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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Alski
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.01 14:46:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Raniss Because, whatever happens ... ccp profits from people buying/selling isk.
Coincidence != Causation
Paraphrasing this in to a different context: "Money generated through criminal activity that is laundered through legitimate false-front businesses are taxed by the government, therefore the government won’t do anything against organised crime because they profit from it."
See how that sounds rather ridiculous?
Not saying the above example is not possible, but one tends to need proof before making such an accusation.
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(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
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Raniss
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Posted - 2008.06.01 14:51:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Alski
Originally by: Raniss Because, whatever happens ... ccp profits from people buying/selling isk.
Coincidence != Causation
Paraphrasing this in to a different context: "Money generated through criminal activity that is laundered through legitimate false-front businesses are taxed by the government, therefore the government wonĘt do anything against organised crime because they profit from it."
See how that sounds rather ridiculous?
Not saying the above example is not possible, but one tends to need proof before making such an accusation.
Hi,
I might havent been clear about this, but with what i said i tried mostly to create a discussion on this matter, rather than directly pointing with the finger. It was more to show a situation/possibility.
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Alski
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.01 14:57:00 -
[33]
Fair enough, your original post’s title and first paragraphs... err... well near all of them actually - do come across as very ‘matter of fact’ though, it reads like your all-out accusing CCP, not pondering the possibility. -
(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
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Tiptop2008
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.01 14:57:00 -
[34]
I think the OP is being very narrow minded here, there is no big conspiracy happening. CCP have limited resources, I'm sure if they could find a difinitive solution to this they would implement it. Governments throughout the world have never defeated organised crime, I'm sure CCP would have the same problems. Criminals are always one step ahead of the law
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Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
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Posted - 2008.06.01 15:02:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Raniss Hi,
I might havent been clear about this, but with what i said i tried mostly to create a discussion on this matter, rather than directly pointing with the finger. It was more to show a situation/possibility.
Well, he's discussing so there you go. Be happy.
The other part of this business is that up until the recent price increase for GTCs, CCP actually lost money when people bought GTCs from 3rd party vendors (as compared with direct CC subscription) because they offered them to said vendors at a bulk discount -- this is to say nothing of any potential losses to exchange rates incurred when European players bought GTCs in dollars from US- based GTC vendors. Which they did in droves already.
So for at least the last two years the idea that CCP kept ISK farmers as pets in order to boost GTC sales paints CCP as the Worst. Businessmen. Ever.
If you want to cobble together a conspiracy that states CCP keeps ISK sellers around simply to boost subscription rates, well... that at least is plausible, though I'd be reluctant to put any stock in that one either. What you've got here, though, is patently absurd. ___________________________________________
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate Malice.
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Posted - 2008.06.01 15:04:00 -
[36]
Raniss since you don't understand how the internet works I'll give you a quick rundown on IP addresses: Unless you pay to get one that is static (never changing, usually used by people running servers) your IP will change whenever you unplug your modem, at the very least. This means it would take a simple reboot to change your IP address and be only a 2 minute waste of time for any would be isk seller.
Meanwhile, someone else could just as easily end up being assigned that person's old IP address, meaning not only does CCP NOT permaban the isk seller, but they risk banning legit players as well.
As for going after buyers vs. sellers: It mirrors RL in this sense. There's absolutely no way for CCP to overpower the isk sellers because they're so heavily outnumbered. Just immagine this: If the average isk seller is as good at breaking rules as the average CCP employee is at enforcing them (not hard to imagine given that it's usually easier to break a rule then it is to enforce it), then CCP would need as many employees dedicated to stopping RMT as there are isk sellers. Now think of all the isk sellers out there...
The only way to really even DENT the profit of an ISK seller is to limit the demand. Guess how they can do that? 1)Make the penalties for buying isk SUCK 2)Give people a legal alternative 3)??? 4)Profit!
If CCP makes money off of the punishments they dish out to isk buyers, more power to them. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Raniss
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Posted - 2008.06.01 15:07:00 -
[37]
I just hope everyone can see the ground for my suspicion. And like i said, please, if im wrong, correct me on this matter. Like i said, im more than willing to take everything back what i said, and from the responces so far i got some more info on this matter. I also do understand this is a verry complex and that ccp in fact does alot against the isksellers/farmers as well.
Just....i hope you can see the ground for my suspicion and this i created the thread more with the idea of creating a discussion about this matter with the information i have, than making a direct insult in the direction of ccp. If i wasnt clear about (wich i probably wasnt at all), i am sorry about that since that was my mistake.
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Raniss
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Posted - 2008.06.01 15:12:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Cambarus Raniss since you don't understand how the internet works I'll give you a quick rundown on IP addresses: Unless you pay to get one that is static (never changing, usually used by people running servers) your IP will change whenever you unplug your modem, at the very least. This means it would take a simple reboot to change your IP address and be only a 2 minute waste of time for any would be isk seller.
Meanwhile, someone else could just as easily end up being assigned that person's old IP address, meaning not only does CCP NOT permaban the isk seller, but they risk banning legit players as well.
As for going after buyers vs. sellers: It mirrors RL in this sense. There's absolutely no way for CCP to overpower the isk sellers because they're so heavily outnumbered. Just immagine this: If the average isk seller is as good at breaking rules as the average CCP employee is at enforcing them (not hard to imagine given that it's usually easier to break a rule then it is to enforce it), then CCP would need as many employees dedicated to stopping RMT as there are isk sellers. Now think of all the isk sellers out there...
The only way to really even DENT the profit of an ISK seller is to limit the demand. Guess how they can do that? 1)Make the penalties for buying isk SUCK 2)Give people a legal alternative 3)??? 4)Profit!
If CCP makes money off of the punishments they dish out to isk buyers, more power to them.
Thanks for this reply, makes me understand a bit more about how this internet thing works (another eve day, another learning day). Have to admit economics and internet arent my strong points, so thanks for this insight on both sides.
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Hannobaal
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.01 15:24:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Raniss
(ps: No, i never ever bought isk with rl money nor used rl money to buy gtc's with, its just an observation on a old problem within the beautiful world of eve)
Yeah, I don't believe you.
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Alski
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.01 15:28:00 -
[40]
Some ISP’s (such as mine) also have quite sophisticated user account interfaces, I can change my IP between static and dynamic at will (with a day or so to update) and when its set to static I can request a new IP from the web interface, click confirm and a few seconds later my modem drops the line and reconnects without rebooting it… its mostly pointless and unnecessary but the level of control impresses me. >insert geek emote here<
There are also proxy servers, a simple explation of which would be: Your PC connects to a remote server, all internet traffic to and from your PC gos through the remote server, so everything you connect to, be it a webpage or Eve; only sees the IP address of the remote server, as far as anything on the internet is concerned your PC is just another PC on the network of the remote server, not an entirely separate entity with its own internet connection.
So yeah... blocking by IP address has both its own disadvantages (such as blocking legitimate users who were helplessly given a “bad” IP, being difficult to implement on a non-tempory basis like firewalls do when blocking attacks, etc) as well as being very easy to circumvent. -
(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
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Caligulus
Colinear Exemptions
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Posted - 2008.06.01 16:11:00 -
[41]
You conspiracy theory would have had more sway if you had said that the GM's go after ISK buyers the day after their accounts roll over into a new subscription period. That way CCP still makes out on that last sub period because it's "non-refundable".
On the other hand you could look at it as CCP's gracious allowance to allow you to try and right the wrong instead of banning your account outright (like they should be).
CCP is right in attacking ISK buyers instead of ISK sellers. You can ban an isk seller but they'll start up a new character in minutes. An ISK buyer has far more to lose since they're slightly more attached to their account.
If you eliminate the buyers then there is no reason for sellers to exist. ------------------------------------------------- **** You're out of your mind!
**** Well that's between me and my mind. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.06.01 16:36:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Caligulus You conspiracy theory would have had more sway if you had said that the GM's go after ISK buyers the day after their accounts roll over into a new subscription period. That way CCP still makes out on that last sub period because it's "non-refundable".
On the other hand you could look at it as CCP's gracious allowance to allow you to try and right the wrong instead of banning your account outright (like they should be).
CCP is right in attacking ISK buyers instead of ISK sellers. You can ban an isk seller but they'll start up a new character in minutes. An ISK buyer has far more to lose since they're slightly more attached to their account.
If you eliminate the buyers then there is no reason for sellers to exist.
Exactly.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Luca Muso
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Posted - 2008.06.01 16:57:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Luca Muso on 01/06/2008 16:59:57 To the OP:
Have you played any other MMO/MMORPGs? I have, almost all of them (at least the ones worth mentioning). Compared to the others EVE Online/CCP actually do a very good job in providing law and order on the subject of RMT.
If you think it is a problem for EVE Online try playing Lineage II. Almost anywhere you go in Lineage II you need to PvP farmers just to Level Up in a room/area. They are all over the place. And forget about consequences for buying Adena (Adena = ISK).
The Market system in Lineage II is completely broken because of it. Sellers can get away with selling an item for over 500% profit in some cases because buyers are willing to spend loads of RL Cash for items. It was actually akward/unusual to be someone who did not RMT in that game. EVE Online is doing well when it comes to RMT.
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Furb Killer
The Peacekeeper Core
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Posted - 2008.06.01 17:06:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Raniss
Originally by: Furb Killer 1. The reason they dont ban them all is probably that if they know who sells the isk, they can easily track it and get to the buyers. What is far more effective than trying to found the accounts everytime again when you have banned them
2. Welcome to the internet, IP-address isnt exactly hard to change...
I do understand it is far more easier to track down the buyers. But thats exactly what they want: They want the loyal eve-o player to pay for a problem only ccp can solve in some way (removing the sellers/farmers perm from the game).
I admit im not a internet geek, i barely know anything about it, but are you telling me there is virtually NO POSSIBLE WAY to do something about it?
And, ccp claims the link between iskbuying and account hacking is proven: Why dont they sue the actuall isksellers (since hacking is something forbidden in rl), since the adresses of alot of those guys are easy to find on the internet?!?!?!?!
1. Loyal eve player dont buy isk from farmers. They even can solve the problem themselves, dont buy it. 2. Yep that basicly is it. Both IP and MAC addresses can easily be changed. 3. Welcome to the real world. America is NOT the entire world. Good luck sueing chinese macro's.
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Loyal Servant
Contraband Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.01 17:18:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Loyal Servant on 01/06/2008 17:18:58
Originally by: GM Krymus
Originally by: Raniss On a sidenote: If ccp was honest to the community they would only remove the isk the person bought x1, and not x2, since that creates a negative wallet and thats EXACTLY what they want: They want you to pay rl money to buy there gtc's, because thats making them loads of rl money.
Hi,
I would be interested if you could provide the source of this information?
The part about the x2 removal is probably bunk, BUT - The fact that you do remove the il-gotten isk and that does indeed force the player, if he wants to keep playing to either sell TONS of assets, characters and/or buy GTCs does in fact, make CCP loads more money.
So, not only do you punish the person in question, and rightly so, but CCP profits from it instead of just banning the lamer.
It is all about profit. There is no information that needs to be revealed to 'prove' this obvious fact.
Edit: bad typist...
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.06.01 17:28:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Malcanis on 01/06/2008 17:27:49
Originally by: Loyal Servant Edited by: Loyal Servant on 01/06/2008 17:18:58
Originally by: GM Krymus
Originally by: Raniss On a sidenote: If ccp was honest to the community they would only remove the isk the person bought x1, and not x2, since that creates a negative wallet and thats EXACTLY what they want: They want you to pay rl money to buy there gtc's, because thats making them loads of rl money.
Hi,
I would be interested if you could provide the source of this information?
The part about the x2 removal is probably bunk, BUT - The fact that you do remove the il-gotten isk and that does indeed force the player, if he wants to keep playing to either sell TONS of assets, characters and/or buy GTCs does in fact, make CCP loads more money.
So, not only do you punish the person in question, and rightly so, but CCP profits from it instead of just banning the lamer.
It is all about profit. There is no information that needs to be revealed to 'prove' this obvious fact.
Edit: bad typist...
How does CCP profit if a player sells tons of in-game assets?
What's your suggestion? That players who break the rules be told "Hey, don't break the rules or we'll tell you not to break the rules again"?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Grarr Dexx
Naval Protection Corp
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Posted - 2008.06.01 17:30:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Loyal Servant Edited by: Loyal Servant on 01/06/2008 17:18:58
Originally by: GM Krymus
Originally by: Raniss On a sidenote: If ccp was honest to the community they would only remove the isk the person bought x1, and not x2, since that creates a negative wallet and thats EXACTLY what they want: They want you to pay rl money to buy there gtc's, because thats making them loads of rl money.
Hi,
I would be interested if you could provide the source of this information?
The part about the x2 removal is probably bunk, BUT - The fact that you do remove the il-gotten isk and that does indeed force the player, if he wants to keep playing to either sell TONS of assets, characters and/or buy GTCs does in fact, make CCP loads more money.
So, not only do you punish the person in question, and rightly so, but CCP profits from it instead of just banning the lamer.
It is all about profit. There is no information that needs to be revealed to 'prove' this obvious fact.
Edit: bad typist...
They only take away the bought isk, he still has the assets he bought with that isk, he can sell those assets again to get back to having his bank account positive. Next time, he can try making the ISK like everyone else and earning stuff the hard way, the way eve's made.
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Ragga Muffin
AWE Corporation
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Posted - 2008.06.01 17:30:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Raniss
I do understand it is far more easier to track down the buyers. But thats exactly what they want: They want the loyal eve-o player to pay for a problem only ccp can solve in some way (removing the sellers/farmers perm from the game).
Ok sorry but the "loyal eve-o player" will NEVER get hit with this problem because he isn't an idiot that buys ISK, end of story. Your "friends" you heard whatever from when they got busted well I am damn glad they got busted :) don't buy ISK, don't run into this problem.
Somebody will undoubtably bring up the "Oh I was transfering between my accounts" non-sense, yep done it in all honesty between my accounts daily numbering in the billions and never had CCP look cross-eyed at me.
P.S. these threads suck I don't know why I'm posting other then it gets under my skin now and again that these idiots still whine about this.
"Of all the things I have lost during my life I miss my mind the most." |
Vagablonde
Ouruboros Trading
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Posted - 2008.06.01 17:31:00 -
[49]
it's way easier to go after isk buyers if you know who the sellers are.
Afterall, the buyers are the problem, not the sellers. ________________ the way back home is always long, but if you're close to me i'm holding on. |
Aclyn Seriy
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.06.01 17:38:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Raniss They want the loyal eve-o player to pay for a problem only ccp can solve in some way (removing the sellers/farmers perm from the game).
Quoted because this has to be THE dumbest thing I have ever read on these or any other game forums. The simplest and easiest way to get rid of isk sellers is...............
DONT BUY ISK!!
See, its that simple, if there is no market for them to sell to, then they go away. What could be easier than that? Infact, every word you typed was waste of pixels, I strongly suggest that you go away and get some perspective, or a clue, whichever is easiest.
Originally by: techzer0 I'm the failboat captain
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Slez
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2008.06.01 19:26:00 -
[51]
LIEK OMG ITZ SO EZ TO REMOVE ISK SELLERS BECUZ I NO THIS BCUZ I HAVE A CLEW ABOUT GAME DESIGN/CODE/PROXIES/ETC.
You don't know anything about stopping isk sellers, don't pretend to have a single clue what you're going on about. -----------
Originally by: Wet Ferret If you really want to give CCP the finger you'll send your stuff to an ISK seller
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Raniss
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Posted - 2008.06.01 20:32:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Slez LIEK OMG ITZ SO EZ TO REMOVE ISK SELLERS BECUZ I NO THIS BCUZ I HAVE A CLEW ABOUT GAME DESIGN/CODE/PROXIES/ETC.
You don't know anything about stopping isk sellers, don't pretend to have a single clue what you're going on about.
Oh yeah, maybe. Now why dont YOU just explain me everything?
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Shakka Zulu
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Posted - 2008.06.01 21:52:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Mavolio CCP do alot to stop isk farmers but while ppl still buy it will always be worth ppl spening time to make the isk to sell, CCP should be harder on buyers 1 month ban + isk removed from account min.
and i'm the king of the world, what i say and what i am/do can ealsily be different.
The logic of "punish the buyers and the sellers will go away"/"punish the buyers because they are the ones choosing to buy" is... well... stupid.
The same logic would tell us that the devil is less evil than sinners, that ****** was less evil than those who did what he said, that, indeed, every mafia/criminal mastermind in the world was less evil than all of that mastermind's lackeys.
I am not saying that isk buyers are NOT in the wrong. I am saying that everyone should stop acting like its the isk buyers that are the problem. Sure, sure. It's true, that if all the buyers stopped buying, then eventually the sellers would disappear. However, it is also true that were there no sellers to begin with, there wouldn't be any buyers at all.
Eliminating the sellers is dealing directly with the problem, and is what SHOULD be done. Sitting around, wishfully thinking that maybe all those buyers will realize the error of their ways and stop supporting the sellers is just plain idiotic.
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Landrassa
Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company
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Posted - 2008.06.01 22:46:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Shakka Zulu Edited by: Shakka Zulu on 01/06/2008 21:58:42 Edited by: Shakka Zulu on 01/06/2008 21:56:41
Originally by: Mavolio CCP do alot to stop isk farmers but while ppl still buy it will always be worth ppl spening time to make the isk to sell, CCP should be harder on buyers 1 month ban + isk removed from account min.
and i'm the king of the world, what i say and what i am/do can ealsily be different.
The logic of "punish the buyers and the sellers will go away"/"punish the buyers because they are the ones choosing to buy" is... well... stupid.
The same logic would tell us that the devil is less evil than sinners, that ****** (edit - i.e. that German guy who was kind of responsible for World War II) was less evil than those who did what he said, that, indeed, every mafia/criminal mastermind in the world was less evil than all of that mastermind's lackeys.
I am not saying that isk buyers are NOT in the wrong. I am saying that everyone should stop acting like its the isk buyers that are the problem. Sure, sure. It's true, that if all the buyers stopped buying, then eventually the sellers would disappear. However, it is also true that were there no sellers to begin with, there wouldn't be any buyers at all.
Eliminating the sellers is dealing directly with the problem, and is what SHOULD be done. Sitting around, wishfully thinking that maybe all those buyers will realize the error of their ways and stop supporting the sellers is just plain idiotic... as is harshly punishing those who are lured into violation of CCP policy because CCP is unwilling to eliminate the real problem.
Emm yah. So the isk sellers are the real evil? They wouldn't be here if there weren't demand for what they're selling. As for the presence of isk sellers being the cause of isk buying, give me a break. Some people are just lazy/stupid/blind/all of the above.
And what exactly is wrong with punishing those who break the rules? They're bloody lucky they get off with just having their ill-gotten isk removed.
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Azzma
TalCorp Enterprises Einherjar Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.01 23:02:00 -
[55]
I think ISK selling should be legal. CCP will never stop it, and the more they *****down on it the more valuable that service will become.
Supply and Demand.
And I give the OP benefit of the doubt.
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Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.02 00:17:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Raniss Edited by: Raniss on 01/06/2008 13:53:29 Its obvious.
The reason ccp doesnt (want to do) jack about isksellers, is because its their #1 source of profit: Instead of removing isksellers/farmers completely from the game by ip-banning them, they go after the iskbuyers..
People should have to pass a test before being allowed online. IP bans do nothing.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.02 01:02:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Azzma I think ISK selling should be legal. CCP will never stop it, and the more they *****down on it the more valuable that service will become.
Supply and Demand.
And I give the OP benefit of the doubt.
unless you know, you use the isk buying system in place by CCP.
which in fact is what CCP is doing about the issue.
They have set up a way that gives CCP money, give a players who is not injecting isk into the econmy a month of game time for 200 million isk out of his pocket he uses to play the game, and it gives another players the abilty to have 200 million isk.
In fact this is the biggest thing CCP is doing.
Sure it limits you to buying about 300 million isk a month but... why would need more?
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Cutie Chaser
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.02 01:05:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Raniss
I admit im not a internet geek, i barely know anything about it, but are you telling me there is virtually NO POSSIBLE WAY to do something about it?
YES!
If you do find a way, I know some people who would like to know *** Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers. |
Jmanis Catharg
Stickler inc
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Posted - 2008.06.02 01:14:00 -
[59]
Punishing the ISK buyers is the halfway step to punishing isk sellers. And CCP *do* punish the ISK sellers. I've seen far less of them about the game lately.
IP banning won't do squat against them, unless you want to ban the entire IP address range for Europe, US and Australasia.
As for "These guys are good RL mates so I can trust them",, you've obviously never had good RL friends go to prison for theft, or had good RL mates sleep with your girlfriend, and more importantly lie about it. Or any other manner of untrustworthy acts for that point.
If people lie about that sorta thing, what's lying about ISK buying and it's circumstances between mates?
Personally, I don't care if they take twice, three times or more, hell, give ISK buyers negative eleventy-billion and have them enter an unleaveable corn field on login akin to second life banning for all I care. You want to play a game where you can use your RL currency to get ahead through standard game mechanics without using one similar to the GTC mechanic, go play one. (and PS, that's not directed at the OP, it's directed at isk-buyers).
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Zeba
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.06.02 01:23:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Zeba on 02/06/2008 01:23:07
This is probably unfair to CCP but tbh every time I see one of these threads pop up it reminds me of this episode of The n00b.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
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