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[Issue] Buff Large Autocannons (especially Dual 650mms and 800mms)

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Author	Topic
Geplew Red's Swashbucklers Corp Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.06.03 17:31:00 - [61] /signed
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.03 17:58:00 - [62] Originally by: Marn Prestoc Are you being dense on purpose? I never suggested using blasters on a maelstrom (that was someone else). My point is if even a ROF bonus on AC's is behind unbonused weapon how far behind do you think it is vs a bonused weapon? And this matters because? Oh wait, it doesn't because it only matters how it performs on the ships and it performs just fine on the ships except the tempest. Quote: WTF did I say they were to good? Clearly the point of this topic is flying over your head, you realise how idiotic you look right now suggesting nerfing AC's? If people are gonna say "but AC's have X advantage" they might want to actually look and not just go by rumour because they'll find the advantages arn't what they think. 1+1=2. You see you are complaining that there is no reason to upgrade your weapons. Well **, that is the same as getting more for downgrading. You are essentially complaining that your low tier weapons are too good. If you want to lose range like blasters and lasers do, and if you want to gain less tracking like blasters and lasers do then fine i guess. Its ****, but its your decision. The only reason to buff the top ends would be if the top ends were under performing. But we just showed that the top ends weren't under performing because we have a ship performing just fine with them. Quote: WTF did I compare end damage? I didn't bring drones into it either so why are you ignoring them if you bring missiles into it? No, you didn't and that is why your argument is ****. If you took the drones away from the megathron it would suck balls because it would be doing ty dps at a tier range. So with the tempest when you ignore its two other high slots that it can actually fit and ignore its drones it sure does look ty. And while its not great because it has deficiencies in those areas it means you can fix those areas to make the ship fine. Quote: Yes because the Hyperion doesn't have a better tank so can't afford to use one of its lows on a damage mod. And yes clearly when talking about damage per turret ignoring a unbonused weapon that isn't affected by the damage mods is bad... You do realize the launchers do less DPS per tempest/mega/hyper turret so actually bring the average of the fitted weapons down. It doesn't matter if the average goes down if the final number goes up. And oh look, it does! Now if you are saying that the tempest ought to do more DPS than the Hyperion or Megathron you are just ****. Quote:** My current idea is to not affect the raw damage amount but to reorder the damage types (or change the damage types of EMP) as the best ammo does not have the advantage it used to at the start of EVE and was given the lower raw damage amount because of. No idea what 2 things am I meant to of suggested to nerf ? If you move fusion/pp to 11 base you will just nerf the lot of them since hail is 14. And faction fusion isn't coming close. The 2 things you would have to nerf would be the Phoon and the Maelstrom.
Natalia Kovac Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.06.03 21:00:00 - [63] Originally by: Vivien Sureflight Bottom line: Minmatar are fast and versatile. They deal ENOUGH damage with their weapons (ACs, missiles and drones)to compete with any other BS. No. Just wrong. The speed advantage at BS level is absolutely minimal. MINIMAL. And the agility is the same as Gallente. A Tempest can't stay out of range of anything. One Minmatar BS deals good damage, that's the Typhoon. The Tempest is useless, and the Mael has a lot of problems.
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.03 21:06:00 - [64] Originally by: Natalia Kovac Originally by: Vivien Sureflight Bottom line: Minmatar are fast and versatile. They deal ENOUGH damage with their weapons (ACs, missiles and drones)to compete with any other BS. No. Just wrong. The speed advantage at BS level is absolutely minimal. MINIMAL. And the agility is the same as Gallente. A Tempest can't stay out of range of anything. One Minmatar BS deals good damage, that's the Typhoon. The Tempest is useless, and the Mael has a lot of problems. The tempest isn't useless It's really useful if you want to see big numbers.
Alex Shurk	Posted - 2008.06.03 23:15:00 - [65] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto First off, all the people ***ing about my setups, post yours, please. I'd like to see them. k. [Typhoon, ACs] Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II X2 Internal Force Field Array I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I x3 Ballistic Control System II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I ECCM - Ladar II Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo x4 Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L/Barrage L x4 Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Ogre II x5 +1% cpu implant (sub 1mil) and it fits. outperforms your fit in every single way in real applications. Probably the only application of ACs being useful on a minnie BS, and that's mainly because it's supported by torps + drones. It's pretty common to drop 2 of the acs for neuts. Then we come to the pest fit. And it's a *. Pest is meant to be a "versatile" ship. The result of that is it loses lows to be utility mids and highs. Unfortunately, utility mids and highs are *** useless, so we end up with something that's like the phoon's **** mongoloid cousin with a shield tank, because 3-4 slot armor tanks are e. [Tempest, ACs] Gyrostabilizer II x3 Power Diagnostic System II x2 Damage Control II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II x2 Invulnerability Field II x2 Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L x6 Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo x2 Core Defence Field Extender I x3 2x Ogre/2x HH/1x Hob Less DPS and EHP than the phoon, but this is a surprisingly common fit. Its damage is actually pretty terrible because of crap drones and crap guns. We finally come to the issue at hand! 800mm ACs are craptastic and impossible to fit. Leaving ships that can benefit from them in the ter. Also shows how terrible the pest's slot layout is. If it dropped its utility highs/mide for lows it might be a very nice ship indeed (or lows for mids). And finally, the mael. It's neither here nor there. Active tank (eugh), tier 3 (eugh) and ACs (eugh.). [Maelstrom, ACs] Gyrostabilizer II x3 Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I Shield Boost Amplifier II x2 Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Invulnerability Field II x2 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L x8 Projectile Ambit Extension I x3 Ogre II x4 Again, less DPS than the phoon while having more damage mods, less EHP and a shoddy active tank. This is despite having an active tank bonus (compare the tanked dps here to a hyperion's) and having access to the higher-tier guns. So we can only come to one conclusion. Something about the typhoon is patently better than its higher tier cousins. There are actually 2 things. First its slot layout - it is (almost) ideal for a passive armour tank. Second is its weapons, yes, they're split, but they allow use of torps and drones to supplement gun DPS to frankly ludicrous levels. So, again, conclusions. The pest and the mael's slot layouts and bonuses suck specifically the pest needs to make its mind up about its slots and mael needs to passive tank (yay +HP bonus). Then, we come to ACs. Basically, they suck. Really ***** suck. It's wrong that a ship with 8 of the highest tier guns and 3 damage mods can be outdamaged by a ship with half a damage mod and split weapon systems. Yes, you can spin the arguments "But theyre versatile in range!" and "But they don't use cap!" but that doesn't hold any water when theyre being outclassed at every single turn by torps, blasters and pulse all.
Kelbesque Crystalis	Posted - 2008.06.03 23:43:00 - [66] /signed
Min Qa	Posted - 2008.06.04 00:09:00 - [67] It always bugged me that there wasnt really a benefit of fitting the larger guns sizes. Most of the DPS advantage is lost in the falloff. Also the ability to overheat webs and MWD's has made fighting in falloff harder and harder.
Octavio Santillian Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2008.06.04 00:17:00 - [68] Any honest statistical treatment of this topic is next to impossible without belching out a staggering amount of data. Not only would one have to quantify the relative value of disparate strengths and weaknesses such as tracking vs optimal vs falloff vs ammo damage vs cap usage, etc. You would have to wrap all that up into the larger set of variables that is the ships themselves. ThatÆs why these arguments go all wonky. That being said, IÆm not even going to attempt to spew a bunch of numbers, IÆm just going to state the issue as I see it. There is a problem with autocannos, and not just large ones, but it is hard to address that issue without rethinking Minmatar ships altogether. The problem is you have to throw ship bonuses, rigs, and/or damage mods at them to make them effective. On top of that you generally have to use Barrage. No other weapon system requires so much extra help to simply function viably. They simply were designed to compete in a very different iteration of Eve, and too much has to now be scarified to them to make them work well. This stretches well into Minmatar ship design. Also, Gaurm, you are partially correct: the Typhoon and Maelstrom do function. One works because it does not employ autocannos as a primary weapon system and the other function because it generally devotes 14 slots to making them work (usually 8 high, 3 low, and 3 rig). This should indicate there is a fundamental flaw with autocannos and that ships have to be engineered to overcome that inherent weakness.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.04 02:57:00 - [69] Originally by: Octavio Santillian There is a problem with autocannos, and not just large ones, but it is hard to address that issue without rethinking Minmatar ships altogether. The problem is you have to throw ship bonuses, rigs, and/or damage mods at them to make them effective. On top of that you generally have to use Barrage. No other weapon system requires so much extra help to simply function viably. Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Seriously? Maybe you should look at pulse lasers[scorch is a requirement as well as rigs, and damage bonuses and cap bonuses and...]. Or blasters which in the current situations almost never are valuable no matter what training you have? Quote: Also, Gaurm, you are partially correct: the Typhoon and Maelstrom do function. One works because it does not employ autocannos as a primary weapon system and the other function because it generally devotes 14 slots to making them work (usually 8 high, 3 low, and 3 rig). This should indicate there is a fundamental flaw with autocannos and that ships have to be engineered to overcome that inherent weakness. And Large Pulse Lasers must suck because the Apoc has to dedicate 20 slots to make them good!
Octavio Santillian Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2008.06.04 05:31:00 - [70] Originally by: Goumindong Rhetoric Goum. IÆm not going to fence with you: partially because that exactly what you want, regardless of the topic, the opponent, or the validity of your proposition; partially because I think you have a better understand of the game than some people are willing to admit; primarily, though, because this is not a thread about pulse lasers or blaster. I have made no arguments as to the viability of other weapon systems. You are welcome to start posts about how they are overpowered, underpowered, or just right till your hearts content. As I stated before, it is not easy to compare weapon systems based on raw data, as number of relevant and situational variables are staggering. BTW, I was not trying to insult you, I was agreeing with you to a certain extent. The Typhoon and the Maelstrom are function ships. I would propose, however, that the Typhoon is not an AC boat. If one fits the ship with three heavy weapon systems (800mm IIs, Siege IIs, and Ogre IIs); ACs will produce the least amount of damage by a significant amount. If you were to add damage mods, you would gain the most benefit by adding BCUs. This hardly qualifies the Typhoon as an AC boat.

Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.04 06:14:00 - [71] Originally by: Octavio Santillian because this is not a thread about pulse lasers or blaster. I have made no arguments as to the viability of other weapon systems Everything can only be valued relatively. If you are going to say something is "hard to train for" or "needs more work to be viable" then that must mean "its hard to train for compared to the alternatives" and "it needs more work to be as viable as all the others". And its just not true. They aren't really any harder to train for than anything else. Blasters for low-sec small gang work maybe. But not lasers or a complete missile set. Quote: The Typhoon and the Maelstrom are function ships. I would propose, however, that the Typhoon is not an AC boat Its irrelevant if it performs with them[and it does]. And the Maelstrom is an AC boat, and performs well with them. There are some problems with AC's regarding things that can be done to make them more new character friendly(falloff bonus on the long range tech 1 ammo), and there are things that can be done to make the tech 2 ammo a bit more reasonable(nix the optimal penalty on hail), but there is no fundamental problem with auto cannons that need fixing. Just a (small) fundamental problem with the tempest.
Dinique The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.06.04 18:26:00 - [72] Herschel Yamamoto, care to link a killboard where we can see what kind of experience you have with PvP? You're clearly nothing more than a clueless EFT warrior, your Tempest and Typhoon fits are hilarious. If you think the Tempest is a beast, that's just precious. Goum: Par for the course as far as you are concerned. Same stupid ** over and over. I don't know why Marn wastes his time arguing with you, because nothing has ever made the slightest dent in that thick head of yours. Large Projectiles need to be looked at. _____** The species has amused itself to death
Gragnor Ordos Humanitas Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.06.04 21:48:00 - [73] Minmatar BS with autocannons simply cannot compete with other ships. If they could then you would see a lot more autopests in gangs. You don't. The Maelstrom was not designed for autocannons, it is a fleet artillery ship. That makes its active tank even more of a crime. For a true gunships, this ship has some ordinary features like its lack of agility and speed. For those that say an 8% differential in speed is significant for the pest; try running away from a blasterthron in a pest. See how long you last ..... Large autocannons need loving; I believe in the form of a tracking boost with ammo tweaking. The pest needs an agility and speed boost. It tanks like a wet blanket compared to its peers so give it the ability to run away.
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.06.05 08:06:00 - [74] _________________________________________________________
Ambien Torca	Posted - 2008.06.05 19:28:00 - [75] Edited by: Ambien Torca on 05/06/2008 19:32:59 Maybe they oughta switch Fusion to highest damage ammo instead of EMP. That way you would at least be doing decent damage to most eanm II + DCII armor tankers after resists are taken into consideration [80 % exp / 20% kin]. I agree with tempest being bit meh at the moment.
RedeyeAce Demogorgon's Army	Posted - 2008.06.11 15:34:00 - [76] Totally Signed. WHen there is little or no difference between the 3 tiers of large Ac due to better tracking on the lower end and the absolutley miniscule diff in dps for fitting the larger 800's then theres no point using them.. Give us a reason to fit 800's please...
Elektrea SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:59:00 - [77] Originally by: Cilppiz PS: Maxed out char + Maelstrom fitting full rack of Neutron Blaster Cannon II's with CN AM will give 506 DPS when 800mm Repeating Artillery II's with RF EMP only adds up to 468 DPS This right here shows there is something wrong Happy HOur Minning and Industry
Dathremar Odessa Operations Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.12 04:55:00 - [78] /signed Please my poor Tempest would just like a fighting chance.
AstroPhobic	Posted - 2008.06.14 03:32:00 - [79] This idea is approved! Does less DPS at optimal (2-3km?) than other close range weapon systems... which means when you fight where you're "supposed" to, in falloff, you have EVEN less DPS. Maelstrom isn't bad, but you trade that tanking bonus for a falloff, optimal, or tracking bonus and watch this ship take the biggest nosedive in history. Typhoon is only good because 2/3rds of it's weapon systems are non-minmatar. Astro
dolmant	Posted - 2008.06.14 04:15:00 - [80] The major problem i see with auto cannons is this: they are geared to close/ medium range warfare, preferably with a ship which is faster than the opposition, which is why Med AC's work so well on a vaga. However, this concept simply does not work when applied to battleships. You ever tried to outrun a mega MWDing towards you? try to get around him, hoping his agility will allow you to get past? BS are simply too slow to use their range advantage, and with minmatar BS being as slow, big, and unwieldy as their racial counterparts, they have no advantage. Please, i am sick of the argument having a BS is better than no BS - This is BS (pardon the pun) Somebody pointed out there is not much difference between autocannon tiers - this is a problem, granted, but i would much prefer the larger problem to be solved, the impotence of the tempest. Looking at hail, the halving of falloff, demolished tracking, means even if you do theoretical on par dps with a mega (lol) you will lose due to inferior tracking, range etc. Hail makes no sense, because it dispenses with all the AC/minmatar advantages (unless your fighting another minmatar) - range (falloff reduced) and speed (tracking reduced). Posting setups does not help your argument, anyone can see a dps mega will beat a dps tempest at optimal, but in practice if the tempest gets the range, who knows? Of all this, i cant only say 3 things - a change to hail would be nice. maybe less damage, gives cap when firing? speed increase? who knows, you your imagination - difference in autocannon tiers, not much, simply make 800's do more dps, 425's less, whatever it needs to balance it, thats CCP's job to figure out - A change to the tempest. It has simply fallen out of its role. I think development as a sniper would be good, as minmatar have less viable options atm than other races. A change to artillery would compliment this (large, btw, others seem ok)

Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.06.14 04:52:00 - [81] I agree that the AC's need some love. Especially the 650mm and the 800mm would need to offer much more optimal to have a meaning of existence. _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
beor oranes Black Water.	Posted - 2008.06.14 09:56:00 - [82] I actually didn't need to read this entire topic to support it. BS AC's are shocking compared to their counterparts...same goes for Arties as well to be fair! Big support for this, though to be fair Minmatar BS need to be looked at as they are sub-par to their opposites in other races. ------------------------------------------------ Either pick a dry year when fighting wars or civilize the moronic races and have no wars at all!
Veryez	Posted - 2008.06.15 02:07:00 - [83] Large projectiles in general need to be looked at. Scaling between the guns is poor and not consistent with other weapon types. There is simply no good explanation for this (for example why the jump from middle tier large ACs to highest tier AC's should result in a smaller damage increase than going from middle tier large blasters to highest tier).
Captain Narmio Baptism oF Fire Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.06.15 02:42:00 - [84] As people have said, it's not that Minmatar weapons suck, they really don't. It's that the conditions for which they are designed are completely absent in battleship-scale fights. Whether the solution to this involves changing the guns as the OP suggested or changing one or more ships as Goum suggest I'm leaving up to CCP, but I think this should be brought to them by the council. ---------- I have discovered that with a signature, my posts look less noobish and are probably more likely to get read.
Zhongchao84	Posted - 2008.06.15 03:30:00 - [85] signed
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.16 06:46:00 - [86] I'd go with changing the Tempest first, though, with more agility, 25m3 more bandwidth (making it 100m3 bandwidth, or 4 Ogres basically) and 125m3 - 150m3 dronebay. It'd give it somewhat more punch, more flexibility for droning, and make it a proper minmatar ship. Atm, it handles bad. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2008.06.16 07:18:00 - [87] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 16/06/2008 07:25:16 The advantages of Minmatar dissapear when you get to BS size ships, and then all of a sudden the drawbacks of Minmatar start to play havoc. Minnie doesn't do great damage nor does it tank too well but they have versatility, utility speed and agility (neuts come to mind). Speed and agility are lost on BS's (normally) so they either have to be able to dish it out, or suck it up. The large auto's simply lack oomph, combine that with the Tempest's silly dronebay makes it a no go. I don't see a way to improve the ship from a fitting/tactics point of view and lets not even start about arties these days. If you look at for instance a Hurricane with a similar setup you don't gain any real dps increase no matter what you try when switching to a Tempest. The Maelstrom won't win any p!ssing contests either unless you go for a fleet setup and even then it's not something to boast about. The only BS that works quite well is a Phoon which, oddly enough, does GREAT if you completely forget about putting on turrets. So, 2 out of 3 minnie BS aren't up to par and those are turret users, the other one doesn't even USE turrets most of the time (or doesn't rely on them). So yeah, instead of looking at the ships themselves I think that stating that Large auto's need a bit of love is probably the best way to look at it.
Destovel	Posted - 2008.06.16 10:49:00 - [88] Everything has been pretty much said. I don't use battleships because of all the turret problems. Rather use Battlecruisers which are more fun and are more minmatar like than the big slow battleships. It's a shame that they aren't too great. I'm not interested in what they're going to be like once CCP changes them. I'm more interested in how are they going to be changed because the only way to do that would be changing the weapons. Making the battleships more agile/fast would go against the whole idea of battleships being the slowest but the hardest hitting boats in the game. Good luck CCP
Akyla Bears Inc Violent-Tendencies	Posted - 2008.06.16 14:43:00 - [89] I agree with this. From when choosing between missiles and projectiles on my typhoon (both the same ship-bonus), I seem to remember that: a)missiles do full damage over all ranges, while due to falloff projectiles do not b)missiles have no tracking issues, while projectiles do c)missiles also don't use cap So I was surprised when I learned that projectiles didn't do any more damage at all... making missiles quite the superior choice. Which to my oppinion makes a pretty good point for projectiles not living up to it. They should at least make a viable alternative, just with different strongpoints. ________________________________ All your honey are belong to us!
DennoTheHunter Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.06.16 16:34:00 - [90] /signed _____________________ If I am in a fair fight.... Something went wrong!

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