heth as a character and Adolph ******.
Here is a bit about reasons for starting this thread before getting into relevance and birth of the idea behind the same. I wrote a paper in my freshman year of college (4 years ago) on the life of Adolph ******. The paper was written in an unbiased, objective, yet analytical manner. I was very pleased with the way it turned out and so was my class instructor. The paper is not with me at the moment and I am not going to bother looking for it either. Presented below is my analysis of the similarities between Heth (and his decisions) and Adolph ******.
Heth's recent quarantine of Gallente expatriates in the State reminded me of ******'s issuance of quarantine of Jews. But lets not begin here. Let us look at the circumstances under which ****** rose into the limelight and compare them to Heth's. ******'s rise into the limelight of German political scene began when German society was facing corruption at the hands of (what was believed to be) primarily a Jewish aristocracy. The middle class German was not fairing so well and a lot of blame went to the Jews. It was during this time that ****** seems to have developed his bias towards the Jewish population. Tibus Heth also seems to harbor a similar hatred towards the Gallente population within the State. This seems to be the case as he blamed the Gallente expatriates in the State for the corruption that has risen within the corporations forming the Caldari State. Adolph ****** had made an initial failed attempt to overthrow the then German government. Tibus Heth is dissimilar in that regard, he did not have a government to overthrow. However, Heth did make an initial failed attempt at assuming ownership of a Caldari corporation. Whether he was justified or not is another issue as we are comparing the Adolph ****** and Tibus Heth here. To sum up this initial though provoking post, I want to mention the similarity between ******Ęs quarantine of the Jews and HethĘs recent quarantine of the Gallente expatriates. Whether HethĘs quarantine results in the holocaust that ******Ęs did is not certain at this point. But one canĘt help wonder, what if it did. The character of Tibus Heth and certain decisions and circumstances of Adolph ******Ęs seem to be striking similar. These similarities may be mere coincidence. But they may also not be coincidental. We will know more as the story within the universe that is EVE unfolds. I have to say this too. Gallente are of French origin. And Caldari are greatly characterized by the ępower house of EuropeĘ persona of Germany. Even the intro to EVE video mentions that the Caldari emerged as the strongest among the four races. It says they were driven by pursuit of economic and military power. That is much too like the **** war machine in my mind. I do not mean this in a derogatory manner. EVE is all about our love for ISKies, our ability to exercise serious military muscle in the game, and to have fun while doing so, ofcourse. Gallente (French origin)/Caldari (German persona) hmmm. I wonder what that means, friends/rivalsąhmmm.
|
Avtambaram
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.05.24 00:28:00 -
[2]
I guess I should have used Himler istead of H_it_ler. lol.
|
Stitcher
Duty.
|
Posted - 2008.05.24 00:40:00 -
[3]
((Sorry to drop OOC for a second here, but I strongly doubt that the EVE universe would even have heard of a certain dictatorial German with stupid facial hair and genocidal tendencies. Remember, the "modern age" in EVE is tens of thousand of years in the future from our perspective, and all the history of Earth has become myth and legend at best. As such, this thread would probably be better off over in the EVE Library)) -
Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
|
Posted - 2008.05.24 00:50:00 -
[4]
He's got a point there. Ishukone HQ = Reichstag fire :D
|
Vreena
Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu Celestial Imperative
|
Posted - 2008.05.24 01:20:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Stitcher ((Sorry to drop OOC for a second here, but I strongly doubt that the EVE universe would even have heard of a certain dictatorial German with stupid facial hair and genocidal tendencies. Remember, the "modern age" in EVE is tens of thousand of years in the future from our perspective, and all the history of Earth has become myth and legend at best. As such, this thread would probably be better off over in the EVE Library))
((Agreed, though you do have a point. )) -----
The above does not reflect the views and/or opinions of my corporation or alliance...well it could, but let's not be presumptuous, okay? |
Kohiko Sun
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
|
Posted - 2008.05.24 01:22:00 -
[6]
*Uploads the pamphlet.*
This is where I found my sig. |
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.05.24 03:48:00 -
[7]
Sounds like a fungus.
Goal Line Blitz, an American Football MMO |
Avtambaram
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.05.24 04:14:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Avtambaram on 24/05/2008 04:17:11
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu He's got a point there. Ishukone HQ = Reichstag fire :D
Exactly! You've made another great point of similarity. I would not be surprised actually if the quarintined Gallente expatriates are illtreated. It would be sad if that happens. It would be immensely sad if EVE experiences a holocaust at the hands of Tibus Heth. And it would be such an occurance that will bring the seemingly passive Federation to come to arms. Edit:text underlined
|
Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
|
Posted - 2008.05.24 04:55:00 -
[9]
By the way before the mods get to you: you need to remove your post working around the spelling of the leader of the National Socialist party in Germany from 1930-1945. It is against the Forum rules and I had a whole post deleted because I did something similar to what you did. Perhaps we should refer to him by the same means Nostradamus did - Hister anyone? or perhaps Adolf would be simpler.
|
Avtambaram
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.05.24 05:22:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Avtambaram on 24/05/2008 05:23:06 Edited by: Avtambaram on 24/05/2008 05:22:55
Originally by: Dex Nederland By the way before the mods get to you: you need to remove your post working around the spelling of the leader of the National Socialist party in Germany from 1930-1945. It is against the Forum rules and I had a whole post deleted because I did something similar to what you did. Perhaps we should refer to him by the same means Nostradamus did - Hister anyone? or perhaps Adolf would be simpler.
Edit: Point duly noted and acted upon. Thank you
|
|
Avtambaram
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.05.24 05:57:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Avtambaram on 24/05/2008 05:58:58 I donot understand the paranoia associated with mentioning the German leader by his actual name. It seems like the case with Harry Potter series's Lord Voldermont where none wanted to mention him by his name. I would really appreciate it if a mod or any other knowledgable individual enlighten me on the 'German leader who's name we do not mention' phenomenon. After all, history did take place the way it did and mentioning the leader in an unbiased, non critical, academically acceptable manner should not be a problem in any forum of intellectual value.
|
Silver Night
Naqam Project Alice.
|
Posted - 2008.05.24 09:34:00 -
[12]
If I recall, there may be some sort of thing in Germany. But this forum has a bunch of weird filters, like cr.ack and such. --------------
The Clown Man. GLS Mr. State Caldari Patriot. Sansha's Nation Supporter
|
Pria Pus
|
Posted - 2008.05.24 11:46:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Avtambaram Edited by: Avtambaram on 24/05/2008 05:58:58 I donot understand the paranoia associated with mentioning the German leader by his actual name. It seems like the case with Harry Potter series's Lord Voldermont where none wanted to mention him by his name. I would really appreciate it if a mod or any other knowledgable individual enlighten me on the 'German leader who's name we do not mention' phenomenon. After all, history did take place the way it did and mentioning the leader in an unbiased, non critical, academically acceptable manner should not be a problem in any forum of intellectual value.
The only thing i can think about ist the 'stupidness' of the automatic filtersoftware used in many forums. The problem is, that this piece of Software is not able to say if it is just a discussion in an adult manner about historical facts and fiction or if it is something including Godwin's law. So it filters all away and it must be reinserted by hand by a mod. Which is, by any means, a work I wouldn't want to do ;-) And so every mod staying away from this is excused i think.
|
Morgana Tsukiyo
Aborier Crystallus Infinite Innovation
|
Posted - 2008.05.24 13:17:00 -
[14]
Actually, the Gallente quarantine is similar to the USA grounded concentration camps with the Japanese.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment
Basic formula
We want war We make/let happen/instigate an attack on us We make furious statments against the ones who attacked us We consider every one of them enemies until proven otherwise We gain near unlimited power of a bellic machine We iniciate a war on terror
Hmmm, i wonder what looks like it in modern days....
|
Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
|
Posted - 2008.05.24 15:17:00 -
[15]
Fair enough on the US Government's interment of the Japanese, but there is a slight difference. War has not begun between the Federation and the State, it is on the horizon. The Japanese were interred after the beginning of war.
The sneak attack on the Ishukone HQ is not a Pearl Harbor style attack. The Station is of relatively little military value and it was a target of opportunity on the part of Noir, who appears to have acted alone.
Also Roosevelt did not rise from obscurity through violence to his position. He had held the position for quiet awhile before the Japanese attack.
The single instance of interment of the Gallente in the State does also line up with the interment of Japanese-Americans. But the events leading up to the interment of the Gallente is not similar to the US and is closer to the rise of National Socialism in Germany in the 1930s and its persecution of the Jews.
A different storyline would make the comparision with the US-Japan relationship more accurate.
|
Morgana Tsukiyo
Aborier Crystallus
|
Posted - 2008.05.24 16:15:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Morgana Tsukiyo on 24/05/2008 16:18:47 Edited by: Morgana Tsukiyo on 24/05/2008 16:16:19 It¦s not a single block, otherwise it¦s just copy.
Follow the formula, it¦s the same in different places and time.
Attack on morale/pride Rise of power War against the (insert adjective here) that attacked us Money money money
1 - The Attack on the station looks like 9/11 2 - The rise of power could be either a Communist regim or the National Socialism party. Justifies the new regime tone of aggression / gives the regime a tone of agression
(We are attacking because they attacked us / Told ya they would attack us, what else can we do ?)
3 - Minority agression as scapegoats / Concentration camps
4 - Reconstruction (Ka-ching $$$)
In this chain of events we have WWII (Germany / Japan / US) - 9/11 and after (Afghanistan / Iraq / Iran [Yeah, on the way to])
This is the recent US politics. A ship blowing up a building ? Ha =p
A certain president comes out of a obscure adminsitration, becomes the leader of the people, runs for a second election, reduces civil rights (Patriotic act), goes into neverending war against an idea (Terror terror terror, it¦s everywhere !)
Then you have the will of the people supporting a fascist state in the name of a illusion of security (If we dont protect you, you will DIE ! FEAR FEAR HAT HATE HATE FREEDOM FREEDOM FREEDOM)
|
Sakuma Ogunuchi
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
|
Posted - 2008.05.25 01:15:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Sakuma Ogunuchi on 25/05/2008 01:15:37
Originally by: Avtambaram Gallente are of French origin. And Caldari are greatly characterized by the ępower house of EuropeĘ persona of Germany.
IĘd say the Caldari culture is based more on the Japanese than WWII germany, but IĘd agree that the Caldari military doctrine is very similar to Blitzkrieg.
--------------------- Quality Caldari goods. |
Thorradin
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.05.25 17:02:00 -
[18]
There have been dozens if not hundreds of leaders throuought history that have risen in power in similar ways. Simply comparing the two H's is seriously dumbing the whole thing down, and some of the comparisons are a bit...meh.
Burning of the Reichstag=9/11=Noir Nyx run?
No, not quite. One was an inside job, another was allowed to happen due to incompetence in the 90s, and the latter was a highly praised person turning out to be bat**** crazy.
Saying all 3 are the same simply because the leader at the time gained alot of support is just an easy excuse to link them. Historically you will find such acts have ALWAYS rallied people together against the assailant. Most people tend to get mad when someone attacks their home, even if they don't like their home in some cases. It is their home regardless.
Also I think you're the first person I've ever heard try to connect the Caldari to the Germans (granted both are words you don't add ian/an to), they seem more Japanese to me.
|
Stitcher
Duty.
|
Posted - 2008.05.25 19:44:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Thorradin Burning of the Reichstag=9/11=Noir Nyx run?
No, not quite. One was an inside job, another was allowed to happen due to incompetence in the 90s, and the latter was a highly praised person turning out to be bat**** crazy.
Saying all 3 are the same simply because the leader at the time gained alot of support is just an easy excuse to link them. Historically you will find such acts have ALWAYS rallied people together against the assailant. Most people tend to get mad when someone attacks their home, even if they don't like their home in some cases. It is their home regardless.
I agree. just look at how Margaret Thatcher's popularity soared during the Falklands conflict.
Skilled politicians - even principled, well-intentioned ones - are very quick to capitalize on the potential popularity boon that a national crisis can afford them. -
Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Morgana Tsukiyo
Aborier Crystallus
|
Posted - 2008.05.26 01:02:00 -
[20]
"Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country." [Hermann Goering]
What i¦m saying is that the Admiral Alexander incident, and the course of the Caldari state have similarities with several events instead of just one.
As Avtambaram said, the process does look a lot like the events on Germany of tht period. However, it¦s ust a matter of looking further to see that the type of events (a general formula) applies in several other events in larger or smaller scale.
Ha, just remembered.... In "24" the following events
President Palmer refuses to implement security measures that would suspend civil liberties and refuses to take military action against countries some believe supported the attacks. Instead, he enlists Assad to make a speech to the world asking his people to give the U.S. information on locating Fayed and move towards peace. Some in the government, claiming to be true patriots, are unhappy with Palmer's plan, namely Deputy Chief of Staff Reed Pollock. He plans to assassinate the President and frame Hamri Al-Assad for the attack. Chief of Staff Tom Lennox tries to prevent such attempt, but he is unsuccessful as the podium explodes, killing Assad and leaving Palmer in critical condition.
What i fail to understand is how people can¦t see trough this general formula, and still go over and over again with the same response.
|
|
zoolkhan
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
|
Posted - 2008.05.26 07:35:00 -
[21]
Edited by: zoolkhan on 26/05/2008 07:43:28
Dear Fellow player, if you touch historical and delicate facts like these in a global played game you need to be accurate and careful. Allow me to correct:
Originally by: Avtambaram
Edit: Adolph=Himler=leader of the National Socialist party in Germany from 1930-1945
Adolf and Himler have been two different persons
Himmler was member of the Party, but not its leader. His Focus was Propaganda. He was also leader of the SS and as such main responsible for the holocaust.
Originally by: Avtambaram
Edit 2: Nuzi=National Socialist party in Germany from 1930-1945
"nuzi" a non existong term. "n4zi" is just short for Nationalsozialist.
Someone can be a n4zi by thoughts and actions (usually the negative way, todays they have less brain than hair and call themself "skinheads")
However one is not member of "n4zi" as that is not the name of a organisation. the name of the Party was NSDAP (national-sozialistische deutsche arbeiter partei) (national socialistic german labour party)
Originally by: Avtambaram
The objective of this thread is to agree and disagree, with reasons and valid logic, on any similarities and/or dissimilarities between the Heth as a character and Adolph.
I disagree; because a thread like this is doomed to derail. People who have no first hand experience of the history fail to have respect for it.
recruiting -forum
|
Stitcher
Duty.
|
Posted - 2008.05.26 12:05:00 -
[22]
Zoolkhan, the terms you're complaining about are just attempts to hold the discussion without triggering the forum's text filtering software. Who cares if they aren't strictly accurate? The point is the message, not the pedantic details.
as for whether or not this conversation is doomed to derail - only if you insist on making it derail, mate. Conversations don't, as a rule, just derail themselves - it takes a few people really working at it to cause it to happen.
So long as people attempt to remain mature and level-headed about it all - which, thus far, we have - then I see no reason why this can't be a productive little chat. There's no need for this whole "OH EMM GEE HE MENTIONED TEH NAR-ZEES! THIS CONVERSATION CANNOT POSSIBLY BE MATURE!" rubbish. -
Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 20:52:00 -
[23]
More fuel for the comparison today (2 Jun 08) with the Provist taking 'donations' from Gallente fleeting the State. Very similar to the acquisition of Jewish wealth during the 1930s in Germany.
One of the issues I had with the article is that it mentions legality, but I have no idea by which legal code it is basing said legality. Is it illegal in the State, KK, or the Federation? If it is the State or KK there is a different problem than the Federation. The Federation has no authority in the State and as such it isn't illegal for the State to act.
If the Gallente in question are no longer employees of a corporation, I suspect there 'rights' in the State are almost non-existant, a corporation has to be willing to protect them.
|
K'lek
|
Posted - 2008.06.03 22:05:00 -
[24]
Some thoughts:
Germany was never run by the corporations, they controlled the corporations. Sure, they had influence, that is why the German state nationalized them when the National Socialists took over.
The Caldari seem much more like Gibson's dystopia. Gallante have their own state, Jews did not.
Questionable acts being used to demonized a potential enemy is common USA tactic. The Maine, the Alamo, the Lustitania, Perl Harbor, Tonken Gulf, 9/11 etc. Some may argue they were preventable, staged, or the government "let" it happen. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence. (The Maine has been proved conclusively to be an accident, that is an exception)
And there is a very good reason: Americans are not as bloodthirsty as some would like to believe. We were slow to get into both wars, and we need to be "outraged" to sanction war acts.
Once you manage to stir us up... watch out. The Gallante deportations smack of the Japanese internment, not the concentration camps.
Personally, I hope it never goes that dark, I would likely cancel my subscription if they made the Caldari out to be that evil.
That would be a pity.
|
Marie Trudeau
Federal Defence Union
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:55:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Marie Trudeau on 12/06/2008 02:00:19 It's not meant to be a direct parallel. Tony et al certainly *drew* on human history, but changed enough things to make it distinctive and suitable for the setting. But certain parallels are unmistakeable, however much they may be denied. Even the recent recapture of Caldari Prime -- one must remember the role that the powerful draw of irridentism played in the rise of fascist parties in Italy, Austria, Germany and elsewhere in the 1930s. The first land grabs were spun as simply "retaking what was ours (by force)". This is what has happened with CP: it is like EVE's Sudetenland on steroids (because it was the former home world). Again similarities -- not razor straight analogies, but similarities.
Quote: Personally, I hope it never goes that dark, I would likely cancel my subscription if they made the Caldari out to be that evil.
Oh it wouldn't be that the Caldari were evil at all, any more than all Germans were evil during that period. But Heth is definitely being played as an evil man -- perhaps seducing the citizenry by irridentist conquest, much the same way that real life fascist leaders did in the 1930s -- it's the red meat that kept their supporters happy. Heth is the same. There are definite parallels. That doesn't mean all Caldari are evil, but it may mean that the current Caldari regime is something like that. |
Privavarian
Evil Activities Diabolic Paradox
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 10:38:00 -
[26]
WIR MUSSEN DIE CALDARI AUSROTTEN |
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |