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Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.24 18:12:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Yorda on 24/05/2008 18:15:42 First off, the nidhoggur and hel on their own are pretty decent but the whole design of minmatar capitals is completely crap. Lets start by taking a look at training requirements of all capitals, and especially the dreadnaughts.
They all require the same basic skills to get into, but when it comes to the fitting minmatar gets screwed.
Amarr capitals: All capitals armor tank, dreads need Large energy wep V, cap skills need to be focused on.
Caldari capitals: All capitals shield tank, dreads need torps V.
Gallente capitals: All capitals armor tank, dreads need Large hybrid wep V, drone skills need to be focused on.
Minmatar capitals: Dreadnaughts and supercaps are shield tanked while the nidhoggur is primarily armor tanked, dreads need torps V and large projectile V.
For most races, training for a carrier and then a dread is easy but for minmatar it literally takes months extra to get both while the skills used rarely help with non-capital ships. Dreads and carriers get severly screwed when it comes to the actual cpu/pg and slots.
The Naglfar:
In order to compete, the Naglfar needs to spend four of it's low slots on damage modules leaving it with a 5 slot shield tank. Unfortunatly it cannot target to sniping range without a sensor booster, so it is left with a 4 slot shield tank. This leaves it with the weakest tank and lowest effective hp of the four dreads. On top of this, it needs two co-processors to fit everything.
Even after spending four low slots on damage mods, and comparing the four dreads with all skills at level 5 (which is a lot harder for a naglfar because you need both missile skills and gunnery skills at V) the naglfar has the second lowest damage, barely out damaging the phoenix but coming no where near the phoenix's insane alpha.
This makes absolutely no sense. You have the weakest tank, the hardest training requirements, the hardest fitting requirements (needing two fitting mods while none of the other dreads require this), spend four slots on damage mods, and you end up with the flimsiest dreadnaught doing pitiful damage.
The Nidhoggur:
Even after its change to the same slot layout as the thanatos, it has 31 less cpu, 160000 less pg, 10000 less capacitor (although the regen is faster), 50000 less effective hp, and 1000 less dronebay than the thanatos. It is also the only carrier who has a different tank from the race's mothership.
Fitting both the nidhoggur and thanatos exactly the same the nidhoggur ends up doing significantly less damage, has a lot less effective hp, has less total capacitor, but can remote rep a lot better. The nidhoggurs only saving grace is that it can rep pos's faster and is marginally more useful in spider tanking.
As you can see, minmatar capitals in general need a good review. Their training time is rediculous in comparison to other races, and you get little to no benefit from it. I propose a few things:
Naglfar:
- Cpu boost
2 extra mid slots, one less low slot A complete shift to projectile only weapons, OR 3 gun hardpoints and 3 missile launcher hardpoints with a boost to the ships damage bonus for both
Nidhoggur:
- CPU and pg boost
1 extra mid slots Capacitor boost (the only thing it's good at is remote repping, give it the capacitor to do so) Increase the bonus from the ship so that it's boosting potential is a lot higher
tl;dr Fix the naglfar and nidhoggur.
EDIT: The sig bonus on the Ragnarok is pretty terrible too.
Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
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Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.24 18:13:00 -
[2]
I could of sworn I clicked the support box...
Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
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Bad Harlequin
Chiroptera Factor
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Posted - 2008.05.24 18:19:00 -
[3]
Well presented. I hear a lot of "naglfar lol" "well at least it's vertical" but no one's articulated why very well. Thanks!
Zleip > very, and this is more or less a post of humor that seriousness =)
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Hrin
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.24 21:43:00 -
[4]
nagalfars are the first dreads to be primaried for a reason
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BlondieBC
7th Tribal Legion
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Posted - 2008.05.25 03:08:00 -
[5]
Minnie Capitals need love. I much higher SP's to use, then should be most powerful when mastered.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.05.25 03:31:00 -
[6]
Yeah, Minmatar capitals blow. Caldari are pretty bad, but at least they can tank. It's the ancient problem with some Minmatar ships - I call it "Typhoon syndrome". Take a ship, give it the same number of bonuses as any other ship, and make them only apply to half as much of your stuff. The result is a ship that's got the same nominal power as any other, but no synergy whatsoever - i.e., a piece of crap, relative to a focused ship. The Naglfar suffers terribly from this. You'd think it'd have the highest DPS of the dreads, given the extra weapon slot, but because of the extra need for damage mods, and the fact that it's short a bonus compared to the Phoenix and Moros, mean that it's actually one of the lowest. Plus, given the lack of logistics while sieged, it's got no room for cap gear, and therefore can't tank for any extended period of time either.
As for the carriers, they're less obviously terrible. Comparing the DPS and bay to the Thanatos is a bit disingenuous - of course the Gallente get the best drone boats. That's hardly a sign of a needed patch. The rep bonus is hardly gamebreaking, but it's at least plausible and useful in some cases. Perhaps the other numbers need looking at(though most capitals are way under on grid, and if the cap recharges at a similar absolute rate that's unlikely to be a problem either), but the Nid is not obviously bad.
As for the Ragnarok, yeah, its fleet bonus is really lame. Maybe if it was 15% per level? I dunno. I'd suggest a speed/mass bonus, but speed is one thing this game hardly needs more of until they come up with a better counter than the ones that exist as of now. You could also do something really crazy like a flat fleet ROF bonus(say, 2% per level), but that might get a little overpowered. But the current bonus sucks. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
LiquidSteele
Canadian Assault Network
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Posted - 2008.05.25 03:33:00 -
[7]
Agreed.
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Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.25 03:43:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto As for the Ragnarok, yeah, its fleet bonus is really lame. Maybe if it was 15% per level? I dunno. I'd suggest a speed/mass bonus, but speed is one thing this game hardly needs more of until they come up with a better counter than the ones that exist as of now. You could also do something really crazy like a flat fleet ROF bonus(say, 2% per level), but that might get a little overpowered. But the current bonus sucks.
I'd like to see an agility bonus instead. It's not too overpowered (like a mass reduction would be) but it's also got it's purpose for all ships. Smaller ships have more of a transversal, capitals and plated bses can align and warp faster, and it's not too strong or too weak.
Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
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Ren Tales
Crimson Flag
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Posted - 2008.05.25 09:56:00 -
[9]
Signed by far ---- Want to learn how to yar? Want to teach young pirates? Crimson Flag is Recruiting
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Scagga Laebetrovo
Delictum 23216 San Matari.
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Posted - 2008.05.25 10:04:00 -
[10]
How about reducing build costs but retaining it's apparent 'crapiness'?
San Matari Official forums |
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Kis Kecheri
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Posted - 2008.05.25 10:35:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo How about reducing build costs but retaining it's apparent 'crapiness'?
You can only bring one per account so keeping the same effectiveness but lowering the cost is of no value to a FC.
Supporting the Goon with this one.
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Kame Malice
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Posted - 2008.05.25 10:52:00 -
[12]
Logical argument.... well articulated...
And you're actualy right...
You have this players support
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Yorda
Battlestars
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Posted - 2008.05.27 00:33:00 -
[13]
I wonder if this would have been recieved differently if I had posted it on an alt.
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mucklavee
The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.27 06:28:00 -
[14]
suported minmatar needs alot of lovin in this department
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RoCkEt X
The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.05.27 11:27:00 -
[15]
minmatar have always needed a large variety of skills to fly, its like saying they should fix it becuase the phoon needs armor skills, and drone skills - and the maelstrom needs gun and shield skills. its just the way minmatar has always been - its not just the caps.
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TheCraftyHippo
Vanguard Frontiers Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.05.28 01:57:00 -
[16]
I completely agree. I am 100% Minmitar specced, and I've stopped at BS5. It's completely pointless going any further than that.
Training for a capital should be a fun and rewarding goal, not something you spend months doing knowing that you're going to land up with the worst that the game has to offer. Please don't shoot me. I'll explode. |
Yorda
Battlestars
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Posted - 2008.05.28 03:01:00 -
[17]
Originally by: RoCkEt X minmatar have always needed a large variety of skills to fly, its like saying they should fix it becuase the phoon needs armor skills, and drone skills - and the maelstrom needs gun and shield skills. its just the way minmatar has always been - its not just the caps.
That's fine, but with faction damage mods (4 on a nag, 2 on the other dreads) and all skills level V the naglfar does allmost 20% less damage (close to 1000 less dps). It just doesn't make sense that it has the weakest tank, second lowest dps, lowest alpha, and takes the longest to train for.
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Stephannus Calimben
Trill Crabulas Nihil-Obstat
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Posted - 2008.05.28 03:31:00 -
[18]
/signed. Minmatar need some luvin
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Joshua Foiritain
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.05.28 08:13:00 -
[19]
Fix pls.
-----
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Draugrist Ithil
the oNe Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.28 09:17:00 -
[20]
I concur with Minmatar loving
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Gilgamoth
Eldritch Storm
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Posted - 2008.05.28 11:29:00 -
[21]
I have to agree.
I don't mind training the extra skills to Armour/Shield tank and fire Guns/Missiles/Drones, but I don't want to waste all that time on the worst caps in game.
Oh wait, I already did
Regards,
Gil
Live on Eden Underground Radio every Wednesday 19:00 - 21:00 GMT. |
Block Ukx
KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.05.28 13:45:00 -
[22]
I agree with the OP.
BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk |
Mah Kraah
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.05.28 16:26:00 -
[23]
nothing to ad
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TimMc
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.05.28 16:43:00 -
[24]
Split weapons blow.
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Jacque Custeau
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
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Posted - 2008.05.28 18:02:00 -
[25]
Minmatar ships generally have less capacitor and tanking abilities than the other races, but this has always been justified by projectiles not needing any cap and superior agility and speed.
In the case of the Nidhoggur and the Hel, there are no projectile guns, and the speed is pathetic. CCP should either make all carriers have the same cap (they already all have the same number of high slots) or reduce the mass of those ships to 10% of their current value so they can nano like other matari ships.
-------------------
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Yorda
Battlestars
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Posted - 2008.05.28 19:46:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jacque Custeau Minmatar ships generally have less capacitor and tanking abilities than the other races, but this has always been justified by projectiles not needing any cap and superior agility and speed.
In the case of the Nidhoggur and the Hel, there are no projectile guns, and the speed is pathetic. CCP should either make all carriers have the same cap (they already all have the same number of high slots) or reduce the mass of those ships to 10% of their current value so they can nano like other matari ships.
IIRC the hel and the nidhoggur have a shorter align time and are a bit faster than other motherships / carriers, but you cant really nano them because the entire strength of the carrier / mothership is the remote rep circlejerk to stay alive in large fights. Nano's would kill your effective hp and tankable damage, it's just not an alternative.
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Eirikk
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Posted - 2008.05.29 14:09:00 -
[27]
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Sapphrine
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.05.29 15:28:00 -
[28]
support for a well presented problem.
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RobbehT
Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2008.05.29 15:42:00 -
[29]
/Signed Well put together post about the minmatar capital problems, only thing going for them is how sexy they look! but on that note, bring back the sharks teeth on the niddy!!
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Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.29 20:26:00 -
[30]
Originally by: RobbehT /Signed Well put together post about the minmatar capital problems, only thing going for them is how sexy they look! but on that note, bring back the sharks teeth on the niddy!!
I love the way the hel looks, wish all the motherships where a bit bigger though. Like in the cinematic trailer for trinity it showed the hell in the middle of the huge fleet and that thing looked like the size of a titan, in game it's only a bit bigger than the nidhoggur though.
Also never really liked the way the naglfar looked.
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