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Vivien Sureflight
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Posted - 2008.06.02 16:30:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Cilppiz
Originally by: Keela Bahni
Edited by: Keela Bahni on 02/06/2008 12:46:38
Mael does 800 DPS from turrets alone with 3 Gyro II, 800 IIs and RF EMP.
I can only get 765DPS out of said setup (you must be using some HW's on top of EFT all lvl5 skills), but I get 831dps if I make it 3x MagStabs and Neutrons and CN AM.
One could think AC fitted Mael would outdps Blaster fitted Mael after the 25% ROF bonus those AC's get, dont you think?
Nah, AC's are just fine 
Okay, so you get about 30 DPS more with blasters. That's about the DPS from ONE small turret. Big deal.
Also, you get 30km+ range with ACs; Blasters are within 15km. AND the blasters will be using cap, and will therefore make it harder to run a tank. On top of that, the Mael is somewhat bulky and slow, and therefore isn't cut out for a blaster boat. The reason the Mael seems to be Un-Minmatar is that it has a defined role: that of sitting back from the fight and raining hell on the enemy. The Phoon and Pest are much more flexible.
That said, I've personally witnessed a single Mael (with the help of myself in a stealth bomber) beat a team of two Hyperions that were using ECM drones. The Mael pilot had to use 3 cap charges the entire fight and never hit armor. And to dissuade the comments, both Hyperion pilots were professional mercs and had more than 15mil SP each.
Just because you get marginally more DPS out of blasters doesn't mean they're better than ACs. Only an idiot would sacrifice 15km of range for 30 DPS.
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Give a man some fire and he'll be warm for a day. SET a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life... |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.02 17:09:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
Your being idiotic. I didn't say anything like that so stop with the "what if" rubbish because its nothing like the situation described. Maelstrom has the max number of turrets possible and a ROF bonus so only way to give it more damage is through drone bay.
Typhoons AC damage is pathetic, Tempests AC damage is pathetic, Maelstroms isn't bad so if AC damage was increased (such as through the ammo) and any other changes like falloff per tier that would help Maelstrom the most then knocking a heavy drone off it would balance the whole lot up.
No, that is exactly what you said.
"Domis blaster damage is pathetic. Megathrons blaster damage is pathetic. Hyperions isn't bad so if blaster damage was increased (such as through the ammo) and any other changes that would help hyperion, the most then knocking a heavy drone off it would balance the whole lot up."
Bull ******* ****. All ships need to be considered in their entirety. Two of the ships that use large ACs are fine and/or very good. One of the ships is not.
That doesn't mean there is a problem with large ACs it means there is a problem with the one ship which is not fine.
Or hell, here is a better example:
Idiots: Waaa, large lasers suck, my Apoc is terrible!
Not Idiots: No, the Geddon and Abaddon are fine, the Apoc sucks. So its not the large lasers, its the apoc.
If you took all the drones off the Geddon it would suck too, but that doesn't mean large lasers suck, it means that if you took off all the drones, the Geddon would suck.
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Marn Prestoc
The Black Mamba's
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Posted - 2008.06.02 17:38:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
Your being idiotic. I didn't say anything like that so stop with the "what if" rubbish because its nothing like the situation described. Maelstrom has the max number of turrets possible and a ROF bonus so only way to give it more damage is through drone bay.
Typhoons AC damage is pathetic, Tempests AC damage is pathetic, Maelstroms isn't bad so if AC damage was increased (such as through the ammo) and any other changes like falloff per tier that would help Maelstrom the most then knocking a heavy drone off it would balance the whole lot up.
No, that is exactly what you said.
"Domis blaster damage is pathetic. Megathrons blaster damage is pathetic. Hyperions isn't bad so if blaster damage was increased (such as through the ammo) and any other changes that would help hyperion, the most then knocking a heavy drone off it would balance the whole lot up."
Bull ******* ****. All ships need to be considered in their entirety. Two of the ships that use large ACs are fine and/or very good. One of the ships is not.
That doesn't mean there is a problem with large ACs it means there is a problem with the one ship which is not fine.
Or hell, here is a better example:
Idiots: Waaa, large lasers suck, my Apoc is terrible!
Not Idiots: No, the Geddon and Abaddon are fine, the Apoc sucks. So its not the large lasers, its the apoc.
If you took all the drones off the Geddon it would suck too, but that doesn't mean large lasers suck, it means that if you took off all the drones, the Geddon would suck.
 but what you just said isn't what you said either, your changing the statement and claiming its the same.
The fact the ships being compared are nothing like your comparison is obviously beyond you but keep trying to make the same point with increasing hostility until no one can be bothered to discuss things with you like normal .
What i'm saying is more damage should come from AC's than the other sources (drones and missiles) than the current balance, they're the racial weapon after all. Increasing the AC performance will help Tempest especially and also the Typhoon a bit but will also shift some of the Maelstroms damage to its turrets.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.02 17:39:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
LMAO mythical fits, now with the exact same setups go compare the tanks besides the fact that no one would use that Tempest or Typhoon setup.
Typhoon High: 4x Dual 650 II w/ Hail, 4x Arbalest Siege w/ CN Mjolnir
Typhoon Mid: 100MN MWD II, Heavy Electrochemical Cap Booster, 2x Sensor Booster II w/ Targeting Speed
Typhoon Low: LAR II, 2x EANM II, DC II, 1600mm RRT, RCU II, PDS II
Tempest High: 6x 800 II x/ Hail, 2x Arbalest Siege w/ CN Mjolnir
Tempest Mid: XLSB II, 2x Invuln II, 100MN MWD II, Heavy Cap Booster II
Tempest Low: DC II, 2x Co-Proc II, 2x Gyrostab II, Basic Gyrostab
Maelstrom High: 8x 800 II x/ Hail
Maelstrom Mid: XLSB II, SBA II, 2x Invuln II, 100MN MWD II, Heavy Cap Booster II
Maelstrom Low: Co-Proc II, DC II, 3x Gyrostab II
Mythical, you say? What's a real setup look like?
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
WRONG. Hyperion is 1261 m/s so Tempest doesn't even have 100m/s advantage. Besides it taking 3+ cycles to get to that max difference so the difference will actually be less. Sure compare the damage, range and tank difference with the Abaddon while at it.
My bad, the Hyperion MWD was on a PvP setup that had an armour rig on it and I didn't notice. You're right, the Tempest is only 8% faster, not 13%. Of course, the fact that the shield-tanking Tempest doesn't use armour rigs is part of what makes it faster is somewhat relevant, but I should go for the clean comparison anyways.
As for the Abaddon, here's the compirable setup:
Abaddon High: 8x Mega Pulse II w/Conflag
Abaddon Mid: 100MN MWD II, HCB II, 2x SB II w/ Targeting Speed
Abaddon Low: 1600mm RRT, LAR II, EANM II, DC II, 3x Heat Sink II
It does 1135 DPS, tanks 220, has 88k effective HP, and goes 970 m/s. The range on the guns is only 15+10, which is only 12 km better than the Tempest, and they track 3/4 as fast(0.021 instead of 0.027). The Abaddon buffer tanks harder, with the Tempest taking 156 seconds to catch up. Their caps break in similar time, but assuming the target is properly webbed and the MWD can be turned off, the Tempest's lasts over twice as long(6:10 vs 2:40), and of course the Tempest can keep shooting even if it's capped out. The Abaddon is better for many purposes, but it's hardly a strictly superior ship.
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
Everything can be good, but in different ways! Blasters are king of peak DPS, pulse are king of range. Point is AC's offer something different but at BS level there's just no point if you can fly another race and i'm speaking as a minmatar BS pilot with t2 projectiles, torps, heavy drones, bs 5, basically the works but has a amarr char with amarr BS 4 that performs better as there's just no role for ACs at large level if you have an alternative.
Yeah, they offer something different - damage switching, tracking, and zero capacitor use. Don't neglect the less obvious bonuses.
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
Here's a lesson, all t2 close range ammo sucks. Just minmatar don't have an alternative because EMP sucks and so does the faction ammo based on it. But EFT warriors expect minmatar pilots to use hail because its the highest mythical dps.
Either fix t1 ammo and its faction varients or hail.
Why does T2 short-range ammo suck? I've used a good amount of Void in my day, and never had any complaints. Cheaper than CN AM, slightly higher DPS, slightly better range, and the cap and tracking differences have never really come up, since my target is always webbed and one of us always dies quick.
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
You fit 3 gyro's on a Tempest and ones a basic?! Talk about rubbish fit, I'd love to see your glass tank and your use of it. Calling it a monster only proves you've never flown the thing. Any self respecting pilot knows the Tempest is weak (even Goum says it needs something).
Dude, it fits a shield tank. When you're not tackling or EWarring, shield tanks are pretty good in PvP. And I said it's a monster for 6 turrets, not in general. Generally, it's OK.
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Fix the forums! |
Kelbesque Crystalis
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Posted - 2008.06.02 18:25:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
LMAO mythical fits, now with the exact same setups go compare the tanks besides the fact that no one would use that Tempest or Typhoon setup.
Typhoon High: 4x Dual 650 II w/ Hail,
Tempest High: 6x 800 II x/ Hail,
Maelstrom High: 8x 800 II x/ Hail
Mythical, you say? What's a real setup look like?
First, stop with the EFT. No one actually uses Hail due to the penalties.
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Cilppiz
FinFleet
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.02 18:34:00 -
[36]
I had "Include reload time in DPS" ticked on thus lower DPS. By ignoring reload time, Neutron setup I used to show how Autocannons in my opinion lack dps on shorter range, goes up to 855dps.
Ofcourse blaster setup (optimal rigs) would dominate by its DPS only up to ~12km compared to AC setup (falloff rigs) but then again Maelstorm with Mega Pulses (optimal rigs) will outdps Autocannon fit starting from ~14km all the way up to ~28km. Anyway, the reason I brought these lolfits up is that in my opinion they are way too good when you remember that were using completely wrong weapon system with hull that has ROF bonus to projectiles and should shine with that weaponsystem.
In scene I brought up Autocannons are second best on close range, second best on long range (after 30km your only scratching paint), they have second best tracking (though only by .00012 so lets call it shared "the best"). Only thing they really have going for em is the most cap friendly tittle, and even this tittle can be questioned when you think how meny of closerange cookiecutter/FOTM setup are build around effective hp buffer tanks... If you go and try the same thing in hulls like Megathron and Apoc or Geddon you will notice that in these hulls the "right" weaponsystem is the best on most areas if not in all of em. So why cant Maelstorm (or Typhoon, it has the same 5% ROF bonus) do the same with autocannons? Is it because autocannons dont really have role due somewhat poor design? Is it because these ships are not made for autocannons in the way like Megathrons, Apocs and Geddons are made for their weaponsystems?
Id say its because both! Most, if not every Minnie BS needs little finetuning and so does both autocannons and artilleries. Id say its impossible to fix all these issues that Minmatar battleships have by only looking one possible source of the problem.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.02 18:37:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
Laughing but what you just said isn't what you said either, your changing the statement and claiming its the same.
The fact the ships being compared are nothing like your comparison is obviously beyond you but keep trying to make the same point with increasing hostility until no one can be bothered to discuss things with you like normal Laughing.
What i'm saying is more damage should come from AC's than the other sources (drones and missiles) than the current balance, they're the racial weapon after all. Increasing the AC performance will help Tempest especially and also the Typhoon a bit but will also shift some of the Maelstroms damage to its turrets.
Why should more damage come from ACs?
Why change 3 ships and 1 or more weapon systems in order to fix 1 ship? Its ********, when you balance you change as little as possible in order to get the desired result in order to lower the chances of unintended side effects.
And no, the ships being compared are very similar. If you took the drones away from either of them they would suck. Its the same problem with the pest except it never had them in the first place.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.06.02 18:41:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Ulstan on 02/06/2008 18:41:34
I think Large Autocannons are fine, given that they use no cap. To be balanced, they have to be 'less good' than either blasters or pulses. That is, if you ignore cap, the autocannon should look less attractive.
Tempest could use some help though.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.02 19:15:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis
First, stop with the EFT. No one actually uses Hail due to the penalties.
You're a MWDing Minmatar ship, so range isn't the issue. You've got a buddy webbing them to effectively nil, so tracking isn't the issue. And you're in a cap-boosted PvP fit, so cap recharge isn't the issue. On the other hand, there's a good chance they're fitting an armour tank, meaning the damage type is very good, and it's got far higher DPS than even faction EMP. Tell me again why people don't use it?
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Fix the forums! |
Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.02 19:43:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Yorda on 02/06/2008 19:46:27
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis
First, stop with the EFT. No one actually uses Hail due to the penalties.
You're a MWDing Minmatar ship, so range isn't the issue. You've got a buddy webbing them to effectively nil, so tracking isn't the issue. And you're in a cap-boosted PvP fit, so cap recharge isn't the issue. On the other hand, there's a good chance they're fitting an armour tank, meaning the damage type is very good, and it's got far higher DPS than even faction EMP. Tell me again why people don't use it?
You might be a mwding minmatar ship but you're still not going to go more than 1k/sec in a none nano setup, any cruiser with a mwd will be able to outrun you. It's just not worth cutting your cap in half for a 30% dps increase when you can get the extreme falloff of barrage. Especially when you're in a relatively slow ship.
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RDLxVulture
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.06.02 19:44:00 -
[41]
/signed
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Our best diplo is 1400mm T2 and his older brother Gjallarhorn ¬ Vashi Dokumentu |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.02 20:53:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Yorda
You might be a mwding minmatar ship but you're still not going to go more than 1k/sec in a none nano setup, any cruiser with a mwd will be able to outrun you. It's just not worth cutting your cap in half for a 30% dps increase when you can get the extreme falloff of barrage. Especially when you're in a relatively slow ship.
It really depends on what you are doing and what you are fighting. There is a lot of benefit to be had by changing ammos to a shorter range higher damage option. And there is only one MWDing minnie ship that goes under 1kms, and it can fit 3 falloff rigs easily to hit 15km falloff. Easily enough for most engagements[especially when a lot of targets like blaster ships will be wanting to come to you].
Hail isn't good for what we do, but neither are blasters of any sort and that doesn't mean both don't have a use.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.02 21:39:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Yorda
You might be a mwding minmatar ship but you're still not going to go more than 1k/sec in a none nano setup, any cruiser with a mwd will be able to outrun you. It's just not worth cutting your cap in half for a 30% dps increase when you can get the extreme falloff of barrage. Especially when you're in a relatively slow ship.
My ship fits have no tackle gear - they're gang-only. If you're in a gang where battleships don't tackle, that means you've probably got frigates that do. Frigates can pretty easily outspeed fleeing cruisers and get the web on them, at which point your 1 km/s is plenty to catch up to them. And "cutting your cap in half" is a farce - the cap recharge on these ships while in combat comes almost entirely from the booster. The Phoon gains 2.9 cap/s, the Pest gains 3.6, and the Mael gains 4.8 by switching from all Hail to all RF EMP. If you want to recharge naturally, you can dock up. Failing that, carry RF EMP - it's still good to have on hand - and switch out ammo when you actually care.
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Fix the forums! |
Molarin
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Posted - 2008.06.02 22:46:00 -
[44]
/signed
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ceyriot
Induseng Enterprises
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.06.02 23:24:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
I've just looked at all the numbers to see if you have a point, and I'm not sure that you do.
Blasters do the highest DPS at the shortest range, with middling tracking and fitting requirements. Pulse lasers have the longest range, middle DPS, but terrible tracking and fitting requirements. Autocannons track a bit better than blasters, are a bit easier to fit, but do the lowest DPS of the group.
The easiest comparison is between the unnamed T1 biggest gun of each class(neutron, mega, and 800). They've all got the same ROF, which makes them a lot easier to compare directly. The damage mods are 3.5, 3, and 2.695, meaning that the autocannon does 77% of the damage of a blaster. It's got 2 km less optimal and 6 km more falloff, meaning only a marginal increase in range. It tracks marginally worse. It uses 250 less grid and 16 less CPU, which is actually significant, as well as using no capacitor, which is nice(especially when facing cap warfare). But these aren't worth giving up a quarter of your DPS for, as a rule. In fact, a Maelstrom fitting 800mm's versus neutrons will get *less* damage from the autocannons using T1 ammo, and only about 3% more with T2 ammo(with all-V skills and 8x T2 guns, it gets 450 DPS with antimatter, 423 with EMP, 539 with Hail, and 525 with Void). This is a ship with a projectile bonus, and the hybrid is still doing almost identical damage.
The pulse laser comparison is less direct, since the numbers don't line up nearly so well. The autocannon does 90% of the DPS, tracks 28% better, has significantly less range(4+16 km vs 20+8), and takes 500 grid and 11 CPU less. There's no Minmatar ship that does better with pulses than autocannons. And of course, pulse lasers are pigs for capacitor(5.3 cap/s per gun with multi, fully skilled), whereas autocannons use none.
All that said, there's also the fact that the races are optimized a bit differently. Blasters are supposed to be the best short-ranged weapon type - no ship can do DPS as well as a Gallentean blaster boat, especially once you factor in the plus-sized drone bays. And that's intentional, and highly unlikely to change - it's part of racial balance, not just balance between different weapon types. Blasters do ludicrous DPS, but they have infinitesimal range, take cap, and can't change damage type. Pulses have good range and middling damage, but they take a lot of cap, can't change damage type(generally doing the worst type, at that), and aren't as good close-in due to their lack of tracking.
tl;dr = Autocannons do crappy DPS, but they aren't as bad as they look. The rest of the difference can be chalked up to the fact that they're supposed to be bad.
Bane, I see where you're coming from here, but I'm afraid I can't agree. When they knock 25% off the speed of Minmatar ships, they can feel free to add 25% to their autocannon DPS. Until then, I'll let racial balancing take its natural course.
Thanks for explaining it out for the masses, now I don't need to do the same.
/not signed...I'm happy with autocannons...and when I need raw damage, I just switch to a Mega...
Faction Store - Killboard |
Marn Prestoc
The Black Mamba's
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Posted - 2008.06.02 23:31:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Marn Prestoc on 02/06/2008 23:31:11
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Mythical, you say? What's a real setup look like?
I'm not sure to cry or laugh at the Tempest and Typhoon setups, the fact you think they're good and hence think the weapons are fine is frankly amazing. maelstrom setup is fine really but then you don't have much choice besides active tank 3 gyros and 8 guns.
RCU and PDU on a Typhoon? Yes because this will offer so much more than another races ship that doesn't need so many fitting mods.
Shield tank pest with 2 CPUs? Why not just use a Maelstrom with say an Istab for a much better tank.
Mythical because its quite easy to open EFT then copy the setup onto a forum, these actually used in game? Wouldn't suprise me really the number of awful ship setups i've seen.
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
My bad, the Hyperion MWD was on a PvP setup that had an armour rig on it and I didn't notice. You're right, the Tempest is only 8% faster, not 13%. Of course, the fact that the shield-tanking Tempest doesn't use armour rigs is part of what makes it faster is somewhat relevant, but I should go for the clean comparison anyways.
The fact that a shield tank Tempest is quite pointless is clearly besides the point...
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
As for the Abaddon, here's the compirable setup:
Abaddon High: 8x Mega Pulse II w/Conflag
Abaddon Mid: 100MN MWD II, HCB II, 2x SB II w/ Targeting Speed
Abaddon Low: 1600mm RRT, LAR II, EANM II, DC II, 3x Heat Sink II
It does 1135 DPS, tanks 220, has 88k effective HP, and goes 970 m/s. The range on the guns is only 15+10, which is only 12 km better than the Tempest, and they track 3/4 as fast(0.021 instead of 0.027). The Abaddon buffer tanks harder, with the Tempest taking 156 seconds to catch up. Their caps break in similar time, but assuming the target is properly webbed and the MWD can be turned off, the Tempest's lasts over twice as long(6:10 vs 2:40), and of course the Tempest can keep shooting even if it's capped out. The Abaddon is better for many purposes, but it's hardly a strictly superior ship.
Yes because having "only" 15km optimal with max damage ammo is awful (try having 3km) nevermind the option of taking a few seconds to switch to Scorch and having 40 odd km range which more than makes up for a 200 odd m/s max mwd speed.
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Yeah, they offer something different - damage switching, tracking, and zero capacitor use. Don't neglect the less obvious bonuses.
No, they have limited damage switching. Missiles have damage switching. Tracking? You do realise a Neutron T2 blaster is nearly identicle tracking to 800mm T2 AC so scratch off that less obvious advantage as none-existant.
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Why does T2 short-range ammo suck? I've used a good amount of Void in my day, and never had any complaints. Cheaper than CN AM, slightly higher DPS, slightly better range, and the cap and tracking differences have never really come up, since my target is always webbed and one of us always dies quick.
Clearly the extra 0.8 damage (55.2 vs 56) is worth the 1.25x cap use increase, optimal penalty, falloff penalty and tracking penalty. You get more damage from CN AM due to hit quality.
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Dude, it fits a shield tank. When you're not tackling or EWarring, shield tanks are pretty good in PvP. And I said it's a monster for 6 turrets, not in general. Generally, it's OK.
Tempest is a monster? I can sort of agree, it is a abomination which is a kind of monster.
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Alex Shurk
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Posted - 2008.06.02 23:34:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
stuff
FYI those are some ******* terrible setups.
First phoon setup - no tackle, hail ammo lol, and PDS with a ****ty armour tank? seen more competent fits come from bruce.
Pest: Try tracking anything with those guns when you're moving, Also, basic gyro? Are you having a laugh? 2x Co-Proc? dear lord, son, learn how to compensate on CPU.
Mael: Christ, again with the 800s. They're crap for normal usage, terrible tracking and again with a co-proc, wasting a low.
If you're going to argue about ship balance, at least learn how to fit the things.
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Marn Prestoc
The Black Mamba's
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Posted - 2008.06.03 00:21:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
Laughing but what you just said isn't what you said either, your changing the statement and claiming its the same.
The fact the ships being compared are nothing like your comparison is obviously beyond you but keep trying to make the same point with increasing hostility until no one can be bothered to discuss things with you like normal Laughing.
What i'm saying is more damage should come from AC's than the other sources (drones and missiles) than the current balance, they're the racial weapon after all. Increasing the AC performance will help Tempest especially and also the Typhoon a bit but will also shift some of the Maelstroms damage to its turrets.
Why should more damage come from ACs?
Why change 3 ships and 1 or more weapon systems in order to fix 1 ship? Its ********, when you balance you change as little as possible in order to get the desired result in order to lower the chances of unintended side effects.
And no, the ships being compared are very similar. If you took the drones away from either of them they would suck. Its the same problem with the pest except it never had them in the first place.
You realise that even with ROF bonus a 800mm T2 AC is lower than a unbonused neutron blaster with both behind a unbonused seige launcher. In fact a Megathron with 1 MFS or a 2 HS Abaddon will have around the same DPS per turret as a 3 gyro Maelstrom. The only reason AC's are fine on a Maelstrom is because the Maelstrom shield tanks so can fit the damage mods. If you look at Tempest with no damage mods its DPS per turret is 76 and seige launchers are 72, thats a ROF + DMG bonused weapon only just beating a unbonused weapon. Large AC's on a Typhoon is frankly comical with around 50 DPS per turret when its bonused seige are doing 95.
Hell rather than just raising the base damage, even if it was only by 1 point at large size i'd prefer them moving PP and Fusion to the max damage level and lower EMP plus fixing hail (and all other t2 close range ammos).
The main issue with AC's is the lack of reason to upgrade per tier. Tracking between Dual 425's vs Electrons is 8% advantage and 800's vs Neutrons is practically identicle. You get no extra range besides a few hundred KM optimal unlike other races where larger tier means significantly more optimal and falloff.
The difference in our comparisons is the huge difference in damage source, it would be quite clear that the weapon system that already gives the best damage per turret wouldn't need it increasing further. For example 3 gyro 800mm on tempest is 125 dps/turret with 3 mfs neutrons 133 dps/turret (hyper or mega) so is not only behind on dps/turret, its behind on turrets and slots available for damage mods unless you use a 4 slot shield tank.
But whatever, there's still a lot of tweaking needed of the ammos and tier system of AC's without even changing the end damage amounts of the ships.
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Jeats Cheats
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.06.03 00:26:00 -
[49]
I support a boost to Minmatar Autocannons.
The damage with 3 damage mods is frankly too poor.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.03 01:14:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
You realise that even with ROF bonus a 800mm T2 AC is lower than a unbonused neutron blaster with both behind a unbonused seige launcher.
And this matters because? 800mm T2 AC on a Mael will do more damage with hail than it will with neutron blasters. With EMP the ship will have up to 30km falloff.
Quote:
The main issue with AC's is the lack of reason to upgrade per tier. Tracking between Dual 425's vs Electrons is 8% advantage and 800's vs Neutrons is practically identicle. You get no extra range besides a few hundred KM optimal unlike other races where larger tier means significantly more optimal and falloff.
So now you are complaining that your low tier weapons are too good? That it hurts others more when downsizing? So we should nerf 650 ACs and 425s?
1 damage mod on a Mega with electrons does 608 damage with no drones to 3+7km(CN AM). 0 damage mods on a tempest with 425s, siege, and hail does 594 damage with no drones to 2.4+10km. [plus launcher damage]. That is as much damage with more range.
Quote:
The difference in our comparisons is the huge difference in damage source, it would be quite clear that the weapon system that already gives the best damage per turret wouldn't need it increasing further. For example 3 gyro 800mm on tempest is 125 dps/turret with 3 mfs neutrons 133 dps/turret (hyper or mega) so is not only behind on dps/turret, its behind on turrets and slots available for damage mods unless you use a 4 slot shield tank.
Ahh yes, lets conveniently ignore the 6 lows on the hyperion and the 2 free high slots fir missile launchers[which do not fit in any fit on the Mega].
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But whatever, there's still a lot of tweaking needed of the ammos and tier system of AC's without even changing the end damage amounts of the ships.
So the idea is to make the ammos do more damage but not affect the final DPS of the ships?
Why nerf 2 things and buff something else when you could just buff one thing?
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.03 03:27:00 -
[51]
First off, all the people *****ing about my setups, post yours, please. I'd like to see them.
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
RCU and PDU on a Typhoon? Yes because this will offer so much more than another races ship that doesn't need so many fitting mods.
Fittitng mods are fitting mods - sometimes you need them. A 2-slot shield tank isn't a serious option, thus you want an armour repper, and that takes grid. But after your complaints, I see I did fit it wrong - drop the 650s to 425s, drop the PDS for a BCS II - goes from 917 DPS to 980, and you don't lose much of anything on cap or shield HP. Can even raise that to 1063 if you drop a tank mod to add another - losing an EANM costs you 8k HP and 46 DPS tanked, but gains you 83 DPS dealt. Depends how much of a glass cannon you want.
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
Shield tank pest with 2 CPUs? Why not just use a Maelstrom with say an Istab for a much better tank.
If you're going to compare it to the Mael, then yeah, it's worse at everythign but speed. The Mael is probably the best PvP battleship in the game, at least for close-in work in small gang. I'm trying to see what the Tempest can do, and this is the best answer I've found to that. That said, you'd have to be nuts to fit an IStab on a Mael - you'd have to strip a gyrostab for that.
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
The fact that a shield tank Tempest is quite pointless is clearly besides the point...
Why is it pointless? You've got the slots for an adequate one(though certainly not great), and you want the lows clear for your damage mods.
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
Yes because having "only" 15km optimal with max damage ammo is awful (try having 3km) nevermind the option of taking a few seconds to switch to Scorch and having 40 odd km range which more than makes up for a 200 odd m/s max mwd speed.
Yeah, pulses switch range really well. Your point? The Minmatar either get in close where range doesn't matter, or they orbit at a speed where slow-tracking lasers can't hit them. It's kinda what they do - you know, the speed race? Also, it's almost a 400 m/s difference, not 200.
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
No, they have limited damage switching. Missiles have damage switching. Tracking? You do realise a Neutron T2 blaster is nearly identicle tracking to 800mm T2 AC so scratch off that less obvious advantage as none-existant.
Missiles switch damage better than projectiles, but projectiles switch better than hybrids or lasers. I'll take what I can get. And you're right about 800s and neutrons tracking similarly, but it's still a big advantage they have over pulses.
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
Clearly the extra 0.8 damage (55.2 vs 56) is worth the 1.25x cap use increase, optimal penalty, falloff penalty and tracking penalty. You get more damage from CN AM due to hit quality.
I'm also looking to be cost-efficient in my PvP fits, and Void is about 20% of the price of CN AM where I am now. And compared to AM, Void gets an optimal bonus.
Originally by: Alex Shurk
First phoon setup - no tackle, hail ammo lol, and PDS with a ****ty armour tank? seen more competent fits come from bruce.
Pest: Try tracking anything with those guns when you're moving, Also, basic gyro? Are you having a laugh? 2x Co-Proc? dear lord, son, learn how to compensate on CPU.
Mael: Christ, again with the 800s. They're crap for normal usage, terrible tracking and again with a co-proc, wasting a low.
If you're going to argue about ship balance, at least learn how to fit the things.
Of course it's not fitting tackle - I said right at the beginning of this that I was fitting for small gang - i.e., I assume a tackler. Battleships have better things to fit than webs and scrams.
Re Pest, basic is what fits. If you want to hardwire for CPU, feel free. Adds 49 DPS. Or go for a RF gyrostab, and add 68 DPS. I was trying to standardize though, so I used a basic. Sue me.
Re Mael, test your arguments. Even dropping it to 425's, it's still 18 CPU over.
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Fix the forums! |
Tress Macneille
Eight year old girls
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.03 04:59:00 -
[52]
this thread is almost as bad as large autocannons
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The Hardman
Uncle Fester's Olde Tyme Barbershoppe
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Posted - 2008.06.03 07:46:00 -
[53]
Supported. However, if ships are changed (namely the Maelstrom and the Tempest) than it might not need to be a large change? Also, change might be done with ammo.
Oh, and please don't post terrible fits in this thread.
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Papa Ina
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.03 07:58:00 -
[54]
Supported, though I'd rather see the tempest brought in line with other fleet snipers.
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Marn Prestoc
The Black Mamba's
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Posted - 2008.06.03 10:45:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Goumindong
And this matters because? 800mm T2 AC on a Mael will do more damage with hail than it will with neutron blasters. With EMP the ship will have up to 30km falloff.
Are you being dense on purpose? I never suggested using blasters on a maelstrom (that was someone else). My point is if even a ROF bonus on AC's is behind unbonused weapon how far behind do you think it is vs a bonused weapon?
Originally by: Goumindong
So now you are complaining that your low tier weapons are too good? That it hurts others more when downsizing? So we should nerf 650 ACs and 425s?
WTF did I say they were to good? Clearly the point of this topic is flying over your head, you realise how idiotic you look right now suggesting nerfing AC's? If people are gonna say "but AC's have X advantage" they might want to actually look and not just go by rumour because they'll find the advantages arn't what they think.
Originally by: Goumindong
1 damage mod on a Mega with electrons does 608 damage with no drones to 3+7km(CN AM). 0 damage mods on a tempest with 425s, siege, and hail does 594 damage with no drones to 2.4+10km. [plus launcher damage]. That is as much damage with more range.
And whats the range of the Torps? So what is the range that "as much damage with more range"? Its a limited area nevermind the lost damage from torps sig that complicates things when comparing turrets.
Originally by: Goumindong
Ahh yes, lets conveniently ignore the 6 lows on the hyperion and the 2 free high slots fir missile launchers[which do not fit in any fit on the Mega].
WTF did I compare end damage? I didn't bring drones into it either so why are you ignoring them if you bring missiles into it?
Yes because the Hyperion doesn't have a better tank so can't afford to use one of its lows on a damage mod. And yes clearly when talking about damage per turret ignoring a unbonused weapon that isn't affected by the damage mods is bad... You do realise the launchers do less DPS per tempest/mega/hyper turret so actually bring the average of the fitted weapons down.
Originally by: Goumindong
So the idea is to make the ammos do more damage but not affect the final DPS of the ships?
Why nerf 2 things and buff something else when you could just buff one thing?
My current idea is to not affect the raw damage amount but to reorder the damage types (or change the damage types of EMP) as the best ammo does not have the advantage it used to at the start of EVE and was given the lower raw damage amount because of.
No idea what 2 things am I meant to of suggested to nerf ?
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.03 11:07:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Yeah, pulses switch range really well. Your point? The Minmatar either get in close where range doesn't matter, or they orbit at a speed where slow-tracking lasers can't hit them. It's kinda what they do - you know, the speed race? Also, it's almost a 400 m/s difference, not 200.
Any reasonable (and costing less then a mothership) BS will never out-traverse a short-range BS gun outside of webrange (14km+, as being closer makes you suspectible to getting webbed) to provide any meaningful damage mitigation. This sort of comment makes me wonder if you PvP at all (or just PvP in PvE Drakes so you've got no clue about how turrets work?). Seriously.
Originally by: Herschel
Of course it's not fitting tackle - I said right at the beginning of this that I was fitting for small gang - i.e., I assume a tackler. Battleships have better things to fit than webs and scrams.
In small gangs, a part of the BS (the ones which can do so without making big sacrifices; armour tankers mainly) do fit tackle.
Reasons:
(a) Tacklers can't point a lot of people unless you've outblobbing someone and therefore have enough tacklers and enough BS. In that case, you'll probably win anyway, so it doesn't matter.
(b) Your tacklers are liable to get fried (tackler killing is almost my speciality). If your BS cannot hold a web/point, then you're not likely to score kills. In fact, without some of your BS having webs, you're likely to die.
(c) If you are not going to fit tackle, I'd suggest ECCM-ing your ship. Unless you also out-EW your opponent, in which case you'll win anyway and fittings dont matter.
(d) The Typhoon doesn't need ANY fitting mods at all. Ever. Also, fitting basic gyro and 2 fitting mods on a Tempest is pure and total fail. A third basic gyro (with all the stacking penalities PLUS being a basic piece of junk) does virtually nothing.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
DaMadness
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Posted - 2008.06.03 11:30:00 -
[57]
signed/ Minmatar haven't gotten any love in a long time
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Marn Prestoc
The Black Mamba's
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Posted - 2008.06.03 14:24:00 -
[58]
Quote:
First off, all the people *****ing about my setups, post yours, please. I'd like to see them.
My setups arn't a secret, go look on SHC.
Quote:
Fittitng mods are fitting mods - sometimes you need them. A 2-slot shield tank isn't a serious option, thus you want an armour repper, and that takes grid. But after your complaints, I see I did fit it wrong - drop the 650s to 425s, drop the PDS for a BCS II - goes from 917 DPS to 980, and you don't lose much of anything on cap or shield HP. Can even raise that to 1063 if you drop a tank mod to add another - losing an EANM costs you 8k HP and 46 DPS tanked, but gains you 83 DPS dealt. Depends how much of a glass cannon you want.
Sometimes you do, only on my dual rep Typhoon do I use a single ACR rig. Your tank is pathetic and your talking about fitting more damage mods? Seriously do you just gank people that can't shoot back? Glass cannon? More like a glass wet fish. You use a single rep setup, a medium cap booster is enough to feed it, that saves both the RCU and PDS slot for more resistances to give a big increase in tank.
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If you're going to compare it to the Mael, then yeah, it's worse at everythign but speed. The Mael is probably the best PvP battleship in the game, at least for close-in work in small gang. I'm trying to see what the Tempest can do, and this is the best answer I've found to that. That said, you'd have to be nuts to fit an IStab on a Mael - you'd have to strip a gyrostab for that.
Doesn't suprise me that you can't do anything appart from the obvious to fit your ship. Admittedly I have a +3% cpu implant (all of 20m) and named DC to fit an istab that gives me better agility than your Tempest. If being clever you could remove one of your mid tank modules for a lower CPU mod (passive em for example), named DC to save more cpu then fit the Istab with no hardwiring.
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Why is it pointless? You've got the slots for an adequate one(though certainly not great), and you want the lows clear for your damage mods.
Because the Maelstrom in a similar fit will outperform it every time.
Quote:
Yeah, pulses switch range really well. Your point? The Minmatar either get in close where range doesn't matter, or they orbit at a speed where slow-tracking lasers can't hit them. It's kinda what they do - you know, the speed race? Also, it's almost a 400 m/s difference, not 200.
Point is your doing much better DPS sooner than the ships that have to MWD (even with better speed) to the target. Orbiting battleships?!? I've heard it all, clearly you do not PvP on TQ or at least with minmatar battleships.
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Missiles switch damage better than projectiles, but projectiles switch better than hybrids or lasers. I'll take what I can get. And you're right about 800s and neutrons tracking similarly, but it's still a big advantage they have over pulses.
Its a minor difference since its so hard to get that advantage ingame due to the range/transversal you have to hit while usually webbed.
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I'm also looking to be cost-efficient in my PvP fits, and Void is about 20% of the price of CN AM where I am now. And compared to AM, Void gets an optimal bonus.
Well thats your problem if you want to be less effective.
Quote:
Of course it's not fitting tackle - I said right at the beginning of this that I was fitting for small gang - i.e., I assume a tackler. Battleships have better things to fit than webs and scrams.
Re Pest, basic is what fits. If you want to hardwire for CPU, feel free. Adds 49 DPS. Or go for a RF gyrostab, and add 68 DPS. I was trying to standardize though, so I used a basic. Sue me.
Re Mael, test your arguments. Even dropping it to 425's, it's still 18 CPU over.
Small gang and your not tackling? tackler dies then your useless.
Sounds like the typical SISI pilot with there max tanks and no tackle because "everything costs 100isk so why warp".
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Natalia Kovac
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.06.03 14:59:00 -
[59]
Tell em Marn. I think that Yamamoto guy is a Goumidong alt the amount of uniformed bull**** he spews.
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Vivien Sureflight
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Posted - 2008.06.03 16:54:00 -
[60]
Look, just because Minmatar BS aren't Gallente BS doesn't mean we need to buff them. I've fought against ALL Minmatar BS (small gang and fleet) and I have no complaints about any of them. They're actually really good. Sure, a Mega might out-damage a Tempest. But Tempest can EASILY stay out of range OR deal enough damage to kill the Mega before it has time to kill the Pest. Besides, the average BS tank in PvP is about 300-400. In a gang with just about ANY ewar, an armor tanked Pest will be easily enough to break tanks (plus damage from whoever else is in your gang). I've seen Phoons kill Hyperions solo, and (see above) a Mael kill two Hyperions at the same time. I've seen a Pest tank three Domis (admittedly, the Domi's weren't very good, but still). What are you complaining about?
Also, depending on your gang, you often don't need tackle gear on BS. No self-respecting gang has only one point. Even if your BS doesn't have one, you'll still probably have at least one (probably two) inties, a HAC and possibly a recon--all with points. The extra damage is worth the lack of tackle.
If it will shut you people up, then fine. Give them better tracking or base falloff. But increasing their damage any more is just rediculous. A Mael can already out-damage a hyperion and at longer ranges too (if the Hyp wants to fit a tank); a buff would be overkill.
And quit saying Pests are bad because they can't stand up to a Mael. That's like saying Exequrors are bad because they can't stand up to Thoraxs.
Bottom line: Minmatar are fast and versatile. They deal ENOUGH damage with their weapons (ACs, missiles and drones)to compete with any other BS.
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Give a man some fire and he'll be warm for a day. SET a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life... |
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