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Author |
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Alex Cash
Infinity Enterprises Daisho Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.06.26 23:00:00 -
[211]
Total support, especially on the dreadnought front.
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SickSeven
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Posted - 2008.06.27 22:24:00 -
[212]
.... nvm.
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Nullshadow
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Posted - 2008.06.30 19:31:00 -
[213]
Edited by: Nullshadow on 30/06/2008 19:31:56 It is difficult for me to give emphatic support as I have never flown a combat capital of any stripe. However, I have chosen not to partially because of the issues with the Minnie capitals, particularly the Nagl, that I have read about and verified as best as I can through EFT/Quickfit/spreadsheets. As such, I certainly support a review and likely some level of boost. In particular the pressing need to use fitting modules make "standard" fittings work should be addressed.
OTOH from a lore perspective I think that the Minmatar capitals should remain weaker overall. The Minmatar have only been free of the Amarr for 125 years now, and as such all of our ship designs are at most a couple of centuries old. By contrast the other races have been working on their ship designs for millenia; for example Khanid hijacked an Amarr titan 600 years ago, almost half a millenia before we gained our freedom. While our engineers may be just as good and knowledgeable, we still have to catch up on refining our designs/design principles. Additionally our racial "trademark" tactics are hit-and-run rather than giant sieges. This is supported in-game by the excellent smaller ships. It would not be supported by having excellent massive sit-and-siege ships. Thus I would mostly support an incremental rather than a substantial improvement.
In fact while it is far too late for such a drastic change, I think that the existing Minmatar dread is completely out of line with our war philosophy and experience. I would have thought that it should be small and agile, perhaps having only two turrets and no missiles. It should make up for what it loses in siege damage by being far more capable at dealing with smaller ships (supplanting the Moros in this primacy), with substantially better locking and align times, possibly tracking bonuses, and a reduced siege cycle time (with reduced strontium use per cycle so that the strontium/time remains constant) so that they can cut and run far more easily. Something of that sort would make sense for the kind of war we fought against the Amarr for freedom, and continue to fight now.
That latter might still be an option for making the Nagl more viable without changing the unenviable split bonuses and slot issues: give it a 50% drop in cycle length and a proportional 50% drop in strontium use per cycle. It would cost the same per unit time to siege and the cycles would remain calibrated with the rest of the fleet, but it would give the Nagl more of the hit-and-run style while also allowing more chances to break out of siege mode to get remote repped. This would alleviate some of the issues with getting called primary, while being a bit in tune with the Minmatar racial flavor. Someone might even get some mileage out of an all-Nagl fast strike fleet. It's just a thought - I don't mean to hijack the thread with too many left-field ideas. ;) |
SickSeven
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Posted - 2008.06.30 20:16:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Nullshadow ;)
You bring up good points. However, Look at the Maelstrom and the Hurricane. We are making advances. And the Nag is simply a much larger Typhoon, whereas the Phoon requires Twice or arguably THREE times the skills required to make it as effective as other race BS, the Nag also requires TWICE the weapons training of other BS, and is still subpar.
I'm going to keep saying this: Why is it assumed Minmatar players have to train MORE skills to be competitive?? |
Nullshadow
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Posted - 2008.07.01 00:17:00 -
[215]
I agree on the advances front. It's one of the cooler things about the history that is the live time of Eve - we have seen significant progress in technology over the last five years. Even if it is unreasonably fast for real technological discoveries it hooks me, moreso than the arbitrary "this new expansion has x-many new levels!" of most MMOs. It could also be used to justify fixes to the Nagl. Or we can just hope for the apparently-superior Thukker Nagl to be sold to pod pilots. =D
Originally by: SickSeven I'm going to keep saying this: Why is it assumed Minmatar players have to train MORE skills to be competitive??
I can't argue with you, because it is nonsensical. I can see no good justification in either game mechanics terms nor in lore terms* for penalizing Minmatar skill-wise. I would be happy to chime in support of you in a (separate) thread on the insanity that is Minmatar skill requirements, even though I doubt that CCP would ever do a massive overhaul of an entire race. I hinted at my own opinion in the prior post by saying that I thought a (smaller) all-proj dread would have made more sense. ;) My lore-tainted take is that we should have a marginally weaker ship with significant mobility advantages (27 seconds vs. 30 or whatever it is for align does NOT cut it) that takes no more time to train for than other races' capitals - i.e. a unified tank style and a focused weapon slotting and bonuses.
OTOH, having had to master projectiles & missiles & drones & armor tank & shield tank & core skills has made it easy for me to cross-train. I still fly Minnie ships best, but now I can take almost anything t1 in the game for a spin, fit it mostly with t2, and fight well in it. For an altaholic like me, being Minmatar has made Eve one of only two online games that I've played where I have an actual "main" character and enjoy it.
* Actually in lore terms I'd think that one of our racial weapons should be lasers and we should be focused on armor tanking. Minmatar slaves help build and maintain all of those ships and weapons for the Amarr, and have done so for 700 years, so you'd think that we'd be experts at those. Plus many if not most of the ships and modules we used in the rebellion would have been stolen from the Amarr, and the material support we received from the Gallente probably wasn't either missiles or projectiles since they use neither themselves. It's ironic that things are entirely reversed and many Amarr ship fits use projectiles.
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Aloriana Jacques
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2008.07.01 00:59:00 -
[216]
I don't know anything about Minmatar ships, so bear with me. I can agree with the Naglfar, but I'm unsure of the Nidhoggur.
You said yourself that compared against a similar ship it lacked in several aspects, but did much better in others. Pros v cons, it can't be the same as a compared ship, AND excel in other points as well...then people would complain about the other ship being weaker then this one.
But still, support for the verticaly challenged. - - - Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
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Asterisk Grat
Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.02 14:17:00 -
[217]
Edited by: Asterisk Grat on 02/07/2008 14:17:05
Originally by: Nullshadow Edited by: Nullshadow on 30/06/2008 19:31:56 ...OTOH from a lore perspective I think that the Minmatar capitals should remain weaker overall. The Minmatar have only been free of the Amarr for 125 years now, and as such all of our ship designs are at most a couple of centuries old. By contrast the other races have been working on their ship designs for millenia;
There is always a place for industrial espeinage and stolen trade secrets ;-)
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Kade Jeekin
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.07.02 14:23:00 -
[218]
Agreed --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity --------------------------------------- |
SickSeven
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Posted - 2008.07.02 15:56:00 -
[219]
Edited by: SickSeven on 02/07/2008 15:57:00
Originally by: Nullshadow I agree on the advances front. It's one of the cooler things about the history that is the live time of Eve - we have seen significant progress in technology over the last five years. Even if it is unreasonably fast for real technological discoveries it hooks me, moreso than the arbitrary "this new expansion has x-many new levels!" of most MMOs. It could also be used to justify fixes to the Nagl. Or we can just hope for the apparently-superior Thukker Nagl to be sold to pod pilots. =D
Originally by: SickSeven I'm going to keep saying this: Why is it assumed Minmatar players have to train MORE skills to be competitive??
I can't argue with you, because it is nonsensical. I can see no good justification in either game mechanics terms nor in lore terms* for penalizing Minmatar skill-wise. I would be happy to chime in support of you in a (separate) thread on the insanity that is Minmatar skill requirements, even though I doubt that CCP would ever do a massive overhaul of an entire race. I hinted at my own opinion in the prior post by saying that I thought a (smaller) all-proj dread would have made more sense. ;) My lore-tainted take is that we should have a marginally weaker ship with significant mobility advantages (27 seconds vs. 30 or whatever it is for align does NOT cut it) that takes no more time to train for than other races' capitals - i.e. a unified tank style and a focused weapon slotting and bonuses.
OTOH, having had to master projectiles & missiles & drones & armor tank & shield tank & core skills has made it easy for me to cross-train. I still fly Minnie ships best, but now I can take almost anything t1 in the game for a spin, fit it mostly with t2, and fight well in it. For an altaholic like me, being Minmatar has made Eve one of only two online games that I've played where I have an actual "main" character and enjoy it.
* Actually in lore terms I'd think that one of our racial weapons should be lasers and we should be focused on armor tanking. Minmatar slaves help build and maintain all of those ships and weapons for the Amarr, and have done so for 700 years, so you'd think that we'd be experts at those. Plus many if not most of the ships and modules we used in the rebellion would have been stolen from the Amarr, and the material support we received from the Gallente probably wasn't either missiles or projectiles since they use neither themselves. It's ironic that things are entirely reversed and many Amarr ship fits use projectiles.
I made a thread addressing our skilling issues here.
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Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.04 02:12:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Bane Glorious I was hoping to just fit this into my "Capital Ships Online" topic, but unfortunately that got voted down for the Iceland meeting. However, I will try to push this issue forward for the August meeting.
I would prefer to label it as balance between dreads/carriers within their classes, however.
Thank you Bane, I'm sure you know more than I do about the theory/reality of these ships and I hope all the other CSM members at least attempt to understand things they may of never experienced.
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Atlanticpyro
The Space BorderLine Diabolic Paradox
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Posted - 2008.07.04 05:12:00 -
[221]
/signed
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Saline Ladamire
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Posted - 2008.07.04 05:16:00 -
[222]
The Matar pilots dont seem to have a leg to stand on. |
Sean Graves
Caldari Shipwrights Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.04 14:08:00 -
[223]
agreed
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Vladic Ka
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.04 21:51:00 -
[224]
signed
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Bane Glorious
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Posted - 2008.07.06 22:01:00 -
[225]
This issue passed in the meeting earlier today and will be brought to CCP's attention in August.
woo |
Trig
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Posted - 2008.07.06 22:46:00 -
[226]
Edited by: Trig on 06/07/2008 22:47:21 i support this as a long term naglfar pilot
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Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.06 23:57:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Bane Glorious This issue passed in the meeting earlier today and will be brought to CCP's attention in August.
woo
<3
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Culmen
Allied Tactical Unit Scalar Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.07 01:36:00 -
[228]
/signed
the nidhoggur needs alot of love exspecially in the capacitor department
It simply cant sustain more then one repper and still fit for a tank, even with the armor reps off
its the least survivable, least sustainable, and toughest to fit out. the only thing that it needs to fulfill its capital repper role is a significant boost to capacitor
this would boost its abilities to shield tank but id happily take a reduction in midslots, provided i got more cap _____________________________________________________
Why do i even need a sig? |
ceyriot
Entropians on Vacation
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Posted - 2008.07.07 12:21:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Bad Harlequin Well presented. I hear a lot of "naglfar lol" "well at least it's vertical" but no one's articulated why very well. Thanks!
Support, quotin dis for truth
Faction Store - Killboard |
Anaryel Nayik
Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.08 07:48:00 -
[230]
Support
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Angry Arachnids
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Posted - 2008.07.08 08:56:00 -
[231]
I'm Angry Arachnids and I support this message.
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D0INK
Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.07.08 17:34:00 -
[232]
/signed. -------------------------------------------------- Run. |
Final Kiss
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Posted - 2008.07.08 17:35:00 -
[233]
I'd love to see a complete shift for the Naglfar to have 3 turrets
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Pwett
QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.07.08 19:45:00 -
[234]
I'm going to have to support. Pure minmatar spec who never bothered to train cap skills because ours were so poor. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
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Shade Sharphook
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Posted - 2008.07.19 09:35:00 -
[235]
Great Idea. /signed
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Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2008.07.21 20:27:00 -
[236]
After pounding EFT fits for an ungodly amount of time, the Naglfar has two main problems.
1) DPS needs to be more affected by damage mods. -- There are various ways for doing this, but the initial design of the Naglfar seems to be "it can do many things." Split weapon systems, horrendous training times aside, offer us a unique way to do this. We can 3x + 2x damage mod our separate weapon systems: something no other race can do. However, when we *do* this... our total DPS should more accurately reflect the sacrifice. If we completely fail-fit our tank in order to DPS-fit (the mutual exclusivities as they stand now), then we should be rewarded with more than third-place DPS (*especially* considering the Revelation and Moros both field much better tanks while doing superior DPS).
2) CPU fit is too tight. -- It's understandable to have tight fittings on a Minmatar ship. Really: we've gotten used to it. However, when we're sacrificing whole slots and requiring faction mods in order to fit-for-DPS, that 'tight' is 'too tight.' If we're going to have to use damage mods (as I support above), then give us the natural CPU for BCUIIs and a moderate shield tank (as opposed to the current abject failure). Honestly: the dread is so situation-specific it's not as if we'd gain access to 'overpowered' fittings if we had more CPU. As I recall, they don't exactly make any bigger modules than capital-sized.
Tl;Dr Split weapon systems are a *****, but also awesome. We're one of the few races with the ability to use a full rack of low-slot damage mods (for both projectiles and torpedoes). Go with that, and rebalance risk:reward for a gank-fitted Naglfar to something *sane*. Remember, we have 2x the training of other characters.
have love, willing to give it industrially .CCPGinger |
Redbad
TSL Wolfpack
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Posted - 2008.07.28 15:09:00 -
[237]
Agreed to all points presented by the Op.
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Woulvesbaine
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Posted - 2008.07.28 17:28:00 -
[238]
Yep,
Capitals may be far the easiest category to compare apples v. apples and Minmatar fail here significantly.
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Raquel Trotter
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Posted - 2008.07.28 18:57:00 -
[239]
/agreed
And the rest of the minnie ships are now being nerfed to bring them alongside the capitals as the worst of all the races...
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Rostran Targo
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.07.29 15:31:00 -
[240]
Supported, boost minmatar ffs!
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
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