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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
246
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Posted - 2012.03.08 19:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
Refitting ships in combat allows a ship to fit for max gank when not primaried, and max tank when under assault. Removing the ability to refit a capital ship in the middle of battle really forces the pilot to chose between gank or tank, rather than having the "best of both worlds".
All ships should still be able to refit at a POS.
Please discuss how this will negatively or positively impact the game... |
Velicitia
Open Designs
753
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Posted - 2012.03.08 19:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
it'll negatively impact the game because we won't be able to get any more videos of people somehow pulling off defending a POS or something with vastly inferior numbers.
As for actually having an effect on the gameplay as a whole, I'm ambivalent on it. Both sides of the argument have some valid points (beyond the limited points you've presented). |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
128
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Posted - 2012.03.08 19:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
NOPE!
Make it so its impossible to refit while being targeted by anything. Not only does this solve the problem of primaried supercaps doing this, it also does the same for all other sizes of ship, while allowing all classes of ship to make use of each other's SMAs while out of combat. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
246
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Posted - 2012.03.08 19:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:NOPE!
Make it so its impossible to refit while being targeted by anything. Not only does this solve the problem of primaried supercaps doing this, it also does the same for all other sizes of ship, while allowing all classes of ship to make use of each other's SMAs while out of combat.
I like your idea....
How about scooping ships into the SMA? Would you make that also impossible if targeted by anything? |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
130
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Posted - 2012.03.08 19:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:NOPE!
Make it so its impossible to refit while being targeted by anything. Not only does this solve the problem of primaried supercaps doing this, it also does the same for all other sizes of ship, while allowing all classes of ship to make use of each other's SMAs while out of combat. I like your idea.... How about scooping ships into the SMA? Would you make that also impossible if targeted by anything?
No, mostly because I can't think of a way scooping ships would help turn the tide of a fight in a gimmicky and exploity way? |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
246
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Posted - 2012.03.08 20:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:NOPE!
Make it so its impossible to refit while being targeted by anything. Not only does this solve the problem of primaried supercaps doing this, it also does the same for all other sizes of ship, while allowing all classes of ship to make use of each other's SMAs while out of combat. I like your idea.... How about scooping ships into the SMA? Would you make that also impossible if targeted by anything? No, mostly because I can't think of a way scooping ships would help turn the tide of a fight in a gimmicky and exploity way?
Scooping ships into an Orca/Carrier and then docking or gating into hisec is an unconventional means to save a ship... That's why I mentioned it... |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
132
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Posted - 2012.03.08 20:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:NOPE!
Make it so its impossible to refit while being targeted by anything. Not only does this solve the problem of primaried supercaps doing this, it also does the same for all other sizes of ship, while allowing all classes of ship to make use of each other's SMAs while out of combat. I like your idea.... How about scooping ships into the SMA? Would you make that also impossible if targeted by anything? No, mostly because I can't think of a way scooping ships would help turn the tide of a fight in a gimmicky and exploity way? Scooping ships into an Orca/Carrier and then docking or gating into hisec is an unconventional means to save a ship... That's why I mentioned it...
Huh-- I've never seen that happen. I guess you could make ships un-scoopable while being targeted (much like the way they can't be boarded), but I wouldn't say that big ships shouldn't be able to scoop while THEY are locked... if that makes sense. |
Feligast
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1154
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Posted - 2012.03.08 21:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
Only thing I might change from the OP is limit the fitting services to dockable ships. Thus carriers and dreads can still refit (which I don't feel is a big issue), while supers can't.
Also no problem with keeping locked ships from refitting.. well, no. Aggressed ships, maybe not merely locked. |
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
108
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Posted - 2012.03.08 22:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
Feligast wrote:Only thing I might change from the OP is limit the fitting services to dockable ships. Thus carriers and dreads can still refit (which I don't feel is a big issue), while supers can't.
Also no problem with keeping locked ships from refitting.. well, no. Aggressed ships, maybe not merely locked. Yeah, normal caps refitting in space is not really an issue, and infact is something that allows a fleet that is vastly out numbered to pull off spectacular victories - which is good.
not sure if i like the aggressed thing either, as that is pretty much the same as no refitting if locked, which removes a critical aspect of small(ish) gang warfare.
tl;dr, make it so supercaps can only refit from SMAs, keep everything else the same. Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. |
Sephiroth CloneIIV
Vitriol Ventures BLACK-MARK
56
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Posted - 2012.03.08 22:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
in addition to a balance issue it brings a bit of realism, you should have to dock inside the ship to be able to refit with it. (unless the supers and titans have retractable arms that come out to swap parts on another titan).
A titanic ship shouldn't be something that can be rapidly refit.
Being that titans and supers can't dock in stations that would leave a pos.
One thought, because titans are so F-ing huge, allow regular capitals to refit, and dock with them (docking bay that is proportional large to let one or two dock). That would give them a additional role to help fleets be mobile and supplied. Making them more of a flagship and capital of the capitals.
Smaller things should be able to refit with larger things that have a bay, but not things of equal size. |
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Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
134
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Posted - 2012.03.08 23:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
I hate the idea of no-refits based on aggression (again, you could fight someone/shoot a thing, stop shooting a thing, warp to a safe / pos / whatever and STILL not be able to refit for 15 minutes. This is just stupid if you ask me).
Keep in mind the problem here is ships refitting during combat. Why you would want to "allow regular caps to refit during combat so they can fight successfully against overwhelming odds" but then not allow supercaps to do the same thing is beyond me. When did combat refitting becomes "a central part of small-gang warfare?" Come up with a mechanic (like the locking-based one) that creates a set of rules that all spaceships follow, then run with it.
The locking restriction is good because it: 1) Doesn't force people to wait 15 minutes to refit, often for no reason whatsoever 2) Allows all kinds of out-of-combat flexibility regarding fitting (you can still refit at a safe, a POS without an SMA, wherever) 3) Prevents the kind of in-combat idiocy that occurs under current mechanics
I really hate the idea of limiting what can be done OUTSIDE combat scenarios because I don't like the idea of running up against "you can't do that, just because" type restrictions. They're dumb and irritating and just make the game more tedious to play. |
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
108
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Posted - 2012.03.09 00:00:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:I hate the idea of no-refits based on aggression (again, you could fight someone/shoot a thing, stop shooting a thing, warp to a safe / pos / whatever and STILL not be able to refit for 15 minutes. This is just stupid if you ask me).
Keep in mind the problem here is ships refitting during combat. Why you would want to "allow regular caps to refit during combat so they can fight successfully against overwhelming odds" but then not allow supercaps to do the same thing is beyond me. When did combat refitting becomes "a central part of small-gang warfare?" Come up with a mechanic (like the locking-based one) that creates a set of rules that all spaceships follow, then run with it.
The locking restriction is good because it: 1) Doesn't force people to wait 15 minutes to refit, often for no reason whatsoever 2) Allows all kinds of out-of-combat flexibility regarding fitting (you can still refit at a safe, a POS without an SMA, wherever) 3) Prevents the kind of in-combat idiocy that occurs under current mechanics
I really hate the idea of limiting what can be done OUTSIDE combat scenarios because I don't like the idea of running up against "you can't do that, just because" type restrictions. They're dumb and irritating and just make the game more tedious to play. Not allowing supers, mainly titans, to refit from other ships is one way to tackle the titan tracking issue, as full tracking titans are paper thin (relatively speaking), yet can refit to full brick tank nearly instantly when primed.
Allowing regular caps, such as carriers, to refit mid combat allows skilled pilots to overcome huge numerical disadvantages (ie the other guys have more subcaps and more caps) while not being game breaking (but as someone else already suggested, perhaps only let caps refit from MOMs and titans).
I also think the aggression thing was more about no refits while red-boxed, not no refits while you have the 15 min timer.
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
136
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Posted - 2012.03.09 05:24:00 -
[13] - Quote
Grey Azorria wrote: Not allowing supers, mainly titans, to refit from other ships is one way to tackle the titan tracking issue, as full tracking titans are paper thin (relatively speaking), yet can refit to full brick tank nearly instantly when primed.
This isn't an effective argument against my proposal (that ships shouldn't be able to refit while targeted). Here's why:
- Titan fits tracking fit, is paper thin - Titan goes into a fleet fight - Titan gets primaried and starts taking damage - Titan CANT REFIT BECAUSE IT IS BEING SHOT AT (which implies that it is targeted, in case that's a big logical leap)
Problem solved. You don't need to stop supercaps from refitting off of cap/supercap SMA services, you just need to stop it IN COMBAT.
Grey Azorria wrote: Allowing regular caps, such as carriers, to refit mid combat allows skilled pilots to overcome huge numerical disadvantages (ie the other guys have more subcaps and more caps) while not being game breaking (but as someone else already suggested, perhaps only let caps refit from MOMs and titans).
If carriers get to do it, why don't supercarriers? Maybe allowing people to do mid-fight refitting gimmickry is just a bad idea. You realize this is exactly what the SC / Titan pilots would say about their ships, right? "No, we must be able to combat-refit, it is NECESSARY TO FIGHT THE BLOBBERS, you see!"
Grey Azorria wrote: I also think the aggression thing was more about no refits while red-boxed, not no refits while you have the 15 min timer.
You mean like if you couldn't refit while being targeted? |
Buzzy Warstl
Huron Syndicate
51
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Posted - 2012.03.09 13:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:
Make it so its impossible to refit while being targeted by anything. Not only does this solve the problem of primaried supercaps doing this, it also does the same for all other sizes of ship, while allowing all classes of ship to make use of each other's SMAs while out of combat.
Once the battle has started, it's too late to change your armor. |
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