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[Issue] Buff Large Autocannons (especially Dual 650mms and 800mms)

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Author	Topic
Bane Glorious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.31 23:21:00 - [1] Title says it all, really; battleship-sized autocannons are a bit lacking when compared to pulse lasers and blasters when used on Minmatar battleships (Tempest and Maelstrom in particular, but not exclusively). This basically gimps an entire line of battleships. If you show support for this thread, it means that the CSM will bring up this issue to CCP and propose possible solutions, if they aren't already aware of this problem. Possible solutions would include increasing autocannon range or damage, grounded from evidence based on DPS graphs, fittings analysis, and input from players like you. So yeah, give the thumbs up if you think Minmatar BS need a little help.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.01 00:23:00 - [2] I've just looked at all the numbers to see if you have a point, and I'm not sure that you do. Blasters do the highest DPS at the shortest range, with middling tracking and fitting requirements. Pulse lasers have the longest range, middle DPS, but terrible tracking and fitting requirements. Autocannons track a bit better than blasters, are a bit easier to fit, but do the lowest DPS of the group. The easiest comparison is between the unnamed T1 biggest gun of each class(neutron, mega, and 800). They've all got the same ROF, which makes them a lot easier to compare directly. The damage mods are 3.5, 3, and 2.695, meaning that the autocannon does 77% of the damage of a blaster. It's got 2 km less optimal and 6 km more falloff, meaning only a marginal increase in range. It tracks marginally worse. It uses 250 less grid and 16 less CPU, which is actually significant, as well as using no capacitor, which is nice(especially when facing cap warfare). But these aren't worth giving up a quarter of your DPS for, as a rule. In fact, a Maelstrom fitting 800mm's versus neutrons will get less damage from the autocannons using T1 ammo, and only about 3% more with T2 ammo(with all-V skills and 8x T2 guns, it gets 450 DPS with antimatter, 423 with EMP, 539 with Hail, and 525 with Void). This is a ship with a projectile bonus, and the hybrid is still doing almost identical damage. The pulse laser comparison is less direct, since the numbers don't line up nearly so well. The autocannon does 90% of the DPS, tracks 28% better, has significantly less range(4+16 km vs 20+8), and takes 500 grid and 11 CPU less. There's no Minmatar ship that does better with pulses than autocannons. And of course, pulse lasers are pigs for capacitor(5.3 cap/s per gun with multi, fully skilled), whereas autocannons use none. All that said, there's also the fact that the races are optimized a bit differently. Blasters are supposed to be the best short-ranged weapon type - no ship can do DPS as well as a Gallentean blaster boat, especially once you factor in the plus-sized drone bays. And that's intentional, and highly unlikely to change - it's part of racial balance, not just balance between different weapon types. Blasters do ludicrous DPS, but they have infinitesimal range, take cap, and can't change damage type. Pulses have good range and middling damage, but they take a lot of cap, can't change damage type(generally doing the worst type, at that), and aren't as good close-in due to their lack of tracking. tl;dr = Autocannons do crappy DPS, but they aren't as bad as they look. The rest of the difference can be chalked up to the fact that they're supposed to be bad. Bane, I see where you're coming from here, but I'm afraid I can't agree. When they knock 25% off the speed of Minmatar ships, they can feel free to add 25% to their autocannon DPS. Until then, I'll let racial balancing take its natural course. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Tojus Illuminati State War Academy	Posted - 2008.06.01 00:40:00 - [3] Willing to give a thumbs up on the conditional that an explanation is given as to cap usage - Blasters/Pulses do more dps, but also use cap. I agree minnie BS need some help, but at the same time I wouldn't want CCP to create a close range monster where autos suddenly have huge DPS with no drawbacks.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.01 05:49:00 - [4] Edited by: Goumindong on 01/06/2008 05:50:23 Originally by: Bane Glorious So yeah, give the thumbs up if you think Minmatar BS need a little help. The issue is neither Minmatar BS nor is it Large Autocannons. Two of the Minmatar BS are perfectly fine in their current iterations when using Autocannons[The Maelstrom and Typhoon]. Booting those will give an unnecessary boost to both those two ships which need nothing as well as may impact the balance of other ships(as autocannons are the near universal choice of supplementary/unbonused turret) The problem is only in the tempest and only due to the Tempest not being properly engineered to deal with the inherent problems of low optimal high falloff weapns. That is, Large Autocannons are to be used within a tight optimal window, and are fit on a ship class which is heavy and cumbersome, this makes it take more time for the ship to achieve that tight window which reduces its effectiveness. Boosting the weapons directly changes the racial characteristics towards a more homogeneous form, changing the ships to be less heavy and cumbersome pushes out smaller ships as the larger one hedges out the "agility and speed" niche filled by smaller ones. You should not bring this issue to CCP.
Natalia Kovac Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.06.01 16:14:00 - [5] Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 01/06/2008 16:16:19 Hey, hey Goumidong. Shut it. We know you wouldn't like this change as it's not buffing your precious Amarr.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2008.06.01 16:22:00 - [6] Actually I find large autocannons to perform perfectly fine. Them not needing cap is a real bonus in close quarters, which nicely offsets the somewhat weaker dps. Not to mention them stretching out nicely into medium range. Otoh large (and medium) arties need help badly, as them not using cap is relatively inconsequential, but their dps is teh suck and their 'variable damage type' advantage is something of a joke too. Make suicide ganking more difficult!
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.01 16:28:00 - [7] Originally by: Natalia Kovac Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 01/06/2008 16:16:19 Hey, hey Goumidong. Shut it. We know you wouldn't like this change as it's not buffing your precious Amarr. His suggested fix was buffing the Tempest to be quicker and more agile. How are you interpreting that as mindless Amarrian partisanship? ------------------ Fix the forums!
xRazoRx The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.06.01 19:53:00 - [8] 464 dps with t2 ammo on a ship with double dps bonus and a gyrostab isnt fun :( And what about aries?
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.01 19:59:00 - [9] Gouming, you've gotten better over the past few weeks but you're still no where close to bane. Shut up and get out.
Leather xRebelx The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.06.01 20:10:00 - [10] i support the op acs should get some more damage \o/

Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.01 20:41:00 - [11] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Natalia Kovac Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 01/06/2008 16:16:19 Hey, hey Goumidong. Shut it. We know you wouldn't like this change as it's not buffing your precious Amarr. His suggested fix was buffing the Tempest to be quicker and more agile. How are you interpreting that as mindless Amarrian partisanship? Actually its 100 cube bandwidth, 300 cube bay that I am more pushing for. The Phoon and Maelstrom have been engineered properly and are fine ships when using AC's. One of these will use only ACs in its high slots. So clearly there isn't a problem with the weapons. And if there is it means you have to nerf the phoon and the Maelstrom in your quest to boost the tempest. Its a lot easier to just boost the tempest.
xRazoRx The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.06.01 21:13:00 - [12] Originally by: Goumindong The Phoon and Maelstrom have been engineered properly and are fine ships when using AC's. Phoon gets only ~200 dps from ACs. Doesnt look like a minnie ship to me.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.01 21:22:00 - [13] Originally by: xRazoRx Phoon gets only ~200 dps from ACs. Doesnt look like a minnie ship to me. The Typhoon has more unique weapon systems than any other ship in the game - it uses guns, missiles, and drones as primary sources of damage. Only the Naglfar even comes close to that status, and even then the drones are a lot less relevant. As such, it's probably the worst battleship in the game, since it's the only one whose bonuses help it so little. But my Typhoon hatred aside, it's not supposed to do obscene AC damage, since it also gets 300 DPS from drones and 300 DPS from torpedoes. 200 AC DPS is hardly the problem. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Marn Prestoc The Black Mamba's	Posted - 2008.06.01 22:34:00 - [14] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto tl;dr = Autocannons do crappy DPS, but they aren't as bad as they look. The rest of the difference can be chalked up to the fact that they're supposed to be bad. Bane, I see where you're coming from here, but I'm afraid I can't agree. When they knock 25% off the speed of Minmatar ships, they can feel free to add 25% to their autocannon DPS. Until then, I'll let racial balancing take its natural course. So what do you see the role of a Battleship being if you think its acceptable to do crappy DPS? Its also a myth that minmatar BS (that rely on AC's) have a speed/agility advantage. The Tempest is barely any quicker than a Hyperion with the same mass and agility. Maelstrom is heavy and slow and nothing like a minmatar BS. Typhoon doesn't need AC's, it relys on Torps and Drones. Chalked up they're supposed to be bad?!?! WTF, nothing in EVE is meant to be bad or there's no point using it! They're meant to perform equally through different methods and quite simply they don't. Its more than AC's, its the ammo's. We're a long way from when EMP was a great ammo with active hardeners being the only real way to tank. Nevermind Hail that makes AC's have less range than blasters. Of course the end performance is important so relys on the ship hull a lot: Maelstrom is totally not minmatar in style and limited to active tanking. Hides AC damage as it can fit 3 gyros. Tempest relys a lot on base damage due to slot layout meaning limited damage modules and for a ship woth ROF and DMG bonus its rubbish. Same mass and agility as Hyperion/Megathron and barely anymore speed. Typhoon relys on Torps and Drones and only has one bonus effectively as 1st bonus for 4 weapons and 2nd bonus for 4 weapons where other ships have 1 bonus for 8 weapons. At least it has minmatar speed, mass and sig even though the nanophoon days are long gone except for bumping. TL;DR: Tweak AC's themselves a bit (such as falloff and falloff per tier). Fix ammo's that no longer have the benifit they were given lower damage for and hail that sucks with optimal and falloff penalty. -
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.01 22:56:00 - [15] "We can ignore the quality of autocannons on the Maelstrom because it it is slow and sluggish" Man what?
Kaylana Syi Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.01 23:37:00 - [16] I approve this message! Team Minmatar
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.02 00:48:00 - [17] Originally by: Marn Prestoc So what do you see the role of a Battleship being if you think its acceptable to do crappy DPS? Minmatar battleships, PvP fit(no tackle, T2 gear, no rigs, faction/T2 ammo), all level V skills: Maelstrom: 1144 DPS dealt, 720 DPS tanked, 68k effective HP, 1042 m/s Tempest: 1121 DPS dealt, 399 DPS tanked, 60k effective HP, 1358 m/s Typhoon: 917 DPS dealt, 211 DPS tanked, 68k effective HP, 1453 m/s (also, better scan resolution than a Vagabond, since it's got room for 2x Sensor Booster II) They're only low DPS in comparison to other battleships, they still do more damage than any sub-battleship save an Astarte. Originally by: Marn Prestoc Its also a myth that minmatar BS (that rely on AC's) have a speed/agility advantage. The Tempest is barely any quicker than a Hyperion with the same mass and agility. Maelstrom is heavy and slow and nothing like a minmatar BS. Typhoon doesn't need AC's, it relys on Torps and Drones. Tempest: 1358 m/s. Hyperion: 1198 m/s. They have the same align time, but the Pest is still 13% faster. And that's comparing it to Gallente, who are the second-fastest race. Look at an Abaddon - it goes 984 m/s, meaning the Pest is 38% faster at linear speed, and it aligns 10% faster too. Originally by: Marn Prestoc Chalked up they're supposed to be bad?!?! WTF, nothing in EVE is meant to be bad or there's no point using it! They're meant to perform equally through different methods and quite simply they don't. If nothing in Eve is bad, then nothing is good either. Quality is relative. And what I said was that the weapon system was supposed to be bad, not that the ships using it are. A Tempest can't beat your face in as well as a Dominix, or shoot you from as far away as a Rokh, but it's faster than either, giving it the ability to disengage from a fight it can't win(and that's before you nano-fit it). An autocannon doesn't measure up to a blaster, but that doesn't mean an autocannon-fit ship is worse than a blaster-fit ship. Originally by: Marn Prestoc Its more than AC's, its the ammo's. We're a long way from when EMP was a great ammo with active hardeners being the only real way to tank. Nevermind Hail that makes AC's have less range than blasters. Neutron Blaster Cannon II with Void = 6.8 km optimal, 6.3 km falloff. 800mm Repeating Artillery II with Hail = 3 km optimal, 10 km falloff. Their T2 ammo ranges match up at one falloff almost exactly, meaning that the blaster is better-ranged from 3-13 km, and the autocannon is better-ranged from 13-23 km. As for the ammos, you can fit faction ammo in an autocannon, deal almost as much damage as the Hail, be able to change damage type if you see the need to do so, and your range beats those piddly blasters any day. Originally by: Marn Prestoc Of course the end performance is important so relys on the ship hull a lot: Maelstrom is totally not minmatar in style and limited to active tanking. Hides AC damage as it can fit 3 gyros. Tempest relys a lot on base damage due to slot layout meaning limited damage modules and for a ship woth ROF and DMG bonus its rubbish. Same mass and agility as Hyperion/Megathron and barely anymore speed. Typhoon relys on Torps and Drones and only has one bonus effectively as 1st bonus for 4 weapons and 2nd bonus for 4 weapons where other ships have 1 bonus for 8 weapons. At least it has minmatar speed, mass and sig even though the nanophoon days are long gone except for bumping. The Mael feels like an Amarr ship or something - a tub with good DPS and tank - agreed. The Pest has room for 3 damage mods(2x T2, 1x Basic) the way I fit it, so I don't know what your problem is there. It could use more turret slots if you want to really rock, but for having 6 it's a monster. And the Phoon is a weird little boat that defies all explanation. In summary, while large AC's suck, Minmatar battleships don't. That was my whole point here. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.02 03:50:00 - [18] If large AC's suck, but minmatar BS that use large AC's don't suck when fitting large AC's, then large AC's don't suck. So if only one of them is sub-optimal when fitting large ACs and the others aren't then the problem isn't in the ACs its in the ship that isn't doing its job properly.
Cilppiz FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.02 10:13:00 - [19] I have to agree with this one, though Im not sure if the issue can be solved solely by twieking projectiles or minnie battleships. If I remember right, Tempest with max skills is the only Minnie BS hull - due the dual damage bonus from hull - that gives more DPS out of 800mm Repeating II than Siege Missile Launcher II in cases you dont have room for damage mods. If you dont have Minnie BS lvl4, fitting 4x Siege Missile Launcher II's and 4x 800mm Repeating II's will most likely give better DPS over 6x 800mm Repeating II's and 2x Siege Missile Launcher II's. In Maelstorm (3 launcher slots) you need atleast 1x Gyro II and in Typhoon I doubt even 2x Gyro II's are enough to boost 800mm Repeating II DPS over what Siege Missli Launcher II can provide. Ok, comparing two totally different weaponsystems has its own issues and autocannons are not about damage, but I recon were not far from situation where fitting everything but projectiles to minnie BS will give you the best damage output and I find this issue disturbing. It sure would be nice to be able fit AC's to Minnie battleships to get the best DPS possible. PS: Maxed out char + Maelstrom fitting full rack of Neutron Blaster Cannon II's with CN AM will give 506 DPS when 800mm Repeating Artillery II's with RF EMP only adds up to 468 DPS
Marn Prestoc The Black Mamba's	Posted - 2008.06.02 11:08:00 - [20] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Minmatar battleships, PvP fit(no tackle, T2 gear, no rigs, faction/T2 ammo), all level V skills: Maelstrom: 1144 DPS dealt, 720 DPS tanked, 68k effective HP, 1042 m/s Tempest: 1121 DPS dealt, 399 DPS tanked, 60k effective HP, 1358 m/s Typhoon: 917 DPS dealt, 211 DPS tanked, 68k effective HP, 1453 m/s (also, better scan resolution than a Vagabond, since it's got room for 2x Sensor Booster II) They're only low DPS in comparison to other battleships, they still do more damage than any sub-battleship save an Astarte. LMAO mythical fits, now with the exact same setups go compare the tanks besides the fact that no one would use that Tempest or Typhoon setup. Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Tempest: 1358 m/s. Hyperion: 1198 m/s. They have the same align time, but the Pest is still 13% faster. And that's comparing it to Gallente, who are the second-fastest race. Look at an Abaddon - it goes 984 m/s, meaning the Pest is 38% faster at linear speed, and it aligns 10% faster too. WRONG. Hyperion is 1261 m/s so Tempest doesn't even have 100m/s advantage. Besides it taking 3+ cycles to get to that max difference so the difference will actually be less. Sure compare the damage, range and tank difference with the Abaddon while at it. Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto If nothing in Eve is bad, then nothing is good either. Quality is relative. And what I said was that the weapon system was supposed to be bad, not that the ships using it are. A Tempest can't beat your face in as well as a Dominix, or shoot you from as far away as a Rokh, but it's faster than either, giving it the ability to disengage from a fight it can't win(and that's before you nano-fit it). An autocannon doesn't measure up to a blaster, but that doesn't mean an autocannon-fit ship is worse than a blaster-fit ship. Everything can be good, but in different ways! Blasters are king of peak DPS, pulse are king of range. Point is AC's offer something different but at BS level there's just no point if you can fly another race and i'm speaking as a minmatar BS pilot with t2 projectiles, torps, heavy drones, bs 5, basically the works but has a amarr char with amarr BS 4 that performs better as there's just no role for ACs at large level if you have an alternative. Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Neutron Blaster Cannon II with Void = 6.8 km optimal, 6.3 km falloff. 800mm Repeating Artillery II with Hail = 3 km optimal, 10 km falloff. Their T2 ammo ranges match up at one falloff almost exactly, meaning that the blaster is better-ranged from 3-13 km, and the autocannon is better-ranged from 13-23 km. As for the ammos, you can fit faction ammo in an autocannon, deal almost as much damage as the Hail, be able to change damage type if you see the need to do so, and your range beats those piddly blasters any day. Here's a lesson, all t2 close range ammo sucks. Just minmatar don't have an alternative because EMP sucks and so does the faction ammo based on it. But EFT warriors expect minmatar pilots to use hail because its the highest mythical dps. Either fix t1 ammo and its faction varients or hail. Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto The Mael feels like an Amarr ship or something - a tub with good DPS and tank - agreed. The Pest has room for 3 damage mods(2x T2, 1x Basic) the way I fit it, so I don't know what your problem is there. It could use more turret slots if you want to really rock, but for having 6 it's a monster. And the Phoon is a weird little boat that defies all explanation. In summary, while large AC's suck, Minmatar battleships don't. That was my whole point here. You fit 3 gyro's on a Tempest and ones a basic?! Talk about rubbish fit, I'd love to see your glass tank and your use of it. Calling it a monster only proves you've never flown the thing. Any self respecting pilot knows the Tempest is weak (even Goum says it needs something). -

Marn Prestoc The Black Mamba's	Posted - 2008.06.02 11:50:00 - [21] Edited by: Marn Prestoc on 02/06/2008 11:50:37 Originally by: Goumindong If large AC's suck, but minmatar BS that use large AC's don't suck when fitting large AC's, then large AC's don't suck. So if only one of them is sub-optimal when fitting large ACs and the others aren't then the problem isn't in the ACs its in the ship that isn't doing its job properly. No, it does mean they suck but the ship was compensated through another method (extra drone damage for example). I'd happily lose a drone from Maelstrom if it got more damage from its turrets especially if it got more range (ie from per-tier system). Tempest / Typhoon don't need anything taken away if large AC's were improved. -
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.02 12:45:00 - [22] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 02/06/2008 12:47:33 Tbh: Maelstorm: it's really fine, but it could really use a tad more agility (think, 10%), as it's one of the worst handling BS and feels incredibly un-minmatar. It handles much worse then most of its counterparts. Room for spare drones would be beautiful but isn't all that necessary. Typhoon: it's fine, barring one small detail. It could really use is switching armour/shield HP amounts. It is annoying to no end that a ship built for armour tanking has more shield HP then armour, and considering that it's not a huge HP difference, it wouldn't unbalance the ship in any way. Tempest: meh, the Tempest. It gets outpreformed by its Tier 1 / Tier 3 counterparts at whatever you try, but it's 'versatile'. Wanting to keep that flavour, I would do three things (the last one is a minor issue, but still annoying): (a) give the Tempest 100m3 bandwidth (slighly increasing damage output) and 175m3 dronebay (for a pack of lights plus a pack of mediums). (b) give the Tempest 10% more agility (it's straight line speed is fine, but it handles horribly, particularly for a Minmatar ship). (c) switching the Tempest's armour HP and shield HP values. Again, as a armour tank (mostly, it's the popular way to fit one) it needs to be focused on armour HP. The change is marginal, but it would help the ship in its most popular role. From there, I'd see how it pans out - but at least it'd get a bit more damage output and would be more Minmatar. As it is, large ACs are so-so; they lose a number of advantages which medium ACs have over medium blasters (particularly because of the ships fitting them), but any major changes would still leave the Tempest in the dust and would boost the already good ships. Maybe tracking would be nice, currently a Megathron is better at both ganking big things AND small things then a Tempest is, since the Tempest uses two damage bonuses to get reasonable DPS while the Megathron gets a tracking bonus to play with (as only one damage bonus brings its turrets up to awesome DPS). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Keela Bahni Republic University	Posted - 2008.06.02 12:46:00 - [23] Edited by: Keela Bahni on 02/06/2008 12:46:38 Mael does 800 DPS from turrets alone with 3 Gyro II, 800 IIs and RF EMP. It also has the grid to fit 3 Falloff Rigs for 30km Falloff with RF EMP easily. While doing those two, it can still fit a bastard tank in the mids. Where exactly does that need a boost?
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.02 12:48:00 - [24] Originally by: Keela Bahni Where exactly does that need a boost? The Tempest Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Cilppiz FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.02 15:38:00 - [25] Originally by: Keela Bahni Edited by: Keela Bahni on 02/06/2008 12:46:38 Mael does 800 DPS from turrets alone with 3 Gyro II, 800 IIs and RF EMP. I can only get 765DPS out of said setup (you must be using some HW's on top of EFT all lvl5 skills), but I get 831dps if I make it 3x MagStabs and Neutrons and CN AM. One could think AC fitted Mael would outdps Blaster fitted Mael after the 25% ROF bonus those AC's get, dont you think? Nah, AC's are just fine
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.02 15:49:00 - [26] Originally by: Cilppiz Originally by: Keela Bahni Edited by: Keela Bahni on 02/06/2008 12:46:38 Mael does 800 DPS from turrets alone with 3 Gyro II, 800 IIs and RF EMP. I can only get 765DPS out of said setup (you must be using some HW's on top of EFT all lvl5 skills), but I get 831dps if I make it 3x MagStabs and Neutrons and CN AM. One could think AC fitted Mael would outdps Blaster fitted Mael after the 25% ROF bonus those AC's get, dont you think? Nah, AC's are just fine Something is wrong with your character, i get 805 DPS at all 5s with no hardwirings.
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.02 15:52:00 - [27] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Cilppiz Originally by: Keela Bahni Edited by: Keela Bahni on 02/06/2008 12:46:38 Mael does 800 DPS from turrets alone with 3 Gyro II, 800 IIs and RF EMP. I can only get 765DPS out of said setup (you must be using some HW's on top of EFT all lvl5 skills), but I get 831dps if I make it 3x MagStabs and Neutrons and CN AM. One could think AC fitted Mael would outdps Blaster fitted Mael after the 25% ROF bonus those AC's get, dont you think? Nah, AC's are just fine Something is wrong with your character, i get 805 DPS at all 5s with no hardwirings. Last time I checked 805 was less than 831 so his point is still valid.
Cilppiz FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.02 16:07:00 - [28] I have 8x 800mm Repeating Artillery II's fitted with 3x Gyrostabilizer II's and Rep Fleet EMP L on barrels, also all the affecting skills show as lvl5 and it tells me 765dps. If Im truly getting wrong number someone should check if my Blaster DPS was also off
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.02 16:15:00 - [29] Edited by: Goumindong on 02/06/2008 16:16:51 Originally by: Marn Prestoc Edited by: Marn Prestoc on 02/06/2008 11:50:37 Originally by: Goumindong If large AC's suck, but minmatar BS that use large AC's don't suck when fitting large AC's, then large AC's don't suck. So if only one of them is sub-optimal when fitting large ACs and the others aren't then the problem isn't in the ACs its in the ship that isn't doing its job properly. No, it does mean they suck but the ship was compensated through another method (extra drone damage for example). I'd happily lose a drone from Maelstrom if it got more damage from its turrets especially if it got more range (ie from per-tier system). Tempest / Typhoon don't need anything taken away if large AC's were improved. So Large Blasters suck and need to be boosted because the Megathron would suck if it only had 50 cubes of drone bay? That is ******. [fake edit: 855 for blasters on a Maelstrom, but the ACs have a whole tonne more range. If the ACs are using Hail its 890 DPS on them, and you can easily fit 3 falloff rigs for more range than a blaster ship could ever hope to have] Originally by:** Yorda Last time I checked 805 was less than 831 so his point is still valid. Only if blasters don't use cap, are as easy to fit as the 800mm IIs and have 30km falloff with similar PG use[Hint, they don't]
Marn Prestoc The Black Mamba's	Posted - 2008.06.02 16:18:00 - [30] Originally by: Cilppiz I have 8x 800mm Repeating Artillery II's fitted with 3x Gyrostabilizer II's and Rep Fleet EMP L on barrels, also all the affecting skills show as lvl5 and it tells me 765dps. If Im truly getting wrong number someone should check if my Blaster DPS was also off It's 804.6 for 8x 800mm T2 AC with 3x Gyro T2 and RF EMP. With 8x Neutrons T2 with 3x MFS T2 and CN AM its 855 although will have serious fitting issues nevermind range with such a heavy and slow ship which is why the Hyperion closed the small gap between Gallente BS and Tempest while all the other tier 3 BS were made slow and heavy. -

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