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GHO57
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Posted - 2008.05.30 17:53:00 -
[1]
Well, I fly the tarte for some time now and I find it virtually useless. Tarte can't fit much of a tank, has pathetic optimal(and falloff), it's easily jammed, it's basicaly useles for medium-sized gangs nowadayz with nanoships on the field. NH is underpowered and undertanked, it's slow, range is great, missiles hit good, but in practice it's as useful as a cerberus, but it's slower and less agile. Absolution has the same problems - low DPS, very slow, bad agility and not much tank. Sleipnir is the only Field command which is barely useful, as it's shield tank - can easily be nanoed, has as much DPS as the tarte, better range(yes, it still does great DPS in falloff) and with EMP ammo has the best DPS types for most of the ships it encounters. But even that way it's useful only nanoed. Field commands are easily outperformed by many battleships in terms of DPS and tank, and the slight advantage in speed and agility is almost irelevant, as they are still too slow to fight efectively on many ocations - they are too weak to fight battleships and too slow to fight hacs and etc. So they are pretty useless in my point of view, not considering the sleipnir, cuz it has the shield/speed advantage.
I think I'm not the only one considering the usless of field commands. They are just pimp ships nowadayz, for real performance T1 battleships are on top. And I don't see what really can be done to make the worth, as they cost the price of Tier3 BS. Some more sensor strenght for harder jamming will be good and I think more speed and DPS is a musthave, cus now the dmg dealth by them is closer to HAC's, than to battlehip's. I think they at least deserve to get real T2 resists.
If T2 cruiser worth their price by having tank, DPS and most important - the versatility, which field commands cannot bring. Damnation is pretty useless on battlefield, tarte is basicaly a bit better brutix and not many people fly brutixes today anywayz.
Please, bring the field commands in battle, make them useful.
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Wallimiyama
Cryogenic Consultancy
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Posted - 2008.05.30 20:28:00 -
[2]
un...flippin...believable...
You win the DUH! award. -Are we havin' fun yet? |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.05.30 21:08:00 -
[3]
You're doing it wrong. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
GHO57
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Posted - 2008.05.30 21:32:00 -
[4]
Show me the right way master.
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Boz Well
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Posted - 2008.05.30 21:38:00 -
[5]
I 100% agree. The nighthawk is obviously a piece of crap and completely undertanked! Let's start a petition to buff the NH tank!
This post has my signature!
/signed!!1
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Menellaix
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.30 21:43:00 -
[6]
Failpoasting in failthread.
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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.05.30 21:48:00 -
[7]
Damnation is a fleet command and is very useful - it can be a pretty sweet bait, and can give a resist bonus to rival an EANM at max skills, a 25% reduction on armor rep duration which is a 33% local tank increase, and a 25% reduction in cap cost as well (so same cap/sec for more hp/sec).
Admittedly the current flavour of eve combat - HPfit or nano doesn't work in the command ships favour at all, but they were never meant to output as much dps and tank as much dps, they were meant to be doing a reasonable approximation of this while fielding a gang link (the abso can do this, the tarte needs to lose a turret to do so, so not really worth it, and the NH grid sucks).
A HP buff would be nice, as perhaps would a slight agility buff, but people neglect that you are meant to move in combat, not just sit there and be shot, and in the case of the NH/abso/sleip, you operate outside webrange anyway, so you should utilise your smaller sig and greater manuverability to increase transversal and increase effective dps tanked.
The agility buff in particular (not to the sleip perhaps) would mean that these ships could keep up with roaming HAC gangs, giving them their 'heavy hitter in their gang' role back.
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Gypsio III
Bambooule
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Posted - 2008.05.30 22:16:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Boz Well I 100% agree. The nighthawk is obviously a piece of crap and completely undertanked! Let's start a petition to buff the NH tank!
This post has my signature!
/signed!!1
The funny thing is that you're right, the PVP Nighthawk does have a poor tank.
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Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.05.30 22:36:00 -
[9]
Tbh, I see no reason to fly a Sleipnir when I can just use a Hurricane for small gang combat. Sure, it tanks very weakly in comparison and all that, but I can fit more utility modules (armour tank ftw) and get similar gank to a Sleipnir (or somewhat lower, but not by much, depending on fit).
Nanoing such a big ship which doesn't really have the mids for a web is imo a great way to lose it, we've caught/killed/ransomed such before.
I see no point in the NH at all, and Abso seems to lack a mid really (same issue as the Sleipnir). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
GHO57
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Posted - 2008.05.30 22:52:00 -
[10]
captator, ofc I meant Absolution, as the topic is about field commands. Fleet commands are entirely different story, I love damnation, and Vulture is... monster. But field in their current condition are just pointless. It's a fact that some hacs get similar tank and still good DPS,while keeping a lot more agility in the battle. And if u bring a command in battle u'll expect it to be your primary dmg dealer, but a falcon can neutralize 3 commands with ease. They need at least their sensor strenght to be look up. Bringing a gang module on it means sacrificing cap, poergrid and CPU, and that means less DPS/tank, if u have the proper skills u just bring fleet command with natural bonuses and 3 modules. They have the punch, but the need some extra features to be worth to bring in a fight.
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Kravick Drasari
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Posted - 2008.05.31 06:17:00 -
[11]
Originally by: GHO57 Edited by: GHO57 on 30/05/2008 22:58:53 captator, ofc I meant Absolution, as the topic is about field commands. Fleet commands are entirely different story, I love damnation, and Vulture is... monster. But field in their current condition are just pointless. It's a fact that some hacs get similar tank and still good DPS,while keeping a lot more agility in the battle. And if u bring a command in battle u'll expect it to be your primary dmg dealer, but a falcon can neutralize 3 commands with ease. They need at least their sensor strenght to be look up. Bringing a gang module on it means sacrificing cap, poergrid and CPU, and that means less DPS/tank, if u have the proper skills u just bring fleet command with natural bonuses and 3 modules. They have the punch, but the need some extra features to be worth to bring in a fight.
@Cpt Branco, exactly my point, myrmidon perform similar to tarte, tank closes to Astarte's, DPS is lower, but tarte with it's rediculous range can only gank big slow ships, which usualy can gank your rather then u gank 'em. Harbinger can dish out really nice DPS too, tier2 BCs are closing to Field commands perfromance and it's rediculous.
Command ships are not meant to be what you're expecting them to be. They're a force multiplier. They specialize in increasing the fighting power of everyone else while lending a little bit of damage themselves. The damage output isn't supposed to rival that of battleships. The command ship role is not damage. Its a fleet ship designed to improve the performance of your fleet and have a tank big enough not to get insta popped if primaried. --- My cat Putter approves of this post. Be a Ninja! You know you want too: http://www.animecubed.com/billy/?Kravick |
BiggestT
Fun Inc Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.05.31 06:58:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kravick Drasari
Command ships are not meant to be what you're expecting them to be. They're a force multiplier. They specialize in increasing the fighting power of everyone else while lending a little bit of damage themselves. The damage output isn't supposed to rival that of battleships. The command ship role is not damage. Its a fleet ship designed to improve the performance of your fleet and have a tank big enough not to get insta popped if primaried.
You just described fleet command! why bring a field command when u cld bring a fleet command is what the problem is.. I think the field comand need to have something added to them to make them not just a bit better, but ALOT better than their t1 counterparts, i mean the difference between drake and NH is depressingly small, i just trained for them myself, and i like the NH but it is a bit well..avg.
CCP change field command ships they need love
"The assymetrical horrors of the motherland will rise, the mechanical beasts will depart from the dark, we will not perish, we will not fail. The Reign of the Caldari State is nigh."
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GHO57
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Posted - 2008.05.31 08:40:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kravick Drasari
Command ships are not meant to be what you're expecting them to be. They're a force multiplier. They specialize in increasing the fighting power of everyone else while lending a little bit of damage themselves. The damage output isn't supposed to rival that of battleships. The command ship role is not damage. Its a fleet ship designed to improve the performance of your fleet and have a tank big enough not to get insta popped if primaried.
Mate, can u read? The topic is for FIELD commands, which are useless now. Please, don't talk about what I'm expecting for them, when u have no idea what I'm talkin about whatsoever. If u want gang modules - just get a harbi, myrmidon, drake(lol! - a lot better tank than NH), hurricane.
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vostok
Suns Of Korhal deadspace society
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Posted - 2008.05.31 08:49:00 -
[14]
Edited by: vostok on 31/05/2008 08:51:22 Well aren't you glad you play a game where if you want to fly a battleship instead of a field command you can, HA, lucky you!
Fact is the number of players flying those ships into pvp with often great success generally beg to disagree with you.
I'm guessing you have never seen an Astarte with a mwd on, that little bit of agility makes them haul some ass compared to a BS.
Something also tells me you wont be laughing when you meet the NH with the T2 1300+ dps tank and it wont die.
We could go on but simply enough:
Originally by: James Lyrus You're doing it wrong.
edit:
Originally by: GHO57
Originally by: Kravick Drasari
Command ships are not meant to be what you're expecting them to be. They're a force multiplier. They specialize in increasing the fighting power of everyone else while lending a little bit of damage themselves. The damage output isn't supposed to rival that of battleships. The command ship role is not damage. Its a fleet ship designed to improve the performance of your fleet and have a tank big enough not to get insta popped if primaried.
Mate, can u read? The topic is for FIELD commands, which are useless now. Please, don't talk about what I'm expecting for them, when u have no idea what I'm talkin about whatsoever. If u want gang modules - just get a harbi, myrmidon, drake(lol! - a lot better tank than NH), hurricane.
Sorry I may have been a bit too generous in my earlier statements, your an idiot and you have little to no right telling people what to do!
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Gypsio III
Bambooule
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Posted - 2008.05.31 09:40:00 -
[15]
Quote: Something also tells me you wont be laughing when you meet the NH with the T2 1300+ dps tank and it wont die.
Of course I'll be laughing, and so will everyone else, at the fool bringing a PVE-fit Nighthawk into PVP. Like a full passive Drake, it's a useless brick, offering nothing to your gang and will either survive having minimal influence on your gang's victory, or be left until last and then casually dispatched.
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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.05.31 10:13:00 -
[16]
I think that areas that could be buffed for field commands are:
1) agility (give them an advantage over their t1 variants and/or BS, so there is incentive to pilot them around in a fight).
2) sensor strength/speed (give them an advantage against ewar (they don't exactly have lots of utility mids to make this overpowered)
3) perhaps a smaller scale buff similar to what a titan can offer, eg abso gives you 10% cap capacity (2% per level), tarte gives you 10% armor, NH 10% shield, sleip 10% smaller sig radius
(the fact that in small gangs the bonuses of the abso and sleip are not as obviously useful is negated by the fact that they can both fit a warefare link very easily, whereas the tarte and NH cannot)
further thoughts/suggestions? I do agree in principle to the thread though
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chrisss0r
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Posted - 2008.05.31 10:34:00 -
[17]
Originally by: GHO57 Edited by: GHO57 on 30/05/2008 22:22:07 Sleipnir is the only Field command which is barely useful, as it's shield tank - can easily be nanoed, has as much DPS as the tarte, better range(yes, it still does great DPS in falloff) and with EMP ammo has the best DPS types for most of the ships it encounters.
sleipnirs dmg is not close to that of the astarte. u fail
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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.05.31 10:45:00 -
[18]
take it into hail range with 3 gyros and a rack of 425mms and damage drones and it is doing over 800 dps, soo you are wrong, it can, it is just most pilots design their ships to function outside webrange.
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chrisss0r
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Posted - 2008.05.31 10:54:00 -
[19]
3 magstabs, void, heavy neutron blasters II , dmg drones and ur astarte goes to 1050 dps. so you obviously fail
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GHO57
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Posted - 2008.05.31 11:32:00 -
[20]
Originally by: vostok Edited by: vostok on 31/05/2008 08:51:22 Well aren't you glad you play a game where if you want to fly a battleship instead of a field command you can, HA, lucky you!
Fact is the number of players flying those ships into pvp with often great success generally beg to disagree with you.
I'm guessing you have never seen an Astarte with a mwd on, that little bit of agility makes them haul some ass compared to a BS.
Something also tells me you wont be laughing when you meet the NH with the T2 1300+ dps tank and it wont die.
My tarte goes 1250 A hype without armor rigs goes 1407, it still has more DPS, more range and more tank. The whole univerce will be laughting when they see the loss of so morronic fitted NH. And will die, that's for sure.
So your post - epic fail.
Originally by: chrisss0r 3 magstabs, void, heavy neutron blasters II , dmg drones and ur astarte goes to 1050 dps. so you obviously fail
It is not a realistic setup, it's a suicide ship and u will die to every ishtar in about a minute. So u fail too.
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Celes Tenebrae
Cruoris Seraphim Project Alice.
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Posted - 2008.05.31 11:32:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Celes Tenebrae on 31/05/2008 11:33:00
Originally by: Captator
3) perhaps a smaller scale buff similar to what a titan can offer, eg abso gives you 10% cap capacity (2% per level), tarte gives you 10% armor, NH 10% shield, sleip 10% smaller sig radius
I'd disagree with this personally, since we've already got something like this. Anyone can train the basic leadership skills to 5 for a 10% buff to some useful atts, and those work from any assigned gang booster. The advanced skills and gang link mods are only really applicable to fleet commands since fitting them on a field command will gimp the set up.
Of course, changing links so they wont gimp field command setups leaves fleet commands laregly useless again so personally I don't think that's much of a solution.
I think the issue with field commands is mainly that they're hurting for a role since tier 2 BCs came along, as these do a good part of what field commands do and are a lot more cost effective. A lot of people flying Harbs over Absos is an indicator here, why? Because a Harb will do almost as much dps and costs a lot less. No, it can't tank, but who flies an absolution solo anyway? (Okay, I'm sure someone does, I wouldn't myself though)
Then there's tier 1 BS, which outperform CS entirely. Yeah, it's a different class of ship and I don't want to be seen as comparing apples to oranges but the numbers speak for themselves. I can fit out a plated megapulse geddon for the same price as an absolution hull. It'll do more damage, it'll tank a lot passively, and while it's slower than a CS - CS dont exactly handle like sportscars anyway so its not as if it matters much.
More agilty would be nice for commands perhaps, but at the moment I don't think there's a huge reason to fly a field command unless you have isk and like the look and feel of the ship.
Khanid Canonical Resources |
chrisss0r
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Posted - 2008.05.31 11:37:00 -
[22]
Originally by: GHO57
It is not a realistic setup, it's a suicide ship and u will die to every ishtar in about a minute. So u fail too.
oh yeah cause i came up with the hail point blank range bull****. suuuuuure
command ships do almost bs dmg with MEDIUM GUNS thats their advantage and if u don't see it u just don't have to use them. field commands are fine.
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Paeniteo
Synthetic Frontiers
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Posted - 2008.05.31 12:12:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Paeniteo on 31/05/2008 12:12:47 Personally I had been training for the Absolution for a long time, but when I considered costs, I couldn't justify flying it over the Armageddon and Harbingers I could get for the same price.
Sure, people have great success flying the Absolution. It's not a bad ship. People have great success flying the Succubus too, but that doesn't mean it's worth the extra dough unless you're a multi billionaire.
I'm no PvP guru, but I know a few. I've had yet to hear anyone justify why the Absolution is worth using over the several competitive ships which are significantly cheaper.
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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.05.31 12:19:00 -
[24]
Difference is If I fit hail I do that amount of dps while having a very nice shield buffer or an unsustainable burst tank. If I fit barrage it gets about 700 dps.
An astarte with a similar HP tank or a rep tank does less dps with null, at a smaller range (comparable ammo types), due to it not having the slots for damage mods without sacrificing a lot of its survivability, so in reality, at a given range, with a balanced fit, the sleipnir does outdamage the astarte, so I think you fail, and should get on topic or STFU.
So far it seems general consensus is that field commands badly need an agility buff so they are at least more agile than BS, as they don't have any major advantage over them, especially factoring in their increased cost, and cost to lose due to insurance.
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Hannobaal
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.31 12:21:00 -
[25]
This:
Originally by: James Lyrus You're doing it wrong.
And this:
Originally by: Menellaix Failpoasting in failthread.
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Darth Kenzie
Ganja Labs Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.31 14:56:00 -
[26]
I agree with those that have observed that Feild comand ships lost their role to tier2 bc's.
I was looking over my BC/Commandships setups and basicly the difference between my harbinger and my absolution are 38k effective hit points on my gank set ups and 36k effective hp on my tank set ups... (since i don't have comandship5 and have great drone skills I do slightly more dps with the harbinger).
I never undock my absoultion except to shoot at other corpm8's comandships (which are only undocked for duels as well) because I can insure the harbinger and do everything with it I can do with teh Absoultion (except win comandship duels).
If we want fleid CS to be useful either they need a new role, a clear advantage over teir2 bc's, or a shift in pvp trends so that their resiliance maters... in a 10+ man gang the tank a cs can run counts for ****. ------- I am the King of Rome and above grammar. |
slothe
Murky Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.31 15:13:00 -
[27]
i think your post fails as soon as you suggest the astarte / nh / absolution cant fit a great tank. they can.
the post is however correct to state they have very little use in pvpnow nano gangs are the fotm.
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Furb Killer
The Peacekeeper Core
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Posted - 2008.05.31 15:30:00 -
[28]
Afaik both command ships are intended as force multiplier. Not just fleet command ships.
However field command ships are supposed for small gang work, so you also want them to deal damage themselves. Fleet command ships work better as force multiplier and are supposed to stay alive. Damage dealing isnt important since you are in a fleet.
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Gypsio III
Bambooule
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Posted - 2008.05.31 15:58:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 31/05/2008 15:58:07
Quote: i think your post fails as soon as you suggest the astarte / nh / absolution cant fit a great tank. they can.
I don't know about the Astarte or Absolution, but you cannot fit a great tank on a PVP-fit Nighthawk. You just don't have the PG or midslots.
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Darth Kenzie
Ganja Labs Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.31 16:30:00 -
[30]
Well you can fit a very nice theory tank on the absolution... problems tend to crop up when someone is smart enough to nuet the amarr ship. I fly a curse... and I tend to nuet amarr boats 1st... I imagine others do as well. ------- I am the King of Rome and above grammar. |
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