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Riethe
Invictus Sovereignty
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Posted - 2008.06.02 10:59:00 -
[31]
Manually processing every bet? What, are you only expecting like 3 bets a month? How does that work out to be massive profit?
Also, if you did it right, you wouldn't need any funding.
You could use the money from people who bet and lose to pay the people who bet and win.
Then just scrape 5% off of each bet for your profit, and skip the whole IPO crap completely.
Anyway, figure out a better way to handle the bets. Having 3 back and forth transactions between you and random people will consume far too much time.
First you will have to wait for someone to bet. Then they will have to wait for you to "process it" and reply to them. Then you have to wait for them to reply to you.
You know something I know that you don't?
Have you ever seen that infomercial for that damn microwave oven that has the slogan, "Set it and forget it?"
That is how people invest.
They see your thread and go, "oh, okay, this guy doesn't seem like a complete jerk, I'm going to send him a billion ISK."
Then they go AFK TORNADO for 3 months and just watch the dividends roll in, and mostly don't give a damn about you or what you're doing, and definitely don't want to talk to you.
Trust me, I know these things.
There will be like 2 major nerds who actually care about your IPO and will hassle you every once and awhile about it being a scam or something.
But everyone else just doesn't care enough to contribute that much effort.
People only really start to care when something seems wrong.
The point is, who the hell wants to spend 6 hours of their day playing footsie with you over eve-mails just to make sure their bet went through.
You need a real time system, either a coded web page with a database and a live feed, hooking into your API and your wallet and all that codey stuff.
Or maybe, you can send a wish up to heaven for a miracle, because if you don't do all those things, it works out to be a ridiculous hassle for everyone involved.
Just a few days into the IPO and you will probably end up shooting yourself in the head with the way you have it planned out now.
Good luck on the revision.
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Viktor Amand
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Posted - 2008.06.02 11:00:00 -
[32]
You'd tire extremely quickly doing everything manual and probably kill the IPO early. 
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Riethe
Invictus Sovereignty
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Posted - 2008.06.02 11:03:00 -
[33]
 Originally by: Viktor Amand
You'd tire extremely quickly doing everything manual and probably kill the IPO early.
Boy don't make me get all up ins your business
Writing things that I wrote first but with less letters WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE MR. SMARTY PANTS
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Aleric Vikyz
AnTi.
Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.02 11:07:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Aleric Vikyz on 02/06/2008 11:07:52
Oh ffs. I give up.
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Taikun
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Posted - 2008.06.02 11:14:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Taikun on 02/06/2008 11:14:28
Originally by: Aleric Vikyz
Edited by: Aleric Vikyz on 02/06/2008 11:07:52
Oh ffs. I give up.
/sigh...
Even when drunk and loaded with coke and meth I don't make the same mistake twice.
You sir are a complete goober. 
Taikun
A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation. |
Riethe
Invictus Sovereignty
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Posted - 2008.06.02 11:16:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Riethe on 02/06/2008 11:16:56
Edited by: Riethe on 02/06/2008 11:16:44
Edited by: Riethe on 02/06/2008 11:16:06
Originally by: Taikun
/sigh...
Even when drunk and loaded with coke and meth I don't make the same mistake twice.
You sir are a complete goober.
Taikun
Back in Cali the nickname we had meth was "Methlies quick"
Tell me that isn't a damn awesome name for a drug.
edit: why the hell am i talking in italics
edit2: i found the problem but i refuse to fix it.
edit3: hey whats up
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Aleric Vikyz
AnTi.
Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.02 11:17:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Aleric Vikyz on 02/06/2008 11:17:47
Originally by: Taikun
You sir are a complete goober.
Don't I know it.
Edit: At least this forum's a little less drab this morning.
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Taikun
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Posted - 2008.06.02 11:39:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Taikun on 02/06/2008 11:39:57
Originally by: Aleric Vikyz
Don't I know it.
Edit: At least this forum's a little less drab this morning.
You are dead right.
The forums have been bloody boring for FAR too long.
Cheers,
Taikun
P.S. I still reserve the right to call ya a goober for the hell of it.
A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation. |
Vhaluus
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Posted - 2008.06.02 11:45:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Riethe
Manually processing every bet? What, are you only expecting like 3 bets a month? How does that work out to be massive profit?
Also, if you did it right, you wouldn't need any funding.
You could use the money from people who bet and lose to pay the people who bet and win.
Then just scrape 5% off of each bet for your profit, and skip the whole IPO crap completely.
Anyway, figure out a better way to handle the bets. Having 3 back and forth transactions between you and random people will consume far too much time.
First you will have to wait for someone to bet. Then they will have to wait for you to "process it" and reply to them. Then you have to wait for them to reply to you.
You know something I know that you don't?
Have you ever seen that infomercial for that damn microwave oven that has the slogan, "Set it and forget it?"
That is how people invest.
They see your thread and go, "oh, okay, this guy doesn't seem like a complete jerk, I'm going to send him a billion ISK."
Then they go AFK TORNADO for 3 months and just watch the dividends roll in, and mostly don't give a damn about you or what you're doing, and definitely don't want to talk to you.
Trust me, I know these things.
There will be like 2 major nerds who actually care about your IPO and will hassle you every once and awhile about it being a scam or something.
But everyone else just doesn't care enough to contribute that much effort.
People only really start to care when something seems wrong.
The point is, who the hell wants to spend 6 hours of their day playing footsie with you over eve-mails just to make sure their bet went through.
You need a real time system, either a coded web page with a database and a live feed, hooking into your API and your wallet and all that codey stuff.
Or maybe, you can send a wish up to heaven for a miracle, because if you don't do all those things, it works out to be a ridiculous hassle for everyone involved.
Just a few days into the IPO and you will probably end up shooting yourself in the head with the way you have it planned out now.
Good luck on the revision.
In a perfect world with nice even statistical distribution you're right. I wouldn't need an IPO, I wouldn't need startup funds and I wouldn't need anyone to provide those for me. unfortunately our world is imperfect and I've seen bookies run at huge loses for 2-3 months despite the fact they were very knowledgeable.
However you are correct that there is too much tedium involved. Not for me, as someone who has worked in the business I can process transactions incredibly quickly but because its going to scare off clients.
Ideally a system like Mr Horizontal suggested, with simply allowing people to place bets against each other, would be preferable. However I remain utterly unconvinced that, despite the huge population of eve, there are going to be enough initial players participating for this to be effective. To look at current betting systems: you have the link posted previously in this thread which seems to have maybe 10 customers, lottery systems that with the exception of BIG use a single ball to determine the outcome... now I believe the customer base for something such as what I'm proposing can be created but in order for that to happen I have to constantly attract new customers and keep the old ones which won't happen if 90% of all bets placed don't end up finding someone to take them.
So yes as I've already said, the handshake type system I proposed will be scrapped, while secure it was never going to work in the real world. Automation will be included and I've always intended for it to be, however now because of that change it will be able to handle things with much less intervention. Odds will be adjusted automatically based on bets received with me simply controlling the baseline as it were.
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Roguehalo
RH Ship Brokers
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Posted - 2008.06.02 12:21:00 -
[40]
Wouldn't fixed odds betting be the way to go?
Just accept bets based on some rl companies' published list of events and odds for them.
I'm not sure whether there would be any copyright issues in doing this, but it is 'virtual' money we are talking about here 
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Coconut Joe
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.02 12:34:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Riethe
Manually processing every bet? What, are you only expecting like 3 bets a month? How does that work out to be massive profit?
Also, if you did it right, you wouldn't need any funding.
This is the main problem with this IPO proposal. He's either going to have to mark everything manually which will be very time consuming and will probably result in Vhaluus getting bored and disapearing.
Or he's going to have to write the logic to do it himself. I've created the logic and accomanying website for just one of those sports, football, and it took 6 months to design, implement and test.
So basically, this idea's going nowhere.
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Eve IGB Store Template - The complete eve retail solution. |
EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.06.02 13:00:00 -
[42]
Ok so I haven't really commented too much on this yet as I wanted to let others get their words in first.
Thought I must admit I never actually knew of www.rls-eve.com until Ray linked it on Page 1. That is almost exactly what I envisioned for a betting agency. One that runs bets through the API and is mostly of automated status.
If you plan to have this as an endeavour that lasts for a few weeks then no-one ever uses it again keep the design as it is now. It's destined to be forgotten. However, spend some time looking at the www.rls-eve.com designs, try and see their pro's and con's. Try and see ways you could improve on their system, ways you can compete. You need to provide a service of equal or greater value to www.rls-eve.com.
One of the coders of that site also runs isksense a very respected advertising for Eve agency.
Interestingly enough I spent some time on www.rls-eve.com. I even threw in bets on most of the topics. However I found the gambling there was quite small and limiting. Maybe they aren't getting their name out enough, maybe it's only a new service but it's quite a shame seeing a very well designed interface and system such as that not get the attention it deserves.
To the OP, you definetly brought something new to the table. Now, you say you didn't do it based on my posts over the last few days. However your operation really does look hasty. Much like EBANK, you need to try and automate as much as possible if you have any real vision and expectation behind the project.
Your customer's don't like change. Few people like change. You need to release a standardised interface of some form. And then build off that. But if you start with dodgy spreadsheets and eve-mail (ugh) contact systems then when changing TO the automated system it will cause your clients to need to change the way they do things. Which is bad.
Anyway now that I see www.rls-eve.com I honestly think you need to figure out a way to beat them, join them, or offer something on different wavelengths to them. Maybe sweeps based, who knows, but it needs to separate the two brands. Hell you might be able to release a sub-standard alternative and with enough advertising exceed your competition.
Design an open source Bingo gaming client. I will get in on that 
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Proton Power
Power Corrupts Tech
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Posted - 2008.06.02 13:15:00 -
[43]
Why has www.rls-eve.com not advertised more? Seems automated so easy for them to run, and I would have been betting on games for a long time to come now.
I hope they do somthing to bet on any game and such that I want. Things may have just gotten interesting in Eve for me...
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http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=439797Cli |
EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.06.02 13:54:00 -
[44]
Yeh you can really go nuts on their interface and open up all kinds of gambling options. I don't want to diminish the OP's idea too much by talking about them but they have an excellent foundation. A bit of marketting and some additional content and I reckon they could make it big.
However they have nowhere where they talk of the way payments are divided and the likes. Would probably be good to find out precisely how it's done as there are varied ways splits can be done in that kind of betting pool.
Sorry Vhaluus, if I were you I would be really p1ssed off that people show up in my thread and talk of my competitor's service.
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Vhaluus
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Posted - 2008.06.02 14:40:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Vhaluus on 02/06/2008 14:42:02
I will not pretend its ideal however the fact is that unless I feel I can offer a superior product to them, I will not start this. If I AM offering a superior product, I have much less to worry about.
with initial odds being set by me and the rest of the functions done automatically I do honestly feel that I can offer a superior service and one that people would prefer to use (I know that as a gambler, there is no way I'd touch the sweepstakes site for the simple fact that my odds can vary far, far too much based upon what others may do).
I am in the process of looking through the API documentation and establishing the most efficient way to do whats needed.
I have however realized that asking the stockholders to select a person to restrict my access to funds is probably more bother than most want to deal with and yet I feel I need someone trusted by the community to make sure I don't immediately bolt with the money if I am to proceed with this plan.
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Proton Power
Power Corrupts Tech
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Posted - 2008.06.02 15:04:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Vhaluus
Edited by: Vhaluus on 02/06/2008 14:42:02
I will not pretend its ideal however the fact is that unless I feel I can offer a superior product to them, I will not start this. If I AM offering a superior product, I have much less to worry about.
with initial odds being set by me and the rest of the functions done automatically I do honestly feel that I can offer a superior service and one that people would prefer to use (I know that as a gambler, there is no way I'd touch the sweepstakes site for the simple fact that my odds can vary far, far too much based upon what others may do).
I am in the process of looking through the API documentation and establishing the most efficient way to do whats needed.
I have however realized that asking the stockholders to select a person to restrict my access to funds is probably more bother than most want to deal with and yet I feel I need someone trusted by the community to make sure I don't immediately bolt with the money if I am to proceed with this plan.
Will you take a 200 million isk bet on Lakers at Boston. I get 2.5pts with Lakers per current sports books?
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http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=439797Cli |
Pies
Exanimo Inc
Anarchy.
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Posted - 2008.06.02 15:06:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Vhaluus
I am in the process of looking through the API documentation and establishing the most efficient way to do whats needed.
This brought me to something that I believe has been overlooked so far. How capable are you of developing the website and automated systems that are required for the IPO? I don't recall you mentioning, perhaps I missed it. Such a system would take a while to plan and develop. Would you develop a prototype before the final IPO is available to the public?
___________________
Tasty... |
Vhaluus
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Posted - 2008.06.02 15:17:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Proton Power
Originally by: Vhaluus
Edited by: Vhaluus on 02/06/2008 14:42:02
I will not pretend its ideal however the fact is that unless I feel I can offer a superior product to them, I will not start this. If I AM offering a superior product, I have much less to worry about.
with initial odds being set by me and the rest of the functions done automatically I do honestly feel that I can offer a superior service and one that people would prefer to use (I know that as a gambler, there is no way I'd touch the sweepstakes site for the simple fact that my odds can vary far, far too much based upon what others may do).
I am in the process of looking through the API documentation and establishing the most efficient way to do whats needed.
I have however realized that asking the stockholders to select a person to restrict my access to funds is probably more bother than most want to deal with and yet I feel I need someone trusted by the community to make sure I don't immediately bolt with the money if I am to proceed with this plan.
Will you take a 200 million isk bet on Lakers at Boston. I get 2.5pts with Lakers per current sports books?
The gambler in me says no, such a bet will send me broke if I loose. However I do have the ability to cover such a bet, so in the hopes of possibly generating some goodwill amongst the community I will take your bet.
Originally by: Pies
Originally by: Vhaluus
I am in the process of looking through the API documentation and establishing the most efficient way to do whats needed.
This brought me to something that I believe has been overlooked so far. How capable are you of developing the website and automated systems that are required for the IPO? I don't recall you mentioning, perhaps I missed it. Such a system would take a while to plan and develop. Would you develop a prototype before the final IPO is available to the public?
I didn't mention it specifically, but as I said in my personal information I am majoring in business systems engineering so I am confident I have the ability to code the system. The API itself seems simple enough and will simply be a matter of converting from the xml output it provides and scanning for appropriate entries from what I can see.
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Proton Power
Power Corrupts Tech
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Posted - 2008.06.02 15:38:00 -
[49]
Confirmed Bet -
Me - Lakers +2.5pts on June 5th 2008 (1st Game of Series)
200mil Isk.
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http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=439797Cli |
Vhaluus
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Posted - 2008.06.02 15:41:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Proton Power
Confirmed Bet -
Me - Lakers +2.5pts on June 5th 2008 (1st Game of Series)
200mil Isk.
indeed. good luck to you .
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Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.06.02 16:27:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Tasko Pal on 02/06/2008 16:33:11
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Vhaluus
would you care to elaborate? the last thing I want to do is get myself or anyone else involved in trouble.
I'm told that there is already a service for betting isk on out of game events/sports. However myself I think that the clauses 9, 10, 11 might be too close to this issue. Mind you I'm very very anal when it comes down to the EULA.
In my view, 9 has little to no bearing on the issue, unless he spams people with adverts in chat channels or via evemail or (excessively) on the forums. 10 is OK, since the service provided is fundamentally in-game and is paid for with in-game currency. 11 is also almost certainly ok, since the service provided is directly related to eve - a facility for betting with virtual currency.
Also, the fact http://www.rls-eve.com/ has already been operating for some time, and that people have been running in-game lotteries based on various real-life national lottery draws for as long as I've been playing, strongly suggests that the EULA isn't going to be a problem.
You're not directly competing with rls, since you're offering quite a different sort of bet - I'd suggest that you consider acting as a more general betting exchange, possibly using EBANK affiliate accounts to hold isk.
I too am keen on betting markets. Too bad I don't have the RL time otherwise I'd probably be working on exactly this. Something that bothers me here is that it's not clear why you need to IPO or how much isk you plan to raise. A good bookie doesn't need a lot of capital. The trick is to shuffle the risk to other bettors. In fact, using real money market data sounds a moderately bad idea since you get exposed to more risk than a more neutral bookie would get. It seems better just to get the betting service started and worry about making more isk after you have established the business.
[added stuff because I pressed "post" too soon,]
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Vhaluus
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Posted - 2008.06.02 16:39:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Tasko Pal
Edited by: Tasko Pal on 02/06/2008 16:33:11
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Vhaluus
would you care to elaborate? the last thing I want to do is get myself or anyone else involved in trouble.
I'm told that there is already a service for betting isk on out of game events/sports. However myself I think that the clauses 9, 10, 11 might be too close to this issue. Mind you I'm very very anal when it comes down to the EULA.
In my view, 9 has little to no bearing on the issue, unless he spams people with adverts in chat channels or via evemail or (excessively) on the forums. 10 is OK, since the service provided is fundamentally in-game and is paid for with in-game currency. 11 is also almost certainly ok, since the service provided is directly related to eve - a facility for betting with virtual currency.
Also, the fact http://www.rls-eve.com/ has already been operating for some time, and that people have been running in-game lotteries based on various real-life national lottery draws for as long as I've been playing, strongly suggests that the EULA isn't going to be a problem.
You're not directly competing with rls, since you're offering quite a different sort of bet - I'd suggest that you consider acting as a more general betting exchange, possibly using EBANK affiliate accounts to hold isk.
I too am keen on betting markets. Too bad I don't have the RL time otherwise I'd probably be working on exactly this. Something that bothers me here is that it's not clear why you need to IPO or how much isk you plan to raise. A good bookie doesn't need a lot of capital. The trick is to shuffle the risk to other bettors. In fact, using real money market data sounds a moderately bad idea since you get exposed to more risk than a more neutral bookie would get. It seems better just to get the betting service started and worry about making more isk after you have established the business.
[added stuff because I pressed "post" too soon,]
using a bookie is there to establish what is viewed as the current odds which then will be adjusted based on the bets I recieve to try and, as you said, balance out risk by taking bets on the other side.
I need the IPO because a good bookie not only needs starting funds, they do have to have resilience. No matter how good you think you are at predicting results you HAVE to be prepared to occasionally suffer a loss for a small period of time and in all honesty I do not have the funds for this.
As for how much I am raising, this was just to see if there was interest amongst the forum in investing in the idea, now that I have confirmed that there is indeed some interest I will be getting the website up and coming back with the proper IPO which will include how much I am trying to raise etc.
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Banni Vinda
The Ninja Coalition
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Posted - 2008.06.04 09:09:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Banni Vinda on 04/06/2008 09:09:32
From here:
Quote:
Please note that betting ISK on real life events is not allowed on the forums,thus your thread gets locked.
Now, that post was from 2 years ago, when someone was looking to set up a World Cup betting pool, but it's unlikely things have changed in the meantime. So I think you might be out of luck on this one unfortunately. Of course, that reply does state 'on the forums'...
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Vhaluus
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Posted - 2008.06.04 16:22:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Vhaluus on 04/06/2008 16:25:58
to keep everyone updated: I have heard back from the GMs and they have confirmed that this is perfectly acceptable both within the EULA and ToS. The only note they made was to make sure I gave a reason for each payout so it's not confused as isk selling.
The website and API interacing is currently under development and I'm seeking a host. I hope to have the finalized, fully automated web site set up in about a week, two at most with an IPO made at that time.
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2008.06.04 17:13:00 -
[55]
The best group to do this would be EBank!!
They could just offer a betting service on their website, like the Betfair model in the UK.
Set up a non-interest paying betting account. People with accounts propose bets on the website in ISK with odds, and other betting account holders bet them. Ebank takes a 5% cut of the total bet. The website could handle all of it.
I would be interested in that.
example:
Cosmoray puts up 100m ISK on the website that Italy beats France in Euro 08. Someone matches it. 200m pot, Ebank takes 5%. The winning bet money (190m) transfers to his account.
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Mr Horizontal
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.04 17:45:00 -
[56]
Originally by: cosmoray
The best group to do this would be EBank!
Indirectly only.
EBANK is a bank, not a betting agency. I have enough trouble warding off the other directors' ideas to avoid diluting the product with featurespam as it is. EBANK is only about financial services only.
Now, we will introduce an API in time so transactions can be handled via EBANK (kind of like PayPal), but the core business of the betting has to be done by someone else who uses EBANK as a clearing house.
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.06.04 17:52:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Vhaluus
I need the IPO because a good bookie not only needs starting funds, they do have to have resilience. No matter how good you think you are at predicting results you HAVE to be prepared to occasionally suffer a loss for a small period of time and in all honesty I do not have the funds for this.
A good bookie doesn't have to predict results. They can pass on any risk to the bettors. That's the point I was making. Sure if you have the funds, you can dip in and take some risks using knowledge of outside markets, but you don't have to. The isk to cover the 1 in 100 longshots can be obtained from the 99 in 100 "sure" bets.
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Hexxx
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Posted - 2008.06.04 18:55:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Mr Horizontal
Originally by: cosmoray
The best group to do this would be EBank!
Indirectly only.
EBANK is a bank, not a betting agency. I have enough trouble warding off the other directors' ideas to avoid diluting the product with featurespam as it is. EBANK is only about financial services only.
Now, we will introduce an API in time so transactions can be handled via EBANK (kind of like PayPal), but the core business of the betting has to be done by someone else who uses EBANK as a clearing house.
/me is one of those Directors 
Mr. H does a fantastic job of reminding some of us when we stray from the "path". He is absolutely 100% correct here. EBANK would only be involved when it comes to moving the money.
Director | www.eve-bank.net
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TRI VETRA
Extraterrestrial Combat Unit
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.06.04 19:05:00 -
[59]
Edited by: TRI VETRA on 04/06/2008 19:05:16
Originally by: Vhaluus
EBet IPO Plan
That's a great name for an IPO.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ebat
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2008.06.04 19:15:00 -
[60]
Well if someone came up with a website, and Ebank handled the money transfers/escrow then that would generate a large amount of credibility.
I would happily wager ISK with EBank holding the escrow, probably wouldn't with a relative unkown.
I am sure EBank and a third party gambling site, could come up with a commision structure. Say 2.5% each for 5% total.
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