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IonKnight
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Posted - 2008.05.26 18:00:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Akita T Let's agree that no matter HOW exactly the price for EVE's subscription is calculated. SOMEBODY will complain about it.
If you make it "z USD outside EU and z EUR inside EU" like it is now, EU people will complain about the price difference and buy GTCs with USD from sites that fail to charge the VAT they should be charging.
Sadly this isnt the case we have to pay in EURO's thats the problem really.
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Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2008.05.26 18:11:00 -
[152]
Edited by: Cyberman Mastermind on 26/05/2008 18:12:14
Originally by: Wrayeth Your viewpoint of "everything starts in Euros, then is converted to some other currency" is flawed.
I never said that. I'd be for using the ISK as base currency.
However, no matter the base currency, I think it's quite weird that both USD and EUR have EXACTLY the same numbers. I'd be willing to bet that there would be half as much conspiracy theories if the numbers wouldn't match.
http://www.eve-online.com/faq/faq_08.asp
How on earth or elsewhere can you explain THAT away with "VAT" or any other kind of tax? |
IonKnight
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Posted - 2008.05.26 18:18:00 -
[153]
Edited by: IonKnight on 26/05/2008 18:24:30 Edited by: IonKnight on 26/05/2008 18:21:17 Yea this is the point we have been getting at. It obvious where it came from but does that mean it should still be the standard
131.00 USD = 9,481.52 ISK
131.00 EUR = 14,949.05 ISK
ATM of writing that is the cost difference just thought i put in so we can see the difference in ISK :D This just seems strange to me that even after 5 years of exchange rates changing that EVE have never thought about changing the sub prices. Especially consdering they are nearly losing an 50 % extra profit by still selling in USD. If say for example CPP told us they were going to use one single currency and everyone would be charged to same would u mind if u had to pay a little more so that everyone had the same prices (as i can never see CPP dropping Europe prices as i expect that would mean a massive drop in profits) and also meant this problem would never occur again. But hey this is my two cents just trying to have an intelligent discussion on something that is quite contraversal
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h zebra
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Posted - 2008.05.26 18:34:00 -
[154]
when i bought a year subs last year it was 131.40 euro.. which in our own currency pounds sterling, was ú90. now as my year is nearly up i once again have to pay 131.4 euro. but as the pound has gone down against teh euro i have to pay ú105. a increase of 18%.
this is something americans are not having to deal with. you get to pay in your own currencey and it dosnt matter how its doing against anything else.
so when ccp says they havnt put the sub's up.. you have by making me pay in a currency thats isnt the one i get paid in
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IonKnight
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Posted - 2008.05.26 18:37:00 -
[155]
Edited by: IonKnight on 26/05/2008 18:38:44 Yea exactly sadly theres only two ways around this either make one currency then if ur currency is bad against that currency its ur fault. Or they can say each pay in our own currency and CPP take the profit hit (which no sensible buisness will do sadly).
Would u be happier as an Englishman to pay in USD instead? (as obviously u have alot better exchange rate to that (infact most countries are like that))
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h zebra
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Posted - 2008.05.26 18:56:00 -
[156]
yes, $ would be teh best way for me to pay. as i dont live in a country that has teh euro as currency i dont understand why i can only pay in it
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IonKnight
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Posted - 2008.05.26 19:14:00 -
[157]
Yea does seem a little strange even more for my mate who lives in Iceland and even he pays in euros (to his dimise)
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Tellenta
White-Noise
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Posted - 2008.05.26 19:49:00 -
[158]
Originally by: IonKnight Wow another idiot called Tellenta if u actually read this whole thread instead of just reading like one section u would understand that ur comments were very idiotic
I'm not arguing with you. However I think you are also making a mountain out of a mole hill. This is only my opinion, my point of view is the cost of the game is in fact irrelevant when comparing between Europeans and Americans. This is just as irrelevant as the friendly Australian who pointed out he is paying even less. Your desire to change the monthly cost of an account is befuddling to me to be honest.
I apologize for not biting your bait to argue basic economics, and currency exchange. If your argument was to lower prices for the game for you I applaud your optimism however if the price is going to ever change it will be upward not downward.
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IonKnight
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Posted - 2008.05.26 20:28:00 -
[159]
Edited by: IonKnight on 26/05/2008 20:35:01 Edited by: IonKnight on 26/05/2008 20:29:46
Originally by: Tellenta
Originally by: IonKnight Wow another idiot called Tellenta if u actually read this whole thread instead of just reading like one section u would understand that ur comments were very idiotic
I'm not arguing with you. However I think you are also making a mountain out of a mole hill. This is only my opinion, my point of view is the cost of the game is in fact irrelevant when comparing between Europeans and Americans. This is just as irrelevant as the friendly Australian who pointed out he is paying even less. Your desire to change the monthly cost of an account is befuddling to me to be honest.
I apologize for not biting your bait to argue basic economics, and currency exchange. If your argument was to lower prices for the game for you I applaud your optimism however if the price is going to ever change it will be upward not downward.
Well i just see the system as a little backwards as its the only company i know of that uses two different currencies both at the same price. Lol I just think it seems strange why they have it 1to 1 doesnt make sense to me at all why they still have it i just can't believe that CPP is willing to lose so much money just cause it doesnt want to rock the boat. After all they are here to make money and it just seems strange to me to subsidise one country subs with another. But hey im just dont get how CPP function they have made so many strange desisions in the past and yet nothing seems to change :D. E.g. Why use two different currencies in the first place to me it just seems backwards as it makes it alot harder for CPP to increase profit. More to the point if they only use one currency (USD, EURO whatever) it means that the responsiblity is off of CPP and onto the government of the country u are buying from. But hey i do see that it is a good way too cover costs especially when the market is fluxuation so much as it means they can cover the cost with the other currency.
Hehe btw sorry for barking just had so many people post abusive i just took the tone of urs as abusive aswell :D
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.05.26 20:43:00 -
[160]
Edited by: Akita T on 26/05/2008 20:47:08
Originally by: IonKnight 131.00 USD = 9,481.52 ISK 131.00 EUR = 14,949.05 ISK
Actually, it's (roughly) 9150 ISK from a non-EU customer, and 11540 ISK plus 2820 ISK in deductible VAT from EU customers. Without VAT, EU pays aprox 26% more. With VAT, EU pays almost 57% more. The VAT that CCP charges and pays to the Icelandic fiscal authority can be partially recovered if they make purchases that also include VAT.
Say if they get a total of 3 bil ISK in VAT that has to be paid in one year for 15 bil ISK worth of collected subscriptions from (assumed 40% of accounts) EU subscribers (on top of say, another 15 bil ISK made from the other 60% of non-EU subscribers), for a "balance" of 27 bil ISK total (3 bil ISK paid to VAT authority), then they make 10 bil ISK worth of equipment and service purchases for the company this year, then they can ask for almost 2 bil ISK back from the Icelandic fiscal authority at the end of the fiscal period in question - effectively only "losing" 1 bil ISK in the process, not 3 bil.
1|2|3|4|5 |
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Nielas
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Posted - 2008.05.26 20:56:00 -
[161]
It looks like the only solution to this is for EU players to all cancel their subscriptions in protest for CCP charging them more than the standard subscription rate.
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IonKnight
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Posted - 2008.05.26 21:06:00 -
[162]
Edited by: IonKnight on 26/05/2008 21:09:32
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 26/05/2008 20:47:08
Originally by: IonKnight 131.00 USD = 9,481.52 ISK 131.00 EUR = 14,949.05 ISK
Actually, it's (roughly) 9150 ISK from a non-EU customer, and 11540 ISK plus 2820 ISK in deductible VAT from EU customers. Without VAT, EU pays aprox 26% more. With VAT, EU pays almost 57% more. The VAT that CCP charges and pays to the Icelandic fiscal authority can be partially recovered if they make purchases that also include VAT.
Say if they get a total of 3 bil ISK in VAT that has to be paid in one year for 15 bil ISK worth of collected subscriptions from (assumed 40% of accounts) EU subscribers (on top of say, another 15 bil ISK made from the other 60% of non-EU subscribers), for a "balance" of 27 bil ISK total (3 bil ISK paid to VAT authority), then they make 10 bil ISK worth of equipment and service purchases for the company this year, then they can ask for almost 2 bil ISK back from the Icelandic fiscal authority at the end of the fiscal period in question - effectively only "losing" 1 bil ISK in the process, not 3 bil.
Akita that conversion was simply on the conversion to isk from USD etc. That is how much they make (before tax) on each type of customer. However i expect the 131 USD and EUR have there vat already calculated into it.
LOl so ur saying that actually make more than i thought hehe so that actually get some of the 24% tax back :D. Hehe forgot all about tax ductions :D They actually make more than i thought :D but obviously i doubt EVE makes that kinda of large scale purchase every yea :P.
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Jernau Riggs
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Posted - 2008.05.26 21:25:00 -
[163]
What is funny is that if you look at the front page there are no dev's posting on anything. Looks like management has told them to keep off the forums until this whole thing blows over, and it will blow over and they know this.
I was really surprised to see the dev post in the 22 page long threat about the gtc's, i bet he got his ass kicked for that, and not sure if anyone noticed but there is no blue bar along the edge of that thread, i have not looked but it would not surprise me if his post was deleted
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h zebra
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Posted - 2008.05.26 21:41:00 -
[164]
the sticky about teh gtc changes was pulled down when that post hit about 17 or so pages.. still waiting for some responce but thats just not gonna happen
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Ralle030583
The Wild Hunt Pure.
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Posted - 2008.05.26 21:45:00 -
[165]
Edited by: Ralle030583 on 26/05/2008 21:45:52 i think the point wich some ppl offends is:
you pay in $ = 131$ = 84EUR (whitout VAT, but shouldn't it include 10% US/Canadion VAT?) = 105EUR (would be incl 25% VAT max. in europe, germany has 19%VAT) you pay in EUR = 131EUR (incl. VAT, was incl or?)
and there is the prob. even with the mark VAT or not.. you have 26Ç - 30Ç difference (depends on your european country) and i even dont want write the percent value cause than more whining will start :-P
ofc this difference (or most of) came from the dropping of the Dollar value the last years and thats not included in CCP prizing
(correct me if im wrong in anything above)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- my personal opinion as german who pays huge 30Ç/year more than us ppl:
who cares the few cents each day? i dont have much money but this few euro a year... thats hmm a few beer in the biergarden.... damm you ccp :-P
You need a free Killboard? check: http:\\www.eve-kill.net
Originally by: CCP Sharkbait i have untrashed this bug report and i will take car |
Lorieen
AQ Militis Seprentia
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Posted - 2008.05.26 22:09:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Quelque Chose
*edit* Here's another example: US states love to tax cigarettes, and how much you pay for a pack is largely dependent on your geographical location. Down the street from my house I might pay $2.98; across the river in that other state I might pay $3.15.
Who do I blame for this state of affairs?
A. The tobacco companies. THEY did this. B. The vile bastards who live in that good for nothing state across the river. Do not trust them. C. The government of that state and the taxes they imposed on cigarettes. D. The International Chinese Communist Conspiracy.
Kinda off topic but dear god where the hell do you live? I have friends from many places around the US and none of the pay less then $4.00 for a pack and most are around $4.50 to $4.85 in most states.
I guess its just like this Euro and USD thing... if I want it cheaper I have to go buy it from where it is cheaper, just move, or quit. =p
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Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
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Posted - 2008.05.26 23:24:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Lorieen Kinda off topic but dear god where the hell do you live? I have friends from many places around the US and none of the pay less then $4.00 for a pack and most are around $4.50 to $4.85 in most states.
I live in a bassackwards tobacco- producing state.
"SMOKE UP, JOHNNY!!" ___________________________________________
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IonKnight
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Posted - 2008.05.26 23:27:00 -
[168]
Quote:
ofc this difference (or most of) came from the dropping of the Dollar value the last years and thats not included in CCP prizing
Yea this mainly has happened cause when the game was created the dollar was nearly equal to the euro so this is how this has occured.
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Epidemis
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Posted - 2008.05.27 00:24:00 -
[169]
What purpose would it serve to raise the price for americans? It wouldnt really benefit the europeans.
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Blackjack Turner
Inverted Awareness United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.05.27 01:39:00 -
[170]
Originally by: IonKnight Edited by: IonKnight on 26/05/2008 18:38:44 Yea exactly sadly theres only two ways around this either make one currency then if ur currency is bad against that currency its ur fault. Or they can say each pay in our own currency and CPP take the profit hit (which no sensible buisness will do sadly).
Would u be happier as an Englishman to pay in USD instead? (as obviously u have alot better exchange rate to that (infact most countries are like that))
CCP, not CPP. I have three accounts. Raising the price I pay too high and CCP (not CPP) loses one or two of them. This would be repeated across the board by individuals who, like myself, have multiple accounts.
Somewhere in all of this you claim you could care less one way or the other. Then, why bother posting and taking the obvious stance of raising what Americans pay for a subscription?
And, for the last time - we pay to CCP, not CPP!
http://www.cpp.com/
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2008.05.27 02:08:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Hegbard
Originally by: Wrayeth
Anyone have hard data on this? I seem to recall that the U.S. had an advantage up through some point in 2005.
In 2002 I started working for a Canadian company. I was asked if I wanted to get paid in USD, EUR or CDN (the amount would be fixed the day I signed the contract). At that point 1EUR = 1USD. Like the idiot I am, I asked to be paid in USD. A year later my income was 20% lower. At the end of 2003 it was 0.8EUR = 1USD.
October/November 2002 ...
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
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Jenna Shame
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Posted - 2008.05.27 02:19:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Gamer4liff Well they had to make up for the Marshall plan somehow.
Win but I doubt most these kids get it.
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Ammoina
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.05.27 03:12:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Random Womble Im curious how US players would feel about say subsidising someone elses hobby
We already did. Yours. Back when the dollar was closer to the Euro and CCP was getting less real value per EU subscription than they were getting from USA subscription. So stop your *****ing and go away,
Quote: Can you imagine the outcry if say one group in a society had to pay more for something
Happens all the time. Its called price discrimination. Some industries couldn't survive without it.
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Digital Solaris
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Posted - 2008.05.27 03:28:00 -
[174]
Popcorn for breakfast are best consumed while reading threads like this.
~No, you are not special. I insult everyone. |
Ammoina
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.05.27 03:29:00 -
[175]
This post is going to contain a lot of hypothetical simplified numbers to convey a concept. Bear with them and acknowledge that they're not based on reality. They'll also be currency independent to make life real simple.
CCP Fixed Costs: 1000 CCP Marginal Costs: 0 CCP Euro Income: 1500 CCP American income: 1000
Profit = 1500
People really need to remember here that EVE is an MMO. It's cost structure is a giant fixed cost + tiny marginal cost per customer. Once those fixed costs are paid every single subscription is pretty much nothing but profit. In effect we're all "getting screwed." CCP wants to make the most money possible. So they are attempting to charge what the market can bear.
So lets think about it economically. Lets increase the American subscription in order to match the Euro subscription. In doing so we lose a signifcant amount of American subscribers. CCP American Income* = 500. Their fixed costs don't really change all that much.
CCP Fixed Costs: 950 CCP Marginal Costs: 0 CCP Euro Income: 1500 CCP American income*: 500
CCP Profit: 1050
They've just lost 450 dollars. Now instead of having 1500 units of currency in order to pay their people and improve the game they've only got 1,050.
In other words. It sucks for everyone else still playing EVE. CCP probably have sat down with the real numbers and their predictions and have come to the same conclusion I have. Increasing American subscription costs will cost them money and make it harder for them to improve the game. In other words, European aren't subsidizing anyone. CCP is price discriminating at what the market will bear in order to, hopefully, make the game better for everyone.
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Mahn AlNouhm
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.05.27 03:33:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Quelque Chose
Originally by: IonKnight Edited by: IonKnight on 25/05/2008 23:07:04 Well looks like the forums trolls are about i was hoping for an actual intelligent answer guess thats too hard.
OK, here are the real answers for about the 500 godzillionth time:
1. Crazy European taxes. Because of these taxes, when Europeans pay the same amount as Americans, CCP actually receives less from Europeans.
2. The US, being a huge and insular video game market, has a certain amount of market clout. Americans (right or wrong) inherently have a mistrust of "crazy moon money" (ie, the Euro, the Pound, the Peso, the Yen, you name it) and any effort to charge Americans in straight Euros will inevitably cost you a chunk of the oodles of money to be made here, falling dollar or no. Welcome to capitalism.
3. You could work around item 2 by having the subscription rate fluctuate with currency conversion rates, but that's just going to **** off customers in the same way. "OMG subscription increases every month! Screw that I'ma play WoW instead." Or conversely, if the dollar rebounds US rates would apparently need to be reduced; who the hell does that? Nobody, that's who.
Eventually if the dollar continues to suck eggs (as seems likely) CCP will probably have to do something like raise US rates. Every time you do that though, you lose a certain amount of business. So what you have to do is figure out the magic rate at which lost business doesn't outweigh increased revenue and stick to it; that rate varies depending on the product, but generally speaking once a month isn't it. For a completely discretionary item like a video game, that rate almost certainly isn't more than about once per year.
In short, CCP will make precisely as much money as they can (as modified by how good they are at figuring out how much that is). If the current scheme of things is keeping them fat and happy I'm sure they'll gladly suffer through any number of broken english tirades from you.
If it's any comfort to you (and I'm sure it isn't) CCP is far from being the only European company with worries from the falling dollar. A weak dollar makes it more difficult for anybody to make money exporting to the US, but there's still that pesky business of us being hopelessly addicted to fueling the consumer goods market by buying as much useless plastic crap as we can get our hands on -- that amount still being roughly describable as "a lot" but unfortunately also falling under the purview of "not as much as previously" thanks to rising fuel and food prices and the specter of a recession on the horizon. So basically these companies are damned if they do and damned if they don't right now, and are just going to have to suck it up until things improve. So much so that there are vast legions of people who don't live in the US or even want to trying to figure out how to get the dollar back on its feet.
There. All that stuff is true. Feel better now? I bet not. So keep paying your sub or gimme your stuff.
Umm... QF-freakin-T. I'm glad to see that there people in the Eve universe who aren't completely oblivious. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. . . .
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Joutel
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Posted - 2008.05.27 05:32:00 -
[177]
First, let me thank my European friends for democratic theory, the Statue of Liberty, and a fantastic assortment of cheeses. I love you all. I spent my honeymoon in France and Germany and had a great vacation in London. Of course, I, like most American's, have a European ancestry, so I personally don't get the U.S. versus Them stuff.
Second, I'm sorry if my fellow players around the world feel like they are getting a raw deal in CCP pricing. I have no idea why they do what they do with pricing - everything is a guess until someone from CCP makes a post.
Personally, I'd like to see CCP come out with a lifetime subscription fee, so some people could choose to just pay once and not have to worry about it. But, I guess that's a topic for another thread.
Joe
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Karanth
Eve's Brothers of Destiny FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.27 05:34:00 -
[178]
tl;dr
but to respond to the OP: Europeans pay more than Canadians too.
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Random Womble
Master Miners Intruders.
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Posted - 2008.05.27 13:31:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Ammoina
Originally by: Random Womble Im curious how US players would feel about say subsidising someone elses hobby
We already did. Yours. Back when the dollar was closer to the Euro and CCP was getting less real value per EU subscription than they were getting from USA subscription. So stop your *****ing and go away
As has been pointed out even with VAT included, which can some what be claimed back, the diffrence was minimal and tbh that did not last long plus you were never actually paying more just ccp got slightly less of what was paid so even while you were intheory subsidising things you were not paying any more yourself than we were. The reason for the complaints is the difference now is quite sizable its not just a few % anymore and obviously the whole GTCs being changed does not help. |
Nielas
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Posted - 2008.05.27 13:36:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Random Womble
Originally by: Ammoina
Originally by: Random Womble Im curious how US players would feel about say subsidising someone elses hobby
We already did. Yours. Back when the dollar was closer to the Euro and CCP was getting less real value per EU subscription than they were getting from USA subscription. So stop your *****ing and go away
As has been pointed out even with VAT included, which can some what be claimed back, the diffrence was minimal and tbh that did not last long plus you were never actually paying more just ccp got slightly less of what was paid so even while you were intheory subsidising things you were not paying any more yourself than we were. The reason for the complaints is the difference now is quite sizable its not just a few % anymore and obviously the whole GTCs being changed does not help.
The only solution I see is EU players cancelling their subscriptions to protest having to pay more than the standard rate.
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