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Different Tan
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Posted - 2008.05.27 23:29:00 -
[1]
Eve could never be considered an outright spaceflight simulation, lacking a certain vermisillitude in certain incontestable facts of physics. In areas of trade politics and social interaction however it is not a simulation at all, it is the thing itself albeit to a coarser degree of granularity than sometimes obtains in "real life".
As a tinkerer with game logic, tailor of fittings, soldier of fortune and spy upon my enemies Ive had access to some areas of the human experience which would never normally have been my lot as a ---------.
As a wealthy, older pilot opportunites to betray, to lead, to follow loyally and to make selfish gains are rife in the online universe. Eve is a fantasy, but the choices are real and the consequences affect real people. In these choices the granularity is just as fine as in the real world. Being a good information officer requires the same nuance and keeness of wit, and above all acute memory, that are required in real life pursuits such as the international commerce, military intelligence and professional politics of which I have had some limited experience.
No expansion of the graphical fidelity of eve will improve upon these aspects. Ambulation, if it happens, may augment them. The 'real game' is latent in the human psyche itself. We game our lives, seeking optimum outcomes, hoping for the best and using what limited power we have to achieve them. In life this is a 2 steps forward 3 steps back process, and in Eve it is often the same, however in Eve we inhabit a frontier, devoid of (real)natives and full of riches. On Earth all frontiers have been overrun, the riches appropriated and the natives subdued or murdered en masse. That is the price of an geometrically expanding population.
In New eden population expands at a more or less linear rate, even so, saturation will bring about some of the difficulties we face in real life, namely wars of genuine material need, rather than the past and current wars of greed and honour.
It will be interesting to see if CCP keep up their current "policy" (well they've not done it that often) of adding new regions to consume as the population grows, or if they will let the experiment run on a confined space and see what this level of granularity brings.
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Stakhanov
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.05.28 00:12:00 -
[2]
I concurr
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2008.05.28 01:01:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Different Tan
It will be interesting to see if CCP keep up their current "policy" (well they've not done it that often) of adding new regions to consume as the population grows, or if they will let the experiment run on a confined space and see what this level of granularity brings.
I would really like to see a statement about their current policy and reasons (technical, whatever) for not growing the EVE universe. It's long overdue, EVE just doesn't feel "big" anymore like it did in 2003/2004.
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.05.28 01:25:00 -
[4]
Unless you can't find a 0.0 system with zero pilots in it, it's not too small. Seing how you can still easily find them...
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Sevarus James
Meridian Dynamics Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.05.28 01:43:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Akita T Unless you can't find a 0.0 system with zero pilots in it, it's not too small. Seing how you can still easily find them...
That is a strawman argument akita. MOST of those 0.0 "empty" systems are that way because they are useless in the scheme of things. People do NOT congregate in the gobi desert, so dammit there can't be overpopulation problems on the planet Earth because, well, LOOOK at all that empty space in Death Valley or the Sahara fer pete sakes!
The size of the cluster has shrunk as time has moved on. It used to take forever to move from one region to another (no instas + random warpins to gates). Even the warp to 15 without instas took time. With the warp to zero, as well as the much larger population base in EVE now compared to the beginning, of course its (the cluster) smaller.
Ubuntu 3d Beryl-Linux Desktop+EVE |
ThaDollaGenerale
Endless Destruction Total Eclipse Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.05.28 02:08:00 -
[6]
this reads like one of those nonsensical spam emails you get.
Quote: most important thing for us was total calm. There was no rush. The wind was anchovy to a hungry old gull chasing him. I could be spending all this There's that ditch where Slimy ended up, just two yards from their road.
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Faife
Noctiscion
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Posted - 2008.05.28 02:22:00 -
[7]
the "Eve is too small" people need to get locked in a thread with the "I can't find targets" people and fight it out.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.05.28 08:42:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sevarus James
Originally by: Akita T Unless you can't find a 0.0 system with zero pilots in it, it's not too small.
That is a strawman argument akita. MOST of those 0.0 "empty" systems are that way because they are useless in the scheme of things. People do NOT congregate in the gobi desert, so dammit there can't be overpopulation problems on the planet Earth because, well, LOOOK at all that empty space in Death Valley or the Sahara fer pete sakes!
Actually, no, they're NOT useless. There's no such thing as "useless 0.0". There's only such a thing as "not that useful" 0.0. Even the most pathetic 0.0 system has decent mining opportunities combined with decent ratting income, a LOT better compared to any highsec and just about any lowsec. It's just that people that DO bother to go into 0.0 cherry-pick "the best" systems, those that need the least amount of work to make "habitable", and the most amount of potential profits.
Sorry, your analogy, not even remotely close. Strawman argument, it was not.
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Ishina Fel
Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.05.28 10:37:00 -
[9]
I agree with Akita... there is a LOT of room still in lowsec and zero-sec.
It is, however, not safe space, which is why few people go there. As a result, the safe space can appear crowded in certain areas.
CCP's biggest challenge regarding population growth is to facilitate the proper spreading of the playerbase across the existing space.
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Rhatar Khurin
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2008.05.28 10:44:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Different Tan verisimilitude
congrats for being the first person i've ever seen for using this word (even if i did have to correct it's spelling :P) _ EVE RELATED CONTENT |
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Rei Toai
Faaip De Oiad
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Posted - 2008.05.28 10:55:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Pan Crastus It's long overdue, EVE just doesn't feel "big" anymore like it did in 2003/2004.
welcome to the age of WTZ. ;) __________________________________
I don't want to talk about it I don't want to talk about it I don't want to talk about it I don't want to know. |
Pax Ratlin
Woodland Larch
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Posted - 2008.05.28 11:27:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Different Tan It will be interesting to see if CCP keep up their current "policy" (well they've not done it that often) of adding new regions to consume as the population grows, or if they will let the experiment run on a confined space and see what this level of granularity brings.
They have only added a new region once, as stated in Greyscales Dev Blog 'EA and all that - an overview' and then not as a direct result of overcrowding but as a balancer for EA. Plus in reply to the comments on that dev blog made it clear they didn't see a need for more regions being added http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=771041
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Roy Batty68
Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2008.05.28 11:30:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Different Tan Will CCP expand the universe or let the sandbox theme play out?
CCP will cave to whining. That precedent has been set repeatedly.
There is no real virtual world anything in Eve. There are only levels of noise from the masses demanding their comfort level be continually raised.
When has CCP ever made the playerbase go through a hard evolution?
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Luh Windan
Republic University
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Posted - 2008.05.28 11:36:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Luh Windan on 28/05/2008 11:37:10
Originally by: Rei Toai
Originally by: Pan Crastus It's long overdue, EVE just doesn't feel "big" anymore like it did in 2003/2004.
welcome to the age of WTZ. ;)
yes - because increasing travel time by adding a long boring bit at the end of each leg of a journey would make the game so much better
and of course all you people moaning about it didn't have bookmarks to simulate the effect at all did you?
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Pax Ratlin
Woodland Larch
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Posted - 2008.05.28 11:52:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Roy Batty68 There are only levels of noise from the masses demanding their comfort level be continually raised.
Any service offered by any company in any part of the world has this .... this isn't strange or unusual ... it's the natural human response to anything.
Originally by: Roy Batty68 When has CCP ever made the playerbase go through a hard evolution?
CCP like so many other MMO companies have learned about hard evolutions by others experiences i.e. ... SWG:NGE. History tells us Hard Evolution = large drop in player base and sharp loss of income for the company (oh and large amounts of shame faced directors ;) )
I know we live here, but this is CCP's income ... it's worth remembering that when asking to have the game conform to your own personla vision.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.05.28 11:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Akita T Unless you can't find a 0.0 system with zero pilots in it, it's not too small. Seing how you can still easily find them...
That's just your opinion, not a statement of fact. I point that out, because some people take what you say as fact, even when it isn't, and you seem to like capitalizing on this effect.
It's also an odd opinion, or at least, it's odd as a measuring stick for how big the Eve universe should be.
You want a city, others want a frontier. Eve is clearly becoming a city, albeit after an american model, with more or less densely populated suburbs sprawled out all over the place.
Space is about vastness, emptiness, a huge, black void in between (sci-fi) settlements. That doesn't exist in the Eve experience. In Eve, there is *always* someone around the corner, or there will be, if you spend an few hours there.
I'm going OT now, but someone made a post in Features and Discussion some time ago, about a new, fresh, Eve server, that you could move to. One with no established and functioning market, where everybody would start with nothing but a noob frig. Where you would really have to struggle to even supply yourself with ammo for your ratting cruiser, once someone actually got enough resources together to purchase the BPO, and then manufacture one. Now that would be a game I would love, a race to build from scratch, where resources were tight, where wars would be momentous, even if it was just cruisers and frigs. That would be a frontier. Unlike the current urban environment with people everywhere, where not only battleships and T2 ships are a dime a dozen, but where capital ships (and someday maybe even supercaps) are well on their way to becoming as ubiquitous, in their respective environment.
Of course, any fresh start, would only last for so long, until it again became the same crowded urban sprawl as Eve is now. I have no remedy for that.
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Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2008.05.28 12:00:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Faife the "Eve is too small" people need to get locked in a thread with the "I can't find targets" people and fight it out.
Originally by: Lance Fighter This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route. |
Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2008.05.28 12:02:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 28/05/2008 12:03:26
Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: Akita T Unless you can't find a 0.0 system with zero pilots in it, it's not too small. Seing how you can still easily find them...
That's just your opinion, not a statement of fact. I point that out, because some people take what you say as fact, even when it isn't, and you seem to like capitalizing on this effect.
Like a lecture. Akita likes to remove discussion from debate.
Originally by: Lance Fighter This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route. |
Roy Batty68
Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2008.05.28 12:10:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Luh Windan
yes - because increasing travel time by adding a long boring bit at the end of each leg of a journey would make the game so much better
and of course all you people moaning about it didn't have bookmarks to simulate the effect at all did you?
Thanks for providing an excellent example of how players suck at game design. Ye'old can't see past the end of my nose design methodology. Plus, lets all forget the time when there was no GtG BMs or WTZ. Like how gate travel was originally designed.
And the tired circular arguement of, "everyone had BMs anyway" is a red herring. There was multiple ways of solving the GtG BM issue. WTZ was just one of them. Warp within 12km of a gate or station and butt gets bounced, just like warping to the center of a planet, would be another. That would have rendered those GtG BMs useless.
What they chose though was the path of least resistance. The path of least amount of crying from short sighted players. PvP opportunities suffered for it. Regional markets homogenized due to it. Blob warfare increased thanks to it. The universe feels smaller thanks to it. But, by gawd, no more boring bits for me!!
Most players can not divest themselves from their own selfish interests and think about things from a neutral pov. But CCP prides themselves on listening to their playerbase.
Yeah. That's totally a positive thing...
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Luh Windan
Republic University
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Posted - 2008.05.28 12:29:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Roy Batty68
What they chose though was the path of least resistance. The path of least amount of crying from short sighted players. PvP opportunities suffered for it. Regional markets homogenized due to it. Blob warfare increased thanks to it. The universe feels smaller thanks to it. But, by gawd, no more boring bits for me!!
Most players can not divest themselves from their own selfish interests and think about things from a neutral pov. But CCP prides themselves on listening to their playerbase.
Yeah. That's totally a positive thing...
Yes but I was not here when it was like that.
and to be honest I find it hard to imagine that adding a few seconds on to journey times would do things like make the markets more diverse and all the things you claim if done in reverse. In fact I would be tempted to say they are partly due to larger population - there is always someone willing to go the extra mile for 1sk just as there is always someone will pay 1m extra just to save going next door. It may have had some impact but it was not the only factor.
So - it may not have been the best fix - but nostalgia for the old days when ships where made of wood and you had to paddle for weeks to get from one system to another just makes people sound like old curmudgeons who don't like change. Making space bigger by increasing journey times is just plain silly as well. Perhaps they should remove warp at all and then you would *really* see how big space is.
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