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Shnergin
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Posted - 2008.06.01 20:25:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Shnergin on 01/06/2008 20:27:40
Local chat is in my opinion the number one intel gathering tool used by every pilot in lowsec and 0.0 space (highsec as well I suppose). I don't believe it was ever CCP's intention for it to be used this way, but that's the way it is. Whenever someone enters a system, anyone paying attention to local chat will see that player show up, and can instantly know if they should run, log out, or start hunting them. It is still possible to get snuck up on when not paying attention to local, just as it is possible for a piracy target or war target to sneak by you when you're not paying attention, however it's a lot harder for any sneaking to happen at all.
I'm trying to convey the fact that local chat makes things easier for NPCer/miners to avoid pirates as well as well as making it easier for pirates/warring corps to find targets. Hence a removal of all or part of the intel gathering features of local chat would make things harder for BOTH sides.
Now, the first feature of local chat that I am suggesting be removed is the instantaneous display of a player's name and portrait to the chat window of other players when they enter the system, as well as the instantaneous display of everyone else's names and portraits to that player upon entering the system. This quite frankly gives everyone too much info without having to work for it. I suggest that this feature be changed to the delayed chat update that displays a persons name and portrait only when someone speaks in local chat. This would, as I said, make it harder for both predator and prey, so it wouldn't cause any imbalance. Second, it would make the game so much more fun, which is of course the point of a game. You could enter a system as a pirate and not know if it was chock full of NPCers and miners ripe for the picking, or if you would be chasing other pirates around the whole time (lol). As an NPCer/miner you would have just a little more adrenaline pumping through your veins (mining and adrenaline? Who would've thunk it?) because you never know when a pirate would show up on the scanner.
What's that Shnergin? Scanner you say? Yes you would most definitely still have some warning of a pirate being in the system because they would show up on the scanner when close enough. After all, they usually try to use the directional scanner to find you, and if they can see you on the scanner then you can see them. You only see their ship of course, but if an interceptor or recon ship shows up on your scanner, you can be fairly certain it is a pirate tackler perhaps for a larger gang not on the scanner... yet.
Now, not all information from local would or could be removed. For instance I'm fairly certain that you would still be notified when someone enters a system because the little number that indicates how many people are in local might have to stay. I say this because that information is accessible, in a way, through the galaxy map by coloring stars by "average pilots in space in the last 30 minutes". I'm not sure if this information is delayed, and I know it doesn't technically show you the current local count, but an increase in this number over time indicates someone jumped in. Personally I would like the number of people in local to be removed as well, but if that means people will resort to constant checking of the galaxy map, then don't take it out just to cause an annoyance like that.
One last area that needs to be covered is when someone's portrait should disappear from local chat. A timer from when they last spoke would be most appropriate I think, as having them disappear only when they leave system would provide unneeded intel and discourage talking.
Getting close to my character limit, so let me know what you think. If you would suggest different changes then post them and give a thumbs up only for the opinion that local needs some kind of change.
This is my main and only character. It might just be my first post, I don't recall.
Edit: grammar
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Shnergin
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Posted - 2008.06.01 20:31:00 -
[2]
Just want a little room here to link to (possible) later replies and ideas in (possible) future pages of the thread. And to give myself a thumbs up  .
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.01 21:00:00 -
[3]
On one hand, reconnaissance is a good thing, especially in a game - you don't want pirates getting even more bored for lack of a target. On the other hand, too much recon is a bad thing, since it makes things too easy for all involved. The goal should be for any player who is looking to be able to find, without too much difficulty, and to make chat channels not be an intel source.
The bit about making local not be an intel source is easy enough - either make it an optional channel(along with Corp and Alliance, for that matter - why does the game force me to keep open windows I don't want?), or make it a faces-not-shown channel like NPC corp chat, or even both.
But there needs to be compensation - you can't just have everybody flying around blind. The current on-board scanner is a good start, but it needs some work. For starters, its range is too short for a proper system scanner - I know why it's 2,147,483,647 metres(2^31-1, for those of you less mathematically inclined), but 14.3 AU isn't nearly enough for a system scanner. How about you remove that cap, and make the time go from being a flat scan time to being based on how much volume you're scanning? Say 1 second per AU at 5 degrees, 2 at 30, 3 at 60, 4 at 90, 6 at 180, and 10 at 360? Have a skill that reduces scan times by 10% per level or something, just to make it not take an obscenely long time for bigger scans.
Also, there needs to be some refinements to the process. First off, the aim point for the scan needs to be made explicit - perhaps have a "scan cone" show up when you have the scanner window open. Secondly, while filtering by overview settings is nice, some added filtering options are needed, most notably "Exclude last scan's results". Also, I'm tempted to suggest either an advanced skill or a module to allow you to get better results from your scan data - here's a (very) rough draft of what I mean:
Scan Filtering - Rank 3, Science tree(Int primary, Mem secondary)
This skill allows the on-board scanner to receive added information when scanning.
Level 1 allows display of the object's type(e.g., Drake/Caldari Control Tower Small) instead of merely its class(e.g., Ship/Starbase Structure)
Level 2 allows display of the object's current speed
Level 3 allows display of whether the object is currently occupied
Level 4 allows display of object's current HP(if you want this skill to be really good, make it absolute HP, if you want it to be less good, just a percentage of each type)
Level 5 allows display of the object owner's name(i.e., ship pilot or POS owning corp - this will be autolinked to allow for fast Show Info)
It'd be cheap and have pretty low requisites, to allow new players to make use of it properly.
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Fix the forums! |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.01 21:06:00 -
[4]
This is stupid:
For more information, see this
Cloaking ships are already powerful enough, there is no reason to make them the only ship worth flying for roaming.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.01 21:14:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Goumindong
This is stupid:
For more information, see this
Cloaking ships are already powerful enough, there is no reason to make them the only ship worth flying for roaming.
What if they added a skill that gave you a chance to scan through a cloak(say, 10% per level for a standard cloak, and 5% per level for a cov ops cloak)? Would that address your balance concerns? You do have a very good point here, but I'm loath to say that the current form of local is the only solution to the problem of cloaks being too good.
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Fix the forums! |
Shnergin
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Posted - 2008.06.01 21:35:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Goumindong
This is stupid:
For more information, see this
Cloaking ships are already powerful enough, there is no reason to make them the only ship worth flying for roaming.
I agree that the main problem will be with cloaking ships. I know they don't show up on probe scans, but I was under the impression that they showed up on directional scans. Just a week ago I was able to see a force recon ship sneaking up on me using the directional scanner (and I let it happen so I could fight him). If cloaked ships don't show up on the directional scanner, then it will be easy for them to sneak up on an NPCer/miner making this change unbalanced towards piracy. Perhaps a slight change needs to be made to cloaks too then, either Herschel's suggestion, or perhaps making them show up on the directional scanner 100% of the time, but with no distance listed. Then if you happen to notice them on the scanner, you don't know if they're right next to you, or at a planet.
On the topic of surprise attacks, it's entirely possible under my proposed changes to sneak up on an NPCer/miner in an uncloaked ship by NOT scanning for it, and simply warping to a belt that is out of scan range and hoping to get lucky. You'll only show up on the NPCer/miner's scanner for the few seconds of warping, however you have no guarantee that anyone will be at the belt to attack.
I think that some ability to sneak around the directional scanner's limitations is a good thing, but that cloaked ships with a gang out of scan range will be bad for gameplay.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.01 22:50:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Goumindong on 01/06/2008 22:52:53
Originally by: Shnergin
I know they don't show up on probe scans, but I was under the impression that they showed up on directional scans
Nope, they do not when they are cloaked. Are you sure it was a force recon and not a combat recon you were looking at?
If you read the link you will understand why you can't just let cloaking ships show up on the scanner even in that manner.
Any mechanic that replaces local needs to have pretty much the same functionality as local does currently.
You need to be able to know who is in system and you need to be able track them down and kill them, if you do not, risk is increased. People will blob up, gate camps will become more powerful as will traps of all sort. Combat will become more scarce as people are more hesitant to engage without clear superiority and larger as people cling to numbers for security.
The problems associated with local have little to nothing to do with the mechanic itself, but the mechanics that allow you to run from combat. Specifically cloaking and logging off. Fix the problems associated with running and you fix all the complaints about the local channel.
Quote:
On the topic of surprise attacks, it's entirely possible under my proposed changes to sneak up on an NPCer/miner in an uncloaked ship by NOT scanning for it, and simply warping to a belt that is out of scan range and hoping to get lucky. You'll only show up on the NPCer/miner's scanner for the few seconds of warping, however you have no guarantee that anyone will be at the belt to attack.
This runs to two problems:
1. everyone will be hitting the scan button every 5 seconds.
2. This is a game between the carebears and the attackers. The carebares need to be able to get away. Its not like they are going to be able to defend themselves from an attacking gang.
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Shnergin
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Posted - 2008.06.01 23:33:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Shnergin on 01/06/2008 23:36:01
@ Goumindong
I did read the post that you linked to, but that post indicated that the current local functionality should be included in the scanner. Meaning that you could see both WHAT ships are out there as well as WHO is piloting each. I don't think people should know who is in a ship or if a ship is empty simply by finding it on the directional scanner.
Also, while fixing the problems with cloaking and log-outs as a means of escape will be helpful, it does not mean that local can remain unchanged. People will simply dock at a station or warp out of the system through a gate. I don't think this is a good enough solution. Miners/NPCers shouldn't be alerted to pirates in a system until they can find them on a scanner, and then they can run if they want.
When I rat, I never use a cloak/log-out to get me out of trouble. I rat in a system where unknowns are constantly docked at a station or passing through, but I do it safely by scanning every 30 seconds. I can tell who is simply hauling stuff to POSs or who is mining. I can also tell who is a pirate, because I align when I see a possible pirate ship on the scanner. If they warp in, I warp out, and I get to see who the pirate actually is. This system isn't fool-proof, but it is fun. It would just be a little funner without the intel provided by local.
Edit: Oh, and it was a Rapier that I caught sneaking up on me. He must not have been actively using cloak, or didn't want to risk not being able to re-cloak if he ran into me on warp in. He did have a cloak, because I saw him do it while we were in the same belt.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.02 00:11:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Goumindong
Nope, they do not when they are cloaked. Are you sure it was a force recon and not a combat recon you were looking at?
If you read the link you will understand why you can't just let cloaking ships show up on the scanner even in that manner.
Any mechanic that replaces local needs to have pretty much the same functionality as local does currently.
You need to be able to know who is in system and you need to be able track them down and kill them, if you do not, risk is increased. People will blob up, gate camps will become more powerful as will traps of all sort. Combat will become more scarce as people are more hesitant to engage without clear superiority and larger as people cling to numbers for security.
The problems associated with local have little to nothing to do with the mechanic itself, but the mechanics that allow you to run from combat. Specifically cloaking and logging off. Fix the problems associated with running and you fix all the complaints about the local channel.
Quote:
On the topic of surprise attacks, it's entirely possible under my proposed changes to sneak up on an NPCer/miner in an uncloaked ship by NOT scanning for it, and simply warping to a belt that is out of scan range and hoping to get lucky. You'll only show up on the NPCer/miner's scanner for the few seconds of warping, however you have no guarantee that anyone will be at the belt to attack.
This runs to two problems:
1. everyone will be hitting the scan button every 5 seconds.
2. This is a game between the carebears and the attackers. The carebares need to be able to get away. Its not like they are going to be able to defend themselves from an attacking gang.
What you're saying is that with perfect intel, you'll have better intel. I agree, you will, but I'm not sure that it's necessary for the game or desirable either. I don't mind the idea that people should have to work a little bit in order to scan their system, nor do I mind the idea of a covert fleet having the ability to possibly get by you. The solo pilot in a Force Recon damn well ought to be able to sneak by me to open a cyno behind the front lines. It shouldn't be automatic, but it should be possible with a bit of luck.
That said, one thing you do have a point on is that people will just spam the scan button all the time. As such, the scanner window should have an auto-repeat button, to lower the amount of input the player needs to provide for reconnaissance. Also, the ability to sort the data in a useful manner, and perhaps even audio notification filters for when something you want to be notified of comes up.
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Fix the forums! |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.02 00:26:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Shnergin
but that post indicated that the current local functionality should be included in the scanner
No, that post highlighted the problems involved in doing that. That doing so would cause just those problems you are talking about. It was a response to Mindstar suggesting just that, and was showing him what would happen.
If you did implement that functionality well then what would be the point of removing local(besides making hostile/friendly/neutral counts even easier)? It would be entirely for the purpose of making the mechanic "feel right".
Quote:
Also, while fixing the problems with cloaking and log-outs as a means of escape will be helpful, it does not mean that local can remain unchanged. People will simply dock at a station or warp out of the system through a gate. I don't think this is a good enough solution. Miners/NPCers shouldn't be alerted to pirates in a system until they can find them on a scanner, and then they can run if they want.
If they dock in a station then take the station. If they go to a POS, siege the POS. If they jump through a gate follow them and kill them. If its low-sec or high-sec, camp them in.
If you aren't willing to jump through a gate, siege a station, siege a POS, or scan them down in a safe spot then they should "win" that engagement.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.02 00:45:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
What you're saying is that with perfect intel, you'll have better intel. I agree, you will, but I'm not sure that it's necessary for the game or desirable either.
No it might not be. But I am not saying that. I am saying that reducing the amount of intelligence will undoubtedly be a bad thing.
Coverts already have the ability to move through space. That it is not perfectly undetected is simply a reflection that is is a game played by humans against humans and not one played by humans against computers[as much as some peoples intelligence seems to be artificial at points]
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Buck Starchaser
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Posted - 2008.06.02 07:20:00 -
[12]
[No Support]
One of the most fundimental needs in a multiplayer game is that you need to know when you are playing with other people. It's what makes a patroll go to the next system and a mining barge warp. There should be no effort in finding out if I can interact with others in the curent system. Not having the thrill of expectation when a player of an oposing team is around just ruins the whole idea of multiplayer or makes it too stressfull if you could be pounced on without a reasonable chance of warning. If I'm searching each system on a patroll route just to find out if anyone is playing eve in the area then too much of the game is now devoted to determining if there is a game to be played. Any feature that gives the feeling of being alone negates the entire concept of a multiplayer game.
The only real problem with people knowing I've entered system is that it's easy to exploit local and log off or warp/cloak. A 5 minute dissapear timer on logging off and perhaps a 'cloak doesn't work so good' timer if someones hull was recently ionized from taking dammage in any kind of combat would seem to solve all the most reasonable complaints about local. Simply "I want to sneek up on everyone that isn't scanning like a maniac" does not hold any water.
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Mr Stark
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Posted - 2008.06.04 08:49:00 -
[13]
I agree that something needs to be done about local channel, how about a delay on appearing in local, say 10 seconds and also cloaked ships dont appear on local unless the pilot speaks. That would allow stealth ships to enter the system and cloak without detection, they would then need to stay close to entry point until they know where they are going, then de cloak to warp to wherever they are going thereby becoming visible and in so giving at least a short warning to everyone in system that you are there.
A cloaked ship should be undetectable, ie you shouldnt know it is there! With you appearing in local, everyone knows your there. However possibly some sort of advanced scanner could be implemented that can detect cloaked ships, maybe just for recons or something, since they are supposed to be intel gathering ships.
But anyway everyone just appearing in local channel is something i believe should change in some way.
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Joshua Newborn
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Posted - 2008.06.04 08:57:00 -
[14]
/signed
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Nariana Verex
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.06.04 14:29:00 -
[15]
The only person I want removed from local is myself, on my own screen. Yes. I know I am in the system. I keep mistaking myself for a neutral and going on wild goose chases to hunt it down. 
Do the right thing. Don't leave shuttles in space. |
staiph
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Posted - 2008.06.04 16:09:00 -
[16]
/signed
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Windjammer
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Posted - 2008.06.04 19:18:00 -
[17]
Not supported. The proposed changes to local give hunters more advantage and the hunted less. Local performing as an intelligence gathering tool is a perfectly valid game mechanic. Mission runners, miners, etc., have plenty to do without having to worry about constantly scanning for hostiles. Even with things as they are, I've seen Vaga's and other fast ships enter a local system in 0.0, warp to miners, pop the miners and leave the system before the miner can move or defending combat vessels can respond. Eliminating the early warning local can give would make this situation absurd.
Look at local as a constantly running scanner everyone has and everyone benefits from.
Regards,
Windjammer
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.06.25 19:58:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Razin on 25/06/2008 19:58:34
I support removing the intel function from the Local channel, provided the ship's scanner gets improved to provide better than currently available info, and even "Local-like" info but at a very limited range.
This is basically the tradeoff that CCP Greyscale was talking about in this thread and that Goumindong is just not able to comprehend.
...
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Dev Rom
Masterminds Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:09:00 -
[19]
If we imagine the local as to the range at wich our own ship-radio can hear, that system simply hear the space void. If noone speak on-air, you don't hear anything but space-noise. If you speak your voice thorugh the system, your words appear, but NOT the list of people, only the single phrase you spoke, not the list. It is stupid.
So, I agree to eliminate local-intel.
Maybe the stargates themselves spread across the system the +1/-1 access/exit ships (not the type, nor the pilot), so you may know how many pilots been there (mmm and the jump bridges? mmm).
I am not your carpet ride, I am the sky.. |
Fahtim Meidires
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.31 00:45:00 -
[20]
Not supported because this:
Originally by: Windjammer
Not supported. The proposed changes to local give hunters more advantage and the hunted less. Local performing as an intelligence gathering tool is a perfectly valid game mechanic. Mission runners, miners, etc., have plenty to do without having to worry about constantly scanning for hostiles. Even with things as they are, I've seen Vaga's and other fast ships enter a local system in 0.0, warp to miners, pop the miners and leave the system before the miner can move or defending combat vessels can respond. Eliminating the early warning local can give would make this situation absurd.
Look at local as a constantly running scanner everyone has and everyone benefits from.
Regards,
Windjammer
I agree. Local can stay as it is, although it would be nice if CCP wrote a Backstory Scientific Article on this omnipotent system scanner that can determine pilot identity from ship signature (if only for rp reasons).
Zis would be a fair compromise, no? Just say it. I like crepes.
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